If you think that lower class yobbery is a problem in this country, as most seem to think it is, then is electing an upper class yob to be the Prime Minister the best next step in the right direction?
Perhaps it is. Perhaps a man who can look louts in the eye and say: “I know exactly what you are because I used to be exactly like you, the only difference being that I at least paid some of the bills for the havoc and misery I caused, and, being rich and lucky, I had the chance to learn a few manners, turn over a new leaf, get a job and make something of myself. You are not so lucky. Shape up now or face a future of utter misery, which I and my rich and well-connected friends will now do our considerable best to make worse for you.” It takes one to catch one, in other words. And perhaps something similar applies to dealing with foreign despots and thugs.
As with everything involving what sort of Prime Minister Mr Cameron may choose to be, we shall just have to wait and see. Meanwhile, the fact that he is now thought by millions to be the best we can now do as our nation’s senior politician is hideous proof of the failure of mass state education. Could not the great middle/working class come up with anybody? Well, John Major I suppose, and now Gordon Brown. As a long lost friend from my better-spent youth used to say: Dear oh lor!
My thanks to Clive Davis, who writes about Cameron’s Bullingdon Club past, and who links to this description of Bullingdon Club yobbery by Libby Purves, and to this diary item (scroll down a bit) by Christina Odone, who says:
They were excessive (dinners routinely ended with the trashing of the restaurant in which they were held) and exclusive – no grammar school or state school boys, no Jews were allowed (though a rather dashing Iranian did squeak through the election process in my time).
My first impression of this preposterous club was when, as an Oxford undergraduate, I was accosted in the middle of Tom Quad, in Christ Church, by a third year in his cups. He tried to grope me and then, when I shoved him away, he doubled up and was sick in the ancient fountain.
This poor impression was little improved when I grew more familiar with the all-male club: initiation rites climaxed with drunken carousing that spilt over in the street and college quad; humiliation of “outsiders” was encouraged; acts of vandalism routine.
It was more Bacchanalian feast than Brideshead Revisited, and I wondered what kind of a future lay in store for 20-year-olds who thought nothing of wrecking a Michelin-starred restaurant after having spent £1,000 a head there.
Well, a pretty good one, of course. (And I wonder just who that “dashing” Iranian was?) “We’ve all done things we regret,” Mr Cameron now says. But actually, not all of us, in fact hardly any of us, were this appalling. The fear now is that if and when Mr Cameron enters Number Ten, this open thuggery will be replaced not by anything resembling true decency or genuine political wisdom, but by thuggery on a far grander scale, legally sanctioned, and covered in and disguised by an expert layer of smarm.
I don’t suppose there’s any way we can persuade “the Mouth of the Humber” and Dave to have a fight, is there?
“Oi, Prezza! Cameron just called your pint a poof!”
The fear now is that if and when Mr Cameron enters Number Ten, this open thuggery will now be replaced not by anything resembling true decency or genuine political wisdom, but by thuggery on a far grander scale, legally sanctioned, and covered in and disguised by an expert layer of smarm.
Brian, this fence-sitting has got to stop.
It might have been better if you hadn’t relied on two women to describe an ‘all-male club’. Their descriptions cannot be totally accurate. Having said that, the Bullingdon is famously awful, but imagine the fuss if Cameron had been in the Piers Gav.
” but imagine the fuss if Cameron had been in the Piers Gav”
I can’t imagine for a second that he wasn’t.
Brian, I don’t know if you have read this book(Link) by George Walden on Cameron and his ilk, but it is pretty good.
Is this really that surprising to anyone? Toffs have always been able to behave abominably and get away with it simply because no-one believes that they are capable of it and put it down to ‘youthful hi-jinx’ or daddy waves his chequebook and any complaint magically evaporates. I can imagine decent, polite, hardworking proprietors of various venues now; ‘All a misunderstanding sir, that’s quite alright no harm done eh? Boys will be boys.’ All the while simpering and tugging their forelock
In a way this kind of behaviour is expected from the upper echelons of our society, its how they became the upper echelons in the first place.
Manners cost nothing, which is why the rich don’t have any and the poor have them in spades (some of them anyway). Its the only thing we can afford.
For the record I’m not a communist, I simply believe that money is not merit. ‘Good’ breeding doesn’t make you a decent person and respect cannot be bought it must be earned. Our current ruling class (all of them, no exceptions) have lost my respect, my vote, and my compliance. I will nolonger accept their governance. Camerons ‘youthful hi-jinx’ are just the tip of a very big and very dirty iceberg and I’ve had enough of the lot of them.
So Dave boy was a member of the “Naughty Hellfire Club”? So was he radished? And, indeed, did they hammer it home?
Actually relying on women to report on this kind of pig-ignorant upper-class yobbery is fair enough. I can imagine a woman being a thoroughly disinterested spectator to such disgusting spectacles. A bloke would have given these wankers the dry slap they richly deserved.
