The air attack on the Beirut airport in Lebanon has put me in an unusual position: I must condemn Israel’s act as one of egotistical stupidity of the highest order. it is in no one’s interest to push a newly liberated and tentatively democratic Lebanon back into the throes of barbarism and chaos from whence it so recently came. I cannot help but imagine this attack has solidified even the most open minded of the Lebanonese population into a common distaste of their southern neighbor. Should this cause violence amongst factions with Lebanon to flare again, it will be an open invitation for Syria to once more crush Lebanon under its dictatorial tank treads.
Their action is about as negative to American and British strategic interests as it is possible to get. I am certain they are getting exceedingly harsh and less than diplomatic words behind the scenes words from Condileeza Rice and from Tony Blair’s envoys as well.
The damage this has done to Israel’s cause is almost inestimable.
You have lost an awful lot of friends guys. Actions have consequences.
Remember not so long ago?
Wrong. It is very much in the Islamists interests. I am pro-Isreali but when I saw those missile strikes on Beruit’s civilian airport, I was horrified. This is psychopathic behaviour.
The psychopathic behaviour is ending a 6 year disengagement and murdering and killing Israeli soldiers.
Bombing Beirut’s airport is mistaken targetting though. The targets they should be bombing are in Damascus.
“murdering and killing” = “murdering and kidnapping”
I have mixed feelings… yes, attacking the airport is strange behaviour but Hezbollah MUST be destroyed. Moreover the Syrian and (above all) Iranian governments must also be destroyed.
Yet invasion has been tried before and Israel was not able to succeed in the long run. Hard to know what to do.
I think I would start by strengthening the Lebanese economy; building up the Lebanese tourist industry; strengthening their will to a democratic future; and perhaps kicking the shit out of Syria.
Israel has assisted the al Qaeda by their actions. Personally, I would suggest the US and UK cut off all military aide to Israel until such tim e as the Israeli PM prostrates himself at the feet of the *elected* head of Lebanon, begs forgiveness and offers to pay triple damages for all harm done to the Beirut airport and the Lebanese economy.
This is an absurd and psychopathic act on Israel’s part.
I am in a white fury over this, as you can no doubt tell.
I disagree. If Israel intends to destroy Hizballah, it is necessary to eliminate:
1) any transportation route for weapons and reinforcements to arrive. The Beirut airport was used for such purposes. This also explains the naval blockade and the destruction of highways leaving Lebanon
2) the transportation routes out, to ensure the captured soldiers aren’t sent to Iran as has been the rumored intent.
This is war. Israel is fighting to win.
Oh, and btw. There is probably no better way on earth to strengthen Hizbollah’s position than to send Lebanon back into Syrian occupied failed state status where the lads have an open hand and free run of the entire place without even a pretext.
The Israeli’s have acted with such apalling stupidity that I am at an utter loss for words.
Israel’s actions run counter to the national interests of the US and UK. They are disastrous in a long term and will accomplish nothing good.
I wish you ill.
Calm down Dale.
Do you want Israel to engage in “measured” and “proportionate” responses, so we can return to the world of a week ago?
Israel is unwilling, and seeks to end the Hizballah problem once and for all, and since the supposedly sovereign Lebanese have done nothing to restrict Hizballah’s operations within Lebanon, Israel is doing what is now necessary to disable Hizballah, which unfortunately involves destroying or disabling most of Lebanon’s transport infrastructure, since it was/is used extensively by Hizballah in its supply lines and operations.
Israel could take it so long as Hezballah kept the fighting confined to the Shebaa farms. Hezballah figured that that game wasn’t much fun any more, and decided to expand the fight. What exactly were the Israelis supposed to do- use harsher language? Since Lebanon could not control its own borders, and since terrorists were launching artillery attacks and kidnappings from their side of the line, the Israelis were not presented with a huge range of policy options.
The Israeli government is not responsible for shepherding Lebanon’s fragile democratic movement. The Israeli government is responsible for defending the lives of Israelis. If the Lebanese want the Merkavas to go away, then they have to make Hezballah stop launching rockets into Israel and force them to hand back the kidnapped soldiers. Even the Saudis are blaming Hezballah for events unfolding as they have.
If an anti-Mexican militia were operating in the U.S. near the border, launching missile attacks, killing and kidnapping Mexican civilians and soldiers, would it be the U.S. government’s responsibility to stop them?
Of course.
And if the government did nothing to stop the militia, the Mexican government would be justified in doing what’s necessary to protect its soldiers and civilians (including disabling U.S. infrastructure that the militia is using to carry out its operations).
Would you argue the above?
If so, on what grounds, and if not, why does Israel get a double-standard?
The situation here seems rather difficult, and I don’t actually know that enough information is currently in the public domain to come to firm conclusions.
It is, presumably, not unusual to expect a neighbouring country to take reasonable action against terrorists based there.
It is also presumably the case that some organisations may have both a political and terrorist role, with hopes that the former is in the ascendent.
However, it would be prudent for any government tolerating the political wing of a (previously) terrorist organisation to keep a very close eye on it, and to come down hard the instant there is any obvious terrorist activity.
Given that the terrorist target is Israel, it strikes me as quite likely that they would have been aware of any terrorist build-up or change in threat. However, though that strikes me as likely, it is not guaranteed to be the case.
Again, in similar vein, the Israeli Government might (or might not) have warned the Lebanese Government of what was about to happen. Also, what would happen if the Lebanese Government failed to act in a way that Israel judged an appropriate response.
Given the above doubts, it would be useful to know if there is any firmer evidence on what happened when, with how much prior knowledge or expectation, by whom; also what diplomatic communications there has been between the two governments, and when.
Only then can one make an informed decision as to whether the Israeli actions are, given the overall timescales: excessive, proportionate, or somewhere in between. Likewise whether any Lebanese anti-terrorist action has been appropriate and timely.
Best regards
“The Israeli government is not responsible for shepherding Lebanon’s fragile democratic movement.”
But *our* interests are for doing so. That is why we are not on the same side this time. I would pour support into the infant Lebanese democracy to help it fend off the attack. And then help them get control of their own lands.
The US should take Lebanon’s side.
I wonder how long it will be before those Syrian forces come in to ‘help’? Or didn’t anyone think that far ahead?
I don’t think you’re giving the Lebanese people enough credit. I’ve read on a few Lebanese blogs that though a large proportion of the population is, of course, angry at Israel for bombing Beirut, they are even more angry at Hizb’allah for provoking the Israelis in the first place. The Lebanese don’t, on the whole, like Hizb’allah, and it seems to me that they can see that Israel were forced to respond. I even read a comment somewhere (can’t remember where, it was very late last night and I was astonishingly tired) from a Lebanese guy to the effect of “If I was in charge of Israel, I’d be doing exactly the same.”
I submit that supporting the infant Lebanese democracy can be most efficiently accomplished by shooting as many Hezballahites as possible. They are Iranian catspaws and always have been. They can serve no possible function in modern Lebanon save as proxies for a war the rest of Lebanon wants no part in. It’s regrettable that the process of killing them requires the blockade and the airport bombing, but when even the Saudis are blaming you for trouble with Israel, you know that you’ve gone too far. Hezballah has given the forces of sanity an opportunity to clean house with minimal international hectoring. I think we’d be fools not to take it.
Hey, if you want NATO troops in Lebanon, I’m with you there.
And exactly how do these actions effect the Hizbullah? Are they standing out on the runway waving flags saying ‘shoot me?” Are they walking down the road with Hizbullah t-shirts with bullseye targets on them?
Get real. The only way you are ever going to get Hizbullah out of Lebanon is if the democracy takes root and grows and the economy grows enough that a free people have the resources to throw the bastards out.
Israel is helping Hizbullah’s cause.
“And exactly how do these actions effect the Hizbullah? Are they standing out on the runway waving flags saying ‘shoot me?'”
No, they’re waiting in what’s left of their buildings, thinking “gee, we’re starting to run a little low on the Katyusha rockets, I wonder when Iran is going to send us the next shipment by airfreight, like they always do?” A few of them are also having very frantic discussions on how to get those Israeli hostages out of the country by air, like the plan was a couple of days ago.
Dale, that’s what’s been happening for the last few years. Democracy has been growing, free exchange of thought has been growing, and tourists are going back there. Makes no difference to Hizb’allah, they have the guns and the money from Iran and Syria. Growing Lebanese democracy isn’t miraculously going to get rid of them. Force is necessary. And as the Lebanese government hasn’t used force (even allowing a Hizb’allah politician in parliament), it seems it’s up to the Israelis to do it.
I am inclined to agree. But I sure hope the Israelis do not destablize the anti-Syrian elements in Lebanon. What Isreal needs to do is be VERY discriminating about who gets clobbered. Perhaps the myth that we are not all at war already with Iran needs to be ended. They are backing Hezbollah and making the weapons killing British & American troopsn in Iraq. Perhaps some of those Israeli bombs need to be landing in Tehran and Damascus.
The free lebanese government decided to let Hizballah carry on it’s own private war with Israel from lebanon territory
Actions have consequences.
