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Exflux from Islam?

I brought prejudices acquired during the Cold War to the struggle between civilisation and Islam, but tried – and try still – to be careful to see the differences as well as the similarities between the two struggles.

In this spirit, I at first thought that whereas Soviet communism was ideologically breakable, Islam is not breakable. More than a billion souls believe in it, and however true it might be that it is evil and repulsive nonsense, saying this would accomplish very little. It would merely poke the hornet’s nest with a stick. But slowly, I have been coming round to thinking almost the complete opposite. Not only does denouncing Islam as evil nonsense establish the mere right, of us civilisationers, to denounce Islam – along with our right to say anything else we might want to say – true or false, nice or nasty, sensible or daft. Such talk also, I am starting to believe, strikes a dagger into the heart of the enemy camp, by spreading doubt in it about basic beliefs and hence sewing discord and confusion. I used to think that Islamists were indifferent to such ideological attacks. Now, I am starting to believe that they fear them very much. Hence all the murder threats. They sense that this is one of their weakest and potentially biggest fronts in the struggle. The biggest front of all, in fact.

And even if only a few “apostates” materialise, they are of huge significance, for they bring with them deep knowledge of the enemy we face and how we can see the enemy off.

Another advantage of ideological attacks on Islam is that arguments about – and in favour of – “apostasy” unite civilisation, and divide its enemies. We civilisationers argue fiercely with one another about how to oppose Islam, but almost all of us believe that if you want to criticise a religion non-violently you should be allowed to, and that if you want to abandon a religion you should be able to do that without getting extremely violent grief, or even the threat of it, from those who still do believe in it. Talking like this or doing this may be rather daft, and very unwise, and get you shunned by polite society (i.e. scared society), but … yes, it should be allowed. I am content to regard all who say that they disagree with the claims in this paragraph as the enemies of civilisation that they are, not just from the point of view of the mere truth, but on tactical grounds. Put such cretinous pro-Islamist fellow-travellers on the defensive also, I say.

And now I read this article (linked to about a week ago by Instapundit) in which it is claimed that the trickle of converts from Islam that was all I had so far noticed is actually whole lot more than that. It tells of a spectacular growth in the number of converts from Islam. Conversions have been happening in a steady flow for decades, but recently they have become a torrent, world-wide. Mostly these people are converting to Christianity, but sometimes just to not-Islam. Bossiness and terrorism and constant fighting is, it seems, not just repulsive. It actually repels. People are leaving the religion of war and joining the religion of, approximately speaking, peace – or joining no religion at all. Islam is only still growing numerically because it is growing so quickly by purely biological means. As far as the flow of converts is concerned it is now in headlong retreat.

So, is this true? Is this allegedly huge exflux really happening? I have heard nothing about it before, but that could merely mean that I am ignorant. Or is the exflux just wishful thinking on the part of Christians, talking nonsense to keep their spirits up?

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45 comments to Exflux from Islam?

  • Gib

    Any cult (or “religion”) which supports itself through fear, societal pressure and childhood indoctrination is breakable by demonstrating freedom and alternative viewpoints to the faithful.

    For those who are stuck in cult (or “religious”) societies, whether because they live in Iran, or because they live in a compound in Texas with 200 other nuts, the biggest danger facing their faith is seeing how life outside the cult is, and learning about it. By challenging their deeply held beliefs and making them think.

    You’re right Brian, the Islamists do fear the ideological attacks, and the harder they react, the more I know we are winning.

    (Of course people in relatively free societies who are still religious are a different matter)

  • Nick M

    OK, I’m on shaky ground here because I can’t remember the exact details but essentially fitna which can be translated roughly as sedition is pretty much second only to shirk (polytheism) in Islam’s big list of “dont’s”.

    Brian, I’m sure I read something worded very almost exactly the same as your spreading doubt in it about basic beliefs and hence sewing discord and confusion. in the Koran or Hadith or some such. Coincidence?

    Those who attack God and his apostle and spread disorder in the land must be put to death or crucified, or have their hands and feet cut off on opposite sides, or be banished from the land.

