We are developing the social individualist meta-context for the future. From the very serious to the extremely frivolous... lets see what is on the mind of the Samizdata people.

Samizdata, derived from Samizdat /n. - a system of clandestine publication of banned literature in the USSR [Russ.,= self-publishing house]

If you want Pride you must allow the cry of “Shame!”

The Daily Mail shows a video in which

Muslim woman wearing a niqab shouts ‘shame on all of you despicable people’ in shocking homophobic rant at Pride march in London

This is the shocking moment a Muslim woman spits homophobic abuse at a reveller on a Pride march in east London.

The niqab-wearing woman was filmed screaming ‘shame on you’ to a woman draped in the LGBT rainbow flag during the rally on Hoe Street, Walthamstow, yesterday.

She screeches ‘God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve’ while a marshal in a high-vis jacket moves in to shield the clearly shaken Pride marcher.

The video was shared on Twitter by Yusuf Patel who wrote: ‘Disgusting homophobic abuse at those on Waltham Forest Pride today.

The report continues,

The Walthamstow arm of the Metropolitan Police said officers are investigating and branded the abuse a hate crime.

The force tweeted: ‘We are aware of footage circulating on social media of abuse directed at those taking part in the Waltham Forest Pride event and enquiries are underway.

‘Abusing someone because of their sexual orientation or gender identity is a hate crime.

Put aside the question of the direction in which your first impulse of sympathy might fall, and consider whether there is any objective reason to say that the Muslim woman is aggressing against the Pride marcher rather than vice versa – or neither. The Mail writer says that the Muslim woman “spits homophobic abuse” at the Pride marcher, but she does not literally spit. It cannot have been pleasant to have been on the receiving end of that tirade, but all she ultimately did was vehemently tell the marcher that she thought they ought to be ashamed of their sexuality. The very purpose of the Pride parades, as the name indicates, is for the participants to declare that they are not ashamed of their sexuality. To that end the Pride marchers went – proudly wrapped in their rainbow flags – down Hoe Street, Walthamstow, where they knew full well that many of the inhabitants would deeply disapprove of them. (I used to live in Walthamstow, just off Hoe Street. It is not a “Muslim area” as such, but there are many Muslims there.) The law allows Pride parades to do this, just as the law allows Orange Order parades in Northern Ireland to carry their flags through Catholic areas.

The current Establishment would like to ban the Orange Order march and arrest the Muslim woman for protesting against the LGBT Pride march. In my childhood it would have been the other way round. I would not be surprised to see the cycle return to something like its starting point (although perhaps with the roles of the protected national causes and religions played by different actors) before I die. Or, just a thought, we could let everyone speak.

28 comments to If you want Pride you must allow the cry of “Shame!”

  • Pat

    Why is anyone shocked to discover that Muslims don’t like homosexuality? Wait till they find out that not all Muslims are peaceful! Or anything else about Islam.
    Don’t tell me that the great and the good have been defending a belief system without first finding out what the actual beliefs are.

  • the other rob

    I have been saying for some time that the current alliance between the Marxists and the Islamists is a modern day version of the Molotv-Ribbentrop pact. Each side fully intends to stab the other in the back, once the common enemy (us) is vanquished and each side knows in its heart that it will surely be the stabber and not the stabee.

  • Gavin Longmuir

    Let’s celebrate our sexuality by parading down “Hoe” Street. Oh! I must bite my tongue! 🙂

  • Surellin

    A quote from Mercutio might be apposite.

  • bobby b

    A party based on victimhood can be uncomfortable when the members turn out to be each others’ victims.

  • Annie Nonny-Mouse

    Looks like the PAINs (Poly-Acronymic Intersectional Narcissists) are about to discover that Newton’s Third Law of Motion has universal applicability.

  • the current alliance between the Marxists and the Islamists is a modern day version of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact (The other rob, August 2, 2019 at 1:17 pm)

    The breakdown of that one went well for us, though sadly for many, by causing the bulk of WWII’s casualties to be either people obeying Stalin or people obeying Hitler, with the associated carnage far from our shores. Poor Poland had a really rotten time, stuck between the two (who could still make tacit pacts to crush Poles, as in the 1944 Warsaw uprising), and while Hitler ended shooting himself, Stalin didn’t (though, according to Khrushchev, “It was during the war that Stalin began to be not quite right in the head”, which is very funny in a grim sort of a way), but we got a much easier war than we might have had out of it. Regrettably, their two modern day equivalents are – only too obviously – closer to home, so when one stabs the other, our experience may be more Polish.