Dale
You said it yourself
As I have said before, if Israel decides that destabilizing Lebanon and turning it back into a Syrian fiefdom is in their interests, then we are at odds. That is not in the interests of the US or UK and any actions which undermine the efforts to build them into a strong democracy should be dealt with harshly.
1. The reason for the attack on the airport is because there are rumors that the Hezbollah intend to dispatch its 2 Israeli hostages to Iran. Israel is doing everything to prevent that by shutting down the airport and blockading its ports.
2. That so-called “newly liberated and tentatively democratic Lebanon” has a cabinet and parliament that include representatives from the Hezbollah. There’s no reason to take that kind of government seriously.
3. Strengthening the Lebanese economy is a project of years, perhaps decades. What does Dale Amon intend to do about the 2 Israeli hostages now? Leave them to rot?
4. Dale Amon is concerned about possible Syrian incursion into Lebanon. They won’t do any such thing because Israel will take care of them.
5. What is counter to the interests of the US and Britain is acquiescence in the face of terrorism. Dale Amon’s “white fury” is misdirected. He should remember that Israel did not launch these operations until Hamas and Hezbollah raided into Israeli territory.
These actions affect Hezballah by cutting their supply lines, destroying their missile depots, killing any of them stupid enough to fight, and getting the rest of Lebanon furious with them for provoking the fight in the first place. No one in that part of the world is under any delusions over who started this. It’s just further West that people seem to be confused over the proper response to rocket attacks, ambushes, and kidnappings.
I do not expect the diplomatic exchanges between Washington and Tel Aviv would be pleasant to listen to at present.
You are acting in your interests; those interests are very counter to mine. I would say it is as if you had just delivered a dump truck load of the highest quality crystalline urea into my swimming pool and are now smiling about what a good idea it was.
Incidentally, how large a budget have you targetted for rebuilding and assistance after you are done? Nothing? That’s what I thought.
I agree a weakened Lebanon just makes the country more unrulable and plays into the hands of those who want more death and destruction in the area.
Especially as those who lose there livelyhoods will be forced into the hands of Hezballah via their ‘welfare’ programs
I understand everyone…..I think
Hooowever…….If your adopted kids were throwing stones at mine from your back-yard……and you did nothing…..be sure that I bloody well would.
If they were killing them…………………?
The government is not your friend. Your neighbour’s government will kill you and your entire family without a second thought, if that is a side-effect of something it is doing to ingratiate itself with those people wherever they are whose support it needs to stay in power.
I submit Israeli domestic politics are more relevant than the strategic situation. The country is still the region’s 800 lb gorilla. It can do what it likes militarily. And what it likes, thanks to its highly fragmented democracy and wavering between civil society and military establishment, is not necessarily consistent. Or nice.
– Dale Amon
Actually, the exchange is reasonably good:
President Bush defends Israel’s right to self-defense.
The president will not pressure Israel to cease its operations.
Dale, in what freaky bizzaro world do you think there exists an electorate content to let themselves be targetted by terrorists based in the country next door whilst:
“strengthening the Lebanese economy; building up the Lebanese tourist industry; strengthening their will to a democratic future” ?
And don’t say that Israel should have been content to bomb the known Hezbollah positions in southern lebanon, that sort of ‘gesture’ military action would be about as effective as Clinton’s afghan farm bombing missions.
The Govt of Lebanon must take resonsibility for the actions originating from within their borders. Especially when those actions are carried out by the armed wing of a party with cabinet positions. And as for
“I would suggest the US and UK cut off all military aide to Israel until such tim e as the Israeli PM prostrates himself at the feet of the *elected* head of Lebanon”
That’s the dumbest statement I can recall reading on this blog. Frothing ranting rubbish.
VivaElFuego… Is that your AIM name too? UIUC?
Calm down, Dale. I don’t quite understand Israel’s reasonings for targeting Lebanon. I have been pleased to see their responses being quite limited. They’ve targeted routes into and out of the country and locations where Hizbullah was known to be. They warned the civilians in a southern Beirut area to leave before they hit it it with targeted weapons (as opposed to the scattershot Katyushas of Hizbullah). Israel is not firing indiscriminately at Lebanon’s civilian areas. That action would be worthy of condemnation.
I’ve read many postings from Lebanese bloggers and on discussion boards. They’re pissed at Hizbullah. That’s a good thing. maybe they’ll work to rid Lebanon of the group.
The idea that Hizbullah are sitting somewhere waiting for resupply is just absurd. If southern Lebanon is anything like Iraq, if every Hizbullah member dropped dead tomorrow, Archaeologists would still be digging up Katyusha’s in the year 4000.
As to stopping them from moving the kidnapped soldier out of Dodge… if they can’t get him out, they’ll just do to him what they do to ours in Iraqi. Kill and mutilate him and toss the body out on a dump somewhere before they fade invisibly back into the wood work.
This is a total waste of effort; it will accomplish nothing good, and likely do a great deal of harm.
This is a SpecOps kind of job, possibly with air support. If you don’t know where the guy is, I doubt you are ever going to see him alive anyway.
This is just political showmanship for the electorate. It’s destructive in the long term and a waste of effort in the short term.
To Dale Amon:
You may be right about the Hezbollah murdering the hostages. But that does not relieve Israel of its obligation to protect its citizens. Isolating Beirut may give Israel more time to free the hostages.
I don’t know whether it’s “political showmanship.” What I do know is that your counsel of despair and inaction is even worse. It will tell the Hezbollah that they can kidnap Israeli citizens at will with no fear of consequences.
I felt pretty cheerful on seeing the news that Israel has finally decided to take action.
Decisive action is what is needed here. Not tentative steps, not strongly worded condemnations in the UN, not economic reprisals. Israel needs to make it known to her terror-collaborating neighbors that if they play with the flame they are going to get burned.
They should not spend one goddamn dime on it.
The Lebanese have been trying to get rid of Hizbollah anyways and seems they are content to allow Israel to destroy them. Once Hizbollah is taken out the Lebanese government can move in and finally take control of that part of the country. Israel should pay for reconstruction costs.
For those who may be interested. Radioblogger.com has interviews, (both readable and MP3 audio) with the likes of Mark Steyn, Victor Davis Hanson, James Lileks and Christopher Hitchens talking in regards to the Israeli-Hezbollah conflict happening right now. It makes for interisting reading.
Radioblogger.com (Link)
Why should they pay for anything, jurassic? Will Lebanon be paying for all the damage Hezbollah has inflicted on Israel while using Lebanese territory as a base?
Many in Lebanon are hoping the Israelis rid them of Hezbollah once and for all. Here’s a quote from a blogposter I copied from Little Green Footballs:
A message to the IDF
Please free our beloved tortured country from these crazed mullah-followers. Free our land from these bloody syrian and iranian agents. we want to live in peace.
Please take caution to focus your attack where they are and not attack christian areas. we support you and bear you no ill will.
May god bless you.
Lebanese christian, Damour area (07.14.06)
LGF is not one of my favorite sites, but they published a series of these type posts from Lebanon that were enlightening to me.
Bombadil, as Dale keeps pointing out – that is not the issue.
We wanted a democracy in Lebanon. We were, collectively, happy when they kicked out the Syrians.
The pattern of behaviour we’re now settling into to is setting up nacsent deomcracies and then letting them fall apart at the first sign of trouble. Afganistan, Iraq, Lebanon… you can only do that a finite amount of times before people stop believing the “freedom is good” rhetoric we’re using in the West.
This is insanely dumb from a political and a strategic position – with our armed forces bogged down in Iraq; Afganistan doing what it has traditionally done for 200 years; and trouble in North Korea. This is really the last thing we needed.
First of all, I don’t see how cutting out the cancer of Hezbollah from Lebanon will in any way hurt incipient democracy there.
Second, we want democracies which do not allow terror organizations to operate unhindered from their territory. We don’t give a damn about “democracies” which only serve as diplomatic shields for terror.
Third, standing up to aggression is never dumb. Weakness in the face of aggression provokes more aggression – the most cost-effective policy is to make sure your enemies understand that messing with you will cost them dearly.
Fourth, our forces are not “bogged down” in Iraq. Stop drinking the al-Guardian koolaid.
You don’t get rid of cockroaches by pretending they are not there. You get rid of cockroaches by uncovering their hiding places and killing them. When you uncover them it looks, for a moment, as though you suddenly “created” a massive roach infestation, but you know that it was always there – you are just in the initial stages of removing the bugs.
Lebanon is suffering the consequences of not controlling its own territory. To say they were on the way to being free of Syrian and Hezbollah control is blindness, leading to irrationality like Dale Amon’s. I must agree with another commentator that this statement is the worst rubbish I have ever seen on this blog. The Lebanese majority are just like all the other citizens of Islamic countries who are perfectly happy to let Al Qaeda operate from their soil and then disclaim responsibility for their actions and whine about the inevitable outcome.
“I wonder how long it will be before those Syrian forces come in to ‘help’? Or didn’t anyone think that far ahead?”