    – Koran, somewhere – it might have been that very passage but Islamic scriptures are so rambling and repetitive that I’m confused.

    As to the article you linked too… Well, it’s really hard to say because obviously so many conversions will be by stealth. It’s interesting though that on the other hand conversions to Islam tend to be vastly more obvious – beards and hijabs and whatnot. Perhaps this has led us to over-estimate the flow in one direction.

    Oh, and why is no-one leaping up and down and calling Malaysia an apartheid state?

    It’s Islam’s Berlin Wall.

  • MarkS

    I couldn’t agree more. It’s time Islam faced the cold steel of logical debate and enlightenment. I imagine Catholicism was at a similar stage during the time of the inquisition. Islam is a medieval theocratic concept that has adopted neither enlightenment or the discipline of rational debate. A twin attack against it with criticism on one hand and capitalism on the other could eventually break the stranglehold of this most odious belief.

  • Brian

    They call this the Life of Brian strategy…..

  • Nick M

    My comment was confused. The Berlin Wall thing should have gone in a lot earlier. Too much cut and paste

  • Roger Clague

    I teach maths at home to children whose families are Islamic. They are similar to Christian familes. They pray and socialise at the mosque. They feel part of long historical and large geographical traditition.

    They see that way women in other groups are treated better. They see that Indians and Poles get on by mixing and learning new skills and attitudes. And their expectations and horizons change.

  • “In this spirit, I at first thought that whereas Soviet communism was ideologically breakable, Islam is not breakable.”

    I would humbly submit to you that communist ideology is alive and well and all around.The Soviet Union collapsed economically-not ideologically.

    “It’s time Islam faced the cold steel of logical debate and enlightenment.”

    Islam has already faced those that worship intellectualism.Islam uses cold steel guns and ieds instead of logical debate and enlightenment.Good luck getting an armed Islamist to an intellectual sit-down.

  • Billll

    All religions are selling a product, no different from Ford or Toyota, and don’t like competition. Around here it’s not uncommon to see Ford and Toyota across the street from one another. In the ummah, the Imams greatest fear seems to be having a Christian church appear across the street.
    If the only way you can sell your product is to burn the competition down, you don’t have much of a product.

  • renminbi

    This isn’t so much a religion as a cult which sanctifies brigandage and terrorism;this is ultimately a dead end. The European problem is a cowardly and stupid ruling class which stands for nothing but its perks.

    My suspicion is that when the regime in Iran goes Islam will be as influential the as Catholicism is in Southern Europe.

  • renminbi

    Sorry-as influential there.

  • Pa Annoyed

    NickM,

    The passage you quote is 5:32 from the Koran.

    Fitna is ‘civil war’, ‘internal strife’, ‘schism’, ‘secession’, ‘anarchy’, ‘persecution’, etc. For example 8:39 – “And fight them [those who disbelieve] until persecution (fitnatun) is no more, and religion is all for Allah.” Another way to translate it would be “purification” in the sense of purifying the community of unbelievers and heretics.

    I’ve never seen Islamic crimes ranked in order of severity, but I think any form of apostasy or murtadd, would come high. I think sedition in the sense of revealing Muslim weaknesses is covered in Reliance p74.1 (for which the penalty is death, of course) and p49-50, considering Muslims unbelievers or hurting or reviling Muslims (which mentions no specific penalty, although it does point out that Koran 24:19 says they’ll have a ‘painful torment’ in this world and the next. It’s ‘humiliating torment’ in 33:57. I wonder what those Gitmo sub-human rights lawyers would make of that?)

  • RRS

    The original thread focuses on a “decline” in the force of the concept of “Islam” by reason of conversions of one sort or another from the Muslim “Faith.”

    We do need to recognize that for there to be a flow of conversions, in effect a drain from “Islam” of the type envisaged, there needs also be something to convert to.

    The basic elements of the Muslim Faith (the religious aspect) are now about 1,400 years old. It took the bulk of what has become Western Civilization about the same period of time to reach the beginnings of the present era (in the 15th Century).

