We are developing the social individualist meta-context for the future. From the very serious to the extremely frivolous... lets see what is on the mind of the Samizdata people.
Samizdata, derived from Samizdat /n. - a system of clandestine publication of banned literature in the USSR [Russ.,= self-publishing house]
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Oooh…that’s a tough one! Polly Toynbee poses the agonising question of the day:
Why are citizens everywhere dangerously inclined to stick two fingers up at Brussels if given the chance?
Because citizens are dangerous, Polly, they’re so dangerous. Stop giving them all these chances.
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Who Are We? The Samizdata people are a bunch of sinister and heavily armed globalist illuminati who seek to infect the entire world with the values of personal liberty and several property. Amongst our many crimes is a sense of humour and the intermittent use of British spelling.
We are also a varied group made up of social individualists, classical liberals, whigs, libertarians, extropians, futurists, ‘Porcupines’, Karl Popper fetishists, recovering neo-conservatives, crazed Ayn Rand worshipers, over-caffeinated Virginia Postrel devotees, witty Frédéric Bastiat wannabes, cypherpunks, minarchists, kritarchists and wild-eyed anarcho-capitalists from Britain, North America, Australia and Europe.
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The EU has delivered 50 years of total peace to Europe? Okay, that’s a good one. The 250,000 American troops stationed in Germany for 50 years has had nothing to do with it I suppose.
I guess the Pax Americana has done its job too well, as idiots like Polly Toynbee (seemingly representing 90 percent of Euro opinion) seem not to notice what it has accomplished.
Oh God, what will happen to these fools when the American troops finally go home?
I read the article. Wow. She just doesn’t get it, does she? It’s hard for me to fathom someone could be so blind. She writes as if the EU is some sort of Nirvana that some people are too dumb to appreciate.
I bet she believes it’s too bad the ‘little people’ get to vote on such things. She may prefer to leave such matters in the hands of the ‘those who know best’.
If the EU were just the free trade zone we all were told it was back in the early 1970s, I would broadly share mad Polly’s views, but the plain fact is that it is nothing of the kind.
I find the inability of such tranzis to cope with argument truly hilarious.
In a wierd, bass-ackwards way, she does get it. She just doesn’t believe it.
Funny how all you euro-sceptics above read Polly Toynbee but failed to notice another column in the same paper on the same day by one of the UK’s most prominent far left socialists, Paul Foot, who’s firmly on your side.
John Sheehy, The Labour Party doesn’t lack for euro-sceptics. There are plenty of them, and now that Tony Blair has lost his credibility and authority, they will be speaking up more frequently.
Ok Verity, but let’s just not pretend the euro is the work of some collectivising left-wingers. Lots of them hate it because they think it’s the creation of some heartless, business-obsessed right-wingers.
I’ll never read Ms. Toynbee again after her savaging of Auberon Waugh before his body was even cool.
John Sheehy,
Surely it’s fair to say that “Europe” and the Euro is the work of the statist left and corporatist right. I am, of course, working on the presumption here that there is an aspect to the left that is not wholly statist, ie it is democratic. That being so, the question is not why the esteemed respondents above lay into Polly T – how could they resist? – but why we hear so little Eurobashing from all those Labour democrats. And the answer to that? The ones in parliament are ambitious, pusillanimous or both. The ones outside are embarrassed, perhaps, by the company. Still, their silence is consent by default, of which I imagine they are only too aware.
“I am, of course, working on the presumption here that there is an aspect to the left that is not wholly statist, ie it is democratic.”
Seeing as the vast majority of left-wingers I’ve ever known or encountered are committed to democracy, & not in favour of Stalinist-type tyrannies, i think your ‘presumption’ stands.
Polly’s last line: (see if you can spot my edit)
“Wiser heads say wait until the time is ripe – when the euro economy booms, when the CAP is dead, when Europe has a proper leader and a political sense of direction. When pigs fly.”
Guys, just as a data point… there are a significant number of people who don’t see the EU in quite the same terms as you do.
Frankly, I wouldn’t even put her in the extreme camp in comparison to some of the views expressed here.
Dave, that’s probably the most perfectly fucking obvious thing ever posted to this blog.
What exactly was the point?
