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Does a voice for ‘moderate’ Islam in Britain actually exist?

Let us listen to what Dr. Azzam Tamimi of the Muslim Association of Britain is saying:

Senior Muslims have warned the Government that it needed to revise British foreign policy if it wants to put an end to the violence. Dr Azzam Tamimi, from the Muslim Association of Britain, said the country was in real danger and that this would continue so long as British forces remained in Iraq. He described the July 7 bombings and the attempted attacks in London on Thursday as “horrifying” but said it was not enough to simply unite in condemnation of the bombers.

People reading this blog may or may not share my enthusiasm for the war in Iraq, but even if you were an ‘anti’, make no mistake, what these ‘senior Muslims’ are demanding is nothing less that capitulation to terrorism. Dr. Tamimi is quite unequivocal: change your foreign policy or these people will continue to blow you up.

And when Massoud Shadjareh, chairman the Islamic Human Rights Commission, says:

we know this wasn’t a one-off, we need to look at ways of addressing the underlying factors that created it. I feel it’s urgent to start addressing these before there is further loss of life.

He had better think deeply before making such statements again or an increasing number of British people may start concluding that the ‘underlying factor’ that needs the most urgent action is the existence of his community in Britain. I look forward to the large body of ‘moderate’ Muslim leaders that is allegedly out there to unequivocally damn Al Qaeda and all their works (and that means not a single use of the word ‘but…’). It is becoming increasingly urgent that this occurs soon and over a sustained period.

Until that happens, I suspect the majority of British people who do not live in Islington will see people like Azzam Tamimi and Massoud Shadjareh as part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

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97 comments to Does a voice for ‘moderate’ Islam in Britain actually exist?

  • Perry,
    May i recommend you examine the ties between MAB and the Muslim Brotherhood also respect ans the SWP.

  • Dee

    What confused me and I have never seen a proper explanation, is why, the abhorrent leader of the BNP is proscecuted for making racist remarks, whilst the equally abhorrent Islmamic Cleric Bakri Mohammed makes racist/homophobic remarks and, as far as I know, has never been arrested for inciting hatred. Are there different rules for different peoples? Also, I would say this is a prime recruting agent for the BNP if anything was (perhaps this is how ‘positive discrimination’ is interpreted by some lawmakers?)

  • GCooper

    Very well said!

    This was precisely what I was getting at when I responded to a comment from Pete in another thread, where he posted a link to some of these statements. I’m very glad that you have given these threats (because that’s just what they are) greater prominence.

    People need to know what is actually being said by these supposed ‘moderate’ Islamic leaders, whom we are commanded by liberal media pundits, Za-NuLabour peers and other members of the Guardian-reading classes to respect.

    I’m listening – but mostly what I hear seems to be equivocation, obfuscation and downright falsehoods.

    Peoples’ patience is running out, I’m sure, and if we don’t want things to get very ugly indeed then the only people who can put a stop to this are those who know who and where these maniacs are.

    A little less ‘underlying causes’ and ‘aienated youth’ and a little more ‘You want Ali from No 44, Nelson St’ is the very least we should expect.

  • Verity

    I don’t seem to recall Azazman Tamimi being elected to conduct British foreign policy.

    That they keep getting in it deeper and deeper offers a clear demonstration that they have absolutely no idea that their comments are outrageous in a democracy. Indeed, they seem to think that we are turning to them for advice on how to run our country.

  • It’s amazing…all over the Western world, supposed “moderate” Muslim leaders are venting their spleens about their extremist brethren. However, it’s worthwhile taking the name of the supposed “moderate” and doing a Google search on it. Or, more specifically, search for the name on a site like Little Green Footballs. In Australia, our highest profile “moderate” Muslim leader, the Grand Mufti al-Hilaly, has made statements supporting suicide bombers, slagging off the Western way of life that currently offers him succour, and has popped out with several choice Nazi-esque views about how Jews control the world. The truly moderate Muslims really, *really* need to make themselves heard. They need to ditch their current crop of wolf-in-sheep’s-clothing hardline spokesmen like the charming Mufti mentioned above, and start acting more like civilised human beings and less like pathetic apologists for murderous scum.

  • To answer Dee’s question, yes, of course there are different rules for different people, based on the prevailing collectivist multicultural idiocy. If the BNP were to commit such outrages, would anyone even let their apologists make public statements, much less blame British foreign – or domestic – policy instead of the murderers? That question answers itself.

  • Dr. Tamini is right in that these attacks will continue, until Britain changes it’s foreign policy. It seems to me that there is nothing that can be done about that; the ‘critical mass’ of terrorism has been reached in the UK, and nothing that the State can do will stop it, short of ‘unconditional surrender’.

    This is like saying, in 1940, that German air-raids over London will continue until Britain changes its foreign policy.

    And Mr Shadjareh has hit the nail right on the head too. We do need to look at ways of addressing the underlying factors that created this.

    Now to me, it seems that the underlying factor that creates these ‘suicide’ bombers is that Islamic preachers/rabblerousers have been filling some very empty heads with some very toxic rubbish. We need to look at some way of carrying the war to these preachers. As long as these ‘clerics’ can preach their poison without fear of consequences, they will continue to do so.

    The West has allowed the terrorist masterminds far too much latitude. It is not enough to kill the bombers; not enough to dismantle the bomb-factories. It is not even enough to dismantle the failed-states that give havens to them. We must dismantle the intellectual heart and soul of Islamofascism.

