Sir Keir Starmer has announced the UK’s recognition of a Palestinian state. Several other countries have done likewise.
I think the consequences of this will be very bad.
There will be even more Muslim terrorism worldwide. It evidently works.
There will be more use of tactics like taking hostages and livestreaming murders and torture for political effect by non-Muslim groups and states, too. These tactics evidently work.
Those people who think that Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians still won’t get to see what actual genocide looks like, but Israel will be more willing than before to kill Palestinian civilians in order to destroy Hamas. Israel has lost a major motive for restraint.
The less likely it is that Israel will defeat Hamas, the more it is in its interests to use other, cruder methods to deter and/or physically prevent future attacks from Gaza. These methods could include annexing some or all of the territory and expelling the inhabitants, or finally flooding the entire network of tunnels with seawater, only this time with no concern for ecological damage. The ecological damage would be the point. It is hard to secretly build military infrastructure in a barren desert, or to hide among civilians in a depopulated land.
Contrary to Sir Keir’s main motive for doing it, his government’s recognition of Palestine will cause even more British Muslims to change their vote away from Labour in favour of Islamic identitarian parties. As Osama bin Laden said, “When people see a strong horse and a weak horse, by nature they will like the strong horse.”
This formation of an explicitly Muslim power bloc will in turn cause even more non-Muslim British people to move from merely opposing further Muslim immigration to Britain (that sentiment is already practically universal) to wanting to get rid of the Muslims already here.
I do not wish for any of this. I just think it is what is likely to happen.
He has, essentially, placed his country on the opposite side from the USA in a bitter shooting war.
This wasn’t just “opening diplomacy.” This was the choosing of sides. This was a hostile act.
I think he choose poorly. Most of my country agrees with this.
But that’s just the Ameri-centric view.
TBH I’m not sure what material difference it will make. What exactly changes when Britain does something politically or the UN makes some proclamation condemning Israel for something once more? Realistically, who cares?
The protests against the Netanyahu in Israel itself certainly matter, but Keir Starmer? Does anyone in Israel or Palestine even know who that is?
As to concerns for ecological damage from flooding the tunnels: I mean what exactly is the concern? That they will turn a bucolic paradise into a toxic environment? The place is already a place Mad Max would fear to tread, how much worse could it actually get? It seems to me that if you have any concern at all for the people of Palestine, especially the long suffering children, then the best thing you can do is get it over with as quickly as possible, destroy Hamas totally, and try to create some sort of administrative structure that allows people some semblance of of civilized life.
I feel horrified for the hostages, what few of them that are still alive, but are we to sacrifice hundreds of lives to save their one life, or should Israel just need to accept that that are, to all intents and purposes, dead already, and then fix the problem? I don’t really know, but that does seem to be a reasonable point of view to consider.
In re: choosing sides against the US.
It seems that Western Europe and the Commonwealth are eager to become part of the Ummah. And that there is nothing that the US can do to slow or stop them. It will be what it will be. But unlike in WW-I, WW-II, and the Cold War; we may be less in the mood to try to save and protect the new Ummah members from their fates and more concerned with destroying all threats and enemies of the US.
Subotai Bahadur
It will be worse than that. Civil War is now certain in Western Europe.
bobby b:
He has, essentially, placed his country on the opposite side from half the USA in a bitter shooting war.
The USA is in a state of Cold Civil War, and as a result has two “special relationships” with the UK. One is the relationship between MAGA America and its English-flag UK counterparts, and the other is between the Deep State of America and its UK equivalent.
The Deep State side here applauds Starmer’s recognition of the Palestinian state, and wishes that they could do the same here in the USA.
Deep Lurker:
Yeah, I can’t argue with that. At least for some period of time, we can claim a majority, and some governing power, but it’s too close to 50/50 to say that firmly.
I don’t have a strong opinion on it, although it did get me looking into which countries already recognised Palestine.
I hadn’t realised that almost all of Eastern Europe had recognised Palestine for over 30 years. This occurred when these states were in the Soviet bloc, but it is curious that none of them have ever repudiated their recognition of Palestine after the end of Communism, including countries usually considered close allies of Israel like Czech Republic and Hungary. That most of the countries were then permitted into the EU and NATO without having to repudiate the recognition of Palestine suggests to me that both Brussels ans Washington, at least at the time, did not see it as an issue.
America is allies with several states who don’t even recognise Israel, like Saudi Arabia, Qatar (largest US military base in Middle East), and Kuwait.
Apparently, it didn’t take long for the Palestine state to now demand several trillion Pounds from the British government in ‘reparations’, going back to 1947!
The numpties in power don’t realise that the Muslim mind sees recognition as a weakness to be exploited. It wasn’t all that long ago, that a senior Muslim cleric was reported as saying, “The West is a woman deserving to be mounted”.