    The Age of Faith of Western Civilization lies back in those earlier periods, and it remains to be seen whether or not a similar transition will occur in the “Islam” Civilization, which had the its origins in the same Eastern Mysticisms as what has become Christianity in its varieties.

    It is quite possible that the Muslim Faith will take on a different role as the cultures in its embrace are swept over by the waves of Western Civilization moving steadily Eastward, and as the peoples from those cultures find themselves displaced into the secular evolution of the West.

    However, there is very little for those peoples to convert to for any extended generations.

  • Usually, in history, religions don’t disappear because their people convert voluntarily to another religion. Usually a religion disappears when the people practicing it have been conquered by a stronger group, and forced to convert.

    Islam won’t disappear any time soon by voluntary mass conversion.

  • Pa Annoyed

    “We do need to recognize that for there to be a flow of conversions, in effect a drain from “Islam” of the type envisaged, there needs also be something to convert to.”

    There are, of course, many things to convert to. Now more than ever. There has never been any shortage of religions.

    What is lacking is religions with power and privilege in Western society – state-backing, protection from criticism, input into the education of children, a respected voice on matters of government and public morality – that are not granted to just any belief system, but only those that fit a particular traditional pattern. In this era of freedom of belief, what really is lacking for them to convert to is a universally convincing religion.

    But enough of that. The main reason Muslims convert to Christianity is that it is a halfway house that is tolerated in Islamic law. Being a Christian (or Jew, or Zoroastrian) is technically allowed, as they are monotheist religions supposedly based on Islam. Being an atheist or agnostic or polytheist is not. It is a good way to persuade your Muslim neighbours that you still have some standards.

    But it has been the case for many years that Islam was growing mainly through birth rather than conversion, and because of its rules on Murtadd, it has always been the case that converts away from it have kept themselves invisible. Whether there is any particular increase, I couldn’t say. And I rather doubt anyone else knows, either. If a pollster stops you in the street and asks if you’re an apostate, what would you say? But there may be an increase in those willing to show it, now that the West is able to provide lots of bad publicity to anyone who goes too far in cracking down. It’s not much, but it does perhaps give those few who stand up the feeling they’re not all alone in the world.

    Islam has always feared apostasy – that’s why they introduced the rules in the first place. The moment Muhammad died, half the tribes in Arabia abandoned the faith, and the first Caliphs had to fight a massive civil war to bring them to heel again. (See Muir’s history book.) Making it safe for people to give up Islam would reduce it substantially and force reform. But of course, it can be argued that an Islam tolerating apostasy wouldn’t really be Islam any more anyway. So the moment they honestly acknowledge the right to freedom of belief, Islam would already be dead.

  • RRS

    Jacob –

    You might then be interested to learn how the Altai Turks, who raised the Sword of Osman became Muslim and then as Ottomans conquored Persia and carried Islam further West. It is more likely that “Islam” became a useful political tool for the Turks, who were not converted “by the sword.” It generated a highly useful psychological “fix” for their objectives.

    Conquest has not been the route it may seem. It may more likely be imitations of successful cultures that carry the “day” (eons).

    The West was imbued with Eastern Mysticisms. Roman conquests absorbed other experiences, as did Alexander’s before that.

    Accepted wisdom is not always supported by facts.

  • Indeed RRS,there isn’t much incentive presently for Muslims to convert to anything other than what they are.Nor is there much incentive for westerners to convert to Islam.Time may eventually present such incentives or incentives to do something else.

  • dre

    This seems to fit in with the topic:

    “Iranian Islamic leader the Ayatollah Khomeini once said that “There is no fun in Islam.” I disagree. Islam can be quite funny; it just isn’t intended to be so. I have long said that Islam’s weakest point is mockery. Any enemy will reveal what he fears the most, if you listen to him closely. Muslims fear criticism or mockery of their religion more than they fear death. Well, if mockery is what they fear above all else, maybe that’s exactly what we should give them?”
    (Link)

  • permanentexpat

    Elle writes:

    I would humbly submit to you that communist ideology is alive and well and all around.The Soviet Union collapsed economically-not ideologically.

