Not much commentary is needed really about his protest in London, but judging from the placards, more people seemed interested in Palestine than Iraq.
A rolling river of political incontinence
I guess they want to give Saddam time to develop nuclear weapons, thereby giving themselves someone else to protest against
… but Saddam Hussain not wanted for murder by Socialists Workers apparently
At least this one is amusing
I wonder if they could find Iraq on a map?
Hell, I wonder if they could find Britain on a map
Actress & pro-totalitarian activist Vanessa Redgrave
One protester made the serious tactical blunder of assuming David Carr was in agreement with the marcher’s objectives. He explains the error of her ways.
I have never seen so many Arabs in London
This chap wants the world to look like that paragon of human rights and civic virtues, the Palestinian Authority
Socialist Dictators of the World Unite! And another guy was waving a Soviet flag (the picture of that did not come out unfortunately)
No, war will cease when men no longer stand up to fight against tyranny
Your intrepid blogger can feel his brains being sucked out…
All the usual people really. Yawn.
Please stop the planet. I’d like to get off. I find the rest of the passengers to be impossible to live with.
Looks like you had fun…
The fascist state thing reminds me of some blogger’s juxtaposition of a photo of an anti-Israel boycott outside M&S in Manchester with one of two uniformed men with the poster “Don’t buy from Jews.” That was taken in Germany in 1937.
These people are sick. Their stupidity and hatred beggar belief.
Hm. Most of the posters in the wide shot look professionally printed, not hand-painted.
Hm.
Yeah, funny thing is the BBC can’t seem to find any of the “normaL”suspects they just seem to find everyday people who “hate” war. And those with children who are soldiers.
I am sure that Perry & David set up these shots just to discredit the marchers. That has to be the only possible answer right?
The first casualty of war is truth. These protesters are presenting clear evidence of the death of truth in their lives.
David and Perry ,
Thank you! Thank you so much for going to the rally and sharing the photos. I am shaking my head in disgust and thank my lucky stars I did not venture into town. I for one would have not fared well, watching these naive, fascist idiots!
By the way, I love your blogging. Been in the UK for 18 months and ever since I found your sight I turn to it for sane sagacious empathy. Keep it up
Jen
My vote for best bit on the News tonight: Snow brought an Iraqi woman face to face with Tony Benn who then had to defend his anti-war stand against her. He said hundreds of thousands would die in a war: she replied, hundreds of thousands are dying *anyway*. He blamed the US for arming them in the first place (she obviously didn’t know it was the Axis of Weasels who actually armed him) and she said she didn’t care. Her people cannot get rid of him, those who try die. She wants liberation.
A gem in the cesspit as it were…
Too bad we can’t find some island somewhere, and stick all those people on it together with Saddam and all the dictators they defend. Let the rest of the sane world get on with being sane.
Too bad we can’t find some island somewhere, and stick all those people on it together with Saddam and all the dictators they defend. Let the rest of the sane world get on with being sane.
Dale: I would give almost anything to see a video clip of Benn trying to tell an Iraqi that her country shouldn’t be liberated. Is it on the web anywhere?
The “enlightened” as usual demonstrate only their stony heartlessness, their gleeful mendacity, their inhumanity, their vicarious love of murder….
We’re having a similar mysterious trend on CNN here in the U.S.
They just can’t seem to find any Vietnam-type hippies. They’re all working stiffs and marine moms and all that kind of stuff, and all you have to do is look at the Yahoo news pictures to realize that’s just not so.
The award for the most clueless person on Earth has to go to that woman from the CND. CND = Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. Um, jeez, that is EXACTLY what Bush and Blair are trying to accomplish, nuclearly disarming Iraq.
I know, I know, CND is only interested in nuclearly disarming the US and UK. They’re perfectly OK with other countries having nuclear weapons — as long as those other countries are enemies of the US and UK.
What, no mimes?
Damn, you guys will do anything to trivialize 500,000 to 1 million of your own countrymen and women.
Obviously they are all idiots. Obviously they were ALL bought and paid for by the big organizing groups. I mean, what other explantion could there be.
Oh and the big bad clue is that most are printed not hand-written. Hello, it’s 2003.
When you do your blogger coverage of the pro-troop rallies in America (of which I equally and heartily approve) don’t forget to mention that they are all “hand-made.”
I’m sorry, but it does my heart good to see so many people in THE WORLD stand up for something they believe in. I await the masses that march FOR WAR with equal relish. I was beginning to fear that effort to stand up and be counted had dissappeared.
The marches represent the will of millions of voters – is that why you’re trivializing their efforts? Or trying to.
Thanks Perry for the pictures, less so for the captions.
All the usual people commenting here. Yawn.
“All the usual people”? Funny how we don’t see 750,000 people at every march, then.
Sorry, Perry, you should have stayed at home and played video games with Kevin. Or masturbated furiously in private, rather than wanking all over your captions.
this is what Instapundit/Glenn Reynolds actually wrote on his site:
>>Sadly, the London protests, which Perry DeHavilland covered and photographed, were a more-representative collection of nastiness and communist-sympathizing. As Perry writes: “All the usual people really. Yawn.”
Therefore, I don’t think he wrote the comment above this one.
Make something up if you want to post anon. Don’t misrepresent another’s view. But that’s just a journalist’s/my POV.
And hell, maybe Mr. Reynolds has a split personality and I’m wrong. But I doubt it.
dimn is upset that the marchers get no respect:
I don’t think Perry trivialized anyone. The marchers are trivial by definition — wow, out of a nation of millions, a few hundred thousand got together to protest against a war in Iraq. (Unless they were there to protest against the “illegal occupation of Palestine.” Or against nuclear weapons. Or against “racism.” Or against meat. Or for communism. Or for socialism. Or for meat socialism, but not communism.)
It’s not so much “trivializing” them as deflating the sense of self-importance these marchers attach to themselves. So they don’t like a U.S. policy, and they got together and blocked traffic and annoyed other people. Wow. I’m sure that is a very valid reason to change policy, and Bush & Co. will do it right away.
Yes, and everyone has home printers capable of making giant signs on posterboard, in bulk.
I’m pretty indifferent — any idiot can march, and plenty of idiots do. Yes, I’m happy that people are at least somewhat aware of what’s going on, and that they can make their voices heard. I’ll be happier still when they can do this in Baghdad.