Mr. Amon, those of us who are serious about analysis, rather than falling into the proportionalist rhetoric, are champing at the bit for Syria to make precisely this mistake… and nothing would be better for Lebanon’s long-term prospects than for them to do so.
By hitting the airport, the Israelis are doing two things:
1. Cutting Hizballah resupply
2. Protecting the Lebanese by keeping civilians out of the flight lanes.
Sir, respectfully, your heart’s in the right place, but your analysis is seriously off.
First of all, I don’t see how cutting out the cancer of Hezbollah from Lebanon will in any way hurt incipient democracy there.
Didn’t think you would which is part of the problem. Bombing things rarely makes people feel good, even the ones not involved. It has a great polarizing effect. Bombing cities in WW2 was meant to break down the will of the populations and turn them against the war too.
Third, standing up to aggression is never dumb. Weakness in the face of aggression provokes more aggression – the most cost-effective policy is to make sure your enemies understand that messing with you will cost them dearly.
Arab forces haven’t won a single engagement against Israel in the last 40 years. Israel has always responded to violence with massive retalitatory force, every time it costs the Palestinians and others dear.
So, why haven’t they stopped? How come Hamas got elected? By your logic that should not have happened and there should be stability in the region.
our forces are not “bogged down” in Iraq
Oh, ok, so we could pull them out and redeploy them against Iran next year? Great…
They’re stuck there, live with it. If that isn’t bogged down, I don’t know what is. We’ve a sizeable percentage of deployable UK and US forces locked in one place for several years with no sensible exit policy. That’s a bog. It might not be a quagmire, but it’s early days yet.
You don’t get rid of cockroaches by pretending they are not there.
No you don’t. Nor do you tear down your house and rebuild it.
We’ve had this infestation for decades and the Israelis have been killing them for decades and they’re still there. Maybe its time to get in a new roach control firm who have better tactics?
Unlike Iraq and the United States, Lebanon is not thousands of miles away from Israel.
The Hiz, which has two cabinet ministers in the government of Lebanon, is determied to exterminate every last Jew (by the way Dale they are not too keen on Christians or athiests either).
Iran funds the Hiz and they do not go to the toilet with orders from the Iranians. If you want to know (or even if you do not) the recent missile attacks on Israel were designed to draw attention away from the Iranian nuke question. As was the cross border raid. Of course the Hiz are Shia Arabs and the Iranians are Persian Shia – but they live with that.
As for Israel’s “extreme” response:
Israel could (for example) have destroyed the aircraft on the ground at the airport – not just blown a hole in a couple of runways (aircraft took off for Jordan later) and turned a few fuel stores into smoke signals.
Mostly the Israeli response has been gesture politics so far (blowing up roads when everyone knows there are side roads – and so on). Israel could have killed many thousands of Arabs over the last few days if it had the will to do so.
Instead the Israeli airforce has been dropping leaflets in Hiz areas telling people to get out before attacks are made. The same people who were dancing in the streets over the dead Jews a few days ago – and vote for the Hiz and ARE the Hiz (oh did you not know that the “civilians” are armed to the teeth).
In the past talk of “Israeli ruthlessness” (in the media and academia) has normally hidden Israeli half heartedness. For example, not all the Arabs are in the “West Bank” or “the Gaza strip” – about 20% of the population of what is left of Israel is Arab (you see Dale the much attacked “driving out of the Arabs” in 1948 was not exactly as you have been taught). And the number of Arabs in Israel increase every day (they have babies Dale).
As for “the U.S. should take the Lebanese side”.
Well I confess that might be an interesting move. At least the Shia in Iraq might go for that, and the Sunni hate the Jews more than they hate the Shia.
So the various head hackers in Iraq might become allies of the United States – at least till all the Jews were dead.
I do not think Israel can survive in the long term. There are always more Arabs, and one can defeat them a thousand time and still have to fight them a thousand more times. Sometimes it is possible to ally with some Arabs (even Muslim Arabs) but relying on that in the long term is a little on the silly side.
Certainly “talking” to groups like the Hiz or Hamas will just bring the extermination of Israel closer – and add humilation to death.
All Israel can do is to fight as hard as it can (which it certainly is NOT at the moment) and hope for a change of days (however unlikely this may be).
In the old days there were quite a lot of Christian Arabs (the old Lebanese army was mostly Christian – the modern one is mostly Shia), but a lot of Christian Arabs are either gone from the Middle East or dead (and no Dale it was not the wicked Jews who killed them) and the birth rate of what is left is not good.
United States interests.
True enough Dale, the existance of the Jewish state most likely is not in U.S. interests. And I would not oppose a cut off of aid (at least that might convince the Jews that they can not afford a mega Welfare State and get them voting Lukud again).
However, call a spade a spade.
If you want the Jews dead (or do not care) just say so. It is a respectable point of view, held by a great many European philosophers and theologians down the centuries.
But do not pretend you are giving friendly advice, or that that the coalition government in Jerusalem are somehow tough guys who are being “extreme” (most of that bunch are in favour of making almost any deal with “moderate Arabs” but they have found that moderate Arabs do not hold the whip hand in the Middle East).
Basically you sound like a B.B.C. broadcast.
I remember you on Iraq. All in favour of the war (when I did not know what it was supposed to be about), and then comming over all upset about civilian deaths, although some of those civilians would have gladly eaten your eyeballs whilst you were still alive.
Still (as I admited above) I can not fault your logic.
Logically the United States should betray the Jews (after all Israel let the Lebanese Christians down long ago – admitedly under pressure from United States and the rest of the “international community”).
Indeed from a strictly logical point of view the United States should take (at least verbally) the Arab side. It might get some cheaper oil that way (at least for a while).
I suppose what I object to is that you present the move as somehow “moral” motivated by your caring for Lebanese civilians. Perhaps you really do think like that.
Tell me, did you protest much about the civil war and then the Syrian invasions (dating back to the 1970’s)? Perhaps you did.
As for ruthless Israel.
What would you say if Israel actually did decide to be ruthless – i.e. go in and kill as many Hiz as possible?
Perhaps you would insist that no civilians be killed, as if there were any possible way of avoiding that with modern weapons.
And as if any real distiction between “civilians” and “military” can be made in this context anyway.
Like the Iranians the Hiz are not feminists but they are quite happy with female bombers or with child ones, and they only wear uniforms when it suites them.
Many American combat troops have found (when dealing with Shia or Sunni) that anybody can try and kill you at any time. If you wait for the enemy to prove that that they are the enemy you are likely to be dead.
The difference is that United States had a choice about becomming involved in these places (perhaps even after 9/11), Israel does not.
“There are many nice Muslim Arabs” – yes I know that is true, but it does not actually alter any of the above.
Will Dale and the rest please explain to me how allowing Hezbollah to continue operating unhindered will somehow strengthen Lebanon’s nascent democracy? The way I see it, Lebanon’s chances as a democracy will be greatly improved once Hezbollah is weakened beyond return, and the latter is exactly what this military operation is aimed at achieving. Indeed, I wouldn’t be surprised if the US and other countries were not waiting in the wings with promises of development aid for the damage done to Lebanon’s infrastructure and economy. At the very least, Hezbollah’s destruction will put an end to Syria and Iran’s increasing attempts at re-asserting control over the country.
And Dale your comments about the airport bombing seem overly emotional. How can you dismiss the airport’s importance as a logistical resupply node so cavalierly? So what if Hezbollah have thousands of rockets, what they do not have are inexhaustible supplies of firearms, ammunition and explosives, and by preventing those from getting to them in large quantities the Israelis can drastically shorten the length of this conflict. Logistics do matter.
Looking at it objectively, it’s clear that the IDF is going out of its way to avoid hitting targets in Lebanon that have nothing to do with Hezbollah. This is a wise strategy, and far from the image of a rampant, uncaring Israel that some here seek to display. Israel’s actions now are not contrary to the broader goals of the US and UK in the war on terror, and in fact if handled right this might do those goals a large amount of good.
I’m with the vast majority of posters here in supporting Israel’s action. This is all one war and Britain and Israel are fighting on the same side.
Should this cause violence amongst factions with Lebanon to flare again, it will be an open invitation for Syria to once more crush Lebanon under its dictatorial tank treads.
I have no idea why this scenario would weigh so heavily on your mind. Syria holds an extremely weak hand. If the Assad regime has the slightest instinct for self-preservation, then they will view any overt militarism as an existential crap-shoot. And well they should.
Hitting the airport makes perfect sense militarily. Israel is doing everything it has to in order to keep Syria, Iran and Hezballah from moving the captives out or moving men and weapons in. That’s why they hit bridges and airports and roads. So according to you Israel should sit on her hands and take blow after blow? Why has a democratic, free Lebanon allowed these terrorists to proliferate on the southern border? Why should little Israel who has wrung out painful concession after painful concession and never received anything , ANYTHING in return from an enemy who promised day after day to destroy Israel, do nothing? Israel has a right to exist and defend her citizens and soldiers even if you don’t think so..