    Thank you, Elle…it’s about time that someone pointed that out.
    As a young man I was convinced that Communism was a religion, godless maybe, but with all the trappings of the other World religions and yes, it is still horribly alive & well, even if lurking under ‘acceptable’ aliases in our very own backyards.

    Brian writes:

    And even if only a few “apostates” materialise, they are of huge significance, for they bring with them deep knowledge of the enemy we face and how we can see the enemy off.

    The relevant words here are the enemy we face…and that needed saying clearly too. Why there are so few who understand this is completely beyond my ken…(It’s the evil Booosh)…duh!

    I gather that AH was more upset by Low’s portrayal of him as a donkey than as a bloodthirsty monster. Yes, ridicule is an excellent tool.

  • Laird

    All religions need a little ridicule to keep them humble, and Islam needs it far more than any other.

  • Robert

    And there lies the weakness of the Islamic warmachine. Why do you think they respond more for cartoons instead of precision bombing attacks by the West?

  • Robert

    That Islamic Demographic weapon won’t do Islam much good if most of the Islamic couple’s 13 kids left Islam.

  • el windy

    The recent very public conversion of Magdi alam, deputy editor of Corriere della Sera, is a case in point, His Egyptian origins and “islamic culture” did not stop him being a fine journalist. We “christians” should bear in mind that if it had not been for the Islamic presence in the middle ages, european knowledge and culture would have literally gone up in smoke since Spain’s “christian” rulers wanted to burn all “pagan” writings – Aristotle, Plato, algebra, medicine, etc…It was only the secret collaboration of islamic and christian scholars which saved a lot of these texts from the flames of ignorance. We recoil in horror at Hitler’s burning of non-aryan books and I recoil in horror at the above article.

  • Phil Hellene

    Mr Windy – without the ‘Islamic presence in the middle ages’, vast amounts of accumulated classical and Christian learning would not have been lost in the destruction of the Eastern Roman Empire in the first place.

  • Jacob

    RRS,
    Indeed the Turks gave up voluntarily whatever pagan religion they had and adopted Islam, and thereafter imposed Islam by the sword on other nations they conquered.
    The Romans, too, gave up paganism and adopted Christianity not by the sword, then later, when Christians nations grew powerful they conquered other places and imposed Chritianity by the sword.

    It’s done usually by the sword, exceptions notwithstanding.

    Maybe over time, muslims in Europe will assimilate and though staying muslim, will become moderate and tolerant. But it will take a long, long time.

  • Nick M

    Phil Hellene is absolutely correct. The Golden Age of Islam is utterly over-hyped.

    RRS,
    I have met a whole shed-load of spiritual tourists. It puts bread and cheese on my table*. One of the greatest lies ever told is that the East is mystic and the West rational. There is mysticism enough in the West without importing it.

    *Strictly speaking it provides the table but I couldn’t resist the Holmes quote.

  • RRS

    Nick M –

    Can one identify any significant “religion” in the world that is not derived from the “mysticisms” of the areas East of the Mediterranean?

    Pagan in common English usage has long been taken to identify any form of religion that is not Jewish, Christian or Mohammedan (other than being a major community in Burma).

    True, the “West” was imbued earlier with its own mysticisms, as much of Africa continues to be, while imbibing other influences. But, the West is now imbued with mysticisms that arose in the East, and the peoples of the West continue to turn there in search of something more appealingly “primal.”

    Without pretense to any extensive scholarship, it can be pointed out that the earlier monotheism in the Greek Experience (the Hellenistic) was submerged in the Judaic sectarianism that ultimately prevailed by reason of many factors, political, military and commercial.

  • Google Islam Israeli Pornography interesting stuff.

    If you want to find my take look for:

    Islam Israeli Pornography Power Control

    They are being liquefied by Western Civ through computers and esp cell phones.