They aren’t all voters: plenty of them seem to be, uhh, “refugees” from “less developed nations.” And the voters’ “will” counts only when they submit their ballots. At other times, they are just noise.
I’d understand if they were actually getting some kind of coherent message out that hadn’t been heard before. But the truth is, everyone’s heard this stuff every day for months now, so this is just a gathering to show that lots of people are opposed to the war. Like we didn’t know that already.
e.nough I respect you, but yuo prove my point here.
Just like a letter to Congress is viewed as the opinion of 500, one marcher represents more than one marcher.
A couple of 100,000 is also vastly undercutting the estimates so far – and that’s just for London.
These are the biggest demonstrations in decades for anything. That represents more than the usual. It’s an unassailable fact.
And by the signs I meant- yes, anyone can get down to the nearest copy shop and print something up. Much different than it was even 10-15 years ago.
They annoyed people and blocked traffic……??????????. I’m sorry, but this is a shitload of people. And if the police/ government had agreed to cooperate much earlier it might have been even smoother than it apparently was.
“I await the masses that march FOR WAR with equal relish.”
Do you stand by that florid statement?
I love this sentiment that there has to be a pro-war rally. Surely we heard from 750k people against the war and those dont feel strongly that way are the rest of the population.
I still do not understand how you can liberate a country by doing NOTHING! What is Saddam going to find “Allah” and suddenly stop killing people?
Mark Steyn’s piece in the DT today says it all really. I have the link and some thoughts here.
All those on the march are not pro-peace (it does not exist in Iraq now) or anti-war (everyone besides Al Queda is anti-war in general) they are pro-appeasing a merciless genocidal dictator PERIOD.
You makes yer choices.
PS: Comparing Israel to the genocidal Nazis is about as obscene as it gets. It truly sums up the true motives of most of those at the rally.
Of course these people were a heterogenous bunch. I mean, it’s all connected, you know – Iraq, Palestine, whale extinction, hole in the ozone layer, the Nasca Lines, Bilderberg Group, the New World Order, alien abduction, Ruby Ridge, crop circles – all that esoteric stuff. I read it in the National Enquirer AND on David Icke’s website – so it must be true.
Did you spot the group of skeletons in neon wigs and the Bush/Blair masked men?
but.. no mimes. I saw one from Costa Rica though
Great selection of pictures. I’ve seen the pictures from New York and San Francisco rallies and I’m afraid these idiots long ago stopped being useful to anybody. And just like one of the previous posters said, this is not trivializing the protesters — they are trivial enough.
It just doesn’t occur to them that they are de facto supporting a brutal despot. As long as they can stick it to those upstart Americans and call Bush a mad cowboy, it makes them happy. And then again there are those of them who go around with anti-Israeli buttons and signs. They are in a league by themselves. Finally there is dear Ms. Redgrave, so talented, so full of herself while she looks so distinguished! Twenty years ago, a bunch of us 20-something Harvard students stood on the steps of the Boston Symphony Hall to protest her appearance as a narrator with the Boston Symphony orchestra in a piece I cannot recall. She was a defender of the peace-loving Palestinians then and she is just as devoted to their cause now.
One problem to report though — the flag you identify as Soviet, isn’t (see 10th frame from the top). It is either Cuban or Puerto Rican but definitely not a Soviet nor is it a flag of any of the 15 former Soviet Sociallist Repuiblics; not even of one of the previously “fraternal” Warsaw Pact countries.
i will have to quit renting/watching movies to
boycott actors.
i will have to quit buying cars and goods from
germany and france, et al.
i will have to drink more itialian wine.
i will have to make more love to my marine husband
if he makes it back.
i will have to thank these idiots for simplifying
my life, making me more politically aware, and
giving me justificaton for a good buzz.
Errr…..did David get the cute redhead into bed ??
You are deeply ignorant. How many people will show up to your pro-war rally? The war you are so keen on is simply the rich scapegoating the poor.
The trumped-up reasons for war are not fooling the majority of the British people, only bloodthirsty imbeciles like yourselves. The same people who lied about the last gulf war are lying again. Haven’t you noticed that the US only picks fights with countries that are too poor to defend themselves;typical of bullies & cowards.
I hope you’re not referring to Vanessa Redgrave, here!
Vanessa ??….have you taken leave of your senses???…..good grief NO !!
MM I believe many do realize that they are marching for a brutal dictatorship. That is the truly frightning thing. Middle class moderate socialism is morphing into either benign neglect or out right advocacy of tryanny. What more could one expect out of most Europeans who are the progeny of vassals and serfs? As long as the lord allows me mine(socialism, et al), don’t you dare do anything to upset the status quo, even at the expense of protecting yourselves.
I do believe, however, that many are there just to catch a buzz and have a good time at one bigass block party. I don’t believe they give a rat’s ass about ideology. Reminds me of that movie “Dogma”. Silent Jay and Bob are hanging out at an abortion clinic in Illinois. When the social worker asks them what the are doing there, this after they save her life. Bob says, and I am paraphrasing here, “We were looking to pick up some chicks and fat boy here suggests an abortion clinic. Hey, it’s an abortion clinic what better place to pick up loose chicks, right?” And I thinking hey, it’s a pro-Saddam rally, full of hippies and flower children, what better place to catch a good buzz and pick up loose women.
sabreman24,
Sadly, no. Perhaps if I had had a bit more time but, alas, the procession rolled on.
Actually said redhead (not Vanessa!) did rather bear out some of the points made above: her beef was over government plans for asylum seekers.
Can anyone see the similarities between one of these pictures
AND THIS ONE?
Can anyone see the similarities between one of these pictures
AND THIS ONE?
“How many people will show up to your pro-war rally?”
Very few, I would think. The idea that ‘walking up and down holding a sign’ is a meaningful political act is a delusion held by a relatively small number of people. I like to think of them as People Jonesing for the Sixties.
Last week, someone hung a home-made banner off a highway overpass near me: Think Peace. Yeah. Yeah, that’s about right. Think happy fluffy bunny thoughts and good things will happen.
Man , I wish I was at one of the Rallys. The scintillating conversations , the witty retorts and introducing people to my steel toed docs.
Man , I wish I was at one of the Rallys. The scintillating conversations , the witty retorts
From you? I’d rather not.
