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The Chinese-Russian alliance is a Clear and Present Danger to the West

The joint Chinese-Russian naval exercises presently going on in the northern Pacific are presented as normal “we do this every year” – but they are clearly an anti American move, threatening Japan and in support of North Korea. Although perhaps not the present dictator of North Korea – the Chinese-Russian alliance may have someone else in mind for this role.

From Europe (the Baltic States, and the Ukraine, and everywhere else), to the Middle East (the joint Chinese-Russian alliance with the Islamic Republic of Iran and associated irregular forces such as the “Party of God” in Lebanon and Syria), to the Far East and the Pacific, the alliance of the People’s Republic of China and Mr Putin’s Russia is a Clear and Present Danger to the West.

And everyone, apart from powerless people, is ignoring this danger. Mr Putin is not going anywhere – and he was trained, over many years, to hate the West – not for ideological reasons (he is not a Marxist), but simply as an opponent who-must-be-defeated (the endless agitprop attacks from “RT” against the West show the obsession of Mr Putin). And the regime in China is thought of as a wonderful business opportunity, in spite of the fact that this mercantalist regime has run up massive trade surpluses for many years now – crippling the West with debt which the West has used to finance CONSUMPTION not productive investment. The People’s Republic of China’s true nature as an extremely aggressive nationalistic (Han Chinese ethnic supremacist) dictatorship bent on military modernisation and endless expansion taking-over-ever-more-lands-and-seas, is still not really understood. The PRC is not a big version of Taiwan – it is a ruthless dictatorship, bent upon expansion.

Of course the rising power of China is not in the long term interests of Russia – but Mr Putin is myopic, his training has given him the view that the West is the great enemy of Russia. He is focused on this mythical threat – and ignores the real long term threat, the People’s Republic of China. Indeed he is locked in an alliance with the PRC against the West.

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52 comments to The Chinese-Russian alliance is a Clear and Present Danger to the West

  • PapayaSF

    It seems to me that if the Chinese were smart, they would not object to a unified Korea under South Korean control. Let the South spend resources dealing with the North the way West Germany had to integrate East Germany. Yes, that would put a “capitalist” power on their border, and reduce opportunities for sanctions-busting graft, but the alternative is a war, a flow of refugees, and maybe Japan and South Korea deciding to get nukes.

  • America is a threat to America. Russia and China are more naturally enemies, despite their respective Communist regimes. But USG foreign policy has been akin to a bully in the schoolyard. And so far, no one has permitted Trump to stray from the anti-Russian script.

  • John K

    The USSR was Upper Volta with rockets. Russia is Burkina Faso with rockets.

    China is indeed a mercantilist dictatorship. Whether it can survive is a moot point. The empty cities and vast overproduction of steel point to massive misallocation of resources.

    The USA and the rest of the west do have a huge trade defecit with China. They send us stuff, and we send them promises to pay them back sometime. Maybe that time will never come, maybe the Fed will print a trillion dollar bill to “pay” it, who knows?

    Putin has taken Russia down the rabbit hole of a miserable, nationalistic dictatorship. That is very sad for the Russian people, but they are not a threat.

    The Chinese have a lot of money and are throwing their weight around, but we may find that their authoritarian state collapses, as it has throughout history, before too long.

    The EU will continue to contemplate its navel.

    We live in interesting times.

  • Nicholas (Unlicenced Joker) Gray

    Paul, it’s all very well to complain, but you never tell us your solution. Should we nuke Beijing BEFORE or AFTER the convention? We need practical answers!

  • The Wobbly Guy

    but we may find that their authoritarian state collapses, as it has throughout history, before too long.

    China has a long history of suffering tremendously internally and yet still remaining cohesive politically. The idea of an unified state and stability above all else is strong in the Han psyche and culture. It takes a lot of ruin and even external forces to collapse any Chinese dynasty, and I believe that Chinese dynasties tend to tenaciously hold on even after events and conditions that would have already destroyed most Western states. Usually it takes the form of a rebellion by a powerful general, and I’m not sure such conditions exist today.

    If even the Great Leap Forward (hah!) and the Cultural Revolution can’t break the PRC, what can?

    China seems to be throwing their money and influence around in their Belt project, and I think they are setting up to be resource exploiters as much as possible to fuel their economic growth at the expense of other states.

