You can look at it the other way. Putin took the Crimea. Putin promoted the break-away republics. Without him, they would not have happened.
In all the similar cases, the common theme is Putin. He did the same to Georgia as he is to Ukraine. He did the same to Moldova, with Trans-Dniestr.
Were all those governments also reckless? Or were they just unfortunate enough to border Russia?
Putin has been consistently threatening to the Baltic states too. He even sponsored cyber attacks on Estonia. Now it is a long bow to draw that they have been reckless.
No. Putin is the common theme. Nothing Ukraine did, short of bowing to his every wish, would have stopped him. They have not been reckless. They have been desperately trying to deal with a homicidal maniac over the border.
Your argument reminds me of telling battered spouses that they should be more careful, rather than pointing the finger at the violent thug doing the violent things.
– ‘Chester Draws’ taking to task a commenter who accused the Ukrainian government of having brought this upon themselves with ‘reckless behaviour’.
Putin and NATO, it is not the fairy tale situation of one good, one bad. Obviously they both can be assholes, chasing dreams of their respective empires and not caring all too much about the mayhem they cause. A pox on both their houses.
Transnistria actually goes back to Gorbachev and Yeltsin days
Freddo gives us another variant of the same moral equivalence. A pox on your moral relativism.
Ah, I’ve been taken to task. I’m almost honoured.
Is it your view that Crimea’s breakaway from Ukraine was actually the doing of one man and had no local support? Did it have widespread opposition within Crimea? Has there been a substantial migration of the population of Crimea back to Ukraine since that vile Putin viciously took it over against their will?
Everyone familiar with Crimea knows that the annexation to Russia had almost universal support by the local population.
Attempting to portray a country that has had an 8 year long civil war in the east and an active secessionist movement as having healthy relations with its minority population is a bizarre act of denial. And no, I don’t accept that you can just heap all of this on the actions of one man as if it hasn’t been Ukrainians at war with each other for eight years. The support for the breakaway republics in the east is much less universal than it was in Crimea, but there are absolutely supporters of both sides of that civil war.
Blaming Putin for Moldova’s disintegration is just ignorant but I have no interest in that topic.
The Putin Cult is incredibly depressing – and it is has having terrible consequences.
Next month we may see the fall of the conservative government in Hungary – which has, generally, done a good job. Why may it fall? Because of ALLEGED associations with Mr Putin in the past.
In the United States the left, the Collectivists, were on the run politically – facing such a massive defeat in November that even election rigging could not save them. But now Mr Putin has ridden to the rescue – or rather the infantile behaviour of some on the American right (making excuses for Mr Putin and suggesting making some sort of deal with him), people whose comments about Mr Putin in the past were absurd – and, yet, even though they are in a hole KEEP DIGGING.
Mr Putin has always been a violent criminal – stealing and murdering, the correct attitude towards him was always clear condemnation.
Yet even now, with the Ukraine in flames, some people are still making excuses for Mr Putin and suggesting making some sort of “deal” with him.
As Bulldog Drummond says above – a pox on you.
This has nothing to do with Russian people or Russian culture (I have seen a lot of stuff on the internet which is just anti Russian racism – and it is despicable) this is the fault of Mr Putin – an individual human being.
Everything Mr Putin has done in his life, from stealing property to having his opponents poisoned, has been his PERSONAL CHOICE.
The gloating of French English language television news today was awful – but if I were to deny that any of the right were pro Putin, they could point at comments on-this-very-site to prove their case.
You stupid, stupid, people – stop, just STOP.
You are in a hole, and we are stuck in that hole with you (you are dragging us down with you), STOP DIGGING.
@Paul Marks
So is the anti-Russia cult.
Mark – I agree.
And Mr Putin is a traitor to Russia, to the Russian people. For example, he has sold Russia out to the People’s Republic of China, reducing Russia (the Russian people) to the status of a PRC colony.
He must draw a very sharp distinction between the Russian people, who Mr Putin has betrayed, and the criminal Mr Putin.