Btw, Perry should launch a march for “Plump young fogeys for a war they’re too unfit to fight.” All that port must do horrors to his gouty extremities.
MM: Yes I know that is not a Soviet flag… I said another guy had a Soviet flag (the picture of him did not come out).
algernon smithwick: and how many wars have you seen up close rather than through the TV screen? I certainly have seen one first hand (1992-1995 Croatia/Bosnia). You can witter on all you like but if you actually have a point to make, try and make it rather than waste pixels… but stick to what you know about as you know nothing about me.
I went to a pro-troop rally about we got over 200 (AP: “hundreds”) out on a freezing day (ie in the teens f) in a state with less 1.3 million people.
I understood there are over 3000 Irais living in Britain. I did not see any of them speaking or carrying signs supporting Saddam. And you really can’t have a candid conversation with the regular joe in Baghad can you? One of the best indications of the backbone of the movement came in Hawaii. 500 people marched on the U.S. Navy Pacific Fleet headquarters in Honolulu. The organizers said they didn’t expect the more than 1000 that showed up in a park 2 weeks ago, as this march was more confrontational, what with Navy guards and German Shepards. I guess if there wasn’t a park to play in, many of the protesters took their frisbees and stayed home.
Perry — Mea culpa! It was late and I clearly misread the caption. That should teach me to go to sleep on time.
david c — as far as a how many of us are going to show up for a “pro-war” rally: probably not many because, as P. J. O’Rourke noted, we have jobs… This bit about rich scapegoating the poor and picking on nations too poor to defend themselves is pure bunk! It does not really merit a serious reply but as you throw in the broad “you all are so ignorant” charge, I feel compelled to say this much. Iraq and its neighbors are not too poor to provide for their people; they simply choose not to do it. Instead and for a long time, their choice was to channel billions of dollars into procuring weapons and military technologies, building military installations and (recently) direct subcidies to families of suicide bombers (a newly found growth market, it seems, and a truly unique product of the religion of peace). And all along the unelected despots who rule most of the 22 Arab countries maintain a thriving business in the luxury goods imports market buying all thethings their counties are unable to produce — from cars to flat screen TVs and other electronics, to pacemakers to medicines — for themselves. The people have no rights and are treated like cattle.
The poverty of the Arab Middle East is completely self-inflicted; it is a function of a backward, almost mediaeval political culture (for lack of better term) built entirely on oppression and on corruption and graft of such magnitude which make the fabled Russian post-communist privatizers look like mere babes in arms, amateurs! To think that these countries, sitting comfortably atop most of the world’s oil reserves and awash with cash, have some of the lowest per capita standard of living, experience no economic growth! All that while their apologists of every stripe whine about American oppression and oil lust. But really! This is truly laughable.
And please let’s not bring in the UN sanctions against Iraq which, as Saddammites would have you know, are responsible for the poverty and rise of infant mortality and morbidity. Those self-same sanctions which the French and the Russians would have repealed long ago because standing on principles is too darn expensive (and they have those contracts to develop oil reserves ready to implement). But if you do decide to talk about them, let’s remember why the sanctions were imposed and also let’s bear in mind that for humanitarian reasons, UNSC gave Saddam plenty of opportunities to trade oil for food and medicines. These opportunities he has been known to circumvent by selling more than his share and buying things other than the food and medicines; he’s done it in spite of UN restrictions with the help of his less oil-reach neighbors and less principled trading partners. If we follow the money trail, we’ll see that that the poverty of Iraqis is resultant from Saddam rule and his rule only. Maybe when he’s finally out we’d find the receipts for things he chose to spend the “oil-for-food” proceeds.
It stands to reason that removing such a brute from his seat of power and preventing him from inflicting further harm on his subjects would be an honorable thing to do. At least it seems so to me, living as I am on the western shores of the Atlantic. But as any euro-appeaser will tell you if you’re ready to hear, all us on this side are ignorant half-crazed cowboys headed by religious right and the oil interests (and then, in whispers, they will add the thing or two about the “Zionist Lobby”). Actually, our home-grown appeasers eagerly repeat the same lines if only to show their penchance for sophisticated thinking and to prove that, in the words of the character from the movie “Born Yesterday”, they have as much cooth as anybody…
So, have it your way, march boldly for “peace in our times” – whether it is to support Saddam, or to denounce Israel as the new nazis, or just to meet cute chicks and “catch a buzz and have a good time at one bigass block party”. The history alone will bear out the truth.
We had our Pro War Rally here in the USA on 11/5 millions showed up and voted yes – our millions trumps your little bitty 1000’s
“We had our Pro War Rally here in the USA on 11/5 millions showed up and voted yes – our millions trumps your little bitty 1000’s”
I love it!
I was at a pro-Saddam rally run by the Communist group ANSWER that tried to fool rather ignorant teenagers it was a ‘peace rally’ and fooled enough naifs to gather a big crowd … I had a “LIBERATE IRAQ” sign. It sure confused many of the pro-Saddam “peace” protesters who want to let Saddam build WMDs and use such cutting arguments as “well if we take him out , who is next?” . ER, how about any other brutal dictator who supports terrrorists, kills his own people, and pursues weapons of mass destruction.
It seemed the march I was at was mostly about leftist venting usual hatred for anything non-leftwing than giving a hoot about Iraq. ie “Bush is a terrorist” – this at an American rally. Talk about giving aid and comfort to enemies. The main fear seems to be that Iraq will leave America more – er – powerful.
As to the numbskull saying America only picks on weaker countries, he seems to forget that without Team USA defending freedom for the last century, fighting Hitler’s Germany, Japan’s militarism, and staring down Commnist dictatorships, Europe would be a Fascist/Socialist one-Europe State, much as Orwell predicted … whereas today it clear with the current EU … oops, nevermind.
thanks for the pix and color commentary. Six weeks from now there’ll be VI-Day…Victory in Iraq. And then brace yourself for more real-life horror stories than you’ve heard since Hitler.
thanks for the pix and color commentary. Six weeks from now there’ll be VI-Day…Victory in Iraq. And then brace yourself for more real-life horror stories than you’ve heard since Hitler.
thanks for the pix and color commentary. Six weeks from now there’ll be VI-Day…Victory in Iraq. And then brace yourself for more real-life horror stories than you’ve heard since Hitler.