  • Nicholas (Unlicenced Joker) Gray

    The difference is that the Chinese people have alternatives now. They know China is not the center of the Earth. I wonder if that knowledge will hasten the decay of the state?

  • The Wobbly Guy

    They know China is not the center of the Earth. I wonder if that knowledge will hasten the decay of the state?

    From conversations I have with PRC citizens, both elites and normal folks, they seem to believe they can make China the center of the universe again. They have huge contempt for the West and most non-chinese and believe their way is better. A lot of elites are immigrating to the US and Canada, but I think they never lost that inner belief that the chinese, if not China, are destined to rule.

    Time will tell.

  • mickc

    Well, if America’s attention is engaged by China, it may possibly stop supporting ISIS and generally causing mayhem in the Middle East.
    The dying American Empire, as with all dying empires, is thrashing around creating chaos for others whilst expending blood and treasure trying to prevent the inevitable decline.
    Trump was right; the USA should have an America First policy and effectively become isolationist. Its a pity he has been got at and reversed that view.

  • Jacob

    “America is a threat to America.”

    Absolutely.

    America’s tensions with China come from America’s opposition to China’s moves in the South China Sea. That is none of America’s business, and America should have stayed away from this conflict.

    America’s tensions with Russia come from the opposition to the Crimea annexation and the Ukraine border conflict. Again, an issue that America needs not interfere in.

    Another harmful American policy was the attempt to topple Assad in Syria (supporting opposition rebels). America should have stayed out of this insane war started by Turkey and Saudi Arabia.

    Paul is wrong when he puts all the blame for these conflicts only on Russia and China.

  • Watchman

    Why do people keep thinking Russia is a major military power? What would they use to intervene in Korea – the Pacific fleet? My understanding (and a quick websearch) suggests this has less than ten surface ships, with the largest being a single cruiser (so not even a battleship) and no carriers. They do have naval aviation and submarines, but almost entirely of a soviet vintage. I wouldn’t claim any expertise, but it appears the Japanese self-defence forces are easily the match of this group.

    To put things in perspective, in effect the US has almost as many aircraft carriers in the Pacific as the Russians normally have warships.

    The Chinese fleet is bigger and much more modern to be fair (but we are still talking smaller than either of the US 3rd or 7th fleets that are around the Pacific…). But the Russian contribution to any fighting would be so minor as to effectively leave the Chinese fleet as the opposition anyway.

    For all those of you focussed on Russia, just remember their GDP per capita is appaling (and historically most effective nations at war have had higer GDP per capita – because you have to have the ability to fund your military), their military spending is less than the UK’s in absolute value, and they have a tendency to rely on soviet-era designs and equipment due to a lack of a suitable industrial base to build new stuff. China at least can produce new things and has a rising GDP per capita, but frankly screwing up the economy by fighting your major export markets would be a strange choice. I can’t see Chinese leaders (other than the rabid army faction) wanting to risk crashing the entire system they are managing for Kim and his nuclear missles myself.

  • bob sykes

    Gorbachev, Yeltsin, Medvedev and Putin all at one time or another called for a united Europe from “Lisbon to Vladivostok,” their phrase. They wanted Russian membership in both the EU and NATO. That call was squelched by the US who did not want a rival power in NATO, and whose foreign policy, controlled by neocons, pursued the destruction of the remaining Russian state.

    So, the US is, in fact, the long term mortal enemy of Russia, and Russia in its weakened condition it needs allies. By default that is China, and China is using Russia’s predicament to establish MacKinder’s World Island. and Russia is helping.

    China’s OBOR and Russia’s SCO grow apace and increasingly integrate the Eurasian landmass into a Sino-Russian alliance. Right now, OBOR and SCO comprise 50% of the world population and 25% of its GDP. In six years or so, China’s economy is expected to be 50% larger than the US economy. Its manufacturing sector is already much larger than the US’ and very much more comprehensive. Not too long from now, China alone will have absolute military superiority (naval, air and ground) in the Western Pacific, and the US will be reduced to a second class world power.

    All this talk about Russia and China being natural enemies is nonsense. They are natural allies against the aggressive, expansionist American world empire.

  • Bruce

    I suspect that the “joint” Russian / Chinese “exercises” are a sort of “dance”, in which each partner sizes up the other.

    EVERY parameter of performance of every bit of equipment will be minutely logged by participants on BOTH teams.

    The Russians have actual memories of war, and so do the Chinese.