  • The NY Times had an article recently about kids in Iraq openly deriding Islam and Imams.

  • Soviet Communism was ideologically broken. Russia has not turned into Switzerland but it is merely fascist in the sense that it was under the tzars. It no longer professes a universalizing and expansionist political-economic system.

  • Adrian

    Mr Windy,

    You over-state your case and your facts are off but there is a valid point to make that some periods of Islamic culture were indeed admirable for their intellectual openness, despite Nick M’s doubts

    The trouble is, that’s not the Islam we see today. In fact we see an Islam that expressly and deliberately renounces those older, more moderate values and shows no desire to recover them.

  • Seerak

    All religions are selling a product, no different from Ford or Toyota, and don’t like competition. Around here it’s not uncommon to see Ford and Toyota across the street from one another. In the ummah, the Imams greatest fear seems to be having a Christian church appear across the street.

    Why would they fear Christianity, which is merely a different species of the same irrationality? What they really fear is the Enlightenment which tamed and civilized Christianity, and has the potential to do the same to any faith — if it could be reborn, that is..

    A church down the street does not threaten them as much as would a well-stocked library.

  • steve-roberts

    The tide is ebbing on islam as well as christianity. The old religions cannot withstand Disney, MTV, and personal freedom. One small illustration: I was at a licensing magistrates hearing a couple of years ago, and one of the prospective licensees was a 25 year old man called Atif. When he stepped up to speak the usher rushed over with a Koran for him to swear on. Seeing hesitation in his eyes, she then pulled out in succession the Bhagavad Gita, Guru Grant Sahib, and the Bible, finally saying, as none seemed to spark any impression “Or, if you would like another holy book, I’ve got some more in the office. “Don’t worry”, he replied, “they’re all the same to me”.

  • The recent very public conversion of Magdi alam, deputy editor of Corriere della Sera, is a case in point, His Egyptian origins and “islamic culture” did not stop him being a fine journalist. We “christians” should bear in mind that if it had not been for the Islamic presence in the middle ages, european knowledge and culture would have literally gone up in smoke since Spain’s “christian” rulers wanted to burn all “pagan” writings – Aristotle, Plato, algebra, medicine, etc…It was only the secret collaboration of islamic and christian scholars which saved a lot of these texts from the flames of ignorance. We recoil in horror at Hitler’s burning of non-aryan books and I recoil in horror at the above article.

    I think Adrian is being a bit mild here. This comment completely ignores the fact that much of the saved knowledge was from the Byzantine Empire (you may have heard of them, el windy) and came to Europe by way of the exodus of Greek scholars to Italy from collapsing Byzantium, not through Al Andalus. Of course, this doesn’t fit into your narrative too well.

    It’s also worth noting too that Islam’s “golden age” was nothing more than a repackaging of the accomplishments of the Persians that they overran in the late 7th and 8th century AD. The Arabs themselves had no great culture, and Islam’s intellectual and artistic contributions came by way of the Persians that were forced into Islam by the jihad.

  • Now, that’s not to say that Muslims haven’t contributed some significant works. I’d never argue that. However, you very badly overstate how vital Islam was to the preservation of classical knowledge, and underestimate the debt that the Islamic world owes to the conquered Persian Empire for its golden age.

  • ChrisLGreen

    The Enlightenment followed an intense period of religiously motivated violence in Northern (and parts of Western) Europe (although it is easy to argue that greed was the real reason and religion the excuse). The same thing is happening to Islam. There is a simmering and intense resentment among young urban Iranians towards the morality police. I’ve started reading many reports of young Iraqi’s disgusted with their religious leaders, particularly with the violence they perpetuate, starting to adopt more moderate and even liberal views. Even young people in Saudi Arabia are using cell phones and internet technology to bypass the traditional heavy-handed moral restrictions.

    We may be witnessing the last death throws of conservative Islam as a widespread cultural tradition. In two generations, things may be completely different. The only thing that might prevent this is if Islamic people feel very threatened as a group by an outside force.

