In some previous discussions on failings of the American forces I received a firestorm of protest. I never backed down on my opinion that annoying decent Iraqi’s and shooting wildly is not a way to win hearts and minds.
I’m rather chuffed the Marines agree with me… and so do the 101st Airborne. Both have done magnificent jobs in their regions. They are largely unsung on the nightly news. Reporters ignore them because success does not fit the discourse they write within.
It is interesting to note the Marines running the Najaf region have not lost a soldier since May. [Note that all casualties are declining].
Marines give the CPA (“Can’t Provide Anything”) low marks, closely followed by the forces around Baghdad. I must admit the central region around Baghdad/Tikrit is where the most bad guys went to ground and is thus inherently more dangerous. The Army hasn’t bolloxed the job but I think the Marines would have done a better one.
So let the inter-service flame war begin!
I found the link at Instapundit and thought it well worth the attention of our readers.
Has anyone mapped out the figures? It’d be useful to see the distribution of casualties across Iraq and have it differentiate between soldiers and civilians.
I dunno about all this.
Apparently, from one thing I’ve seen, the reaction of the Army vs. the Marines may be to blame.
The Marine reaction rpg’s was an overwhelming response. I also heard the Marines were broadcasting messages during the war along the lines of “Surrender now. You will be well treated. You already know how efficiently we can kill you.” or something like that.
The Army reaction apparently was not so…firm.
Still, I don’t think anybody will dispute that the 3rd and 4th Infantry and 1st Armored divisions got the shit detail in Baghdad and the Sunni Triangle.
One thing I noted about the Marines tactics. While they put a fair amount of effort into community relations, when attacked, they go all out to kill the attacker.
If a Marine convoy is attacked, it stops, the Marines pile out, and they go hunting. If an Army convoy is attacked, it runs away. As always in warfare, standing and fighting is safer for the troops than running and hiding.
“No better friend” is all well and good, but in the mideast it makes you a patsy and a target unless you are also “No worse enemy.”
The Army seems to always be more political in doing its job (see: killing people and breaking things), whereas the Marines don’t seem to have any problem about what they are supposed to be doing. I have also read that Iraq insurgents respected the Marines more because when you engaged the Marines they shot back. The Marines also fight offensively and the Army fights defensively. Its easy to see who’s right and what works.
According theo US Marine Major General Mattis, “When someone needs shooting, shoot them. When they don’t need shooting, protect them.”
Is it just me or has anyone noticed that there have been no allied fatalities the last week or so? And yes, the Marine ethos of ‘everyman a rifleman’ is at odds with the Army of which a very large part see their raison d’etre as being something other than actually, you know, fighting and stuff.
And just for the record, the bulk of my career in the army was spent herding tanks in the cavalry, doesn’t get much pointier than that in the regular branches.
Yes, I’ve been holding my breath on it. Must have been like that for Joltin’ Joe’s hitting streak… None since Sept 2. It has been noted on a number of blogs too.
There will (unfortuneately) be more casualties. But the trend line does look hopeful.
It seems we’re comparing apples and oranges. But being retired Army, I would say that, wouldn’t I?
As someone points out above, the Army has the “shit detail” — Baghdad and the Triangle. If one insists on comparing the services, the war itself serves as the better comparison. During those 20 days, the 3rd Inf Div (Mech) surely performed as well as the 1st Marine Div.
The Army and Marines have different jobs. Much like Infantry isn’t Artillery and neither are Armor. Marines excel at “small wars” type stuff. The Army is designed to blow big wholes in the enemy’s army. If there’s a war in N. Korea, the US Army will play to its strengths which the Marines can’t do because it doesn’t have the heavy equipment.
The US Airborne is more like the Marines because it’s a rapid reaction force designed to act like the Marines. Both are incidentally “elite” forces because of that. Not special forces good, but elite in that they’re still small, have a strong identity, and highly trained.
There will be a lot to learn from the Iraq experience about military policing of conquered areas. I don’t know how many conclusions we can rightly draw now, however. It looks to me as if most of what mistakes have been made have been political errors unrelated to unit or service doctrine.
As to what the reporters are trying to convey, I think a fair amount of that results from their being stationed in Baghdad and not wandering very far from that city. That’s not entirely a critical comment; if you don’t speak Arabic and have never been in the country before you don’t have much choice. The media went into this war with at least as many deficiencies as the allied military.
I’m the first to admit that I don’t know much about military tactics. But I’ve been hearing two stories.
Story one goes “The Marines are much more effective than the Army. They are more aggressive and more decisive, and that works. The Army acts defensively and that doesn’t. The Marines act like a fighting force; the Army is trying to act like policeman and that confuses their mission and reduces their effectiveness. The Marines have clearcut distinctions that others can relate to: if people need protecting, they protect them; if they need shooting, they shoot them. The Iraqi’s respect that”.
Story two goes “The British are much more effective than the Americans. All the Americans do is run around and shoot people: the British don’t just talk about hearts and minds but actually practice it. American soldiers spend all their time behind armour – or body armour and mirror shades; British soldiers go out into the community. Americans import a whole town to feed and entertain their troops; British troops off duty go out into the city. The defining experience of the American military was Vietnam, where every civilian was a potential guerrilla fighter and every house could hide a sniper. The defining experience of the British army was Northern Ireland, where the locals have more in common with the soldiers than they have different, they all speak the same language (literally and figuratively), and the emphasis is on protection from a small minority of terrorists, not major confrontation or suppression of mass insurgency.”
I don’t know which story is true. I guess probably a bit of both: they’re probably not wholly mutually exclusive. But the two stories do come across that way.
I don’t think the two are contradictory. The British in Basra seem to be doing the same sort of thing the Marines are doing. It’s the forces in Baghdad that are holed up in a compound. Even Chief Wiggles admits he doesn’t go outside the compound very often.
I have read all the comments about the Army vs. The Marines. I would like to mention that me, as a Marine that was in Iraq from March – April, I do see a difference between the two services, not just by what I’ve read, but with what I lived, their was an Army unit attached to us, and I saw the difference. When we were shot at during a convoy, all of us jump out of our vehicle and immediately returned fired at 4 iraqis, we can safely say that they no longer live today, and these are the kind of thing that are instilled in us during bootcamp. We as Marines don’t run from fights, we finish them….all Marines are basic Infantry Men, i’m not just saying that, I’m just an Admin guy, but I never let any of my fellow Marines down in conus from my office, or in the desert with my M16….
I am really getting sick of all this. I think we should ALL respect all divisions of our Military Forces, they are all Heroes to me! and I am a VERY PROUD WIFE of a National Guard Artillery Soldier who is now serving your country and figthing for freedom overseas!