    It is the ANALYSIS of these “memories” that is important, to both teams.

    I have no interest in living out my days a la “On the Beach”.

    I suspect that most sane Russians and Chinese feel the same.

    However, tradition and “Kultcha” are powerful things.

  • Paul Marks

    Most of the comments are somewhat depressing – as they tend to ignore the truth.

    The American government, under President Bush, desperately tried to make friends with Mr Putin (so did various elements in the Obama years. Mr Putin does not want to be friends, RT makes this perfectly clear – it has been pumping out anti Western “Social Justice” propaganda in relation to all parts of the world, for many years. That some “conservatives” and “libertarians” do not see this, indeed go on to “RT”, is incredibly depressing.

    As for people who do not believe that Putin’s Russia is a major (and hostile) military (military – not economic) power – well you are wrong, and that is all there is to it.

    “Will China survive”

    The People’s Republic of China does indeed have severe problems – but the United States may well have far worse problems, and the American political system does not allow a President (even if he or she wanted to) to effectively roll back the Welfare State and prevent de facto bankruptcy.

    A better question would be “will the United States survive?” – to which I can only say “I do not know”.

    As for those people who say that the falling of the world (the world) under tyranny is “no business of the United States”.

    Well you followers of the late Murray Rothbard, who would have handed the world to the Axis Powers (Nazi Germany and so on) and, if they did not want it, would have handed the world to the Marxists – under the lunatic notion that the United States was on some other planet and so what happened on planet Earth did not matter.

    If (if) you truly are Rothbardians there is nothing that I, or anyone else, can say to you – nothing that will make any difference. But it is fortunate that President Donald Trump is NOT a Rothbardian – i.e. is not under the delusion that the United States exists on another planet and what happens on the planet Earth does not matter.

    For the record, in case anyone does not know, the American military has been a falling (falling) share both of the budget and the American economy for 50 years – and much of the American military is desperately out-of-date with century old dry docks and failing equipment. Anyone who says or writes anything implying that the military or “wars”, rather than the ever growing American Welfare State, is the cause of the future de facto bankruptcy of the United States, is an utterly misguided person who deserves no-respect-what-so-ever.

    And the rest of the West?

    If America falls then the rest of the West can not stand (this is why I always felt that the glee that Dr Sean Gabb and his friends showed at the decline of the United States was somewhat misguided). No other Western nation has a military capable of standing up to the “weak” Putin’s Russia (if they are weak then, for example, the United Kingdom is nonexistent), and the ever growing power (and unlimited desire for conquest) of the People’s Republic of China.

    Neither Putin’s Russia or the People’s Republic of China are remotely interested in the number of “Dollars” spent on the military – what they are interested in is the actual military strength they have, both in numbers and in modern equipment and methods. That is how they measure a military (not in “Dollars”) and they are right to measure their military capacity in this way, not in “Dollars”.

    This will get worse over time – as especially the People’s Republic of China is playing a “long game”. Both Putin’s Russia and the PRC use such powers such as the Islamic Republic of Iran and the “Party of God” in Syria and Lebanon, to challenge the West – without risking themselves.

    As the West grows weaker and weaker – as the only power in the West worth considering, the United States of America, eventually faces the bankruptcy of the “Entitlement State”, and the collapse of the Credit Bubble financial system, and conflict between the various ethnic groups (whose mutual hostility is being fanned by the Frankfurt School of Marxism influenced education system and “mainstream” media), so the challenge of the People’s Republic of China and its allies will grow bolder and bolder.

    I still suspect that some people do not understand that without the United States of America the West (including the United Kingdom) can not stand – that the West would collapse so totally that even memory of its existence might fade and die. And I suspect that some people still do not understand what the true internal threats to the United States actually are – comforting themselves with absurd lies that “the military” and “wars” are the problem.

  • tomsmith

    Enlighten us, Oh Wise One

  • Watchman: For all those of you focussed on Russia, just remember their GDP per capita is appaling

    About the same as Italy, so, not all that impressive. Russia is a significant military power but a very, very brittle one.

    bob sykes: Gorbachev, Yeltsin, Medvedev and Putin all at one time or another called for a united Europe from “Lisbon to Vladivostok,” their phrase. They wanted Russian membership in both the EU and NATO. That call was squelched by the US who did not want a rival power in NATO

    Yeah it was totally the Yanks. The Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Latvians, Lithuanians etc. etc. etc. were utterly THRILLED with the idea of being back within the shadow of Moscow, if only those mean old Yanks had let them.