    Such threats tend to drive a culture to embrace their roots, to find solidarity and comforts in its own ancient traditions as a form of defense against outside forces. For example, the persecution of the Jews throughout the centuries tended to strengthen Jewish identity and familial solidarity rather than weaken it. Remember that Europe’s transition from superstition to rationality occurred just as Europe attained global preeminence, not when it felt several threatened by outside cultures and forces.

    With this in mind, it is not unreasonable to consider a future (50 years from now) where conservative Islam is weak and fading in most of the Middle East and in the US, while remaining strong and stalwart in Europe.

    The trick is to avoid having one of your large cities reduced to radioactive slag as Extreme Islam makes its last attempt to preserve its archaic institutions.

  • ken harkins

    Communism is and was a religion. A book called “The Whispers” by Orlando Figes documents this. He focusses on Stalin’s Russia. Thousands and possibly millions of believing communists confessed to crimes they knew they had not committed because they thought that doing so would bring about a better world. Although torture was applied to the stubborn, torture was not required for the true believers. Their faith was stronger than truth–for 87 years. Communism, in the end, was defeated by truth–and force. Islam, can be defeated in the same way; but it may take 87 or prerhaps 1000 years.

  • In ‘Islamofascism’: Beware of a religion without irony (The Wall Street Journal, August 20, 2006), Roger Scruton wrote:

    [A] singular fact about the Christian religion, a fact noticed by Kierkegaard and Hegel but rarely commented upon today, … is that it is informed by a spirit of irony. Irony means accepting ‘the other,’ as someone other than you. It was irony that led Christ to declare that his ‘kingdom is not of this world,’ not to be achieved through politics. Such irony is a long way from the humorless incantations of the Koran. Yet it is from a posture of irony that every real negotiation, every offer of peace, every acceptance of the other, begins. The way forward, it seems to me, is to encourage the re-emergence of an ironical Islam, of the kind you find in the philosophy of Averroës, in Persian poetry and in ‘The Thousand and One Nights.’

  • Brian Macker

    This article expresses the precise strategy that I have been following. Not only that but the more people that do it the harder it is to put pressure on them all.

    Islam is an evil philosophy and needs to be exposed for what it is.

  • I agree. At first it is a hard thing to accept; between the fears of those who are rightly concerned about the ideology of Islam and the triumphalism of Islamists claiming that theirs is the fastest growing religion. But many of those who are described as Muslims are apostates and nominal Muslims who are counted because of their inheritance. Muslims themselves are concerned about this trend.

    All claims of numbers of people leaving Islam are at best informed estimates and, at worst, emotionally biased examples of panicked Islamists and overly optimistic evangelists guess work. And I suspect that a strengthening trend is more likely than a sudden collapse as was the case of the USSR (yes there are still commies but the working model of communist society did collapse and even Marxists try not to be seen as Marxists anymore – e.g. see Obama). But with all the factors like the evangelism by foreign and, increasingly, native missionaries, the Christian and secular satellites, the slow but accelerating penetration of Internet and publishing resources, and the disillusionment of the young in nations where Islam is in control (Iran, Saudi Arabia) or fighting for control (Iran) or in collusion with those in control (the rest of the Middle East and North Africa – MENA) and the increasing visibility of the apostasy issue, Islam is not in the kind of shape it is portrayed to be. The stronger one is committed to it, the more likely one is to get killed and the less committed one is to it, the more likely one is to become rich and have a fun and rewarding life.

    Even the Islamic demographic advantage is falling from the sky as literacy and prosperity alter breeding patterns in the MENA and European nations alike.

    This is not going to result in peace immediately. As zealots become more fanatical about keeping apostates, the trend will make true believers more prone to zealousness even as “moderates” and doubters are pushed out.