The Ukrainian war is a direct result of the US overthrow of the legitimate, democratically elected government and the installation of the current junta in 2014. Putin, being basically an opportunist merely accepted what was given him. And the Crimeans, overwhelmingly Russia, did vote to join Russian. The Donbas people, again largely Russian, reacted against the junta’s attempts to suppress Russian culture and language. By the way, the UN defines that as genocide.
The West now finds itself defending actual 1930/40 Nazis. Not merely the infamous Azov Brigade, which proudly displays swastikas and SS lightning bolts and Privy Sektor, but also regular Ukrainian army units with the sonnenrad badge front and center.
The US is the evil empire, and western Europe are its servile, supine slaves.
Paul Marks embarrasses himself.
Kevin Jaeger and I agree.
Freddo: NATO’s idea of chasing an empire is “Your country can join our defensive alliance if you really want to”. Obviously, there’s some aspect of them joining a club of like-minded nations, but that’s a pretty innocuous sort of empire. You’re right that it’s not as black-and-white as a fairy tale, but it’s not exactly the dark-gray-and-darker-gray of a George RR Martin story either.
Kevin Jaeger: Crimea’s breakaway was the work of one man, although it probably did have a fair bit of local support. It’s possible that it could have won a majority in an honest election, but Putin clearly didn’t want to take that risk, so he didn’t bother holding an honest election. Similarly, that “civil war” in the east was heavily propped up by Russian soldiers, so it’s hardly the same as it’d be if there was a civil war that was genuinely started by their civil society.
Bob Sykes: The US gave a thumbs-up to the Euromaidan protests and the resulting change of government, but I’ve seen no evidence that they did any more than issue a few positive press releases and make a few phone calls. (Frankly, I’m not sure I’ve even seen anyone try to offer any such evidence.) And even if you think that the 2014 change of government was illegitimate, the 2019 election was honest by all accounts, so Zelensky is also a legitimate, democratically elected government. Installing a new junta by outright invasion is hardly a way to restore democratic legitimacy. And yes, there’s a few Nazis in Ukraine, but their President is Jewish, so it’s clearly not the bulk of their society.
bob sykes.
“Paul Marks embarrasses himself” for saying that it is NOT the Russian people who are at fault – but Mr Putin as an individual.
OK then “bob sykes” my name is Paul Marks, and my address is [xx] Northumberland Road, Kettering, Northamptonshire, [Postcode in original comment].
What is your name and your address Sir? If you are so proud to support Mr Putin, surely you should do so publicly.
As for Kevin Jaeger – he can speak for himself, if he supports Mr Putin (as you do bob sykes) he can say so, he does not need you to speak for him.
I have said many unpopular things under my own name – and been punished for it.
I do not ask other people to do something I have not done myself.
And if you use a fake name – do not name yourself after a fictional (or a real) murderer.
@Paul Marks
Apparently there are proposals to use the London properties of Abramovitch and others to house Ukranians. It was on Jeremy Vine just now (yes, yes I know) but listening to the callers was painful.
A lot of “we’ll show these psychos”, with a few trying to point out that you can’t just tear up property rights and the rule of law on a whim for twitter upvotes.
However this ends, we will have to deal with Russia the other side of it, and that should always be borne in mind. To separate Putin somehow from Russia and engineer his downfall? If that’s the “war” aim, then that aim is laudable, but to do this requires skill, tact and statecraft of the highest order.
Oh dear!
I don’t think it really needs to be said but for the record I do not support Putin or Russia’s often brutal behaviour I areas it considers their sphere of influence.
Understanding and having a realistic evaluation of Russia’s military capabilities should not be mistaken for supporting their every action. It’s all very well to show off your moral outrage that Russia doesn’t behave like Switzerland. It’s also completely useless.
It is also not Russian propaganda to point out that NATO has lost its way when it goes abroad looking for conflicts to join. It had no business attacking Serbia or Libya, and treating Ukraine as a de facto NATO member these last eight years or so has in my opinion made the situation in Ukraine much worse. I respect that others have a different view but that is mine.
Mark – yes it is very difficult. Mr Putin has positioned himself at the heart of a criminal enterprise which is like a vampire sucking the blood out of the Russian people. As for the madness of anti Russian racism (even Russian CATS have been attacked) I join you in condemning it.
Kevin Jaeger – as I pointed out, you can speak for yourself and you have done so.