    Seriously, get a grip.

  • Empire is the problem- both parts, the wars, and the stupid entitlements at home. And this is a less well run empire, since we like to pretend we are not an empire. It would be much more effective to install a governor in Afghanistan and run the place more effectively than the average warlord can, while extracting resources to pay for it. I hear they’ve got some minerals and stuff, but we only appear to show up in order to protect the opium harvest.

    Of course, eventually empires fade. It would be best to do so gracefully. Rather than nuking North Korea, we could freak out both China, Russia, and NK- while making our military industrial complex happy- by selling South Korea and Japan nukes.

    But to date, USG seems hell bent on lurching around like a drunk, not self-reflective enough to understand other nations. And currently, the entire Democrat party is trying to sell this stupid idea that Russia hacked our elections. This is said on T.V. like it means something while all evidence points to the illegal stuff being voter fraud perpetrated by people who vote Democrat. New Hampshire appears to have gone for Hillary thanks to some shady crap. I will not be surprised to find enough illegal voters in California to declare Trump the actual winner of the popular vote.

  • Jacob

    “But to date, USG seems hell bent on lurching around like a drunk, not self-reflective enough to understand other nations.”

    Absolutely correct.

    For example:
    I don’t think China has expansionist tendencies, it never had, and if it tries something (militarily) they will face their neighbors: India, Japan, South Korea and… Russia.
    Paul’s warning sound to me as somewhat hysterical.

    The greatest threat to America is America and it’s malfunctioning society.

  • mickc

    Paul Marks
    As I recall Russia was helpful to the USA when the USA was stupid, or was it greedy, enough to get involved in Afghanistan.
    As for Russia in Syria, it is the USA which is financing and arming ISIS via Saudi Arabia. Presumably the USA is doing so in order that the Saudis support the petrodollar. My backing goes to Assad supported by Russia….at least there was stability when he was in control….as with Saddam and Gadaffi. The Wolfowitz Doctrine and the PNAC has caused chaos.
    And I struggle to see Russia as a huge threat…..it is broke, as many here point out
    The Yanks have cocked things up….massively. I wish they hadn’t but the grim reality is they are no longer John Wayne, but a set of carpetbaggers who have over-reached.

  • Although I’m much more of a long-term optimist than Paul, I sort-of agree that several comments in this thread are, if not “depressing”, at least a bit all over the place, suggesting a wide range of views of the international scene, some of which seem strange to me.

    Perry is right that Russia’s strength is brittle. China also has its problems. Sadly, so do we: nations that cringe from asserting themselves to the point that ISIS terrorists are a threat can be unreasonably pressured even by brittle enemies. The current situation is the well-foreseen product of 8 years of Obaman unrealism in foreign policy. For 8 years, the US has had a sign round its neck: “If there’s anything you thought of doing but were worried about how we’d react, now is the time to do it.” Trends and momentum thus started may not be stopped easily.

    However right this moment I’m more concerned about the liberties we may lose at the hands of our own chattering classes than at the hands of invading hordes of Russians and Chinese. I feel we are far from that, though closer than we need be to the kind of international jockeying that can diminish western prestige and so add to western malaise.

  • fcal

    Niall Kilmartin – September 22, 2017 at 6:38 pm.
    Exactly, I am also more concerned about the liberties, we may lose thanks to our home-grown inept mandarins than by invading (Far)-Eastern invaders. How about the taboo rich Islamization of our so-called multicultural society?

  • As I recall Russia was helpful to the USA when the USA was stupid, or was it greedy, enough to get involved in Afghanistan

    They sell arms to the Taliban, FFS

  • I don’t think China has expansionist tendencies, it never had

    Please explain their occupation of Tibet, or their encroachment on Indian territory (which have resulted in armed clashes in the past), or their armed clashes with Vietnam, or their laughable claims to the entire South China Sea.

  • Jacob

    Border disputes. There are always border disputes.

  • The big looming issue is the eventual dethroning of the dollar. Ideally USG sobers up and thinks about how to deal with that sanely. China wants to take over, but this is a bit like fighting the last war- we ought to be replace a fiat currency with something superior, and it looks like we might have some options. The decision may also be taken out of the hands of the nation-states entirely.