I’m not sure how I feel about the march.
I didn’t go on it, because I have mixed feelings about military action; and I certainly don’t want to be associated with a ragtag bunch of protesters who have vastly differing views, opinions and reasons for protesting.
However, I don’t think it’s fair in any way shape or form to trivialise the numbers of people who turned out this weekend – it’s possibly the largest portest we’ve ever seen in the UK. This can hardly be considered as a conglomeration of ‘the usual suspects’.
Would you ignore the votes of 1 million people, simply because you class they count as a numerical minority? Of course not. And I don’t see how you can ignore a vast number of people protesting about ANYTHING (whether it’s the Countryside Alliance, poll tax opponents or anti-war protesters).
If you are for freedom existing within a democracy, then assaulting people’s right to express their opinions is a contradiction; do you claim every person on this march is not entitled to believe in what they say?
Any war in Iraq is bound to be a complex issue; glib put-downs and wilful disdain for people’s right to protest seems hardly to chime with the heart of your libertarian beliefs.
Bobbie: If you are for freedom existing within a democracy, then assaulting people’s right to express their opinions is a contradiction; do you claim every person on this march is not entitled to believe in what they say?
I have at no time questioned anyone’s right to march and protest about whatever idiotic thing they wish. They can do and say what they like. Likewise, are you saying I do not have the right to say I think these people are just the ‘useful idiots’ of a brutal mass murderer in Baghdad?
Anyway, I do not give a damn about democracy, I only care about liberty… democracy and liberty are only passing acquaintances.
Of course you’ve got as much right to express your opinion as anybody else – and in a society where people’s right to free expression exists, it shouldn’t be otherwise. (democracy was perhaps the wrong phrase to use, but chosen on the hoof, so to speak).
But I would suggest that your position does come across as rather less interested in liberty than point-scoring from time to time.
Don’t get me wrong: I’m more pro than anti on this war, for *some* of the reasons you’ve discussed previously, but I don’t think there’s anything to be gained from taking pot shots at the ‘usual suspects’.
And yes, I can see why it’s tempting to do so: I think one of the real problems of the march was that it was a display of public sentiment (however misguided that sentiment is, it is in the most part genuine) which was hijacked or misappropriated by various protest groups. Which, in turn, is exactly why those ‘genuine’ marchers deserve to be heard outside of the usual baiting that goes on between foot stomping activists.
Perry,
I will take your comment one step further, though I may shock some of those that reflexively embrace democracy as virtuous.
Democracy is not merely a passing acquaintence with liberty. Democracy is the enemy of liberty.
Democracy will always, without fail, sacrifice the liberty of the individual to satisfy the desires of the majority. Is it only rule of law that can contain the greed of democracy. That is why the American founding fathers created a republic (rule of law) rather than a democracy (rule of the majority).
I have had many that don’t believe me when I tell them that the American founding fathers considered democracy to be evil. As proof, I submit the following quote from Benjamin Franklin:
Like any sane person, I do not like war. However, as long as the world if full of wolves like Saddam Hussien and Osama bin Ladin, I’ll be a well-armed lamb.
Bobbie,
As an outside observer (I just happened across this blog for the first time today) I’ll try to make a couple of observations on the discussion between you and Perry. I can identify with at least part of what both of you are saying.
First of all, I very much dislike the practice of labeling a person or group as a pretext for dismissing their arguments. I think that may be the reaction you have to the phrase, “the usual suspects.” If that was Perry’s motivation for using that phrase, then I don’t like it either.
However, I don’t think that Perry’s motivation for using this term was purely of the “label and dismiss” variety. (Not knowing Perry at all, I’m taking a risk trying to guess Perry’s heart in this matter, but I think that my conclusion is as justified as the other.)
A political commentator where I live (Denver, Colorado) says that he likes to know where a person sits before he hears where they stand. By this he means that it is useful to know a person’s worldview to interpret their position on an issue. For example, the statement, “I try to improve the lives of workers” has a totally different meaning when spoken by a union steward versus the owner of a third world sweat shop.
So when a group of people get together to protest, it is not only completely valid, but also necessary to analyze where they sit as part of examining the meaning of their protest. I believe Perry’s comment came from this motivation.
I interpreted Perry’s comment to mean, “this protest is not composed of mainstream voters – it is composed of the same groups of socialists, communists and pacifists that protest every attempt by Western countries to defend their liberty.” In this case, you can throw in the Israel-haters as allies of convenience.
Ok – I’m done trying to interpret yours and Perry’s points of view. I’ll finish by adding some of my own. This is not directed at anyone in particular. It is a reaction to several of the contrary comments I read here, and similar sentiments expressed elsewhere.
There seems to be great confusion around the “right to speak,” “right to protest,” “right to hold your own opinion,” “right to be heard,” etc., etc. Nearly everyone agrees that people have the right to their own opinion, and to state it publicly. (The notable exceptions are places like Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Palestine, China, North Korea, and U.S. college campuses.) However, the right to speak does not equate to a right to have your opinion valued or respected. An opinion is just an idea or belief held by an individual. Some ideas are thoughtful and wise and deserve consideration. Some ideas are ignorant and foolish and deserve scorn. Some ideas are downright evil and must be fought.
It is important to discern the worth of an idea because ideas are like fire. When used with care for noble purposes, they are invaluable. When abused or put to ill purposes, they cause great harm.
The anti-war ideas represented by these protesters fall into the latter category. It really doesn’t matter how sincere they are – this only makes them sincerely wrong. Failing to put down evil men like Saddam Hussein will cause great harm, and that makes the ideas of these protestors extremely dangerous.
The protesters undeniably have a right to their opinion, but I cannot, and will not, respect their point of view.
That is the flag of Cuba. The flag of Puerto Rico is the same pattern with the colors inverted [red stripes, blue field]. The flag of Texas…..
If anyone’s still reading…
Thanks to Perry and Mark for your responses.
Those were just points I picked up from my brief reading of the page and the comments to it… and I understand that obviously your views on the relationship between liberty of the individual and ‘democratic’ rule mean that it’s easier for you to dismiss the marchers, since the voice of the majority is not only not always right; it’s your enemy.