I welcome your condemnation of Mr Putin – but I wish you would be clearer in drawing a clear line between Mr Putin and the Russian people.
It must be remembered that before the invasion of Ukraine many of the victims of Mr Putin were RUSSIANS.
Many of the people he had robbed (from quite ordinary people – right up to rich so called “Oligarchs”) and many of the people he had murdered, were RUSSIAN.
Freddo,
There is no moral equivalence between NATO and Putin. That is like arguing that John Wesley was cut from the same cloth as Stalin. It’s just lazy thinking that there aren’t white hats and black hats in this World. That the white hats aren’t always stainless doesn’t mean they tend not to be on the side of the angels. Why do you think the free(ish) nations have all come out against Putin? It is because most of us have read JRRT (or at least seen the Peter Jackson version) and we know what truly Sauronic Evil looks like. I know I used the dreaded “E” word which is almost as “hateful” as saying, “Only Women give birth” or saying JK Rowling has been hounded dreadfully for stating a simple biological truth.
Fuck it! I’ll say it because it is true. Putin is evil and if there wasn’t an evil leader in The Kremlin who thought he’d get away with it we wouldn’t be where we are. We weren’t with the Sov gerontocracy who basically lacked the cojones. We weren’t with Gorbachev (as Thatcher said, “A man we can do business with”) and Yeltsin was just too drunk to care. We now have a vile man who is quite possibly dying (he doesn’t look well) and has a dream of a legacy of rebuilding what the Tsars and Soviets had and all Hell is following in his train.
He is a malignant narcissist desperate to achieve a fever-dream of a greater Russia as his testament and if he has to bomb maternity hospitals to do it then that is small change in the big exchange for the Greater Glory of The Sacred Russian Motherland and of Vlad. Putin (and his deranged desires) is the cause of this war. It is that simple and no ammount of sophistry can get around that simple fact.
Victory to Ukraine! Because, make no mistake, here day fights with night.
Seriously? If Ukraine was being treated as a de facto NATO member, the response after 2014 was utterly derisory. I find it bizarre that you think NATO providing even less support for Ukraine would have made Russia less hostile to Ukraine’s existence.
If a less lackadaisical POTUS than Obama had been in the Whitehouse in 2014, perhaps Russia could have been made to believe the cost of continuing its expansion westwards was prohibitive, but sadly little more than token measures and official grimaces happened. Where we are now is because too many people agreed with you in the past, and so the impression viewed from Russia was a western world largely characterised by indifference and weakness.
Yes, seriously. Since 2014 Ukraine has been flooded with western weapons and training. It has also proven to be very effective, as Russia would have had a cakewalk in 2014 but now faces real threats from NLAWs, Javelins, Mandpads and many highly trained special forces units.
But more basically I reject characterizing Ukraine as part of the west, and especially eastern Ukraine where the bulk of the conflict has been since 2014. Heap all the abuse on Putin and Russia you want and I won’t even disagree much. But Ukraine ain’t Switzerland or Denmark. It’s eastern part especially is much more like Belarus than any western country.
I don’t entirely disagree, but ever been there?
The term ‘West’ is flexible. Japan, these days, is called part of the West!
Paul, don’t forget that Verhofstadt and suchlike remoaners are lying their heads off over this. They could not care less about the Ukraine – as their fining of Poland and Hungary at this time of great refugee pressures in both countries indicates. From Guido:
Meanwhile, the posters on this site, on spiked, etc., seem fairly clear in their views. Of course we have commenters who agree, commenters who have their own insights, commenters who started out ignorant and some with enough arrogance to remain so even in pretty basic matters, commenters who echo Neil Oliver’s initial (and respectable) “I believe nothing I have been told about Ukraine” (he then tried to find sources worthy of trust, with some success), people who are forgetting to embrace “the healing power of ‘and’ ” regarding the evil of Putin versus that of Biden, Trudeau, etc., – and the odd one or two I suspect get paid in rubles. FWIW, my ability to present a sane case for sending arms to Ukraine has, I believe, been improved by debating with them all.