    But this is the real ‘threat’- that Russia, China, and many other countries want to end the dominance of the dollar. And given the life cycle of currency, we are about due for it to happen anyway.

  • mickc

    Perry,
    So Russia does what the USA does…..so what! Russia has not supported ISIS or the propagation of extreme Islam as the USA does via Saudi Arabia. In fact, Russia has been pretty succesful in suppressing it eg Chechnya.
    Which do you think it would more sensible to support? The one suppressing it….or the one helping to propagate it?
    And, of course, Al Quaeda is a creation of the USA….blowback of the most catastrophic sort.
    Get real, FFS!

  • Russia has not supported ISIS

    Sure, Russia just keeps trying to destabilise its neighbours in the Baltic, and is fighting a barely arms-length war in Ukraine, etc. Do you really think the eastern half of Europe is threatened by Islam? There is no ‘sensible’ reason to ever support Russia unless someone is on their payroll.

    And actually IS is mostly a creation of Erdoğan, a bright idea when he fell out with the Alawite Assad family. That said, I agree the Wahhabis created much of the metacontext that made all the Salafist/Takfiri crap underpinning Islamic State possible.

  • Paul Marks

    tomsmith – I should not need to “enlighten” you as I am only saying what you should already know (and which I think you do already know).

    As for the people who say that Mr Putin in Russia, or the regime that controls the People’s Republic of China are not hostile – or are not expansionist.

    Well you are wrong, and you know you are wrong.

    I recently had a little tiff with someone who said that people could not “deliberately not understand” – of course they can, it is called (in English slang) people being “bloody minded”. Nothing to do with killing people, just people refusing to make the basic effort to understand things (things they already actually know – but will not admit to knowing) and people who argue stuff they-know-not-to-be-true.

    Now one can spend one’s life arguing with “bloody minded” people who will argue that black is white, and that water is dry, and that 1+1=68.

    Or one can not spend one’s life not arguing with such people.

    I choose the latter.

    Although, if one wished to be super polite, one would say they were “playing Devil’s advocate” or “being a professional sceptic” rather than “they are being blood minded”. But I am not super polite – and I am not a great fan of David Hume (to put it mildly).

    I am interested in defending freedom – not engaging in endless debates with David Hume fans about whether the human person (the “I” – free will) even exists at all.

    And I am interested in defending the West against threats to its existence, internal and external, not engaging in endless debates with people who say our enemies are really misunderstood friends.

    Still less with people (again like Davy Hume) who regard the “Euthanasia of the Constitution” (for example the collapse if early 18th century Britain into a despotism like that of the Sun King) with indifference.

    As for Islam – Mr Putin’s people certainly support the Shia radicals of Iran and the “Party of God” in Lebanon and Syria (indeed they are in alliance with them – as is the PRC) and he has also quietly supported the SUNNI radicals when it has suited his purpose. In Chechnya (Mr Putin came to power via the wars there) he has actually set up an Islamist Sunni state – the old President of Chechnya was a Soviet Air Force General who was married to an Estonian. But that is long ago – first Putin made sure that the only opposition in Chechnya were radical Islamists (he did this by de facto cooperating with them to make sure that non nutter opposition groups were killed) and then he actually set up an Islamic state in the place under a puppet.

    Oh yes the Russians are beating up ISIS now – but a few years ago things were rather different. Many ISIS commanders came from Saddam’s old forces in Iraq (he turned to orthodox Islam in his old age – even donating his blood to print a special copy of the Koran) and in Syria the Shia government made some deals with ISIS against other rebel groups.

    It was in their interests for the most radical Sunni groups to replace the more moderate Sunni opposition groups – in order to discredit opposition in Syria in general.

    Of course both sides in these little deals were planning to cheat the other – but that is the way of these evil folk.

    Would I like peace and friendship with both the Russian and Chinese peoples?

    Of course I would.

    But that depends on the hostile Communist Party regime in China (which combines capitalist economics with Leninist politics – a lethal combination) falling – on China having an open political system like that of Taiwan (do not hold your breath for that).

    And Russia?

    Russian civilisation is a key part of Western Civilisation.

    Of course I want to see this wretched KGB man retire to a monastery somewhere and stop his plotting against the West.

    He is not even a Marxist – he is just plotting (and killing) because that is what he was trained to do.

    The Marxists (the university types in the West) at least what to replace us with a Marxist Utopia – a mad dream most certainly, but they have an objective.