I would argue, though, at least from a devil’s advocate standpoint that many of those people who went marching were not (after all, if they were simply the usual ragtag bunch of people who turn up to every protest, why was this protest so much bigger). Had they succumbed
And while I also realise that hey, it doesn’t matter if you don’t listen to their concerns because they’re wrong. That seems a little like throwing out the baby with the bathwater and rejecting an opinion (or a variety of different opinions) out of hand.
I think plenty of people on the march – plenty of those whose voices were not represented by in the media – agree with the sentiment that Saddam should be removed from power. They just do not think that war – or perhaps, more accurately THIS war, for THESE reasons, in THIS way – is the best way to do it.
Personally I didn’t go on the march because I don’t want to be represented by these people. And I think that war may be the answer which can help to ensure the best possible solution; but I certainly don’t see any reason to put my full backing behind the method or motives that the US or UK have put forward.
The problem, I suppose, is that this is a very complex situation with a series of equally complex positions; and yet we all seem happy to draw the lines in an almost laughably polarised way – between the hawks and the doves.
Dan Dickinson: That is the flag of Cuba.
Quite so… which is why I said ‘Socialist Dictators of the World Unite’!
Bobbie: I think plenty of people on the march – plenty of those whose voices were not represented by in the media – agree with the sentiment that Saddam should be removed from power.
I do not doubt you are correct for one moment on this point. Although some actually do support Saddam Hussain, many, probably even most, of the marchers do not regard him as ‘the good guy’ (though I suspect the majority have not in fact thought the whole question through to the point that they have coherent opinions beyond being nebulously ‘anti-war’).
Yet the reality is that if they get their way and there is no war, Saddam Hussain will remain in power for longer and in that time, more Iraqi people will fall victim to the Ba’athist regime. I just want to keep pointing out that the continuation of repression in Iraq is the REALITY of what they are marching for regardless of any professed dislike for Saddam Hussain… without action to remove him it is all just meaningless words.
Why don’t you talk about the biggest bullshitter and inept leader of all time: George Dubya Bush?
Would we even be on the precipe of disaster that we now face if not for this idiot? The answer is obvious. At least admit this to yourself as you criticize the anti-war movement, which, far from perfect, is at least taking a stand against the insane nutcases currently in power in Washington.
eh?: And what on earth does that have to do with war in Iraq?
Feel free to protest all you like about George Bush, of whom I am no fan, but then please just call it ‘an Anti-George Bush Protest’ rather than an ‘anti-war-to-overthrow-Saddam-Hussain-protest’.
My argument is with the people who are, by their actions in this protest, supporting the continued rule of a mass murderous Ba’athist Socialist regime in Baghdad… the existance of which predates the political power of George W. Bush by a great many years.
These protests are anti Bush and anti America.
The tree hugging liberals are using this issue to try and justify there hate for America and the republican majority that leads this country.
This war will happen with or without the tree huggers………………………………………….
Thank God for the common sence of our president.
Bobbie,
I’ll reply to your points one-by-one…
>> … and I understand that obviously your views on the
>> relationship between liberty of the individual and
>> ‘democratic’ rule mean that it’s easier for you to
>> dismiss the marchers, since the voice of the majority
>> is not only not always right; it’s your enemy.
I never said that the voice of the majority is my enemy. I said that RULE by majority is my enemy. There is a vast difference between the two. I fear of the opinion of the majority only to the extent that the majority can harm me.
>> I would argue, though, at least from a devil’s
>> advocate standpoint that many of those people who
>> went marching were not (after all, if they were simply
>> the usual ragtag bunch of people who turn up to every
>> protest, why was this protest so much bigger).
I have no way of knowing if this is true, but what does it say about the marchers or their views? Not much. I do not know whether they agree with the socialists, or the Israel haters, or the America haters, but by joining their ranks they are supporting them, like it or not.
>> And while I also realise that hey, it doesn’t matter if
>> you don’t listen to their concerns because they’re wrong.
>> That seems a little like throwing out the baby with the
>> bathwater and rejecting an opinion (or a variety of
>> different opinions) out of hand.
You are making an unwarranted assumption – that I am rejecting an opinion out of hand. I have looked very closely at the opinions of socialists, Israel haters and America haters. I don’t think that I need to reexamine them beyond reading their signs to know that they are still replaying the same old tired arguments.
>> I think plenty of people on the march – plenty of those
>> whose voices were not represented by in the media –
>> agree with the sentiment that Saddam should be removed
>> from power. They just do not think that war – or perhaps,
>> more accurately THIS war, for THESE reasons, in THIS
>> way – is the best way to do it.
Again, I’ve heard many with that opinion. In fact, I see those opinions voiced by the media far more than those supporting the war – what media do you consume?
>> I didn’t go on the march because I don’t want to be
>> represented by these people.
Thanks. I think you just made one of my points.
>> And I think that war may be the answer which can
>> help to ensure the best possible solution;
May be – so what alternatives do you have to suggest? (besides the ones that have failed for the last 12 years.)
>> but I certainly don’t see any reason to put my full
>> backing behind the method or motives
>> that the US or UK have put forward.
What about the cries of the oppressed peoples in Iraq? What about the innocent civilians – men, women and children – who were gassed by Saddam Hussein. Are they not reason enough?
>> The problem, I suppose, is that this is a very
>> complex situaton with a series of equally complex
>> positions; and yet we all seem happy to draw the
>> lines in an almost laughably polarised way –
>> between the hawks and the doves.
There is no disagreement that Saddam is an evil tyrant. There is no disagreement that Saddam is willing to commit atrocities on his own people. There is no disagreement that Saddam has no respect for the borders of his neighbors. There is no disagreement that Saddam would destroy Israel if he could. There is no disagreement that Saddam has weapons of mass destruction, and missiles capable of hitting many neighboring nations. There is no disagreement that Saddam has attempted to obtain nuclear weapons and will continue to attempt to do so. There is no disagreement that Saddam would sell WMD to terrorists for use against Israel or other western nations. There is no disagreement that Saddam has regularly defied the will of the UN and refuses to disarm. (such as it is.)
So what is the complex part?
One of the commentators above jibed that we “pro-war” fogeys would be useless in a fight, etc. Well said to Perry for putting that idiot in his place.