  • John

    Thomas Friedman (July 8)
    If It’s a Muslim Problem, It Needs a Muslim Solution(Link)

    Because there is no obvious target to retaliate against, and because there are not enough police to police every opening in an open society, either the Muslim world begins to really restrain, inhibit and denounce its own extremists – if it turns out that they are behind the London bombings – or the West is going to do it for them. And the West will do it in a rough, crude way – by simply shutting them out, denying them visas and making every Muslim in its midst guilty until proven innocent.

    And because I think that would be a disaster, it is essential that the Muslim world wake up to the fact that it has a jihadist death cult in its midst. If it does not fight that death cult, that cancer, within its own body politic, it is going to infect Muslim-Western relations everywhere. Only the Muslim world can root out that death cult.

    Friedman’s right, if the Muslims don’t do something soon, the “moderate muslim” is going to join Santa Claus and Unicorns as a myth.

  • Julian Taylor

    I think this ties in nicely with the earlier post about tolerance and our ability to ‘tolerate the intolerable’. Perhaps Azazman Tamimi has failed to understand that we stopped giving in to terrorism after Ted Heath handed Leila Khaled (she so beloved of The Grauniad’s Katharine Viner) back to the PFLP, so any withdrawal from Iraq would now just look like a submission to the suicidebombers and a possible slap in the face to the 52 murdered on 7th July. Of course I doubt that the bloodshed and daily horror we now see in Iraq would stop should we withdraw; in fact I fancy that it might escalate in intensity instead, but I daresay Azazman Tamimi wouldn’t care about that.

  • Verity

    Tamimi was born in Hebron. Here’s his work experience in all its jaw-grindingly boring predictability:

    – Director of the Institute of Islamic Political Thought, London as of July 1999. And as of September 2000, Senior Lecturer at Markfield Institute of Higher Education.

    – Researcher, Centre for the Study of Democracy, University of Westminster, U.K. September 1992 to June 1999.

    – From February 1992 to July 1999: Director, Liberty for the Muslim World, London, U.K.

    – From January 1990 to December 1991: Director, Islamic Movement Parliamentary Office, Amman, Jordan.

    – Freelance translator from May 1985 to December 1989.

    – From May 1980 to April 1985: Media Monitor and News Analyst, Foreign Broadcast Information Service (FBIS), U.S. Government (based initially in Cyprus and then re-located to Bahrain).

    – From July 1979 to March 1980: Medical Representative, Boeringer Mannheim, Germany (based in Amman and Kuwait).

  • John Steele

    Perry, I sincerely hope you are not holding your breath.

    Britain, and the entire Western world, has just had the ultimatum delivered. Pay heed or suffer the consequences. The question now is just how much British steel remains in the British people. Are our English cousins going to go down Chamberlain Lane or Churchill Road? I certainly hope I know the answer but only time will tell.

  • lucklucky

    Worked for FBIS (1980-85)! well that is a sign that explains why US have been sleeping for so long.

  • John Steele – oh, come on. The Islamofascists are rank amateurs when compared to the 20th century’s chief barbarians; most of whom we disarmed or dissolved. Do al-Qaeda and its ilk think they’ve rattled us? Metaphorically speaking, they are a feather tickling our nose as we are sleeping. They have absolutely no idea of the magnitude of fury and genius that can be ranged against them. The Western world has barely started from its slumber and our enemies are already bedraggled and running scared. What if we really got serious with them?

  • John Steele

    “…it is essential that the Muslim world wake up to the fact that it has a jihadist death cult in its midst…

    This assumes that they do not know this and there is underlying approval. Based on the deafening condemnation of terrorism from the Muslim “world” it’s getting harder and harder to believe that it’s “an isolated few.”

  • joel

    Islam = Violence

    This whole Iraq thing is nonsense. Before Iraq we had 9/11.

    You just have to exist to be the target of Muslim violence. For example, there is an ethnic cleansing compaign against non-Muslims in Thailand, I believe.

    Islam was born through violence, spread via violence, and sustains itself through violence.

    Islam gives religion a bad name.

  • Keith

    “Senior Muslims have warned the Government that it needed to revise British foreign policy if it wants to put an end to the violence.”

    The government does, indeed need to revise Brit foreign policy–it needs to root out and kill the financiers and prominent anti-Western clerics wherever they are.

  • Perry said: People reading this blog may or may not share my enthusiasm for the war in Iraq, but even if you were an ‘anti’, make no mistake, what these ‘senior Muslims’ are demanding is nothing less that capitulation to terrorism.

    ————-

    As a Muslim, I totally agree with Perry.

    No matter what the current foreign policy of the United Kingdom is, indiscriminately killing those who have nothing to do politics or the war that’s going on is simply murder.

    Period.

    I wonder what the so-called cleric in question would say if one of his loved-ones was killed in the incident.

  • John Steele

    James

    This is not the same world as that of our fathers and grandfathers.

    …What if we really got serious with them?…” It isn’t that we are not physically capable of dealing with it, the problem is that we may no longer have the will for the hard job.

    Just look at the immediate reaction to July 11 on the left — basically what did we do wrong and how can we make it right. I’m sure you heard the exchange between the moronic reporter and John Howard the other day. Howard has it exactly right, but the question is how long can Howard, Blair, Bush et al hold out against an onslaught of appeasers. This isn’t like the Blitz or Pearl Harbor.

    Yesterday the US House overwhelmingly defeated a resolution to withdraw the troops from Iraq and close Gitmo. It isn’t that the motion was roundly defeated, the problem is that it was ever proposed in the first place.