Oh by the way everyone, please stop confusing democracy with freedom.
Hamas and the rest are democratic.
As for the basic question (the existance of Israel). I wish the country had never been refounded – it is just in a bad area of the world.
However, some Jews never did leave the area (even in 1890 the Ottoman census showed Jews as the largest group in Jerusalem) and many others (secular as well as religious) could not ignore the “next year in Jerusalem” stuff.
I might have argued that the dream of secular Zionism was as almost as daft as the economics some of the Zionists beleived in, but they were people who looked out at the world and viewed a place where their wonderful dreams could all come true (rather than the shithole I see when I look at the world).
Yes they were far more like Dale than me.
And after all in business and in science Dale’s attitude is a lot better than mine.
They really believed that the could make friends with most Arabs who would be happy with a Jewish state.
Still it is water under the bridge now. Israel exists and so its people fight to continue to exist.
The Jews of Israel kill and, no doubt, they sometimes kill the innocent (war is like that), but they would not pass the magic button test.
Just picture in your mind’s eye a button – if you press the button all the Arabs magically die.
Most Israeli’s (even the killers) would not press the button.
Most (although far from all) Arabs would press a magic button killing all the Jews.
That is why, in the end, the Arabs will win – although it may take a long time.
P.S. I would not press a magic button killing all my enemies. For all my ruthless talk, true strength of purpose is not my way.
“Israel’s actions run counter to the national interests of the US and UK. They are disastrous in a long term and will accomplish nothing good.
I wish you ill.”
Dear Dale: Your vile reaction to Israel’s self defense is par for the course. It so typical of the arrogant Leftwing narcissists in Europe. We are used to this reaction. To hell with your national interest. Do not expect us to lay down and die for you again. What does Israel defending herself have to do with you? Israel should turn the cheek to terrorist attacks and kidnapping for your self interest? Quit blaming Israel for the disaster occurring in Londonistan. That’s your fault only.
I just wish people would give up the absurd idea what what is good for Israel is automatically good for the USA. Sure, Israel has the right to defend itself but if what they do is counter to US national interest, opposing Israeli actions should be a no brainer rather than a cause for heart searching. Israel wants to ignore the USA’s interests? Fine, lets see how long they survive on their own.
I tend to see more of the “not that I have anything againt Jews, but those damn Zionazi kikes need to quit oppressing their noble Arab neighbors and just accept their own destruction” viewpoint than I see people who “automatically” believe that anything that is good for Israel is good for us.
How about this: things that Israel does against Islamofascism are in our interest, because we have a common enemy. If they stir up a nest of hornets it doesn’t mean that they create the hornets – they just reveal them.
Hezbollah is not our ally. Syria, Lebanon, et al are our allies only if they actively scourge the terrorist elements from their midst – which they do not.
Israel is our ally – they fight on the same side, against the same enemies.
“Incidentally, how large a budget have you targetted for rebuilding and assistance after you are done? Nothing? That’s what I thought.”
Get real–Israel is in a fight for her life and she’s supposed to be setting aside funds for rebuilding and assistance?
Let the Arab countries provide the funds. Perhaps they could divert a few petrodollars from their terrorist funds for the purpose?
The answer to those countries in the region who are whining about Israel’s actions is simple: stop aiding terrorists and there will be no need to bomb you.
Very curious. The first time in my life I ever opposed Israeli actions and I am suddenly classed with anti-semites. Fascinating. I am sure many of my close friends in the Jewish neighborhood I lived in for 20 years would find that awsomely humorous.
Second, I do not challenge a right to defense. I challenge stupid moves that will leave israel and the world less secure and less safe in the long run than they are now. A few bombs are not going to do more than take out a few buildings and a few expendable stooges. The leaders will just rent new buildings.
As a number seem to indicate, the goal is to blow up a few things, trash the place, get everyone pissed off and after some suitable period go home and leave everyone else there to suffer. At least the US and the UK fight wars with the “you break it, you bought it” attitude. I am far from certain we will succeed in Iraq, but at least we are fighting the enemy in a way which has a chance of succeeding.
If Israel had gone after Syria, I would have been cheering. Instead israel is simply going after another one of the victims.
I really do not see what the win conditions are. I do not see any upside in the attack on Lebanon.
I see lots and lots and lots of downsides.
Israel is not firing indiscriminately at Lebanon’s civilian areas. That action would be worthy of condemnation.
Over 60 Lebanese civilians are dead. 2 Israeli civilians are. Who is firing more indiscriminately?
They’ve targeted routes into and out of the country and locations where Hizbullah was known to be
And television stations, transmission towers, etc. – again, killing civilians in the process.
Anyone who thinks Israel’s attack on Lebanon is going to rein in Hizbollah is completely ignorant of the past. For those of you who believe this, take some time to educate yourself on the circumstances under which Hizbollah was founded and under which it grew.
The Israeli attack on Lebanon will, with certainty, accomplish a few things: it will kill Lebanese civilians in numbers completely disproportionate to the number of Israeli civilians killed, it will lead to the Israeli government participating or allowing war crimes as it did during its previous invasion of Lebanon, it will lead to Israel becoming even more of pariah state everywhere in the world other than the US, and it will lead to the strengthening of Hizbollah and other resistance movements in Lebanon and Palestine.
If those results sound good to you, feel free to support Israel’s attacks.
Dale, very few of your critics here have accused you of anti-semitism, and I know I certainly haven’t. I’d appreciate it if you addressed our criticisms on their respective merits, rather than responding with some blanket claim of being unfairly judged as something you’re not.
For one, you still have not responded in any meaningful way to the justifications for the attack on the airport (and the Lebanese Army airfields further East). You have brushed away the logistics argument as if it were meaningless, but surely you realise that’s ridiculous? Every army, even a terrorist one, requires additional weapons, ammunition and explosives if it is to sustain its efforts, and Hezbollah is no different. Especially with the IDF’s targetting of their weapons and rocket stockpiles.
I don’t always think Israel is correct in its actions, and I often think they take the entirely wrong course of action. However, I see absolutely nothing wrong, militarily, morally or strategically, with the bombing of the airport.
The US should take Lebanon’s side. – Dale Amon
Presumably wih Hezbollah and against the IDF? Perhaps we should help knock holes in the wall so that suicide bombers can have better access to markets?
I see lots of downside too. The difference between us is that I see a lot more downside in doing nothing.
I will agree with you that, even now, Israel is not being vigorous enough, but I am frankly surprised to see you making that argument. Are we agreed that Israel should send in some real muscle, go door to door and grab up all the Hezbollah scum they can find for an old-fashioned public execution back in Tel Aviv?
And every Hezbollah assest that gets damaged or destroyed is an upside. For them and for us, too.
Lamentable from Dale.
I can understand a critic. Not the ravaging idiocy you wrote.
An airport is a transportation hub. Even then it wasnt destroyed. The runways were targeted that is the usual interdiction of every military operation. It’s rulebook.
Even then today 4 civilan jets were allowed to get out and go to Aman Airport (Jordan). The Radar tower was still working.
USA or Britain made the same in Iraq dispite the Iraqui air force being non-existant or the attack against Saddam palaces in Central Baghdad.
I think you raise a legitimate question. But that cames with a ? not a certainity and double standarts.
Dale, you said “if Israel decides that destabilizing Lebanon and turning it back into a Syrian fiefdom is in their interests, then we are at odds.” If step two is the Israeli overthrowing the Syrian regime, leaving Lebanon to rebuild without much Syrian attention, is this overall invasion then ok?
They didn’t really bombed the airport, but maid it impossible to arrive-deport from there. They try to weaken Hezbollah and finally to force Lebanon to disarm them by themselves.
“As for the basic question (the existance of Israel). I wish the country had never been refounded – it is just in a bad area of the world.”
Israel or every people should be allowed to have is own country. If Londoners want to form their country they have their right.
The problem is not the bad area. The bad area only exists because West rewards almost always the worst thugs there with political recognition.
Again, what exactly is Israel supposed to have done? If you categorically state that no incursion by Israeli forces into Lebanese territory is to be countenanced lest it disturb the delicate Lebanese democracy, then you simply agree to lose beforehand. Then there is absolutely no disincentive to doing what Hezballah just did, and every encouragement in the world to step up attacks.
If Dale challenges the right of Israel to enter foreign territory from which years of rocket attacks have been made, then he is challenging the right to self-defense. A large organized group of Lebanese citizens is rocketing Israel and kidnapping soldiers. The Lebanese government is not stopping them. That is about as brute-simple a causus belli as can exist. To be scandalized that Israelis may prefer their necks over our aims betrays a distinct lack of understanding of human nature.
“Dale, very few of your critics here have accused you of anti-semitism”
But one most certainly did. I find it surprising and notable.
“For one, you still have not responded in any meaningful way to the justifications for the attack on the airport”
That and the rest of the infrastructure damage are meaningless unless you are taking over. They idea that they will spirit him away to Iran seems rather absurd. If he is alive, I would suggest Syria as a more likely destination.
“Presumably wih Hezbollah and against the IDF?”