    You mentioned the impact of other eras on this issue and that is always a risk but there are some transferable lessons. Natan Sharansky mentions in his book how the Soviet dissidents were thought to be wishful thinkers when they felt that the Soviet system was nearing collapse. Most experts in the 1980’s were certain that long-term relationships should be pursued with the USSR since its existence for another century was almost assured. Some Islamic apostates (not all of course) have begun to claim that Islam is not as strong as it is supposed. They may be wrong but it would be hasty for us to dismiss them. The fact is that Many Muslims do convert to Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism (the last two mainly due to latent adherence within the population in more recently Islamicized regions like Indonesia and the Indian subcontinent ) and secularism is present in in the Islamic world. It is important to maximize these trends by supporting the rights of apostates and giving them the opportunity to broadcast, publish and express themselves.

    When fear of leaving is so important to a religion it is obviously a weak spot. When Mohamed died and at other times there have been apostasy movements. These were crushed by force. It is important to let Muslims know that that is not going to happen again.

  • JB

    “Thousands and possibly millions of believing communists confessed to crimes they knew they had not committed because they thought that doing so would bring about a better world. Although torture was applied to the stubborn, torture was not required for the true believers.”

    More likely thousands than millions.

    As Solzhenitzyn said, the most common form of torture was continued sleeplessness. Enough of that and a person will lose sanity and sign anything.

  • Joshua

    There is one small detail that no one has brought up yet: Just who is leaving Islam? People who used to be Islamic supremacists, or people who used to follow more benign forms of the faith? Somehow I suspect there’s a lot more of the latter than the former. If that’s true, then even a large “exflux” from Islam may not be such a great boon to the West after all. Taken to its logical conclusion, it would reduce the ummah to a much smaller size – but those who remain would be almost exclusively fanatical Islamic supremacists. What are the implications of this? Three jump to my mind:

    1) It’s exactly what the supremacists have wanted all along – to “purify” Islam of all errancy – albeit not in the way they have in mind. Instead of one billion Muslims who all share the Islamic supremacist outlook, they might end up with, say, “only” 100-200 million Muslims who all share the Islamic supremacist outlook. This sounds great for the West on its face, until you remember that…

    2) What Islamic supremacists lack in numbers, they already more than make up for in terms of being a lot more sophisticated, better funded, better organized and well-connected than their more benign Muslim counterparts. Mass defections of the latter do nothing to diminish the former. When senior Muslim Brotherhood figures and/or heirs to the Saudi throne start joining in this flight from Islam; then there is real cause for optimism. Until then, not so much.

    3) Even in a future when the PC/MC governments of the West can no longer hide behind the “not all Muslims are terrorists/supremacists” canard, does anyone seriously believe they will be any less obsequious toward Islam than they are now? PC/MC’s de facto alliance with Islamic supremacism will then effectively transform into an alliance with Islam itself. Granted, this may well prove to be a self-inflicted death blow for PC/MC in the long run, but there’s no telling how much damage they can do to Western civilization in the meantime.

  • TCD

    One insight concerning religion I have not seen expressed is a fairly simple one: People worship the God that gives them the most stuff. When the practitioners of a given religion are seen as successful others want to imitate them. Its simplest expression is seen in the cargo cults. I think this also applies to the millions of people in the third world eagerly adopting the Western point of view. This assumes, though, that people have been freed from the need to depend on their co-religionists for safety, or indeed, freed from fear of their co-religionists, and that the “New religion” is willing to embrace them.

  • mojo

    Islam, especially the newer Salafi/Wahabi interpretations, are extremely repressive. As was the Communist empire. Both will fail, inevitably. People don’t like being repressed, as a general rule of thumb.

    Just ask Dennis…

  • Jaybird

    We’ve spent the last 7 years wondering how we could fight the Islamic Menace and, all along, we’ve had the weapon among us.

    We need Dee Sneider to reunite Twisted Sister and then to remake his “I Wanna Rock” video having Mark Metcalf play an Imam. “A Twisted Sister pin??? ON YOUR IHRAM?!? YOU’RE WORTHLESS AND WEAK!!! I ask you… WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO WITH YOUR LIFE?!?”

    “I WANNA ROCK!”

    And just do the video the way they did it back in the 80’s.