C.S.Lewis said of debating honestly, not for victory, that if you did, “The very man who shouted you down may prove, 10 years later, to have been influenced by what you said.” In a sense, the Ukraine cannot afford to wait ten years. In another sense, this is just the latest example of a recurrent history for them (as familiar to those who know as reports of another anti-semitic pogrom are to a student of Jewish history, but Ukrainian history is far more obscure to most people). I greatly wish the Ukrainians better luck this time round.
‘Sovereignty Doesn’t Exist in a Globalized World’ – Guy Verhofstadt
Source: https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2019/10/16/sovereignty-doesnt-exist-in-a-globalized-world-an-interview-with-guy-verhofstadt/
It is telling that so many cosmopolitan liberal globalists now care about sovereignty for Ukraine, yet spent years telling Brits sovereignty was some kind of fascist fantasy. It’s now okay to be a ‘flag shagger’ if you’re from Lviv or Kiev, but not if you’re from Leeds or Kings Lynn.
Verhofstadt went to Kiev during the euromaidan revolution and made some airy platitude ridden speech about how the protesters were protecting European values and whatever. I can’t find much to suggest he or Belgium did much to help Ukraine except make these type of worthless speeches.
Anyway, he looks particularly creepy in this photo:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FN1A76IWQAMXuc8?format=jpg&name=medium
This website has an up-to-date tracker regarding how much money the EU has paid Russia for fossil fuel imports since the invasion of Ukraine began…..
https://beyond-coal.eu/russian-fossil-fuel-tracker/
I’m trying to find what the cash value of the EU nation’s aid to Ukraine since then has been, I’d be interested to know how it stacks up and see if or if not the EU is on net providing more economic support for Russia than Ukraine.
That would indeed be very interesting to know!
Who gives a toss? They are part of Ukraine, whose borders Russia recognised by treaty, until they decided (for no good reason) to unrecognise and attempt to take by force. And all attempts to take another country’s land by force need to be resisted, and the perpetrators need to suffer severe reprisals pour discourager les autres.
Everyone familiar with Crimea knows that the annexation to Russia had almost universal support by the local population.
Well, yeah. Because opponents of Putin don’t live very well. It takes bravery to openly oppose Putin while living in Russia. And I would doubt any secret ballot was secret under him. Many of the Crimeans left, which does not suggest “universal” support at all. The Crimean Tatars were very unhappy, because they know that Russia crushes open ethnical diversity ruthlessly, whereas the Ukraine is much more forgiving.
Unlike the current invasion, Putin did actually have a point with Crimea. Its status as Ukrainian is marginal. It was only given the Ukrainian SSR in 1954. Previously it had been Russian — due to the naval bases, I believe.
But Spain regards Gibraltar as Spanish without feeling the need to invade. Eire invading Ulster would not solve any problems. Putin is living with ideas about how countries solve their differences which are 200 years old.
The Chester Draws comment is excellent, and demonstrates the utter nonsense of how things would have been so different had NATO not hinted to Ukraine that it might join. Poor little Russia, a tiny country of only eight timezones with nuclear weapons, cowering in fear because a neighbour wants to join a defensive alliance! The horror, the effrontery!
Russia has moral agency, if its leaders so choose. The country could have behaved like a bunch of normal people. But no, the botoxed thug in the Kremlin, miserable that the Soviet empire had gone, and dreaming of the days when tanks would roll through the neighbourhood, wanted to go back to the “good old days”. And by playing lines about how macho he was, how mean he was to the “Woke”, or whatever, he got a pass from faux “realist” commentators who kept telling the world not to “poke the Bear” and leave mad Vlad to his paranoia. Strangely enough, this “realist” foreign policy default setting is also embraced by the more retarded elements on the Left, who also mourn the passing of the Soviet Union and all its works.
Bob Sykes really does take whataboutism to new levels of absurdity: “The West now finds itself defending actual 1930/40 Nazis. Not merely the infamous Azov Brigade, which proudly displays swastikas and SS lightning bolts and Privy Sektor, but also regular Ukrainian army units with the sonnenrad badge front and center.”