Oh, come now. Don’t be absurd. To help the legitimately elected government defend itself against encroachment from all outsiders and to assist it in building up the internal forces that would actually *allow* it to do something about Hizbullah. The Lebanese don’t really want them there; a little *appropriate* help would be far more effective than ham handed air attacks.
Remember a couple years ago? All of us here were cheering the retreat of Syrian troops? We were commenting on the great babes in the pro-democracy demonstrations? Remember that? I supported them then, and I support them now.
Remember not so long ago?
“They idea that they will spirit him away to Iran seems rather absurd. If he is alive, I would suggest Syria as a more likely destination.”
I dont get this. Are you talking about the TWO israeli soldiers?
“The Lebanese don’t really want them there; a little *appropriate* help would be far more effective than ham handed air attacks.”
You are wrong. Heezbollah power have been based in LEBANESE shiites they make up mainly 20% of population.
Or do you think that they control the Southern Lebanon
and they have 2 cabinet ministers because of what?
Only proving that Heezbollah is a liability can make them be expelled.
“That and the rest of the infrastructure damage are meaningless unless you are taking over. They idea that they will spirit him away to Iran seems rather absurd. If he is alive, I would suggest Syria as a more likely destination.”
Whether to Iran or Syria, both avenues are made considerably more difficult by the disabling of the transportation infrastructure.
Besides, that has never been the primary justification, merely a side benefit. The primary reason, as I pointed out (and you ignored) was logistical. To prevent new supplies reaching Hezbollah while doing everything possible to destroy their present stockpiles.
“Oh, come now. Don’t be absurd. To help the legitimately elected government defend itself against encroachment from all outsiders and to assist it in building up the internal forces that would actually *allow* it to do something about Hizbullah. The Lebanese don’t really want them there; a little *appropriate* help would be far more effective than ham handed air attacks.”
Israel offered assistance in the past to Lebanon, during its numerous urgings for the Lebanese to stop the group before it did whatever it was so evidently planning. Their requests and offers were flatly refused. Most of the Lebanese people might not be keen on Hezbollah, but the government was sure as hell not interested in getting rid of it. Indeed, Hezbollah was part of the government.
“Remember a couple years ago? All of us here were cheering the retreat of Syrian troops? We were commenting on the great babes in the pro-democracy demonstrations? Remember that? I supported them then, and I support them now.”
I supported the people of Lebanon then, and I still support them now and I hope that the absolute minimum of harm comes to them. I do not, however, support the government of Lebanon, which has behaved exceedingly irresponsibly and has brought this action upon its own people. I also do not support those in Lebanon (25% of the population, according to Hezbollah’s election results) who voted for Hezbollah even while it was espousing a violently pro-Syrian line.
I still submit that a Lebanon free of the influence of Hezbollah (and by extension Syria and Iran) is far better off than a Lebanon where Hezbollah is the 800lb gorilla in the room that nobody can get out. Sooner or later, the gorilla was bound to start swinging, and then it would’ve been civil war all over again.
Remember not so long ago?
Posted by Dale Amon at July 14, 2006 09:11 PM
Democracy kool-aid? They are cute but they dont have weapons and dont have power. Democrats needs weapons on their side, that’s the problem in that part of the world.
http://lebanesebloggers.blogspot.com/
“Iran-Syria Axis Fully Materializing
I don’t know what to say anymore. Sayyid Nasrallah is still alive and declaring an open war. Where is our President? Where are our Ministers? Prime Minister? Members of Parliament?
All these institutions and the guardians of these institutions are obsolete at this point. Nasrallah is leading the show. He’s defying everything and everyone. He is assuming the position of the guardian of the Prophet’s Family, against all odds. This is not about Lebanon anymore; this is about Nasrallah’s pride.
The Iran-Syria Axis has just fully materialized!
An Israeli warship was hit on the coast off of Beirut, the same warship that hit Hizbullah’s headquarters which housed Nasrallah.
Lebanon is a hostage and all the Lebanese people are a pawn in the hands of the few.”
“If Israel had gone after Syria I would have been cheering”.
Till some civilians had got killed no doubt – then you would have had a fit.
Get a grip Dale.
The attack came from Lebanon. The people who did it have the strongest military power in Lebanon, are in the Lebanese government and are from the largest ethnic group in Lebanon.
Sure the Iranians ordered it all (and Assad of Syria is in bed with Iran for various reasons) but that does not alter the above.
Let us say (for the sake of argument) that I believed in your democracy stuff.
Who is going to destroy the Hiz in Lebanon if Israel does not? (and you can not have a democracy in Lebanon with a fanatical army of Hiz sitting in the place – with all their supporters).
The tooth fairy?
Or you?
I seem to remember that you were not wildly keen on going to Vietnam to fight the Communists (and they were a minority group in the area of Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia).
So I do not see you going to the Middle East to fight radical Muslims.
No insult intended – I would be crap at this job myself.
Israel will fight the Hiz and you will not.
All you will do is insult the people who are doing the fighting.
And now complain that they have not hit Syria as well.
And if they hit Syria you would say they were doing it all wrong “look at the dead babies…..”
“Make war without killing any innocents” that is your line Dale.
And it just is not possible. Actually (although you do not understand it) Israel has bent over backwards (often in absurd ways) to try and keep civilian casualties down in this war.
Point one.
Even the bunch that make up the present government of Israel could not let an army (which is what the Hiz is) make war on Israel without trying fight back.
Point two.
You can not fight back without hurting some innocent people. It is not a question of killing a few leaders (although that would be nice) there are thousands of Hiz who are going have to be killed if the organzation is going to be seriously reduced in power.
Point three – oh hell, point whatever.
Let us say Israel hit Syria – do you not know that the Sunni majority in Syria hate Jews worse than they hate Assad (the Muslim Brotherhood and co hate him partly because he is secular and partly because his family come from a sort of type of Shiaism)?
No of course you do not know.
The world is a fluffy place to you, or it would be if it were not for a few nasty people called “dictators”.
So you are always surprised by events – because people are not like what you think they are.
I think the unintentional point you’re trying to press, Dale, is that peace in Lebanon is more important than Israeli lives. That the Israelis ought to under no circumstances send forces over the border and that any rocketry or kidnapping that comes about is simply to be endured in hopes that someday the rest of Lebanon will put Hezballah on a leash. You recommend a number of ways to bring this blessed day closer, but win or lose, Israel has to take it on the chin while they wait.
Furthermore, suggesting “The Lebanese don’t really want [Hezballah] there” seems to miss the basic point that Hezballah are Lebanese. I don’t want the Ku Klux Klan in America either, but if they started rocketing Ciudad Juarez and the government failed to stop them, I would in no way be surprised or scandalized if Mexico sent troops over the border to do whatever they thought necessary. Whether or not the Mexican army succeeded in stopping the attacks with their efforts is beside the moral point. There is a basic national right to self-defense and the current case is absolutely exemplary of it.
“To prevent new supplies reaching Hezbollah while doing everything possible to destroy their present stockpiles.”
And how many years are you going to be there to search? We’ve been in Iraq for several years now and we still haven’t cleared out even Saddam’s ordinance, let alone all the new stuff from Syria. Oh, and by the way, how many troops did you say you would be stationed on the Lebanese/Syrian border for the next decade?
So, you are blowing up infrastructure to stop arms imports but are not planning on the long term ground issue to actually make it meaningful. You disrupt their operations for a few weeks; they go underground; then next year Syria resupplies them. You kill a bunch of them; but you take no pacification measures to cut off the supply of new cannon fodder.
Very apparently no one in Israel is really thinking about Don Rumsfeld’s question on metrics. You are not winning until they are recruiting fewer new members than you are
killing.
The attack on Lebanon is a strategy of failure with no forethought, no long term plan, no backup. It’s more like a tribal vengeance raid than anything else.
“There is a basic national right to self-defense and the current case is absolutely exemplary of it.”
Ximenes just said it all.
“Over 60 Lebanese civilians are dead. 2 Israeli civilians are. Who is firing more indiscriminately?”
A stunningly obtuse–or dishonest–comment from felix.
Far, far more than 2 Israelis are dead as a result of terrorist attacks. And as for “indiscriminate’–firing hundreds of rockets into civilian areas of Israel would seem to anyone with half a functioning brain to be somewhat indiscriminate.
Breaking News:
IRA terrorists based in the Republic of Ireland have kidnapped a British soldier.
In retaliation, the British Army has blown up Dublin airport and shelled southern suburbs of the city killing 60 civillians.
The militants in Palestine and Lebanon that kidnapped Israeli soldiers are no more the governments or representatives of those countries than the IRA is in NI or the RoI. Until the Americans stop supporting Israel, nothing will change. Condaleza Rice said this was an act of self defence – my arse!
“Till some civilians had got killed no doubt – then you would have had a fit.”
Ah, so who was that person named Dale Amon that was rooting for our guys on the way to Baghdad and supporting the troops through thick and thin?
Perhaps it has to do with whether an action is likely to actually accomplish what it set out to do instead of the exact opposite, which is what I believe Israel will accomplish. When they are done, they will be in a worse position than when they started.