The “chicken-hawk” jibe is a yawn. Being a civilian in favour of war against Saddam does not make one a coward, any more than being a former military officer who now takes a peacenik stance makes one a fount of wisdom on military affairs.
Interesting, isn’t it, how some of the comments above by the anti-war crowd consisted of little more han personal abuse. Okay, this blog has taken a swipe at the folk on the march, but considering the tranparent idiocy of the views displayed in the pictures, they got off lightly.
These anti-Blair, anti-Bush mobs are the same one’s which either support a global Islamic state, or, overdosed on drugs in the 1960’s and are working on three, maybe four, brain cells.
These anti-Blair, anti-Bush mobs are the same one’s which either support a global Islamic state, or, overdosed on drugs in the 1960’s and are working on three, maybe four, brain cells.
These anti-Blair, anti-Bush mobs are the same one’s which either support a global Islamic state, or, overdosed on drugs in the 1960’s and are working on three, maybe four, brain cells.
Isn’t it ironic that people believe a murdering dictator who gassed his own people before their own democratic leaders.
Isn’t it ironic that people believe a murdering dictator who gassed his own people before their own democratic leaders.
Isn’t it ironic that people believe a murdering dictator who gassed his own people before their own democratic leaders.
hello i think that the people who are saying not to go to war with iraq have to idea what they are talking about. would they just like the devil himself (saddam husain) to get more powerful and bomb the u.s. and kill innocent lives like themselves?
hello i think that the people who are saying not to go to war with iraq have to idea what they are talking about. would they just like the devil himself (saddam husain) to get more powerful and bomb the u.s. and kill innocent lives like themselves?
Something I don’t understand is why these protesters are doing this outside of the Armed Forces bases like they can do something about it. Saddam is a monster. These protestors are saying not to go to war, but what happens when Saddam attackes the US and kills one of their loved ones? Will their Tune Change?
Something I don’t understand is why these protesters are doing this outside of the Armed Forces bases like they can do something about it. Saddam is a monster. These protestors are saying not to go to war, but what happens when Saddam attackes the US and kills one of their loved ones? Will their Tune Change?
Something I don’t understand is why these protesters are doing this outside of the Armed Forces bases like they can do something about it. Saddam is a monster. These protestors are saying not to go to war, but what happens when Saddam attackes the US and kills one of their loved ones? Will their Tune Change?
Spamming a website to get your viewpoint in is childish. Learn to the use the Internet and please grow up. If you want others to respect your view, then show some respect to the rest of us. You can go your hole life being a jerk and I won’t wonder why you get treated like one.
I have a hard time understanding why anybody would not want to remove a murdering fascist dictator from power. I actually makes me wonder why I live in the same world with these limp wristed cowards.
Peace Solves Nothing. That is the brutal truth.
Do you think for a minute that if the UN were to ask Saddam to step down he would? Hell no he wouldnt. Saddam has proved that he will do anything possible to keep his power and pass it down to his son. That includes killing you and all you peace loving hippies.
War is the only answer. When faced with a tyrant you better step to bat and crush him before he has the power to crush you. And thats what the US is doing.
I personally am happy that our government has the balls to say “regardless of what the UN thinks”
The US has the right to protect its people. Oh and by the way, go ahead and try to stop us. You will be next.
listen up protest all you want bush is doing his job and what he is doing is great…. c mon waving Iraq flags???????? wtf they burn our flags in Iraq!!!! yea wave the flag that killed thousands of inocent lives in September 11th… or did you forget about september 11th well i DID NOT think that over very hard i am disgusted with anyone who does not want war. war is bad but war has to get done if there are no other soulutions in which this case there are not. usa usa usa usa usa usa usa usa usa
Listen, I do agree that military action should be taken, but I believe it’s very, very wrong to bomb Iraq. I’m 13 years old, and the pupils at me school are planning to go to school, and at 9:30 each morning, walk out of class and protest on the massive school field for the whole day! That, is believing in something. If we bomb Iraq, millions of innocent families just, no, exactly like your families, will perish. I believe military action is necessary, but on a fairer basis. Please, don’t kill people who are sitting in their lounges, not having done a thing wrong in the world. Thank you
Listen, I do agree that military action should be taken, but I believe it’s very, very wrong to bomb Iraq. I’m 13 years old, and the pupils at me school are planning to go to school, and at 9:30 each morning, walk out of class and protest on the massive school field for the whole day! That, is believing in something. If we bomb Iraq, millions of innocent families just, no, exactly like your families, will perish. I believe military action is necessary, but on a fairer basis. Please, don’t kill people who are sitting in their lounges, not having done a thing wrong in the world. Thank you
TomS> Don’t think for a second that 90% of those kids are walking out on class because there is a war about to happen. They are doing it because its a good reason to get out of class right then for the entire day. 80% of them dont know 1/100th of the amount of politics involved in taking this step. Including the past 17 resolutions that were passed by the UN.
Protesting these days is nothing more than an excuse to get out of your day to day rutine, and point fingers at people that are far more educated and involved than any of you could possible pretend to be.
We are lucky to have people who are willing to dedicate their lives to this type of political office, its more than should be asked of anybody, yet here we are pointing our fingers when something goes wrong.
You know what I say to people who point their fingers? GO GET AN EDUCATION!!
f*uck lets him do what saddam wants
saddam is an idiot he’s oly doin this to get everyone elses attention so he can get more powerful.
wat a bad thing to do to iraq u suck bush
Personally The real threat to the world is not saddam’s Iraq- but the worlds ignorance in as the french and germans view that if we just keep appeasing him he will go away..The only truth about history is that we will never learn from history and it’s due to keep repeating itself, I have very strong feelings that we are all born to be free and should have our right to voice our opinions,But that does not give us the right to terrorise our fellow citizins. This is no different than a dictator holding his people hostage through threat and violence. Another thing when someone protest something they should at least have done there home work and have a better viable reason as to why. I have been told by many protesters when I ask them why? they can;t come up with anything more than well what has he ever done to anybody..Well If I had enough room here I could write a book on how he gassed 5000 kurdish and iranians and the money he gets from the baby formula and food he gets from selling the aid that is supposed to go to his people, and the rape camps he set up for his army there is plenty more to go on but I no that the peace activist don’t want to here it cause when I tell them they just shrug it off as propiganda…Oh well…The french condem the US for their actions but it was the french that asked the united states to help fund vietnam long before we new it was a country in fact we picked up 80% of their bill…The french kept the peace during wwII also- they just kept telling themselves that the Germans won,t bother them right up to the day they drove tanks down their streets…Well I myself no that if you lay down your arms and don’t help keep freedom for all. europe would probably be flying a different flag today and would not have the freedom to say how they feel…And whenever some one needs help the first people they come to is the U.S.A. And after 12 years of negotiating with Suddam watching him kill and starve his own people.By asking the rest of the world to help to free the iraqy people we get from most of the world no more than what we expect ..Nothing….It only takes 2 to fight if you like your freedom and have any belief that others around the world deserve as much…If you like waking up wondering if you may die just for saying something that others don’t like then lay down your arms and hide and be sure to keep your mouth shut..who no’s maybe some one in power may just decide they don’t like your race and eradicate you any way..Well Have a nice day all..