I can conceive of only one reason why any 20 year old male undergrad would want to belong to a male only club. I spent most of my time at university trying to get to know girls and I never once puked in an “ancient fountain”. Or met a “dashing” Iranian come to that.
Once again, mandrill, I’m with you 100%. When first elected I thought I’d give Cameron a bit of a go even when my brother said he was a “total twat” and the more time goes by the more I’m convinced that my brother’s 5 second summation is bang on target.
Nick M,
I think `total twat is excessive’: he may well not have enough commitment to merit the `total’ qualifier.
I admit to having blogged about this here(Link),
but regret that it may be a little less decisive than the readers here.
Presumably this would be the distinctly unpleasant Darius Guppy, best man of Spencer, friend to Boris Johnson and later to be convicted and jailed for robbery and fraud?
Also, £100 a head for dinner? That wouldn’t pay for the first course at Peterhouse – typical bloody Oxford skinflints.
TimC
You are wrong with your joke about me not sitting on the fence about Cameron, which I take it is what you actually think of me. But, I am a Cameron agnostic, rather than an outright hater. He is smarmy, I think. But you can be smarmy and make good decisions when you are Prime Minister, and if the smarm convinces enough other people . . .
I mean it when I say we will just have to wait and see. And I mean the stuff at the beginning of my posting about how ex-yobs can often be just the ticket.
Canker, I’m with you, undecided, and merely fearing the worst. I like your comparison, in the posting of yours that you link to, of Cameron with Henry V, another famous posh ex-yob. Just what I was thinking. I agree with you that some incident in earlier life is way better than none, but that as of now the signs are not good.
Brian,
Come on! The time for Cameron agnosticism is well past. He is a total toss-pot. I think it appalling that the Tories have to be led by such a totally unprincipled wanker as Dave “Windy Miller” Cameron when they’ve got people of real substance such as Billy Hague and DD hanging around.
Now I’m not saying that either Hague or DD would be my ideal choice but Jeez-Louise they are both a million miles ahead of that wank-staff Cameron.
And no, it’s got nothing to do with the fact that Cameron is a blue-blood and Hague went to a comp and DD was born on a council estate. These things matter not a jot to me.
What matters is that “Dave” is either going to carry on with an expansively statist agenda (if/when he becomes PM) or perhaps more perfidiously he’s going to stand on that agenda and then be a proper conservative. I think the latter unlikely but even if it did happen he would therefore show himself as the utterly unprincipled rogue he is.
The longer I live the more convinced I become that the problem isn’t which government we have but that we have a government at all.
Dave “The Boy” Cameron is as much a tosser as 95% of the rest of them. The time for agnosticism is well passed. We are rapidly entering the time where direct action is mandated. Not violence, direct action can take many forms.
Brian, I posted purely in jest in regard to the para I quoted.
I do agree that there is some (if not more) merit in having someone in the leadership role who is capable of “mixing it”. This is why I dislike the Lib Dems so much – they appear such feeble, lilly-livered, backsliding, woolly “diplodoormats” itching for their Chamberlain moment.
I wonder how many incidents of toffyobbery vs chavyobbery result in stabbings, broken ribs, A&E or death for the targets? Not sure if “never kick a man when he is down” still holds sway. Frankly, I am disgusted that the CPS and courts do not reinforce this maxim by dishing out attempted murder whenever a group kicks a fallen individual.
Toffyobbery vs chavyobbery, In my opinion the only difference is that the toffs have had enough of an education to know how far to take it and how much they can get away with.
From a young age we are told that everyone is equal and that people should be treated the same no matter their background, gender, race or religion. Is this not misleading? An Eton boy who behaves in a yobbish fashion is by no means treated the same way as someone from a sink estate (for the reasons stated in my previous comment). In the eyes of the chav there is no such thing as equality, he sees it for the lie it is and therefore has no respect for the authority which, he feels, is oppressing him. In the eyes of the Eton boy there is no such thing as equality and he also sees it for the lie that it is, the difference being that he knows the lie maintains his position and so he maintains it. The chav has nothing (almost literally) to lose and sees no benefit in behaving in a socially acceptable fashion. The toff has nothing to gain (he already has it all) and likewise sees no benefit in behaving in a socially acceptable fashion. Neither places any value on manners, respect (true respect, not the NuLab corruption), honour or basic decency, unless they can gain something from them.
Also Nick M, thanks. I’ve been groping around for exactly the right word to desribe Cameron, but I think a simple Wanker really hits the bullseye…and it was in front of my eyes all along.
Well I am not upper class. My father came from the gutter (and was heading back in that direction by the time I was born – he had been betrayed), and I am writing this from a council house having spent most of life as a security guard.
I suppose I might be considered “privately educated” (as I was taught to read by an old lady in a village near Kettering), but I went to a state school (they just did not teach anything there).