Dale:
First off, I never accused you of being an anti-Semite. I did the cut-and paste of your comments to show that your “why oh why could anyone even think that I have something against Israel” line is a little unreasonable in the context of this discussion. You advocated the US entering the fight on the Lebanese side, against the IDF.
The Lebanese are not innocent co-victims of Hezbollah, however much you might like to think so. Remember Beirut? The Lebanese are perfectly capable of making life difficult for occupiers when they want to do so. Why does Nasrallah have a house in Lebanon? How can he have a known address when the Lebanese gov’t is so determined to drive him out of the country? Because they aren’t; they are cosy and happy with Hezbollah. They are enablers, and they dance in the streets when Jews die from suicide bombers.
The solution to that problem is to kill more of them, and to make it clear to potential recruits that you are perfectly willing to kill as many as line up to be killed. That will either dry up the list of new recruits, or provide you with a target-rich environment.
It’s will that is lacking here, not bullets or bombs.
“The solution to that problem is to kill more of them, and to make it clear to potential recruits that you are perfectly willing to kill as many as line up to be killed. That will either dry up the list of new recruits, or provide you with a target-rich environment.”
That approach was tried in Lebanon for some decades as different countries fed arms and funding to different warlord factions and made Beirut a hell on Earth. it did not work then and it will not work now.
Here’s an idea: let’s try it again, but this time we will keep the other factions from re-supplying the opposing side. People (even splodeydopes) take longer to make than to kill.
How can we do that? I don’t know … maybe we should start by knocking out an airport …
I might also point out that the Katyusha threat is rather limited. The range is only 20km so it would seem that establishing a militarized buffer zone of about that distance on the border with Lebanon would solve the problem. Perhaps a noman’s land like that on the N/S Korean borders with a shoot anything that moves policy between the fences.
“That’s the dumbest statement I can recall reading on this blog.”
New here, eh?
I’ve read this thread as diligently as I am able and have concluded that nobody is wrong in his/her comment………but you are discussing a localized issue.
Before I am heaped with abuse I remind you that 9/11 was a localized issue…as was Bali, the first WTC attack, the London bombings, Beslan, Madrid and and and and now Mumbai.
I am pretty sick of the petty knicker-twisting of those who can’t see the forest for the trees. There is a forest there, chaps…and it’s very big.
(Militant) Islam hates the Jews….and we say:poor Jews, (unless they hit back at those animals which are trying to eradicate them.) Jews are only #1 on the list or does someone less smart than you have to spell it out for you? I have commented as a guest here many, many times that we are at war….with a brutal, patient & implacable enemy. Instead of recognizing this, the chatterati pule & mince with phrases such as ‘a clash of civilizations’ Utter crap. There is, currently, only one civilization, ours; and no thanks to those who benefit from it, it is in a critical condition. To be fair, ‘Islam’ had a Blütezeit(?) centuries ago but to say, today, that they have a civilization is tantamount to saying that paedophiles love children.
Doubtless, everybody attending the G8 at present is tut-tutting concernedly but I hope that awful Mr. Putin(KGB) hasn’t forgotten the Moscow theatre fiasco; he can hardly forget Chechnya where lack of real resolve extenuates the problem. Well, he has to take account of world opinion, does he not?
Let’s start looking at the big picture, guys, and for once, let’s try to get our bloody act together. If we don’t………believe me, better go to E-Bay & look for prayer-mats & burqas.
Tick, tick, tick………..
And as for “indiscriminate’–firing hundreds of rockets into civilian areas of Israel would seem to anyone with half a functioning brain to be somewhat indiscriminate.
And yet you don’t see that firing thousands of rounds into civilian areas of Lebanon, and killing an order of magnitude more civilians than the Hizbollah attacks is even more indiscriminate.
For some people it appears that the value of a civilian life depends on the nationality of the victim. Do a quick survey of the headlines in the US media if you want a demonstration of this principle.
The bottom line of course is that as I mentioned earlier, anyone who actually knows the circumstances under which Hizbollah was founded knows that Israel’s attacks will lead to Hizbollah and/or other militant groups in Lebanon gaining strength.
That seems fine as a temporary measure, as long as the 20km is taken exclusively from the Lebanese side of the border. There is no reason for the Israelis to lose the use of any of their land just because they are surrounded by murderous slavering Jew-haters.
It is interesting to contrast that idea with the idea of building a wall to deter suicide bombers. Dale, are you in favor of the wall as well?
Sorry, but the Beirut airport is a legitimate target. You can figure out for yourself the military rationale. And even the airport wasn’t wasn’t hit indiscriminately…
Take note of what wasn’t hit
Dale, I think you’re being a bit unfair in characterising the offensive as a failure before it has even really begun. Point is, we don’t yet know if there will be a ground offensive, nor do we know what Israel defines as its cut-off point.
You speak about Hezbollah being resupplied again next year, and that’s true, but Israel’s bombing of the airport was tactical, meant to assist their operations as of right now. We simply don’t know what further measures are being planned or will be taken if this operation is to last as long as some fear. The important thing is that right now the bombing of Hezbollah’s resupply infrastructure puts them in a very weak position.
Indeed, can you not forsee an outcome whereby Israel significantly weakens Hezbollah in a few weeks of fighting, and then withdraws once the Lebanese government promises to uphold Resolution 1559? At that point, the US and other countries could step in with offers of aid and assistance, and it will suddenly become far more possible for the Lebanese government to reign Hezb. in, disarm it, assert control over its former territory and interdict the supply routes itself. Under the right circumstances, a limited war in this scenario can have a net benefit.
But look, I think I understand your chief concern. You don’t believe it’s in the long-term strategic interests of either Israel, the US or the UK to alienate the Lebanese people so soon after they cast off the shackles of the Syrians. I admit, that’s a fair point, and I agree with it.
However, I think you have to accept that destroying Hezbollah is inevitably going to piss off the 25% of the Lebanese population that supports it (and Syria), and I think you’re wrong about the airport. In the long run, I think most Lebanese are going to understand the rationale of destroying its runways, and are going to respect the Israeli decision to avoid Lebanese civil targets wherever possible.
In a way, it’s like the surgical removal of cancer. Sure, the patient’s got to undergo chemotherapy, and for a while at least is going to lose their hair, but once the cancer is gone and they’re cured they don’t exactly hate their doctors for it. (btw, I know it’s an imperfect analogy, but I think you get the idea).
The fact remains that the Lebanese government foolishly allowed Hezbollah to operate unhindered despite being warned repeatedly that something was up. War is now the result, and the Lebanese cannot go crying about having had nothing to do with it. The only solution now is for Israel to weaken or destroy Hezbollah so that it is no longer a pressing threat, and if bombing an airport’s runways is important to do it, then so be it.
Felix asks who is fireing more indiscriminately – Israel or the Hiz.
The Hiz are Felix.
“But more Arabs are dying that Jews”.
That is because the Hiz are fireing rockets – they would like to kill lots of people (every last Jew, amongst others), but they are missing most of the time.
As for Dale.
He now says it is “absurd” to say that he is on the Hiz’s side.
He is on the side of the democractic Lebanese government – overlooking the fact that the Hiz has two cabinet minister in that government.
The Lebanese government and its multiethnic (actually mostly Shia these days) army is not worth of cup of warm spit. I recall when various Christian Lebanese governments put up a decent fight against their enemies – but this government does not look as if it is going to take on the Hiz.
If I am wrong I will apologize. I will apologize on the very day that the democractic Lebanese government kills the Hiz (not all of them – a few thousand dead would weaken them).
I am not asking for their bodies to be mutilated and dragged through the streets so that men, women and children can laugh and dance (which is normal behaviour for people in the Middle East on seeing an enemy in agony – in 1958 in Iraq lots of people came out to have a good laugh who were not even enemies of the people it was being done to), just killing them will do.
But I will not apologize for not seeing the strength of “babes” on demonstrations. A government’s strength is measured on the basis of how many people it is willing and able to kill – not how many attractive women it can get to smile.
Remember Hiz has “babes” to – only their ones are prepared to blow themsleves up as suicide bombs.
Sure the Hiz have enemies in Lebanon.
But let us think for a moment.
We build up these enemies, by some miricle they defeat the Hiz.
But then a man would come along screaming “they are killing the Shia civilains – they are murdering the babies”.
Oh I recognise the man – it is DALE. Not all the Shia are Hiz (indeed they have many enemies among the various types of Shia) – but many are, and it the support goes deep (family based).
Remember when the Christians where allowed in to the P.L.O. camps in 1982?
They killed lots of civilians – and the P.L.O. (and others) would have, and had already, killed their civilians.
That is ethnic war Dale.
People you let live today are the ones who kill your own folk tomorrow.
No one thanks you for letting them live (remember I told you that Israel has spared thousands of people it could have killed over the last few days), all people remember is the distant (or close) relative or friend (or whatever) that you did kill (“then do not kill anyone” – sadly Dale people who do not live by the sword can still die by it and if the people of Israel did not kill they would be exterminated – although they may be eventually anyway)
And (of course) the distinction between “military” and “civilian” is a rather hard one to make in the Middle East.