  • Julian Morrison

    These guys aren’t moderate. I propose a better word: they are “diplomatic” moslems. They believe the same nonsense but they’re trying to be polite about it. Seeing them as diplomats might also provide the proper context: nobody expected the Soviet Russian ambassador to be anything but smooth and conciliatory, but that didn’t make the Soviets safe neighbors.

    The problem is that moderation and Islam-by-the-book seems to be polar opposites. Ergo, real moderates are lapsed, lazy or heretical moslems, lacking voice. It seems that Islam itself (the meme, not the people) needs to be tamed down. The Koran needs to be torn up and rewritten.

    Suggestions?

  • John – the point is, we aren’t even close to crisis points like the Blitz or Pearl Harbour. As horrific as 9/11 was, it was hardly a sign of weakness. We were surprised because they hit us when they were so weak and we were so strong. Now they are even weaker and we are getting stronger. Would 9/11 ever happen again? In another guise, perhaps. Perhaps worse. The point is, we aren’t vulnerable yet, not like in the days of the Blitz, when Western civilisation hung by a thread. Not even close. They’ve barely scratched us. New York, Bali, Madrid, London; these are small beans when compared against the body blows we’re raining on them. And we’re barely trying. This isn’t a world war type scenario. This is nothing. If they did hit us and it really, really hurt, and we smelt mortal danger, then the appeasers would melt away or they would be dissolved. I have absolute faith in the fact that we will prevail.

  • This is the other side of terrorism,we have seen it before,”the Armalite and the Ballot Box”.
    Terror works,it is the application of violence to political ends,most politicians cannot cope with it because our electoral process endows them with spines of jelly.The ruling elite may not have the stomach for the fight but th people have.Politicians will have to decide who the are more afraid of, the people or the terrorists.
    Blair may depend on the Muslim vote to retain power,but he must realise that if he betrays the British people again his place in history will that of a collaborator.

  • Eric Anondson

    I wonder what the so-called cleric in question would say if one of his loved-ones was killed in the incident.

    A common response heard from happy parents (not all parents, just the proud ones) of suicide bombers is: “It is the will of God.”

  • Is it impossible to believe that deception of the infidel is considered the height of Islamic virtue? It was said of Arafat that he was “radicalized” by the 1967 war, when Israel took over Jerusalem, the West Bank and Sinai. Then someone pointed out that Arafat had been leading terror raids into Israel BEFORE 1967. The apologists will never stop, but they are being increasingly discredited. Too bad it takes so many dead bodies of innocents to complete the process.

  • HJHJ

    Perry,

    I think that you have perhaps fallen into the way of thinking that you were criticising earlier, i.e. that of a collectivist view of the world. (I quote you here: “to call for expelling ‘Muslims’, simply because they are Muslims, is the sort of wilful blindness and one size fits all collectivism of a sort I would rather leave to socialists of both left and right:)

    I don’t agree with Azzam Tamimi or Massoud Shadjareh. In fact, I think they’re utterly wrong. However, it isn’t clear that they’re issuing any sort of threat or condoning violence, merely stating their view, however misguided, that the violence will go on whilst the Iraq situation exists and of criticising western government policies. But if they were threatening violence, it is them as individuals you should want action against, not of “his (Massoud Shadjareh’s) community”.

    If you want to put them into a group of those with similar views, you’re more likely to find that there is a better fit with the views of typical Guardian readers and columnists than Muslims (I know several Muslims and I can tell you that they were/are not uniformly against the Iraq war or western actions in the region).

    Let’s challenge, every time it is asserted, the view that the situation in Iraq and the middle east in general is somehow western oppression of muslims as a collective entity. It obviously isn’t, but if we attack muslims as a group, rather than the irrational views of individuals, then we fall into the collectivist trap that these individuals have set.

  • Pete_London

    Does a voice for ‘moderate’ Islam in Britain actually exist?

    Yes, and Tamimi is that voice. What are commonly thought of as ‘moderate’ muslims are extremely thin on the ground. As I said in an earlier thread, the moderate Sir Iqbal Sacranie thought nothing of snubbing an invite to attend the 60th anniversay of the liberation of Auschwitz.

    I’ve known many muslims for many years and made a point of asking about Islam and the West, global affairs, Israel, terrorism etc. I haven’t met one, not even the drinking, smoking, clean shaven, jeans wearing ones, who who doesn’t make Michael Moore sound like the voice of reason. For years I’ve heard from the mouths of muslims that Islam is everything, that the future belongs to them, that Britain and the West is nothing.

    The entire left, Blair, Livingstone, the Guardian, liberals, multiculties, the whole lot of the we must reach out to them crew are in dreamland. There are no truly moderate muslims to reach out to.

  • Verity

    The “moderate” Iqbal Sacranie has been influential in getting this fascist “incitement to religious hatred” bill into Parliament. He’s so “moderate”, he doesn’t believe in free speech. All this “reaching out to moderate Muslims” is so much pigswill.

  • Give them a chance. Let this silent Muslim majority speak. However, they better speak bloody quickly, lest they be considered an apparition.

  • It is important to understand the The Muslim Association of Britain was founded by the extremist Muslim Brotherhood,there is no moderation there.
    It is time that the nature of some of these organisations was spelled out rather than avoiding the issue and allowing them to hide behind our descrimination laws.Inspecting our colons at close quarters is not going to provide enlightenment.

  • John

    Only slightly OT, Laban Tall (Link)is reporting

    Trainee journalist Dilpazier Aslam had his contract with the Guardian terminated today.
    The move followed an internal inquiry into Aslam’s membership of the political organisation Hizb ut-Tahrir.