Hello A_t,
Look, old bean, the modern-day alternative to the popular will isn’t Stalinism, is it? It is the entirely statist, bureaucratic EU. Maybe you didn’t notice, but St.Mags slew the Soviet dragon. Couldn’t do the same for Monsieurs Delors et Mitterand und Herr Kohl, however. More’s the pity.
Just a follow-up to some comments here…
In Sweden, who just voted NO to the EURO, both camps (Yes and No) consisted of people from a wide political spectrum. Regardless of that, the Left (socialists and communists) see the EU as the latest incarnation of evil capitalism, and the Right (liberals, libertarians (yes, they do exist here( and a blend of US republicans and democrats) supports the EU just because they see it as the latest incarnation of good capitalism – at least they see the EURO as it. When it comes to the future of the EU – with a constituion etc etc. the Left see that as another incarnation of evil capitalism, while the Right don’t seem to care much about it, as long as the term ‘free trade’ is mentioned and there’s a smell of capitalism in it. Then, of course, there are people on the Right side (pardon the pun) who rejects the EU, EURO and the whole bag of shit because we see it as another attempt to create a super state with marxist undercurrents. There is also a click on the Left who are strongly pro-EU(ro) because of the pathetic reason that they want peace. Not that peace is a pathetic reason, but that they see the EU as a guarantee for it.
I suspect the situation is different in other European countries – people of both Left and Right reject or embrace it for various reasons.
Unfortunately, for Sweden, the NO seems to indicate that this country is moving more towards the extreme Left and that many voted on that basis. Anyway, I’m getting my precious butt out of here soon…
What exactly was the point?
If it was so obvious I am shocked I needed to point it out.
You’re falling into a trap of thinking that its “obvious” that everybody thinks like you.
Start thinking like that too much and you’ll also loose all contact with reality which, for a Blog which pertains to be reshaping political thought is a silly position to get itself into.
Johan,
I got the impression from colleagues (I work for a part-Swedish company) that they felt much of the NO vote came from people who were worried more about the welfare state and the Euro reducing that than any other factors? Would that be a fair assesment?
I fail to see what is so extreme about not wanting your country to be part of a monolithic super-state with strong socialist undercurrents. Yes it is rather amusing that Bill Cash MP and Lord Stoddard of Swindon worked against the EU/EURO considering one thinks its a socialist megalith and the other thinks its a corporatist superstate. They both share the belief that the independence of their country is crucial for its survival. They believe that the EU is woefully undemocratic, anti-American and anti-individuals rights.
How is that extreme?
Polly’s opinion on the EU is not extreme either and fairly common amoung pro-Europeans.
If it was so obvious I am shocked I needed to point it out.
You didn’t need to point it out, Dave. I cannot for the life of me understand why you think you did.
If there were anything like unanimity of opinion, why would anyone bother getting together to talk about it? Let alone get so manifestly hot under the collar about it?
Frightening to think that people can be so blinkered, but something I found even more chilling was this:
Gordon Brown has cut his team assessing the euro tests from 100 civil servants to a desultory 10.
A desultory 10? Really? I find it astounding that we need even that many people to tell us to steer well clear of what is clearly one of the silliest economic experiments in history. What on earth was the government doing wasting our money on the salaries of 100 people on something that is so abundantly obvious?
Mark, for something which is “clearly one of the silliest economic experiments in history”, it’s got a number of perfectly intelligent economists quite divided, hasn’t it?
This is precisely what Dave O’ Neil was on about.
“Seeing as the vast majority of left-wingers I’ve ever known or encountered are committed to democracy, & not in favour of Stalinist-type tyrannies, i think your ‘presumption’ stands.”
Ease up on the straw man, there, A_t. Nobody is claiming that the EU is out to starve the kulaks.
The other straw man that you slip in is the notion that democracy and statism are somehow inconsistent, or even opposed. In fact, democracy is quite consistent with statism – it is quite easy to win elections by promising to stick it to the other guy, using the powers of the state. In fact, once you have arranged your tax system so that half of the population pays little tax, democracy and statism are perfectly aligned – the majority will vote to redistribute the minority’s cash to themselves every time.
Liberty quite often consists of thwarting the will of the majority.
Nice work, RCD, and I’ll not struggle pointlessly with the elegant knot into which you tied my earlier (attempted) logic.
However, I did talk about the popular will, not liberty. You, on the other hand, appear to be adducing liberty from democracy via the dubious mechanism of taxation. Liberty, surely, goes out the window when taxation walks in the front door.