I suppose that a civilian is someone who has not got their gun on them at the time they are killed – or has it taken away before their body is shown off.
In the old days one could be fairly sure that young children were real civilians. But the present President of Iran specialized (in his Iraq war days) in organizing child bombers. I am told that the Hiz think it is a good idea. Of course the practice is not confined to Muslims – other groups have done it (it goes back a long way).
Not that modern weapons can really spare people who are used as human shields (and all radical Muslim types do that as a matter of policy) even if they really are civilians.
I have been trying to think of a type of war that would satisfy you Dale (where the good guys only kill bad guys – not the innocent).
And I have come up with one.
A friend of mine runs a role playing game, and I play a holy knight.
The knight would never hurt an innocent person and uses a sword – rather than bombs or artillery shells.
However, real war is not like a fantasy role playing game of this type.
That is one of the “downsides” of life in this world.
Actually I could see your point if the Hiz was only a few people.
I would advise just accepting a few terrorist attacks rather than destroying a democrat Lebanon (one could talk of helping the Lebanese hurt down the few bad guys) – but the Hiz is an ARMY and one with widespread support.
Oh, and Hezbollah has an indeterminate number of Fajer missiles with a range of 100km, easily able to reach Haifa. The threat is not just from paltry Katyushas with a 20km range.
Harsh words from Tony Blair? Hmm, let’s see how that goes,
“Her Majesty’s Government regrets and condemns the recent use of violence by the Israeli government in Lebanon”
“Here you go Tony, another £14m ‘loan’ and another new cowboy suit for your pet monkey, now please go away”
“Going away right now sir, thank you sir.”
As has been said, the Lebanese government have been the enablers. They’ve allowed Hezbollah to exist because
a.) the Hezbollah are fanatics who could cause a civil war if they didn’t get their own way and
b.) the Lebs really didn’t think that Israel would launch a massive retaliatory strike again, since their withdrawal from southern Lebanon.
Well, they were wrong about b.), and now they’re reaping the whirlwind.
If a group of paramilitaries were based in Mexico, with representatives in the MexGov, and same paras were firing rockets into El Paso, any U.S. politician who voted against retaliation would be tossed out of office, to be replaced by someone more warlike.
Think it’s any different in Israel?
Anyway, it’s their business, not ours. Considering all the provocations thrown their way (and the kidnappings are just the latest in a long line), I think it’s about time the Izzies pitched a fastball.
They tried to separate themselves from the bad guys peacefully, with a wall (and got yelled at for that), and now that misiles are being lobbed over the walls, why shouldn’t they go after the bad guys?
And yes, the Leb govt. is responsible for Hezbollah’s acts of terrorism, just as the Iranian and Syrian governments are responsible for arming Hezbollah.
The S. has H.T.F., and Israel is doing what it has to. For myself, they can do whatever they want: unlike Dale, they’re living in a pit of vipers, and I for one am not going to preach at them for tossing grenades down the snake-holes just because a few garter snakes get killed along the way.
I was sorry to read Dale’s post today, as I took him to be reasonably well-informed regarding history and current events.
As a country whose military force is supplied by mass-conscription, Israel cannot afford a war of attrition. And when Israel calls up its reserves, it is an action that signals a few key points:
To condemn Israel is rather short-sighted; they recognize that they will be condemned no matter what action they take (or don’t take for that matter).
It is
Dale continues to not answer the objections in nature of Heezbollah and it’s support by parts of Lebanese population(25% of vote would be like one of the 3 big British parties) to and presence in Lebanese cabinet. It’s a la-la land of whisfull-thinking, democracy dreaming and an investement in sand castles.
So if the Lebanon Governement are not accountable for anything how it can be a Democracy?
(ahem, sorry)… unfortunate that this happened as the Lebanese were establishing a Syrian-free government.
To say that these actions are not in the Israelis interest is to mistake their goals in this conflict: disrupt/disable Hizballah by driving back their missile sites (which have been hitting Haifa, by the way) and by destroying their ability to choose the time and place of action.
Regrettably, the peace process has stalled, the general interest amongst us Americans for military action in the middle east is at a low, and international bodies have provided little (excepting a dark entertainment, I suppose).
I’m sorry to read, nonetheless, Dale’s post, as it appeared to be uncharacteristic from him.
Dale:
“We were commenting on the great babes in the pro-democracy demonstrations?”
So, it’s the babes, is it, that made you mad ? that caused you to lose control ?
The Syrian intervention in Lebanon wasn’t a brutal disaster as you state. It was more nuanced. Remember – before that intervention Lebanon wasn’t exactly a paradise, in fact it was utterly destroyed by a 15 year long brutal and bloody civil war. They were not able to stop that war by themselves. The Syrian invasion put an end to that terrible war, and laid the foundations for the current resurgence of a prosperous and (relatively) free Lebanon.
Of course, Syria didn’t do it just for the babes, it had it’s own interests, economic and military. It created (with Iran) the Hizbollah, and used it as a proxy, to fight Israel. (It also exploited Lebanon economically).
Syria never left Lebanon, and Lebanon was never independent despite the show of withdrawal a couple of years ago. Syria continues to control Lebanon via it’s proxy, Hizbollah (with the help of Iran), and via the it’s supporters and political factions in Lebanon.
The Lebanese (Maronites, i.e. christians, and the babes) are trying to consolidate their (so far unacheived) independence – and hitting Hezbollah will only help them. Hizbollah targets is what Israel hit mostly, and the Maronites know that.
Other Lebanese (shia, suni) prefer Syria and Hezbollah over the Maronites. A very complicated story indeed. Could make anyone dizzy, not only the Israelis, who lamentably, live next door.
As to why Israel hit Lebanon and not Syria – for the same reason the US attacked Iraq and not Iran. It’s easier, less risky, though less effective too.
Paul Marks:
“Basically you sound like a B.B.C. broadcast”
Wasn’t that a little bit harsh ? Couldn’t you make allowances for the babe factor ?
“(ahem, sorry)… unfortunate that this happened as the Lebanese were establishing a Syrian-free government”
Syrian free with Hizballah ministers?
That is because the Hiz are fireing rockets – they would like to kill lots of people (every last Jew, amongst others), but they are missing most of the time.
You do not appear to comprehend what the word indiscriminate means. Let’s do the math. So far in the recent violence, 12 Israelis have died – 8 of them soldiers, and 4 of them civilians. The majority of those killed by Hizbollah have been soldiers.
On the other hand, almost all of the 75 or so Lebanese killed have been civilians. So Israel has been more indiscriminate in its attacks.
From the AP:
“Israeli raids targeted the densely populated district, ripping the facades off dozens of homes and blanketing sidewalks with broken glass and other debris.
The strikes left dozens of cars smashed by slabs of concrete falling off buildings. Curtains fluttered out of broken windows 10 floors up. Store shutters were thrown off their rails. Some of the missiles left large craters in the ground.”
That’s discriminate? Rubbish. Israel is, morally, no different than Hizbollah.
If legitimate targets are surrounded by civilians, that is regretable but it is also war. Hezbollah on the other hand attack civlian target in preference to much harder military targets. If you cannot see the difference then you are a fool.
Sorry, Felix, but when your enemy hides among the civilian population, and then starts firing missiles indiscriminately into YOUR population centers, how, precisely, are you to respond?
The Israelis have a long history of, where possible, killing only the leaders and senior bad guys, either with precision-guided rockets or sniper fire, occasional accidents notwithstanding.
Using that methodology, they’ve been countered with suicide bombers, and now, rocket batteries.
And you’re trying to say that the Israelis are morally no better than the Islamist fanatics?
Good grief.
The only thing which stops Israel from outright extermination of the surrounding terrorists is their own heritage — and the Pals and Arabs are damn lucky that this is the case.
Not that the Islamists would hesitate to do just that to the Israelis…
Syria is the source and Damascus is the place which should be on the receiving end of smart bomb attention. Take down the Syrian government and destroy the Baathist Party and you will have at least cut off the closest and most immediate head of the snake.
Otherwise, when you are done, there will be more Hizbullah ‘soldiers’ than when you started. If Syria is intact, they will soon be even better armed than they are now.
This comparison of Lebanon to Mexico does not hold water. A more realistic comparison would be if say Guatamala had destabilized and used Mexico for years as a proxy and had just recently been run out of town by a new democracy movement, and then utilizied its proxies to attack across the US border. I think the US response would be to kick the s**t out of Guatamala and then assist the Mexicans in regaining control of their wayward states.
So what if there is a significant support for Hizbullah in some areas? Without State support they ain’t s**t.
Oh, btw, to the reader who asked. Yes, I think the wall was a great idea. I am sort of suggesting a dual wall solution on the northern border with a 20km shoot on sight zone in between.
If legitimate targets are surrounded by civilians, that is regretable but it is also war.
And ignoring those civilians is also “indiscriminate”.