    Mr Putin does not believe in the Marxist utopia – he is just attacking the West because that is what he does, that is what he was trained to do.

    He does it with no-real-objective. Nothing positive that he wants to create.

    It is just chess to him – just with real people and real blood.

    We are the opponent he was trained to destroy.

    Why?

    The “why” does not matter to him any more – if it ever did matter to him.

    It is like the mountain climber who was asked why he climbed mountains.

    “Because they are there” came the reply.

  • mickc

    Perry,
    So the USA arranges a coup in Ukraine to replace a duly elected President with a US puppet hostile to Russia,,,,and you seriously believe Russia won’t react? Nice planet you’re on….I prefer reality.
    As for Eastern Europe, presumably you’ve seen the pictures of Muslim refugees flooding into Hungary…but, of course, they won’t be any threat because they were all women and children…oh, err…no they were mainly young men.
    And presumably Russia fixed the US elections so Hillary lost?
    As for ISIS not being a US creation and supported by the US….
    And no, the reason to support Russia/Assad is because the alternative is much, much worse. So no, I’m not on the Russian payroll…but the reasons for your blindness…..?

  • Spending time in Kyiv myself and knowing actual on the ground Ukrainians who were there when when the Maidan Rebellion happened, rather than getting my information from Russia Today, I do not buy the Putin narrative of why the people threw out the Russian backed Ukrainian government, and so I know a home grown movement when I see one. You are either a paid shill or a fool.

  • mickc

    Paul Marks,
    Putin as some evil machine doing things just because he was trained to….and no other reason? Seriously?
    When the Cold War ended (the West won btw….) Russia became just another state seeking to become prosperous and at peace with friendly neighbouring states. Its size and history mean the many neighbours are unlikely to view it other than with suspicion, and such circumspection is necessary…but that doesn’t mean Russia is seeking to recreate the USSR.

  • mickc

    Perry,
    Not a paid shill, so presumably a fool then!
    And yes, I really, really believe a “rebellion” like that “just happens” without external “assistance”…
    But, of course, you were there…..so know precisely what happened….

  • Martin

    Of course I want to see this wretched KGB man retire to a monastery somewhere and stop his plotting against the West.

    And replaced by who? The opposition in Russia are the ultranationalists and Communists, Islamic terrorists, and Soros cultural Marxist proxies. Putin is better than any of them.

  • bobby b

    “So the USA arranges a coup in Ukraine to replace a duly elected President with a US puppet hostile to Russia . . .”

    Barrack (“tell Mr. Putin this is my last election – after my election I have more flexibility . . .”) Obama did this?

    Obama, who yearned for a friendly word or a smile from Putin for eight years?

    Must be about noon where you are, right?

  • mickc

    No, strange to relate its BST where I am…

    And yes, it happened under that nice Mr Obama’s Presidency….because just being nice is the most important qualification to become US President…nothing like advancing US interests or such.
    That nice FDR didn’t support South American dictators, and good ol’ Uncle Ike didn’t plan the Bay of Pigs (but he’d have got it right in the execution….)

  • bobby b

    “Nice”? You misread.

    O wanted to be Putin’s friend. He yearned for it.

    Why? Too many possible reasons to guess. Psychologists will be war-gaming this for decades.

    But he’d be the last to do what you’re suggesting. He hadn’t given up by then.

  • mickc

    Nation states seek to advance their own interests…always have, always will.
    But they shouldn’t pretend they are seeking universal peace and happiness and that the “other guy” is the bad guy….its insulting.

  • mickc

    bobby,
    I didn’t say he did it….I said it happened under his Presidency. History may, or may not, reveal the truth in due course.
    Of course, Trump wanted to be friends with Russia….that soon changed for no apparent reason…go figure, as they say…

  • bobby b

    “Nation states seek to advance their own interests . . .”

    Barrack O did very few things designed to advance his nation state’s interests. He had his own agenda, which remains occulted. Your truism fails when applied to his acts.

  • But, of course, you were there…..so know precisely what happened…

    Well I do have the advantage of speaking to people who were indeed there throughout the build up and actual rebellion, who were involved personally in both.

    But yeah I am sure you are right, those objective souls working for Russia Today know better and those poor Ukrainians are just suffering from false consciousness. And as I was once asked, if this was an astroturf event organised with CIA money, what is the correct address in Langley for this Ukrainian chap to write to so he can get paid, as somehow his cheque must have got lost in the post.