    Looks like Scott Burgess has collected the first MSM scalp in Britain. This calls for Zydeco and a batch of Hurricanes.

  • Regab

    Robert Spiers says

    Is it impossible to believe that deception of the infidel is considered the height of Islamic virtue?

    Anyone searching for the voice of moderate Islam should heed these words. Sadly our leaders are in too deep to back out now. I don’t know which is worse, our political elite (Cherie “Jilbab” Blair, Sir Ian “no problem with fundamentalism” Blair, “soon to be Sir” Brian “Islam and terrorism don’t go together.” Paddick, Greg “hideously white” Dyke etc) or Muslim fundamentalists. One is a politically motivated group bent on destroying British culture and if given their way will turn Britain into a Muslim society and the other is run by that bloke with the hooks.

  • Dave

    Regab: you forget to mention the Tories.
    I mean wtf are they doing, what have they been doing for the last 10 years. They have seriously let down anyone who never supported them.

  • HJHJ:

    I think that you have perhaps fallen into the way of thinking that you were criticising earlier, i.e. that of a collectivist view of the world.

    How so? I am not calling for drastic action against the entire Muslim community in Britain, I am just predicting that that is exactly what will happen unless the Islamic ‘moderates’ of whom we are so often told about start making themselves heard in language which does not make them appear ever more at odds with non-Muslim British people.

    Having just watched ‘Inside Islam’ on SkyNews, in which a room full of media talking heads and sundry British Muslims aired their views… well, it that is the best we can expect, they are closer to the abyss than I feared. Sorry but if their response to this is “So stop supporting Israel and stop sending troops to Iraq” then the Muslim community is the UK is heading for disaster. This not my desire to see their relations with the rest of Britain collapse but it is my view of where we are heading and no amount of speeches by Tony Blair or editorials in newspapers will be able to stop that.

    I hope I am wrong but I doubt it.

  • Verity

    Tony Blair’s blindness to facts is willful and treasonous. The Koran specifically directs Muslims to lie to “infidels” with a view to converting them to islam. “Taqqiya and kitman” is a phrase meaning “bait n switch” and is a well-known ploy in the hadiths (can’t remember the numbers). Draw the “infidel” into a discussion about islam and be all charm and reason, and tell any lie you deem necessary to assuage any doubts. Say absolutely anything you have to say to get their confidence.

    This is a direct instruction to Muslims. It does not come labelled: “Instructions for Militant Muslims” or “Instructions for Moderate Muslims”. This is their instruction right out of their holy book to convert the world to islam. Lie.

  • Robert

    Julian Morrison,

    In some ways Islam is at the stage that Christianity was 800 years ago. Religious texts and debates are in classical Arabic, a language which most Muslims can’t understand – just like medieval European peasants could not understand Latin but were still expected to live by the Latin version of the bible.

    I haven’t read the Koran or the Bible but from excerpts and quotations I have seen it would be perfectly possible to justify anything you wanted with selective quotations from either work; suicide bombings, slavery, non-tolerance of homsexuality, wearing a veil, whatever. The Christian Bible has at least been translated into most European languages and interested parties can refer to the source text and argue things out. The Koran has, by and large, not been translated into local Arabic languages and is therefore beyond the practical understanding of the “Arab Street” The interpreters of the Koran are those scholars who have taken the time to learn classical Arabic and therefore may tend to have a different outlook on life than people who have to earn the money that pays for them.

    The other point is that Koranic scholarship still regards the Koran as the literal word of God, no metaphors, no allusions – straight word of God no dispute allowed. This type of fundamental literalism was abandoned by mainstream Christian theologians a long time ago.

    The West could do worse than translate the Koran into local dialects and publish it on the Internet or even drop it from planes! We need an Islamic Martin Luther to open up the religion.

  • Regab

    Dave says I forget to mention the Tories. He’s right of course and what about UKIP. The three top stories from their website are:

    FSA chief hits at EU investment marketing rules

    A Report from the UKIP NEC Meeting Held 19th July 2005

    Al-Qa’eda suspect freed as Germany rules EU extradition warrant illegal

    Just what we were talking about down the Dog and Duck this evening.
    What does that leave us?

  • Splendid idea, Robert!

    Moreover, I would like to see recording made of the preaching in British mosques and then translations of them reely distributed just as you could with a Christian sermon if you we so inclined. Let us see what they are saying to each other and force their views out into the open.

  • Jonathan

    good post. I hope that today’s dreadful events will unite the country, and stop the whingers and fools who talk about ‘civil liberties’ and oppose the government’s heroic efforts to pretect us. ID cards, house arrest, we need it now. This is not a game. This is war.

  • Oh, another bloody troll. How exactly would ID cards protect us against UK nationals (who would have ID cards) from blowing themselves up on a bus?

  • Verity

    Don’t let the troll deflect our attention from the value of Robert’s suggestion.

  • Tony

    They’d better find those ‘moderates’ fast, time is running out.

    The Muslim world needs a Reformation and one might also add, a Renaissance as well (and throw in The Enlightenment for good measure). It took Europe some 300 years to do that, and that was with a lot of people wanting it to happen. The Muslim world, by the unhappy circumstance of being a 7th Century culture finding itself in the 21st Century with its accelerating rates of change, does not have 300 years – or rather, the rest of the World cannot afford those 300 years for the Muslim world to put it’s house in order. Not with the weapons that are now available – it’s simply too dangerous.