Hezbollah on the other hand attack civlian target in preference to much harder military targets.
What were they aiming for when they hit a naval vessel today, then? This whole attack was started off by Hizbollah attacking military targets, not civilians.
The Israelis have a long history of, where possible, killing only the leaders and senior bad guys
Nonsense – they have killed more Palestinian civilians, by far, than the number of Israeli civilians the Palestinian insurgents have killed.
I wrote:
And felix replied:
So let me this straight… if a man fires a rocket at you in a civilian neighbourhood, are you saying he cannot be fired back at? He just gets to keep firing because your return fire might kill some of the civilians the guy firing the rocket at you has placed at risk? Is that really your view?
You AIM at the guys firing the rockets but if you miss and kill others, that is a tragedy but that truly is what war involves. If you are not prepared to do even that, surrender is the only option because you are a functional pacifist.
And yet you ALSO oppose targeted Israeli assassinations! Now can you see why it is clear to me that what you really want is for Israel to forgo anything that is actually a viable way of fighting a war. It is clear that your objective is the destruction of Israel, not ‘better behaviour’ by the Israelis.
I did not say Hezbollah only attacks civilian targets but if you claim they only attack military ones, please explain the cross border rocket attacks lobbed blindly into Israeli towns yesterday.
We’re maybe stupid but not stupid enough as to act on Britain’s strategic interests and useless words from the spineless shits who run it.
The survival of the only functioning democracy in the region is not an interest of the UK I suppose.
What is your argument exactly? Smiling babes?
Remember not so long ago?
With friends like these…
Go fuck yourself!
“The survival of the only functioning democracy in the region”
Our interests are that it not be the *only* functioning democracy. I have hopes for Lebanon, iraq and Afghanistan.
If you really want to be helpful, do something useful and knock off those shites in Syria.
Sorry, Felix, but when your enemy hides among the civilian population, and then starts firing missiles indiscriminately into YOUR population centers, how, precisely, are you to respond?
Well, first of all, you should go out and acquire the latest copy of the Guardian or NY Times and find out if you are on their Shit List or not.
If not, you can proceed with the payback. Fire back, indiscriminately or not. Kill whomever. It’s OK.
If, however, you are on their Shit List, you can sit and take it or alternatively, you can sit and take it. And remember, it’s all your fault.
“I think the US response would be to kick the s**t out of Guatamala and then assist the Mexicans in regaining control of their wayward states.”
See what country you refered…that shows your framing in the issue.
. You cant compare a country that has 300 millions in population and US resources and a country like Israel.
“So what if there is a significant support for Hizbullah in some areas? Without State support they ain’t s**t.”
Well they have state support because they are in Governement in first place. And they bare a part of State.
They are part of the state because they win local elections and representives.
“Take down the Syrian government and destroy the Baathist Party and you will have ….” another gang of mad tyrants and terrorists take power. Maybe a mad mullah.
You can’t change the nature of the Middle East overnight. Which does not mean the Syrians should not be hit when they deserve it.
Same thing in Lebanon. Some parts of it are liberal, modern, freedom-democracy-and-babes. Other parts are Hizbollah, shiites, madness terror and burqas.
You cannot grant immunity to the second group on account of the first.
See this from a Lebanese blog:
“It feels really damn frustrating to see all those people dying for no reason but the possibility of a FREE-Lebanon (which we all know is impossible). ”
See here
“See what country you refered…that shows your framing in the issue.”
Hmmm. Actually not my choice. Several other arguing their points selected the model, not I. Personally I think it is a not very useful comparison.
Yes, Jaciob identifies the problem but I submit that it is not ‘immunity’ I am urging Israel to grant to the non-Hezbollah parts of Lebanon but rather to discriminate as far as possible between who is the enemy and who is not. Contrary to what some idiots in the media are saying, Israel is not at war with ‘Lebanon’, it is at war with Hezbollah… and unlike Hamas who are mixed amongst people who may not suppport them, Hezbollah is quite seperate from the people in Lebanon who clearly do not support them, making discriminated between the ‘good guys’ and ‘bad guys’ rather easier.
And just for the record, I have no reason to think Israel is continually indiscriminatly hammering anyone other than the bad guys and I do understand the military value of Beruit airport… but it is places like the airport that start to make me uneasy because in truth the solution to the problems in Lebanon cannot be imposed by Israel unless they get buy-in from a good chunk of Lebanon’s population. So I suspect a pre-requisite for destroying Hezbollah is keeping the non-Hezbollah people on-side.
Holy Christ. This has been an eye-opener. I would not have counted on this from Dale, and going through it, it’s a mystery where to even begin.
This is as good a place as any:
“So, you are blowing up infrastructure to stop arms imports but are not planning on the long term ground issue to actually make it meaningful.”
I have a question. How the hell do you know what their plans are?
But don’t sweat it, Dale: I’ll take some of the “anti-Semite” heat for you.
I think — as I always have — that the whole Israeli project is crazy. Of course, people have the right to be as bloody stupid as they want to be. However, I say that the Jews ought to give it up and come to America.
(There. Hope that helps.)
Until they figure it out, though, they are under no obligation whatever to sit there eating rocket attacks with no earthly military rationale, but merely intended to kill them for the sheer bloody-minded hell of it.
You’re dead wrong about this, Dale. All of it.
(Oh, and: fuck that “you broke it; you pay for it” bullshit. It was broken way in advance of this. So much for “democracy”.)
the whole Israeli project is crazy
Except it has produced the only liberal democracy the mid-east has ever seen…
the Jews ought to give it up and come to America
But what if they don’t want to? What if they consider Israel their home? What if they were born there? What if their friends and relatives have died defending Israel? And what if, Billy Beck, someone told you you had to emigrate? Would you like that or would you stand and fight?
I bless my parents, Nick, for having the bloody good sense to not attempt a singularly irrational life in a religious state surrounded by people even more irrational enough to hate them for it.
Pay attention: nothing good can ever come of this.
Felix says that I do not know what the word “indiscriminate” means.
Well I admit that my language skills are not very good, but (in this case) it is Felix who has got the meaning of words wrong.
Sure the Hiz have not killed as many Jews as they would like to – they would like to kill all Jews of course (and lots of other people to) – but their (basically random) missiles are missing people most of the time.
Actually it is the Israelis who trying to avoid killing civilians (although Felix does not seem to understand) this – but their weapons tend to actually hit targets (rather than explode nowhere in particular) – so if there are civilians (being used as human shields) in a place were the Hiz are they are going to die to.
Of course the Hiz claim that they have taken very few casualties – in reality they have. Although not nearly as many as they could have if the Israeli’s had not tried to keep civilians casualties down.
As for Dale.
Your case would seem to be the plan to weaken the Hiz will fail, because more will join up than will be killed.
May be true (although they might well have joined up anyway).
But that does not mean that Israel should not kill the Hiz people. Sometimes victory is not possible – all one can do in such a situation is to kill as many of the enemy as possible before one is oneself exterminated.
I actually heard an interesting thing on the B.B.C. today (B.B.C. Radio 4 “Today” programme) – amongst there normal tricks of reporting all non regular army Lebanese dead as “civilians” they reported that the Lebanese government (the one you have such faith in Dale) does not even have has its own forces guarding its H.Q. in the capital.
That would be an “insult” to the Hiz.
Of course a real “Lebanese government” would have taken on the Hiz long ago (rather than invite several of them into the cabinet).
The Lebanese government has had time to take on the Hiz and has not (I will apologize to you the moment it kills a few thousand of them) and you will not go in (no insult intended – I say again that I would be crap to).
So they Israelis (mostly Jews but some Christian and Muslim Arabs in the military as well) have to try.
“But they will fail” says Dale.
Yes most likely (after all life is shit and none of us get out of it alive), but they still have to try.
This business about “supporting our forces though think and thin” Dale.
I am sure it was you who wrote a post saying how disgusted you were about the Iraqi who got shot because he got to close.
Of course if soldiers do not shoot Iraqis when they get close end up like Townsend’s men in 1916 (almost the entire command abused, mutilated and killed after they laid down their arms – and it was mostly local Arabs, not Turkish regulars, who were responsible) or those two American soldiers a week or so ago.
Dale, I fear that you don’t understand us. We do NOT go after the people who provide terrorists the means with which they commit mayhem, for the same reason that we do not (anymore) go after Smith & Wesson for making guns. It is the final agent, not the supplier, who bears the responsibility of misuse.
Nope: if the Mexico thing happened, we’d be blowing up the Mexicans shooting at us, not the Guatemalans who supplied them the rockets.
Any politician advocating otherwise would have a short political career, indeed.
Sorry, Dale, but your argument is completely wrong-headed on this one.
I’m not saying that the Israelis’ response is perfect — I don’t think there is a prefect response in a situation like this — but it for damn sure is the one which will work better than any other, at this particular point.
Stop the rockets, kill the people giving the orders, interrupt the supply line. That’s the tactical solution.
Leveling Damascus / Teheran is the strategic one, and one the Israelis can’t do anyway.