  • mickc

    bobby,
    I disagree. I think Obama believed his nation’s interests were best served by trying to help the American people not prolong or expand the American Empire.
    However, the habit of empire dies hard amongst those who created it and run it. They believe it is essential to “world peace” or some such thing…the “exceptional nation” concept.
    It takes a massive shock followed by a realistic leader to bring a nation to its senses.
    Britain had that with Suez, and Macmillan was the leader who disposed of the Empire…even tho he had supported the Suez action.
    The USA has not had the massive shock yet (Vietnam would have been it but the Cold War still provided the exceptional nation rationale…)
    The shock will probably be something to do with China…but I hope America can wise up and avoid the shock entirely. However, I doubt it..pity I like America and the American people..its rulers, not so much.

  • mickc

    Perry,
    so only people who disagree with you are shills….not the people you know, naturally…
    And yes, my cheque seems to have got lost in the post as well….damned privatisation! Its all Thatcher’s fault:-]

  • so only people who disagree with you are shills….not the people you know, naturally

    Well if they parrot Putin’s Russia Today propaganda narrative, yeah, they are probably shills. I am guessing you know very little about the actions of the Russian backed Ukrainian government that provoked the Maidan Revolt.

  • Julie near Chicago

    Quoth bobby:

    “Barrack O did very few things designed to advance his nation state’s interests.”

    Truer words were never.

  • Jacob

    I’m sure the Maidan Rebellion was a nice thing…No, I haven’t been there, and have no first hand knowledge of it.

    What I do know is that there were reports of extreme nationalists and Nazis among those nice people.
    I also know some of the things that happened during WW2, like the murdering of Jews, mostly perpetrated by Ukrainians.
    As far as I am concerned I prefer Russia over Ukraine.
    Anyway, the conflict between Russia and Ukraine is something that the US had no business interfering in.
    I can understand Putin not wishing to have NATO missiles stationed in Ukraine, it makes sense.

    So, Ukraine is no argument against Putin, it’s rather against the US policy.

  • I’m sure the Maidan Rebellion was a nice thing…No, I haven’t been there, and have no first hand knowledge of it.

    Then why are you commenting about it, if you know nothing about it?

    What I do know is that there were reports of extreme nationalists and Nazis among those nice people.

    So fucking what? There are extreme nationalists in Israel too. And in the UK. And in France. And pretty much everywhere.

    I also know some of the things that happened during WW2, like the murdering of Jews, mostly perpetrated by Ukrainians.

    And in 2017 that has what relevance?

    So, Ukraine is no argument against Putin, it’s rather against the US policy.

    Only if you believe the utter bullshit that US policy is what lead to the Maidan Square rebellion.

  • bobby b

    mickc
    September 23, 2017 at 9:19 am

    “I think Obama believed his nation’s interests were best served by trying to help the American people not prolong or expand the American Empire.”

    This would be humorous if it weren’t true. “We’ve been rich and powerful for too long. I’m going to open our borders and globalize our wealth so that we can all enjoy the standard of living of the average Pakistani bricklayer, make sure the people who want to kill us have access to nuclear weapons, empower Allah while claiming to not despise women, fight to keep the third world free of energy and food, and apologize for our past achievements. Only then will we be truly happy and without sin.”

    Really, I think he considered the US Presidency to be a stepping stone to bigger and better things.

  • Jacob

    “Only if you believe the utter bullshit that US policy is what lead to the Maidan Square rebellion.”

    No, I don’t believe the US organized the rebellion anymore than I believe the US organized the toppling of Mubarak in Egypt. But the US surely encouraged both. There was no good reason for the US to pick a fight with Putin over this.

  • Jacob

    Trump or no Trump, the US is consistent in it’s idiotic foreign policy (determined by out of control State Department idiots). It opposes Kurdish independence.

  • You guys should look up Fourth Generation Warfare.

    And stop watching T.V.

  • And stop watching T.V.

    Is TV still actually a thing? Been several years since I watched one.

  • It opposes Kurdish independence.

    That is indeed epic stupidity.

  • Nicholas (Unlicenced Joker) Gray

    Here’s a thought- could the North Korean testing of nukes be the reason that the Pacific rim of fire (volcanoes) are all starting up again? (Bali, Vanuatu, Mexico City, etc)