Like the poor, Guessedworker, taxation will always be with us. Yet surely some of us believe we enjoy considerable liberty. I do.
What the ‘Strumpet of Fleet Street’ fails to understand is that a lot of us proles feel that the leaders of the EU movement have little integrity, and therefore they do not command any respect from us.
With at least two of them awaiting trial for fraud and corruption, it is easy to see how this lack of honesty is perceived, as them being no more than a bunch of self-serving crooks. The presence of the dowty Neil Kinnock only adds weight to our gut feelings about the whole shady enterprise, and supports our collective cynicism.
For our non Euro friends, Neil kinnock was leader of the Labour party in three general elections, which he managed to lose ‘big time’. He then went to an unelected post at the EU, where he and his wife enjoy the high life style of the Euro elite, all without ever winning an election.
She (TSoFS), complains of the ‘two fingered salute’. You have all heard the joke about counting your fingers after shaking hands with a politician, well perhaps we have metaphorically been shaking hands with too many of her New Labour buddies, and that is all we have left!.
If there were anything like unanimity of opinion, why would anyone bother getting together to talk about it? Let alone get so manifestly hot under the collar about it?
And yet you seem happy to post things that you are terribly pleased to agree about, e.g. Toynbe what a mad old bint, and then get really het up when people say, “hang on a moment…”
I find it quite strange that’s all.
A_t also makes a good point about this. The subject is NOT obvious, it is DIVIDING people across all types of political opinion and making some very very very odd bedfellows.
Samizdata is the group that claim to be effecting some change in politics. You don’t manage that by selling to yourselves.
Dave O’Neill,
“Samizdata is the group that claim to be effecting some change in politics. You don’t manage that by selling to yourselves.”
We aspire to effect change. Whether we actually effect any change is a different matter. The whole point of this blog is to make these ideas available to everyone.
Point is, George, some other bugger is enjoying his liberty at my expense which, since this is accomplished by force of law and under threat of my imprisonment, must be a restriction on my liberty.
But more to the point of this thread, are you saying that if the EU pursues and obtains its taxation remit your liberty will be untouched? I think not. You’ll blitz every political blog between here and doomsday making your outrage clear to all. So will I, especially since the other bugger will probably be in France, Spain or, by then, Romania.
And, yep, I know you qualified matters by referring to your “considerable liberty”. I would have thought that the tax-cost of our brave government’s social programme is pretty considerable. What’s it costing you?
Isn’t there some saying about – “In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king!”.
I think that this blog is just trying to cure a little blindness….. never an easy job!
As that other old saying goes – “There are none so blind as those that will not see!”.
🙂
The whole point of this blog is to make these ideas available to everyone.
Which is a noble ideal in my opinion David.
But perhaps people should think more about the way the ideas are presented if you wish to meet those aspirations?
I fear that reading this Blog sometimes, often agreeing broadly with much that is said, I see stuff which suggests I need to go and buy myself a tinfoil hat.
As an outsider, I must admit it is interesting to watch a group of people so obsessed with taking a run at the US for economic primacy, among other things, so consistently shoot their toes off one by one as they do so.
The Arabs were going to run the world and buy the West back in the ’70’s, or so went the “popular wisdom”. Then it was the Japanese, with their more focused economic policies and superior management techniques, who were going to “buy America” in the ’80’s.
God, all the bs seminars we suffered through to meet the “Japanese challenge”, and learn all their secrets to economic perfection. Then their bubble burst and their day in the sun was over. Lacking the political courage to do what needs to be done, “Japan Inc” has been spinning its wheels for over a decade.
So now it’s the EU on the Atlantic front and China on the Pacific front. Another two front war, so to speak. But the corruption of China’s aging and overwhelmed ruling party is more likely to kill the Hong Kong goose than lay any golden eggs, even with an impressive growth rate.
And the EU. Just keep writing more rules and regs. That’s the way to progress and prosperity. And when all your toes are all gone, tie your shoelaces together.
My kids’, and their kids’, futures are assured, and very rosy. Since I am a man of leisure, I think i will take a nap.
I find it quite strange that’s all.