  • Snide

    Don’t let the troll deflect our attention from the value of Robert’s suggestion

    What value? If they are on the other side and not Brits, throw them out. If they are Brits and on the other side, charge them with treason. No new laws needed, no ID cards needed, no house arrest needed, no Robert needed. If you cannot see an Agent Provocateur for what they are when they are standing in front of you mooning in your direction, Verity my dear, you really need new specs.

  • Dave

    I also just saw ‘Inside Islam’ on SkyNews, was kind of shocked (well not shocked but strongly supprised) by it.
    Aparently, Tony Blair is as a sucide bomber in a suit, Bush Blair Sharon and Osama are the equally bad, The West needs to get out of Muslim lands.
    “Only” 2% of Muslims asked supported the london bombings, well 2% of 1.6 million is 32000 ffs!
    I expected that from many of the nutters but these were moderates and seemed to have as big a chip on their shoulders as anyone. It seemed like the “West” was responsible for all the problems in the world.

  • Verity

    Snide – Here’s a little test for you. Cover one eye and read these letters: R o b e r t.

    Now cover the other eye and read these letters: J o n a t h a n.

    1. Robert has made an intelligent and interesting contribution. “Jonathan” is the troll.

    2. Ad hominen attacks have been fatwa-ed by Perry, as you know.

  • Verity

    Dave – they see all the problems in the world as stemming from the immoral West. Where’s the big surprise? Just because you may know Muslim men who drink and smoke doesn’t mean they condone that behaviour in others. They would kill a wife who screwed around and drank, or a daughter who screwed around and drank.

    You cannot take anything they say seriously, because it is all about tricking the listener.

  • Dave

    yes I know there are some like that Verity but not all. I guess the big question is how many.

  • Pete_London

    Dave

    It’s not pollen irritating your eyes, it’s the scales falling away.

  • Verity

    Dave – it is in their hadiths. I wish Susan were here because she is so well-educated in this and I cannot imagine why she is staying away. But, Dave, lying to non-believers, who aren’t really considered whole people, is not only permitted, but encouraged.

    Dave, there may well be some moderate Muslims. I have met urbane and witty Muslim men and some of them may be genuinely moderate. But lurking underneath is always the thought that, however engaging their conversation may be, they view you in their heart of hearts as less than a human being because you haven’t submitted to the will of allah.

    Muslim women are a little more open because, what the hell, what do they have to lose?

    I would contend that you will find the number of genuinely “moderate Muslims”, if it ever comes to light, disappointing.

  • Pete_London

    I posted about Irshad Manji in the previous thread, the wrong place as it turns out. Sod it, just read the main piece on her front page, it’s very short.

    In brief, I think we may actually have our first moderate muslim! Wonders never cease. No ‘ifs’, no ‘buts’, no equivocation. People will be telling me next that England has no chance of spanking those Aussie cricket chaps this summer. Pah! If we can find that one moderate muslim those ashes will be ours yet.

  • Verity

    Pete – why was it the wrong place? I went to the link, as I think many will, and thought it smashing.

    Why doesn’t someone email her and ask her to take a look at, and hopefully comment on, Samizdata? She clearly has an outstanding mind and perspective.

  • Pete_London

    Verity

    I meant that this thread is led by Perry’s question,
    “Does a voice for ‘moderate’ Islam in Britain actually exist?”

    I posted first about about Irshad Manji under the previous thread, “The appropriate use of force.” A little pedantic but mention of her is more appropriate here.

    An email is an excellent idea. You can never have too many good and honest people so I’ll send one off.

  • Pete_London

    Verity again

    Browsing around Irshad Manji’s site – this page on her book – I see she asks the two pertinent questions:

    At the beginning of my book, I call myself a “Muslim Refusenik”. That doesn’t mean I refuse to be a Muslim; it means that I refuse to join an army of automatons in the name of God.

    In that spirit, I’m asking Muslims in the West a very basic question: Will we remain spiritually infantile, caving to cultural pressures to clam up and conform, or will we mature into full-fledged citizens, defending the very pluralism that allows us to be in this part of the world in the first place?

    My question for non-Muslims is equally basic: Will you succumb to the intimidation of being called “racists,” or will you finally challenge us Muslims to take responsibility for our role in what ails Islam?

  • Verity

    Pete_London – This gal is awe inspiring. Clever, clever, clever with a nice edge of self-confidence. She is what Islam, if it is to take its place in a pluralistic society, needs. Not Sickbal Sacranie and Igloo (Inuit Bungalow) and all those creepy manipulators.

    I’m glad you’ve sent her an email! I hope she joins us …

  • Samsung

    News just in…

    The famed “moderate” Muslims will be meeting soon to discuss the problem with Radical Islamism, terrorism and the hatred for the West within our British Muslim society. These famed “moderate” Muslims will be meeting within a London phone booth this weekend.

    It is believed that EVERY “moderate” muslim in Britain will be attending. But never the less, there should be plenty of space available within the phone booth so all comers are welcome to join the discussion, including infidels and kafirs…. but NO Jews please.

  • Verity

    Samsung – OK, moderate islamics in a phone box, so that would leave plenty of room for the caterers?

  • fleishet

    Not sure if this has been mentioned but people have asked for translations of what is said at Mosques etc. Possible the next best thing is The Middle EastMedia Research Institute that translate Arabic, Farsi, and Hebrew news media (newspapers/TV etc)…with quite disturbing results.

    (Link)

  • Gayle

    Wow, deja-vu all over again. Here in the US, the calls for “moderate” muslims to denounce the perpetrators of 9/11 and their creed of islamofascism were loud and long, to be answered only sporadically and with the usual dreadful “but”. This also happened after the Bali bombing, same result. Good luck getting someone to speak up, guys.