Those “actual 1930/40 Nazis” are long dead. I wasn’t aware they were still alive. Have they cracked longevity? Were they frozen in the Siberian tundra and then warmed up and are stumbling back to life? The Nazi smear is particularly moronic given the Jewish background of the current leader of Ukraine. As for the claim that a legit Ukrainian govt. was overthrown in 2014 is just propaganda. Perry and others who actually know the country and Ukrainians well have already called BS on this, and yet the Putinbots keep trotting this nonsense out. Also, if the Ukrainian government was so illegitimate, how come, as I said in another post, we did not see hordes of joyous Ukrainians greeting the Russian troops? The Russians are supposed to be good at that sort of staged propaganda event, so what happened?
In sum, this is about as clear-cut a case of good and evil as it gets. There are illegitimate invaders (Russia) vs brave defenders (Ukraine). That’s it. Anyone trying to tell the opposite is clearly so morally blind and degenerate that there is nothing more to be said about the matter.
Martin: It is telling that so many cosmopolitan liberal globalists now care about sovereignty for Ukraine, yet spent years telling Brits sovereignty was some kind of fascist fantasy. It’s now okay to be a ‘flag shagger’ if you’re from Lviv or Kiev, but not if you’re from Leeds or Kings Lynn.
SQOTD candidate.
Perry,
Can you delete Paul M’s address. Identity theft is easy enough with people giving it away.
I have to back I sneeze’s request.
I sneeze in threes.
Facebook is deleting me anyway – as are other places.
Soon I may have no digital identity to steal.
Fair enough – perhaps I will get round to cleaning the house and doing the garden.
Niall – yes I know that the campaign against Nigel Farage and against the Polish government is a SMEAR campaign.
But, sadly, some of the pro Putin comments (NOT by Mr Farage or the Polish government – they have not made them) are only too real.
“Rather than . . .”? I’d prefer we always do both, simultaneously, but your main point seems to be that we mustn’t because doing so empowers the baddies. What, I should tell my kids not to wear seat belts because crashes are the fault of bad drivers and we should simply blame them and stop taking precautions because we’re excusing the bad drivers by not taking risks?
It’s not hobbits versus orcs in most any world conflict. If you want to quash all mention of the (apparently “long-dead” – see above) Andriy Biletsky’s of the world, feel free, but understand that your credibility isn’t well-served by doing so.
Like many here, I think we ought to be sending huge support to Ukraine. Unlike many here, I think people are generally smart enough to understand that there are no angels, that acknowledging “our side’s” flaws ought not be forbidden.
In my political world, I end up in coalition with some truly distasteful people – but I don’t pretend they’re saints and insist that people not discuss or acknowledge them.
Country A invades Country B.
In all such cases country A is to blame for its actions.
The question is if in some such cases there ALSO is blame that should be given to other countries besides Country A. And if such a thing is theoretically possible then why and in what scenarios is it true.
Gray area, YMMV.
With regards to extreme right groups in Ukraine like Azov battalion, Wotanjugend, Right sector, Misanthropic Division etc, I recommend Aris Roussinos’s recent article and the accompanying interview:
https://unherd.com/2022/03/the-truth-about-ukraines-nazi-militias/?1647477029808
https://unherd.com/thepost/discussion-neo-nazis-in-ukraine/
It seems pretty nuanced stuff, and Roussinos has met many of the relevant people and interviewed them in the past.
The article includes a lot of links to Bellingcat articles as well which are worth checking out too.
As Roussinos notes:
Martin:
I read that, and it was good, but isn’t it a bit of a strawman argument to state the thesis that it’s a lie to call the Ukraine government “Nazi”, but then go on to talk about the “awkwardly close relationship between a liberal-democratic state supported by the West and armed proponents of a very different ideology”?
Few of the accusations that I’ve seen say that the basic central Ukraine government is Nazi, just that the erstwhile Nazis (who strike me more as simple white/straight supremacist leather-lovers than true Nazis) have a lot of power and love from the government. So it struck me that he was confirming those fears while trying not to.
(Going to read Bellingcat, which might clear this up for me.)
[…] – Commenter Martin […]
Among both politicians and the commentariat, the brutal attack on Ukraine has far too often been steeped in ‘West-washing’. A crisis in eastern Europe has now become all about the West in the eyes of politicians in Berlin, Paris, and Brussels.
Robert Tyler, in the CapX blog.