    Another thought occurs. Back in 2008, I was obliged to be grateful to Nick Griffen (leader of the British National Party and not someone I was particularly wanting to be grateful to) for winning his jury trial against a hate speech prosecution. Labour home secretary Jack Straw complained that obviously they had to make the laws tougher, but I was aware that in a UK where it was still not quite a walk-in-the-park for the home secretary to put Nick Griffin away, us ordinary people who might be taped uttering an un-PC thought were a bit safer. It is doubtless my revolting islamophobia that explains why this muslim woman is not right at the very head of the list of those I long to feel grateful to, but I am obliged to wish her the very best of luck resisting any charge attempted against her.

  • CaptDMO

    At first I just gave up on the dandelions , then an invasive species of crab grass infested the lawn.
    I’ve heard they’re considering carrying Kudzu down at the garden center, due to some DEMAND.
    I TRIED to tame the Sumac by cutting down, and putting just the most offensive ones through the wood chipper,
    but THAT just made it worse-you see, with the direction that the wind was blowing THAT day……..

  • neonsnake

    Or, just a thought, we could let everyone speak.

    Without criticism?

  • Natalie Solent (Essex)


    Without assault. A bystander shouting at a person taking part in a parade is not assault.

    There are sometimes edge cases where a police officer or security guard or just a concerned citizen might be justified in intervening if it looks like an assault is imminent. But the police and the law seemed well able to cope with that level of ambiguity for the first half of my life.

    I think the marshal in the hi-vis who placed himself between the Muslim woman and the Pride marcher she was shouting at did a good job. He symbolically protected the marcher in an non-aggressive way. What I object to is that the woman in a niqab has been all but labelled as having committed a “hate crime” by the police. (I say “all but” because their statement was a masterpiece of ambiguity.)

    Although how they think they are going to identify her is a bit of a mystery!

  • Julie near Chicago

    “Or, just a thought, we could let everyone speak.”

    Good god, Natalie, what are you thinking! You’ve gone over to the Dark Side for sure, and you forgot to take your brain with you when you left!

    It’s forty days in the stocks for you, lass, and a public flogging on the first and fortieth days.

    Sounds very radical and extreme to me.
    😆 😈 😆 😈 😆 😈 😆

    . . .

    Couple of random thoughts.

    The Adam-&-Steve crack sounds like a one-liner from a standup-comedy routine, or a TV sitcom. If the woman is really a hard-line Muslim, I wonder if she realizes that she’s still absorbed some of the Anglo-cum-American culture.

    It’s one thing to show that you are not ashamed of being a member of a group which is sometimes considered worthy of contempt for one reason or another, good bad or indifferent. It’s another thing altogether to take pride in the simple fact that you are a member of that group, i.e. that you share the group’s defining characteristics.

    –Oh dear, I see there’s lots of room to write a 43-volume treatise on the topic. I shall desist. And thousands cheer!

  • Julie near Chicago

    This time, the spam-detector didn’t like my car-count. I was informed that I must try again. Per the instructions, I backed up a page and re-submitted the comment. Didn’t get the photo grid, only the error message.

    Went back to the OP page, pasted in the comment (whose text I had cleverly copied), and hit “Post Comment.” Lo, no Captcha test, just a nicely posted comment.

    Does WP allow only that one bot-defeating method? The one based on goofy-looking letters is easier to make sense of, for those of us whose sight is not the best or whose ability to distinguish among minivans, SUVs, and “cars” is not 100% reliable.

  • Rob Fisher

    Julie it’s annoying that the spam detector is making you count cars. It is supposed to be clever enough to not hassle real people at all. Will keep an eye on it.

  • bobby b

    “It’s one thing to show that you are not ashamed of being a member of a group which is sometimes considered worthy of contempt for one reason or another, good bad or indifferent. It’s another thing altogether to take pride in the simple fact that you are a member of that group, i.e. that you share the group’s defining characteristics.”

    You sort of lost me here.

    Do you mean that it’s fine for me to not be ashamed of being Norwegian, or Islamic, but if I actually feel pride in it, I’ve transgressed?

  • Julie near Chicago

    Rob, thanks much for your note. Appreciated. :>)

    . . .


    No. I’m saying that shame and pride are two distinctly different concepts, and that you cannot use one of them to substitute for the other.

    You could be ashamed, proud, neither, or both at the same time, of your Norwegian ancestry. [Sic the bad grammar, notes the Inner Editrix.]


    My point in the instant case, however, is that it seems (to this admittedly distinctly heterosexual female) unlikely that anyone is actively proud of the fact of his or her homosexuality.