What, that like-minded people congregate to discuss issues among themselves? Nothing strange about that. And no reason to assume those people believe themselves to be in the majority. Stranger are those who seek out the company of people with whom they don’t fundamentally agree, but that’s not without its uses.
I doubt anyone stumbles into an online political discussion and has his viewpoint transformed 180 degrees by the sheer persuasiveness of the membership. People don’t work like that.
The best method for an online site to effect real change is to energize its own membership and make it difficult for information to be buried by the opposition. Of course, this isn’t an unalloyed good thing, as all positions and special interests become increasingly radicalized and bad information is as easy to spread as good.
I suspect, in the end, the direct impact of any site will come down to traffic, and traffic is a function of…who got there first, how professional the site looks and sounds, and the occasional lucky scoop. Not entirely fair, but it’s a not entirely fair universe.
Why are citizens everywhere dangerously inclined to stick two fingers up at Brussels if given the chance?
Those of us in the US only use one finger, but I’ll be happy to use both hands if it will help.
Mike, I was thinking the same thing!
And I figured, seeing 34 comments, that my thinking the same thing was irrelevant. So glad it wasn’t mentioned until after all the serious discussion.
The pressure from the Arabs to increase efficiency, and the pressure from the Japanese to improve quality and responsiveness proved to effect the U.S. economy exactly as “that which does not kill you” ought to. It made it stronger. Best of all, the Japanese did buy up the U.S. (Radio City Music Hall, for one) providing useful capital in the process, and then sold it back at a loss once they found they couldn’t run it profitably.
Anyone remember the great Japanese Fifth Generation Supercomputer project?
Andrew Ian Dodge said about the EU : ” …a monolithic super-state with strong socialist undercurrents.”
“strong socialist undercurrents.” – Granted.
But ” a monolithic super state” ?? They would surely like to be that, but don’t confuse desires or intentions with the reality.
Q: Why are citizens everywhere dangerously inclined to stick two fingers up at Brussels if given the chance?
A: Because they allowed Brussels to confiscate their guns!
“Constitutions are dull – but real issues are not. So forget general principles, and campaign to send decision-making where it belongs pragmatically, according to whoever does it best.”
From the Western side of the Atlantic, it’s comments like this, from a self-christened pro-European, which reinforce my doubts about the project. If your Constitution is “dull,” and seems removed from “real issues”, then how will the people restrain government? Will they, and future generations, realise that they have that responsibility? If you can’t agree on a set of general principles, how can you erect any lasting governmental structure?
Federalism isn’t easy. What common sentiment and cause unite the Europeans, and inspire them to accept the neccessary sacrifices? “We need to compete more effectively on the world stage” strikes me as a little…dry.
Of course, this isn’t an unalloyed good thing, as all positions and special interests become increasingly radicalized and bad information is as easy to spread as good.
Yes. I’d say that is something that is often missed.
Besides, quite often a Devil’s Advocate is required.
Sean O’Callaghan writes, “..they allowed Brussels to confiscate their guns!” – ?
I don’t understand this, but I suspect Sean is in the US, where a lot of people have a sort of vague idea that no-one outside the good ol’ USA has guns any more. At one extreme, there are individuals who go in for vainglorious chest-beating about how these lily-livered Europeans have just rolled over and handed in their guns… I wonder how these people categorise the citizens of Washington DC, say, where handguns are very hard to own legally – or NYC, where it’s been even more difficult (even than in pre-1997 UK I believe) to own a handgun legally since the Sullivan Act of 1911… Are they a bunch of cissies for just rolling over, etc..? I’ve spoken with Americans who (a) thought we had no guns whatsoever (a friend of mine currently has 22 weapons on his Certificate) and (b) believed that when the 1997 handgun ban was enacted we should have disregarded it and kept them – ignoring the fact that our handguns had been subject to registration since 1920, so the authorities knew where they all were (the legal ones) and that illegal possession of a handgun now carries a mandatory 5-year sentence.
The fact is that Brussels, while aiming at “harmonisation” of firearms ownership regulation as with everything else, faces enormous difficulties given the very considerable differences in gun-control practices of member states of the EU. Brussels hasn’t “confiscated our guns,” Sean; and to those others who over-egg the Land Of The Free stuff, I’d suggest they think about the fascistic state apparatus of the BATF and Internal Revenue, whose activities often seem far worse than anything yet enacted on behalf of the Brussels regime.
Very interesting