  • Pete_London

    fleishet

    Haven’t you heard? MEMRI is a Jewish organisation, according to George Galloway. That makes it verboten. Why would that be?

  • Now there’s real faith – the idea that the Muslim Refusenik site will come to anything. The Muslim world will have no difficulty ignoring Irshad Manji, because she’s a woman, and therefore of no consequence.

  • ernest young

    And to think that Enoch Powell was undeservedly berated as a racist, the man was the most underrated jntellectual of post war Britain, such a pity that he was so out of his depth in the political world.

    One of his biggest foes’ being ‘Big dumb Ted’, the British quisling, the two crossing swords over the philosophy of the EU, where Bully Boy Ted usually prevailed over the more circumspect Enoch.

    The man was also an awesome prophet…and a true English patriot.

  • John Steele

    perry:

    Splendid idea, Robert!

    Moreover, I would like to see recording made of the preaching in British mosques and then translations of them reely distributed just as you could with a Christian sermon if you we so inclined. Let us see what they are saying to each other and force their views out into the open.

    As I recall, Commons just passed a relgious hate speech law roundly supported by the “Muslim community”. Unless I miss my guess this law will be vigorously employed to prevent any open public discussion of Islam. The one thing Islamic teachings cannot stand is the light of open discussion. And Parliament has just handed them the silencer.

  • Denise W

    Pete and Verity

    Ah, yes! I can’t believe I had totally forgotten about Irshad Manji! I didn’t think there were any true moderate muslims either. After clicking on Pete’s link, I just remembered an interview with her on Fox News a long while back. Brilliant woman! Maybe there is hope after all!

  • JimM

    “They have absolutely (have) no idea of the magnitude of fury and genius that can be ranged against them.”

    Oh, I think they have a good idea of the power of WMD, they just don’t realize the prevailing winds flow from west to east and fallout would kill them as well. The only Muslims left would be those living in the UK and other Western countries. Maybe that’s the answer for Islam, to start over, and this time get their religion in a langauge they understand, truly peaceful, and tolerant.

    They can not win!!

  • Tony

    JimM,
    If nuclear weapons were used in the West, the resultant fallout on the the East would be neglble, for the simple reason that the Jihadis would not have that many weapons to use.

    Even the fallout from the resultant Western response can be heavily reduced if Neutron (enhanced radiation) weapons are used – after all, that was their purpose in the cold war. The link also states that the effectiveness of a neutron weapon is greatly enhanced in desert environments due to the lack of humidity.

    Just one more reason why it would not be clever to tweak the West’ tail too often…

  • Findlay Dnachie

    There are plenty of Muslims who favour our action in Iraq, viz, most Iraqis, and would certainly not want “a change in our foreign policy”

    Why aren’t they given a voice here?

    Even the BBC, after the usual report about how terrible things are in Baghdad (which puts our troubles in the shade) admitted: “yet most Iraqis are hopeful about the future.”

    They’d lived under the regime of Saddam Hussain. Our “moderate” Muslims haven’t.

    The Muslim attitude is “it’s OK for Muslims to Kill Muslims” (eg Iran-Iraq War, Darfur), but for anyone else (Christians, Jews &al) to do so is definitely “terrorism”, no matter who they are or what they’ve done.

  • Ring

    Regarding Irshad Manji, not only is she an outspoken female, but a lesbian also. Talk about making yourself a target for Islamic ire. (Link)

    Regarding moderates, the organization who claim to be moderate often iterate the talking points of the terrorists, foreign policy, Iraq etc.. Given that we know that these are not the real reasons for bombings, is it not fair to say that they are accomplices in terms of spreading terrorist propaganda? Why does nobody turn around and ask them why Thailand, Bali or Africa is and are facing Islamic terror? I didn’t realise Darfur had troops in Iraq.

    In addition, isn’t it a little rich to be demanding another country get out of their country, while they are living, working (and bombing) in the other country?

  • It not exactly like some of these people hide their ideas. They just make nice to politicians and then go abroad or out of the country to spew the same hatred of Jews and others as the “extremists”. Let’s hope the Police (and I suspect they do) read things like MEMRI. Its all there in black and white the people causing the trouble don’t exactly hide themselves (hence why the ID argument is idiotic). Why don’t the authorities go get em?

  • Pete_London

    “There are no truly moderate muslims to reach out to. ”

    It certainly looks very much like it. I have known several moderate people of muslim background, but, without exception, they have given up their religion.

  • Julian Taylor

    Force them all to learn how to play cricket I say. No country that plays cricket has ever gone to war with another one (India and Pakistan only have occasional border skirmishes), even Sistani in Iraq agrees. Hell, lets start with the Gitmo internees, unless they’ve already been corrupted by having to learn baseball.

  • Jabba the Tutt

    Dee wrote: “What confused me and I have never seen a proper explanation, is why, the abhorrent leader of the BNP is proscecuted for making racist remarks, whilst the equally abhorrent Islmamic Cleric Bakri Mohammed makes racist/homophobic remarks and, as far as I know, has never been arrested for inciting hatred.”

    There’s politically incorrect hatred, BNP against dark-skinned people, and there’s politically correct hatred, Islamo-fascist hatred against Western civilization, globalization, capitalism, Christianity and freedom. You just have to hate the ‘right’ stuff.

    “Blind hate against the enemy creates a forceful impulse that cracks the boundaries of natural human limitations, transforming the soldier in an effective, selective and cold killing machine. A people without hate cannot triumph against the adversary.” This is a quote from Che and who’s more politically correct than he?