I’m not going to get into a history lesson. The short, short version is that the League of Nations (established after WW I to prevent wars) failed to stop Mussolini’s Italy from invading and conquering Ethiopia. It failed to stop Japan from invading and conquering Manchuria and much of China. Their committees wrung their hands, spoke in platitudes, but did absolutley nothing to stop war.
At France’s coaxing, Britain’s prime minister Nevil Chamberlain met with Adolph Hitler in Munich and surrendered the Sudetenland to Nazi Germany in the interest of “peace in our time.” The French and British watched as Germany took Austria, Czechoslovakia, and Yuloslavia. They all had committee meetings and wrung their hands and talked of peace.
World War II erupted when Nazi Germany invaded Poland. Britain had a mutual defense treaty with Poland so they couldn’t escape. They declared war on Germany. Germany had a mutual defense treaty with Japan, so Japan declared war on Britain. France wet their pants and surrendered to Germany as fast as they could and gleefully shipped all the Jews they could find to death camps in Germany to prove to Adolph that they really were on the side of Germany.
Japan attacked the United States and, because of Japan’s mutual defense treaty with Germany, Germany declared war on the United States. Until December 7 and the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor he was really a good guy who just needed a little more land for his expanding population. The dear man just wanted peace. And World War II was in full swing leaving better than 50,000,000 people dead including about 450,000 American soldiers and sailors.
Three cheers for the League of Nations! This time we would call it the United Nations and we would have committee meetings and hand wringing parties and make sure peace prevailed throughout the land.
The peaceful world saw Korea with 37,000 American soldiers killed, over 1,000,000 South Korean soldiers and civilians killed and the country nearly destroyed.
Since then we have had over 50,000 American soldiers killed in Vietnam and have fought wars in Somalia, Herzegovenia, Panama, Granada, as well as the Gulf War when Iraq invaded Kuwait.
We should have gone into Baghdad and taken out that evil regime then, but the United Nations would have no part of that. All they would allow was for us to chase the Iraqis out of Kuwait, then peace would prevail.
Now, here we are with Saddam violating all 17 United Nations resolutions while he has amassed poison gas and bio weapons. Saddam is frantically trying to develop a nuke, and his buddy, Kim Jong-II of North Korea may give him a few. (It was the United Nations who prevented us from taking North Korea when the war was hot and we had the means to do it.) Peace!!! Sure.
France is wetting their collective pants in fear that the United States will take Saddam out and along with him, France’s 60 billion dollar contracts with Iraq. Russia hedges because Iraq owes them 6 billion dollars that they sorely need.
In answer to your question……hell, yes we should go to war with Iraq. We should have done it six months ago. We should also get out of the United Nations. Can you believe that the United Nations has appointed Iraq and Syria to head up the UN Disarmament Committee? Can you believe they have appointed Libya to head up the Human Rights Committee?
All three of those countries are on the UN List of Terrorist States……albolutely unbelievable!
This is one opinion on the War, but this is the eyes, ears and heart of an American veteran.
Ii would like to say only one thing to mr.bush and blair that war is not a solution,it can only increase the terrorist activities in u.k. and u.s.a.you must solve this problem by dialogue. The war will disturb the atmosphere.and after few years the people of usa will begin to fill insecurity in their own home.nobody can predict the future.
I would like to say only one thing to mr.bush and blair that war is not a solution,it can only increase the terrorist activities in u.k. and u.s.a.you must solve this problem by dialogue. The war will disturb the atmosphere.and after few years the people of usa will begin to fill insecurity in their own home.nobody can predict the future.
war is not the solution of any thing , war only can cause injuries and beath, and also u.n not able to do any thing , pray for pease , and also pray for the help of iraqi muslims, and iraqi soilders, and also pray for mujahideen of iraq. (((( MAY GOD BLESS YOU)))))
war is not the solution of any thing , war only can cause injuries and beath, and also u.n not able to do any thing , pray for pease , and also pray for the help of iraqi muslims, and iraqi soilders, and also pray for mujahideen of iraq. (((( MAY GOD BLESS YOU)))))
war is not the solution of any thing , war only can cause injuries and beath, and also u.n not able to do any thing , pray for pease , and also pray for the help of iraqi muslims, and iraqi soilders, and also pray for mujahideen of iraq. (((( MAY GOD BLESS YOU)))))
War does not solve anything, eh? Well it ‘solved’ Nazi Germany and Japan pretty damn well… I think what you mean is that ‘wars that Arabs start’ do not solve anything, at least from the point of view of people like Hizbullah, Al Qaeda or the Baathists… because in the end they always lose. The people who will WIN however are the Iraqi people, and they will win because the US and UK will win and destroy Baathist tyranny that has killed so many of them.
this is crazy*
what is wrong with us? has everyone gone mad?
can anyone tell me the perpose of protest- or silence, or even this web site?
everyone needs to just take a step back for one min….
then ask….. why?
tim
Get ridd of that bastard and all of you disinlusioned people, its pretty sad when we have another Hitler on the scene and misinformed people like you actually have an opinion and support this monster.
latino
The purpose of this site IMO is to allow people to get things off of their minds, by discussing the problems “we” the world are facing these days. Its not a question of who is right or wrong but a chance for us all to say whats on our minds, I have yet to see anybody on this thread attack anyone else and I think that is a stepping stone to where we all as a world would like to be some day. I for one have a son and a wife and would like to enjoy our way of life for as long as possible. Unfortunatly with fascist dictators like Saddam in power the rest of the world cannot rest and connot work towards the greater good of mankind. Once we rid the world of this tyranny type of thinking everything will get better.