    (From here on I revert to the longstanding rule of English in which the pronoun “he” is the pronoun of unspecified or inclusive gender. This is an extremely useful convention and no one of any kind of sexuality should feel demeaned or excluded by being specifically INcluded = NOT-excluded. So if I say that “when a person is homosexual, he…” I am specifically not referring only to male homosexuals.)

    I can certainly understand how a homosexual, or a person with some Negro ancestry, or a woman, or a person who grew up in truly grinding poverty which taught him how to make do under really dreadful circumstances, might be proud of claiming inclusion in the demeaned or once-demeaned group because, perhaps without realizing the psychology of it himself, he’s made it as a human adult who can cope with life (as a rule), or perhaps even enjoy some sort of worldly success.

    In such a case, he’s not so much proud of being Norwegian as of having, despite a general prejudice against Norwegians, become a successful carpenter (that pergola!) capable of supplying his wife & kiddies of three hots and cots + 1 double or king-size bed AND a roof — OR a wealthy celebrity, like Harrison Ford. (Not that I have the slightest idea of whether either Han Solo or John Book, let alone Indy, has a drop of Norwegian blood.)

    Of course, you might also feel pride in being a member of the tribe “Norwegians” per se, even if you’re really mostly an American mutt with a little Norwegian blood. Many of us feel a teensy bit proud of our ancestry, a little bit special (in a good way) because of it. I’ve always felt secretly a little bit Special because I’m 1/4 Spanish — and not only that, which is already fine, but also at least partly of pure Castilian Spanish, thankyouverymuch, no admixture of this mongrel Moorish blood!

    But see, here in Illinois farmland in the ’40s and ’50s, there was almost no one who “was Spanish.” I felt exotic! (And it was the hayday of all those wonderful musicals with Spanish ladies dancing or making goo-goo-eyes at the guy, or whatever … romantic. Dolores del Río! Katy Jurado! Dorothy Lamour! The only other one I ever knew of in NW Illinois was the wife of our chiropractor, Dr. MacNee. *g*

    But that sort of pride in your tribe rests on your thinking well of your tribe in general. And to some extent, I do think we see ourselves as extensions of our tribe(s). I’m also rather set up about my 3/4-English ancestry. *g*

    But it seems to me still that one’s not likely to be proud specifically and solely of being homosexual (or LGBTQxx), although one might well be proud of oneself for having gained normal human respect despite against the odds, being a member of a group whose members were not, at least in the past, respected formally in the larger society.

    From the other side of the fence, I don’t respect homosexuals etc. because they’re homosexual etc. I respect them because they’re human beings like everybody else, and to the degree that they don’t demand or expect special perks because of their particular kind of unusualness. I respect them as individuals, when they’re civil and keep their hands to themselves — in the libertarian sense that they’re not thieves or axe-murderers.

    Really, maybe that indicates what I was trying to get at. Still, I’m on a roll, so….


    (I can well imagine a situation or society in which a particular person, or quite possibly a great many individuals, had great respect for others who were engaged in “the love that dare not speak its name.” In fact I’d bet it was rather common in the Edwardian era. Oscar Wilde (well, died just before Edwardian Era) and all that…. Also, by then homosexuality had acquired a certain cachet. Hm. Something to think about….)

    I suppose the most charitable interpretation of the Rainbow-Pride march is that it’s a statement of “We’ve come a long way, baby!” Which, were it so, would be a good thing: Have at it, kids! Unfortunately, it’s all mixed up with PC and political manipulations and the saintliness of the Victim Group and “Now WE’RE on top and WE’RE making the rules.”

    But it’s also possible to see it, at this stage, as a way of rubbing the noses of your (purported) enemies and detractors in the dirt.


    Boy! and that’s only part of the Long Form answer. Are you still awake?

  • Fred Z

    “she thought they ought to be ashamed of their sexuality”

    No, she thought to be ashamed of acting on their abnormal sexuality, or perhaps, doing so in public.

    I’m fine with all abnormal sexual urges from homos to trannies and beyond.

    I’m not fine with any of them, as well as heteros, prancing about declaiming “I wank/fcuk/suck/et. endless lubricious cetera, therefore I am wonderful”.

    People who define themselves by where, why and how they use their sexual apparatus are loser assholes.

  • I’m fine with all abnormal sexual urges from homos to trannies and beyond. I’m not fine with any of them, as well as heteros, prancing about declaiming “I wank/fcuk/suck/et. endless lubricious cetera, therefore I am wonderful”.

    Just for info, there are those of us who like guys but keep our private lives to ourselves, not because we are ashamed or whatever this Muslim women wants us to feel, but because we have no desire to be tarred with the same brush as the degenerates of Pride.