However, I have met many upper class people with very good manners indeed.
Also some people I have met with very bad manners have been lower class (benefit class – I do not think “working class” is the correct term for people who have never worked). Although I have also met lower class people (including people who have been on benefits all their lives) who have good manners.
I have also met some rich people with bad manners, but they tend to have been people who started out poor. They (and it is a minority of the people I have met who started out poor and became rich) seem to think that being a success means that people who are a success are not worth being polite to.
Oddly enough I can not think of a single member of the gentry or aristocracy I have met (and I have met quite a few) who has not been polite. Whether they have money or not (it is often forgotten that some upper class people are not well off), they seem to feel that people who do not have money are not somehow “bad” people who would be a success if only they had “tried harder” (or some other rot). Indeed they regard the great lottery that is life with some detachment (even if they have become poor).
I wish I had their strength of character.
As for Mr Cameron. Well I have not met the man – but he seems to be a sort of upper class person I have never met (I am fortunate in this).
canker,
Well, touche! I read your piece on the boy David and thought it most excellent. Obviously, you had more time to ponder than my brother did when after 5 secs of seeing Dave on TV he just muttered “wanker” but I’ll go with your assessment. BTW you state that you’re a mathematician (good) are you prepared to divulge a little more details to this erstwhile theoretical physicist?
Paul,
Interesting observations on the upper classes. I recall a fascinating discussion I once had with the Lord of Chillingham Castle He was a true gent, very well-travelled and incredibly urbane. He was also somewhat reticent about admitting to owning the whole pile which I took as being both modest and a tacit admission that having to look after it was as much a curse as a blessing.
I could tell he was a Lord because his shoes were old but clearly hand-made and expensive. The patina gives much away. You can tell a lot about someone from their shoes. For example, I wear steel toe-capped Cat combat boots mostly and this is because I live in Manchester. The rest of the time I wear Nikes and that’s for running away – also because I live in Manchester.
I actually rather like Manchester but I know that significant portions of it are lethal.
Brian,
Thanks. I really hope that he can pull himself together…it’s never too late.
Nick M,
Also thanks.
As an academic in modern Britain I don’t want to give sufficient information to identify myself (to my colleagues, who would uniformly condemn most of what I have to say and probably attempt to get me sacked). Let’s just say I’m a probabilist in a successful department (who, from time to time, does some statistics).
Nick: you should start a blog:-)
Nick M.
I went to Manchester several times (as you know I lived in Bolton for a year).
It just seemed like a smaller version of London to me – I suppose that will irritate both Manchester and London people.
I am told that the main violence is away from city centre and I admit that I did not visit Moss Side and so on. I just went about in the area between the railway stations (why does Manchester have four railways stations, although I am told that the Salford one is technically outside Manchester – Leeds has only one to cover a not much smaller population, of course if one means “Greater Manchester” there are about a dozen railway stations each one in walking distance of the next couple, and I am not talking about tram stations which are quite different).
However, I have (by accident – I was just walking about) visited Toxteth in Liverpool and there was no trouble.
However, I did notice that small groups of young men did cross the road (to the opposite side to me) whenever I happened to walk in their direction.
A similar thing happens in the supposedly violent areas of London, and I do not understand it (I am only 5,8 and I am not well built). It is just one of the strange things about the world I suppose.
Maybe you should change out of your uniform, Paul…
Will El Dave promise to cut global warming by removing the floodlights from Parliament House?
Thought not.
An interesting bunch of trots here, not exactly your typical Samiz crowd.
Why is toffyobbery better than chavyobbery? The toffs are playing at it for a day or two per term, while the Chavs are living it for years. Further, the toffs take responsibility for the damage they cause and pay for the trouble. Chavs, erm, don’t.
So a few blokes get right trashed and make asses of themselves. No real harm done to anyone. Chavs will kill you and not even bother taking your wallet.
There’s nothing here but some disgusting envy on the part of the commenters. I sentence you all to re-read Uncle Milty’s works and the Fountainhead. Then you can explain to the class how you realise that violent criminals who care not a whit for the life of others are rather a different sort than people who drink too much and pay for the damage that they may cause.
Now I think that Bullingdon is stupid, and would beat the living shit out of them if I owned the restaurant, but that’s because I’m also exceptionally rigourous on property rights, to an extent that is beyond illegal in the UK. This class warfare tripe is nothing better than communist trash, and deserves the same respect.
NOOOO! Not the Fountainhead! PLEEEAASE!
That was the most Gawd-awful unreadable seven hundred pages of crap I’ve ever read in my life! The crud they shoveled at me in the government schools was easier to follow! The Colorado Revised Statutes Pertaining to Fraud at Article 5 of Title 18 had a more compelling plot! “Why Mommy Is a Democrat” made more sense!”
I promise to ignore toffs (whatever they are) and shoot chavs (whatever they are) at every opportunity if I don’t have to read the Fountainhead again!