  • Geoffrey Parmer

    I think it would help certain British Muslim Leaders and their communities empathize with the anger and frustration felt by victims of Islamic terror attacks if Tony Blair adopted the following policy: First, Blair instructs MI5 to detonate two bombs per week in Mosques during crowded services. Then, immediately following each bombing, Tony Blair goes on TV and states: “We deplore these horrible attacks and the people who committed them, whoever they may be. We equally condemn those who are quick to blame MI5 without gathering all of the facts. Let me assure you that MI5 is all about peace and justice. If it turns out that this bombing was committed by a member of MI5, that person in no way represents what MI5 stands for. In closing, while I unconditionally condemn these bombings, I can understand why a member of MI5 would want to blow up a mosque, particularly with all of the ‘death to England’ rubbish. Therefore, in order to avoid further loss of life, the Muslim community needs to address the root causes of why a member of MI5 would want to blow them up. Thank you for listening.”

  • kalikan

    Force them all to learn how to play cricket I say.

    Exactly. Whenever one sees news reports from Pakistan the ‘mood shots’ show cricket taking place on every available piece of open ground. If most Pakistanis realised that if the Islamofascists had their way then there would be no more cricket, then they may have cause to reconsider their blind faith.

    On a slightly related note, my father was stationed in Iraq as part of his National Service in the early 50s. He remembers that the Iraqis were obsessed with football. His base had a real problem with Iraqis hanging around, and wandering up to the squaddies – not to blow themselves up, but to try to challenge them to a game of football, or just to talk about Stanley Matthews!

    There are obviously some parts of ‘Western Imperialism’ that the Middle East is happy to adopt.

  • Verity

    Julian Taylor – Pakistan and India only have occasional border skirmishes? Wha’? Bombs have been going of in Kashmir and people have been being killed on a weekly basis for 20 straight years, especially north of Kargil.

    The “border skirmishes” are such a grave threat to national security that India developed the nuclear bomb – quickly followed by a wannabee Pakistan.

    Both nations are jammed with keen cricketers.

  • Verity

    The link Ring provided, The Ace of Spades, sums this whole Islamic mess up in a couple of terse sentences. Paraphrasing – the Islamics – including the “moderates” – sincerely, deeply believe that the world must inevitably turn to allah and Islam. And, with the genuis and liberty of the flourishing West, they can’t see how this is going to happen. They regard us as squatters in the way of progress towards allah and they are incensed, outraged and seething that we will not GTF out of the way. That sums it up in a nutshell, and explains why there are, in effect, no “moderate” Islamics. They are ALL furious with us for being in the way of their god’s great plan for dar-es-salaam.

  • fFreddy

    Proposal for a new law :

    All remains of successful suicide bombers, once scraped off the walls, should be buried wrapped in pig skins and anything else the koran doesn’t like.

    That should help to smoke out any real moderate muslims. Make sure the law is widely known and it might help to discourage the silly sods as well.

  • Verity

    fFreddy – No, because I like pigs. They are interesting and intelligent and shouldn’t have to die just to insult Islam. Plenty of things insult Islam. The choice is endless. How about burying them covered with dog poop? This way, no dog will be harmed in the cause of Islam and the corpse will be utterly defiled. Even touching a non-pooping dog is an offence to allah because it is UNCLEAN. So dog poo has my vote. Then cremate them. They can’t get into islamic heaven if they’re cremated.

  • Verity

    In fact, Battersea Dogs’ Home could sell its dog poo output to London Transport and turn a pretty penny.

  • Verity,
    You 2:57 pm answers the question of why the left is in bed with Islamofascism

  • fFreddy

    Good grief, moslems can’t even play with a nice pooch ? No wonder they are so bloody miserable.

    I’m not particularly looking to insult Islam, it is quite capable of doing that to itself. I was just wondering if there was any practical way of short-circuiting the brain-washers’ line about “this way to the 72 virgins”.
    Are you sure on that cremation point ? Is there any way that it could be argued to not apply in this case ?

  • Julian Taylor

    Talking of which, does a martyr get the 72 virgins/houris/raisins/cold glasses of wine (depending upon your translation of Asyrian scripture) if they fell over at the last second and got shot 5 times in the back of the neck?

  • Verity

    Julian – They have to die by their own hand to qualify as a martyr. Being wasted by Special Services a split second before they got their finger on the detonator doesn’t count for diddley. An opportunity blown, so to speak.

    fFreddy – No. No frisbees with rover. Even if a happy doggie wagging its tail happens to brush it against your leg – you’ve been defiled.

    Muslims cannot be cremated and get into heaven. Don’t know whether there is any special dispensation for if you got burned by someone else, but knowing the absolute rigidity of Islam, my guess is not. But it’s a guess.

  • Johnathan Pearce

    Findlay makes a good point. None of these “moderate” Muslims ever accepts that millions of their brethren have suffered under the Taliban/Saddam and both of those disgusting regimes were removed by the Texan idiot. Nor doy they acknowledge the protection of Muslims in the Balkans, again by NATO forces.

    Even if our foreign policy is wrong or misguided, these people are treading on dangerous ground by implying that the way to cease terror attacks is to change course. It would be a bit like a German telling Churchill that the way to stop the Blitz on London would be to let Hitler roam free.

    I increasingly suspect that the answer to Perry’s original question is, “No.”.

  • Verity

    A YouGov poll indicates that one in four Muslims in Britain “can understand” domestic terrorism.