    Sure, being 18 and wandering around in nothing but a multicoloured pair of spandex undies might seem a good idea at the time, but nothing lasts forever, except orgiastic photos on the internet.

    As for the supposed “Amity” between Muslims and SJW’s, that is never going to last. Since both sides are just virtue signalling “Diversity is our strength” until they get into power, something which is never going to happen.

    The standoff between the LGBTQ+ brigade and the Muslims in Birmingham, UK over enforced gay propaganda to pre-teens illustrated the reality of that.

    So yes, Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact is about right and based upon the first cracks, it looks like the LGBTQ+ brigade are going to be the losers, simply because they have no abiding faith.

    When the newspaper headlines are full of a “supposedly” transperson (I a bloke in a dress) with a history of inappropriate contact with children running around Canada telling employees of ladies establishments to “Shave my female balls you bigot”.

    That’s not the foundation of a winning tale.

  • bobby b

    “People who define themselves by where, why and how they use their sexual apparatus are loser assholes.”

    OTOH, if the entire world decides to define me and excoriate me according to my whiteness or some other characteristic that I can’t change and didn’t choose, I may well decide to embrace that characteristic, and take pride in it, and flaunt it, even if that characteristic doesn’t really define me to myself, just as a way to tell them all to bite me.

  • Albion’s Blue Front Door

    As someone with the name Steve, I object most strongly to being dragged into this kerfuffle. Please leave me out of it. Thanks.

    Also, for clarity, I know no one called Adam. I hope this helps.

  • Penseivat

    How does anyone know the shouted was a woman? It could have been anyone who doesn’t like homosexuals and has a feminine sounding voice. Wearing a black, cotton, post box is the perfect disguise. I would imagine that, in donning one of these, you could more or less do or say anything you want.

  • There’s only one way to handle this sort of clash of cultures:



  • Roué le Jour

    Agree with what you’re saying but surely the LGBTQ+ will be the losers simply because there are a lot fewer of them come voting time?

  • but surely the LGBTQ+ will be the losers simply because there are a lot fewer of them come voting time?

    Difficult one to call. The number of LGBTQ+ will only increase by definitional scope creep since the “B” and “Q” covers a lot of ground between teen curiosity and those for whom sexual conquest is more important than gender stereotypes.

    I’ve always viewed the genuinely gay number of the male population as being around 1-3% and reject the claim of higher percentages.

    Still, I think the silent majority would prefer a world where what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own bedrooms is a private matter rather than the Islamic “throw them off tall buildings” approach.

    So while Muslim immigration remains relatively low and concentrated in specific areas, I doubt we’ll see things swinging in their direction any time soon. Plus, racist or not, there is a feeling that despite the “racist” aspect of immigration, it will be tackled post-BRExit simply because there is no justification for adding strain on communities and to import welfare / housing soaking immigrants from third world shitholes just to vote Labour.

    The death of the UK Labour Party can’t come soon enough in my opinion, since that will remove a platform for SJW-types and hopefully justify the Conservatives going back to traditional economy-first principles rather than all of this Blue Labour shite that David Cameron introduced.

    When an actual Islamic Party candidate gets elected outside of Bradford / East London, then I’ll get worried. Can’t see that happening in my lifetime though.

  • Slartibartfarst

    Ho hum.How tedious.
    Please stop stoking the “outrage” fire.

  • Rich Rostrom

    Julie NC: “…not Adam and Steve” has been a fairly common anti-homosexual jibe for years, starting about 1980. (But only in the US; unknown in Britain, sez Google Ngrams.)

    I recall hearing it from social-conservative black ministers, for instance.

    Which makes me wonder: was this a false-flag action? The shouter was masked, and used this particular phrase which is little-known in Britain. I could see someone resentful of the abuses inflicted by the Red-Green Axis (in this case, Lavender-Green), doing this stunt to provoke trouble among them. Is there audio? Did the shouter have a recognizable accent?

  • Julie near Chicago

    Ha! Rich, I was sure I recognized the Style, if not the saying itself.

    Good question. I don’t know how much the Brits’ or our versions of “the Right” or even anti-Islam folks go in for False Flags, but it’s worth thinking about.

  • Mr Black

    This brings me great joy. I cannot wait until the various leftist factions are ripping out each others throats. Let there be more homosexual and muslim clashes until they are both living in fear of each other.

  • neonsnake

    Let there be more homosexual and muslim clashes until they are both living in fear of each other.

    Is there a prize for filling out my Samizdata bingo card?