I myself think that we are working right now as we speak towards this goal.
Dont get me wrong I do not agree with war. It is true that war is horrible, but it is a neccessary evil. Without war there cannot be peace especially in this day and age.
The world needs to come together, without that we will never move forward and that my friends would doom our species to extinction. We cannot live on this rock forever. Someday we will have a doomsday cataclismic event and hopefully humans will be ready for it. Either with the technology to save ourselves while we exhist on this planet or the technology to remove ourselves from it. This is the brutal trueth. It could be tomorrow it could be 1000 years from now but it will happen.
Without a one world government or a predetermaned amount of humanity we will not be able to move forward. This goal I believe is one of the many reasons we are remving people like Saddam from power. Without people like him the world would be a much more pleasant place to live and we would all really have nothing to worry about except for the few phsycos that are mixed into the general populations.
I myself being an American and a father agree with what we are doing in Iraq, however I do not agree with the way it has happened. I to pray for our brothers sisters fathers and mothers to come home safely, but I also hope that we dont create a bigger problem than we can handle.
Saddam is not just America’s problem, he is a problem to the growth of humanity as a whole, and therefor must be delt with.
Whats gone wrong with you.We should not pray for iraqi muslims and soliders. We should pray for iraqi people.Because in this world there are no muslims there are no christens,all are same.terrorism is main problem of this world. So we have to fight with terrorist and not with innocent people.
I find it hard to believe that the anti-war crowd is serious. There wasn’t one protest when clinton decided he wanted to bomb Iraq for 4 days straight. (without a u.n. resolution) It seems that this unfortunate crowd is Anti-Bush more than it is Anti-War. Take off your masks.
If your point is worth considering, quit hiding behind the mask of the anti-war and show your true face. You guys just hate Bush
I find it hard to believe that the anti-war crowd is serious. There wasn’t one protest when clinton decided he wanted to bomb Iraq for 4 days straight. (without a u.n. resolution) It seems that this unfortunate crowd is Anti-Bush more than it is Anti-War. Take off your masks.
If your point is worth considering, quit hiding behind the mask of “anti-war” and show your true face. You guys just hate Bush. Here is a little side note: Those terrorists who took down the twin towers as well as all the terrorists-in-training somewhere in the middle-east want YOU as well as your children dead too.
I find it hard to believe that the anti-war crowd is serious. There wasn’t one protest when clinton decided he wanted to bomb Iraq for 4 days straight. (without a u.n. resolution) It seems that this unfortunate crowd is Anti-Bush more than it is Anti-War. Take off your masks.
If your point is worth considering, quit hiding behind the mask of “anti-war” and show your true face. You guys just hate Bush. Here is a little side note: Those terrorists who took down the twin towers as well as all the terrorists-in-training somewhere in the middle-east want YOU as well as your children dead too.
Your all idiots
why not post one of photo of the US soldiers holding a gun at the face of iraqi people and the raw terror writ on their faces… just to blow up your bloated disgusting ego some more..
I have a better idea sajan… how about they post some pictures of the dead kurdish women and children in halabja gased by ‘Chemical Ali’ or show the mutilated torture victims who escaped with their lives, now showing people around the places they were tortured by the ba’athist socialists, the same ba’athist socialists that people like you, who probably claim to care about the iraqi people? this is what the people who marched for’peace’ would have allowed to still be happening TODAY if you people had gotten your way. you call that peace? the choice you idiots said you were offering was “support peace, not war, in Iraq” but that was a lie… the choice you were offering in reality was “allow continuing tyranny, not war, in Iraq”.
shame on you.
no
no
You are all dumb! The USA and its allies were right to stop a person and country that is a threat to the whole world. NO one wanted to fight the war but every one wants to look like the good guy and help rebuild Iraq. SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!!!!!!
These protesters wanteed Iraqi’s to continue fighting their own personal war another thirty years. Children killed: tens of thousands
Women killed: tens of thousands
Men killed: hundreds of thousands
Thankfully Bush and Blair put and end to that.
These protesters wanteed Iraqis to continue fighting their own personal war another thirty years. Children killed: tens of thousands
Women killed: tens of thousands
Men killed: hundreds of thousands
Thankfully Bush and Blair put and end to that.
YOU ARE SUCH AN IDIOT. AT LEAST THESE PEOPLE HAD THE COURAGE TO GO OUT AND EXPRESS THEIR VIEWS.
SOMETIMES YOU WONDER IF THE AMERICANS DESERVED WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM ON SEPTEMBER THE 11TH !!!
An idiot without the intelligence to take his caplock off like ‘Usama’ says it all… these schmucks march to prevent a mass murderer from being overthrown and somehow ‘THESE PEOPLE HAD THE COURAGE TO GO OUT AND EXPRESS THEIR VIEWS’.
And if they had been expressing their views in favor of Nazi Germany, would that too have been ‘COURAGE’?
If ‘Usama’ had expressed his views before the liberation of Iraq might be put down to ignorance, that he STILL holds those views after the true horror and the mass graves of Saddam Hussain’s victims have been revealed just shows he is not ignorant but is a supporter of fascism and mass murderers who cannot stand the fact his side lost.
THIS is the reality of what you vermin were marching in support of:
Read the whole article, Usama, and then go out and shoot yourself you piece of crap.
How can anyone accuse Israel of being fashist ?
Educate these people someone.
Opposition for oppositions sake.
You have no Guts You have No Glory.You are A whimp..America- British Ect Help.You HURT…
Why Do You Protest???? Bacause You are either With British and America as Non Terrorists.Or You/Protesters are With Terrorists as HELPERS to THEM…….Being against the war is TAKING TERRORISTS SIDE…We Americans DON”T ASSOCIATE WITH TERRORISTS OR OUR ENEMIES….THE WAR IS ON and AMERICA AND BRITISH ECT WILL WIN..YOU ARE LOSERSSSSSSSSSS..and WILL SEE……….Don’t come to America WE DON’T WANT YOU HERE EITHER………Nor Do We want Your Illeteriate SAD OFFSPRINGS Here EITHER….