    (Link)

  • Verity,
    Cherie Booth understands Palestinian bombers,Newt Livingstone undersatands suicide bombers,so does Ian(no relation) Blair.It would hardly be fair the leave the mainstream of the RoP out would it.
    I would like to see the poll taken amongst the left.

  • Verity

    Peter – You are right. But where do we put Brian Paddick in all this? Terrorists who are islamic don’t bomb anything – they don’t even belong in the same sentence! – so that leaves him with a dearth of understanding opportunities.

    Could we just reiterate, for all the morons who are gearing up to mouth or type the word “Iraq” – the terrorist splodeydopes have been operating since 1983, when four or five splodeydopes drove a wired truck into a US Marine compound. 2005 minus 1983 = 22 years. The Achille Lauro was also around 22 years ago. And when did the Iranians seize the American Embassy? 1979, I believe.

    Could people please, please, please stop saying “Iraq”. These people hate the West because we are in the way of dar-es-salaam and we are too robust for them. It has nothing to do with Iraq. Iraq was a secular nation. It wasn’t even an Islamic republic.

  • paul a'barge

    Gratuitous crap, i.e. entire comment, edited out

  • conan

    Islam was founded by a bandit and tyrant. Islam is the only religion with rules on how to divide the booty after an armed robbery. It is also the only religion that explicitly allows the rape and enslavement of females captured in holy war. “Moderate” muslims are either non-practising muslims or living in denial. Anyone who believes the Quran and the Hadiths will believe that Jihad is a religious duty for muslims, that the jihad must continue until a tyrannical Caliph rules the world, that getting killed in the Jihad is the best way to get to paradise, that the final act of jihad will be the extermination of the jews.

  • This frustrates me so much. Glib statements about terrorism are enormously unhelpful whether they emerge from the apologist self-loathing left or the populist right.

    There are a number of causes of Islamic fundamentalist terrorism but it strikes me as common sense that the root cause is Islamic fundamentalism. Simple.

    As for Iraq, it’s part of the short-term problem AND part of the long term solution. A prosperous and democratic Iraq will go a long way to reducing the risk of terrorist attacks even if, in the short term, the war will be used as a pretext by Islamic radicals.

    But the idea that we should get out of Iraq, and the Muslim world generally, is sickening. People on the left would happily abandon the middle east to the fascists which, aside from being morally despicable, would make us barely safer.

  • Verity

    Jacob – Few people commenting on this blog want us to get out of Iraq. Many, if not most, would agree with you. We need a prosperous and democratic Iraq, not just because that would be very nice for the Iraqis, but because it will provide an object lesson and – more important – a warning to other countries in the region.

    As for Israel, the only long-term solution I can think of is for it to apply for statehood in the US. Its presence as an independent country is always going to be a thorn in these people’s sides – and, like the rest of the human race, they can carry grudges for centuries. If it’s an American state, they would accept that their ambitions to destroy it can never happen, and maybe they’d stop trying.

    As it happens, I would also like to see Britain apply. Or to become a state of Oz. That would be rather fun.

  • Verity,
    Sorry, yes … i understand the nature of this blog and read it fairly regularly but am an infrequent poster. My apologies.

    But Israel as a US state? Isn’t that basically the way people in the middle east see Israel anyway?

  • Verity

    Yes, Jacob, but not de facto. When the American flag flies over the airports and post offices and government buildings and it sinks in that this is American soil, and that bombing Israel means you’ve bombed the United States – I just think that even the people directing the splodeydopes could take the point.

    They might like to try bombing Saudi Arabia, which could have absorbed the entire “Palestinian” population as workers by now but has instead used them as a proxy for their grudges.

  • barbara humber

    If the Brits and US made a law that the families and extensions of any proven terriorist will have their visas and citizenship revoked and be deported, I’ll bet some of these suicide bombings would stop.

    barbara

  • Verity

    I wouldn’t argue with you, but revoking citizenship is not, at this time, an option in the UK and given Blair’s opportunistic love of the tranzis, there is no hope of such a law in Britain.

  • Jonathan Neill

    Let us all remember that, in the past, entire groups of people have been exterminated for reasons that, to us, seem cruel or absurd. But if the terror attacks increase (instead of abate) and the Muslim communities in the West don’t come out and denouce them and work with us to stop them, forcibly kicking them out might be the most humane thing to do, considering the loss of life that would occur in a worldwide Blitz-style campaign.

  • Oliver

    One phrase I found interesting in an Australian newspaper report was that one of the bombers had gone “off the rails, dating British women”…

    The assumption in this left me incredulous: namely the idea that for this muslim youth, himself apparently British, to date ‘British women’ – for which read ‘white’: so clearly a bunch of haram-unclean sluts – was considered a pathological act in the muslim community of Leeds. So sex-hating, so racist, so breathtaking in its backwardness… The pathetic murderer to be should have considered himself lucky, imho…

  • Verity

    Well, Oliver, think about it. They think even their own women are unclean. If they’ve got washed to go to prayers and they accidently touch a woman, that renders them unclean and they have to go and get washed all over again. They are absolutely bonkers. And don’t forget, they can’t touch a woman not in their own family. They can’t shake hands with a woman. Jeeze. Women aren’t supposed to leave the house unless accompanied by a family male – even if it’s a young kid. He is automatically the adult and the grown woman is the juvenile. They are sickening.

    Any religion that has too many rituals – and in islam, there’s a rule for everything – is obessive and unhealthy.

    This primitive religion is elevated by the multicultis into being equal to Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism – and it’s not. It is a primitive, superstition-laden cult.

  • fFreddy

    And they don’t like dogs.
    Clearly haven’t got the hang of this civilisation business.