There are more Muhammeds, in various spellings, being born in this country, than any other make children. A large number of town and city mayors, both political and ceremonial, are elected into office, not because of their worth, but because they are part of a larger cultural vote.
It seems that Pte Frazer has been right all along.
They confuse generosity with weakness, and use one concession to extract another.
Interesting points well made Natalie.
Persoanlly, if I’d been Israeli PM on October 8th 2023 pretty much the first thing I would have ordered was the destruction of the tunnels as a top priority. By whatever means. They are (literally) the “Ace in the Hole” for Hamas.
Partly it is intellectual fashion – the Muslims are seen as “exploited and oppressed”, the Jews are seen as “exploiters and oppressors” – and that goes back a long way, for example the Collectivist “liberal” (as if a liberal could be a Collectivist) Hobson claimed, way back during the Boar War, that the British Empire was controlled by “capitalist Jews” – so sadly Sir Ed “Genocide in Gaza” Davy is nothing new.
But it is also changing demographics – although the wife of Sir Keir Starmer is Jewish, there are not many Jews in Britain – Parliamentary seats are not going to be won or lost on the “Jewish vote”. And, on the other hand, there are MILLIONS of Muslims in Britain (and around two BILLION Muslims around the world) – and the number increases daily.
It is much the same in other countries – for example France, witness the antics of President Macron – driven by fear into appeasement of the expanding Islamic population in France.
So the Jews will be sacrificed – but this will not save the Christians or the atheists, eventually their turn will come – already some American (yes American) towns are seeing streets named after terrorists from groups who killed hundreds of Americans (in Lebanon and elsewhere) – and if anyone objects they are an “Islamophobe”.
Crawling appeasement will NOT save the Christians and atheists.
…and in an I’m sure unrelated note, gold just hit £90,000 per kilo for the first time in history… Markets are sniffing the wind in a way Davos inclined politicians seem incapable of.
Natalie says that she does not wish to see the Islamic population reduced – and I can understand that generous position, but things do not remain fixed. The Islamic population is expanding – things are NOT going to remain as they are. And I see no great effort by Christians or atheists to try and convert Muslims. Indeed it is considered “Islamophobic” to try and convert Muslims – “phobic” opposition to Islam being, supposedly, a mental illness. A weird mixture of modern (not traditional) Marxist ideas (declaring all opponents “ists” and “phobes”) with Islamic ideas that conversion from Islam must be punished.
Penseivat – yes, if you add the various spellings together, Mohammed is the most popular boys name in England so Private “we are DOOMED” Fraser may well be correct.
It is much the same in France and some other Western nations.
It is interesting to note that two leading opponents of the National Socialists “Nazis” in World War II – Winston Churchill and Charles De Gualle, would now be considered “Nazis” themselves – because they were opposed to mass immigration and wanted to keep England English and France French.
The modern establishment pretends to revere Winston Churchill and Charles De Gaulle – but if these men were around now, the establishment would send them to prison for “racism”, “Islamophobia” and so on.
Patrick – quite so Sir, and well spotted.
Put not your faith in fiat currencies – be they called Pounds, Dollars, Rubles, or whatever.
Trust in gold – as long as it is physical gold, NOT the paper promises of gold that the London “City” will try and sell you.
If you can not physically touch your gold – you do not have any gold.
Old Glyn – “they confuse generosity with weakness”.
Sadly it is weakness.
I am reminded of when we used to discuss cultural conflicts in the world and some people would post pictures of military aircraft, tanks, missiles and so on, along with pictures of naked women and sporting events – no disrespect meant to the people who posted such things, but none of what they posted was relevant.
Yes the West has lots of fancy missiles and so on – are they going to use them on Birmingham? No they are not – so they are not relevant.
And yes Muslim men can enjoy pornography and sporting events – that will not stop them going back to crushing the infidels afterwards.
This is a battle of ideas, beliefs, and the West is not fighting that battle – neither the secular or the religious authorities are arguing against Islam.
Those who refuse to fight the war of ideas (beliefs) lose by default. And lots of fancy missiles, sex pictures, sport and pop music (now full of “Free Palestine” stuff anyway), are not going to make any difference.
Paul, mine is with Bullionvault (shout out to a fantastic company and the only truly easy and safe way to own gold IMHO) stored in an audited vault in Zurich. I’m crazy glad that I decided to go irresponsibly long on bullion years ago. Watching the markets join me in realising we are governed by fuckwits everywhere and the price go exponential has ‘been emotional’ as Vinny Jones might say.
See the presentations at the Danube Institute’s & The Heritage Foundation’s 5th Geopolitical Summit 15-16 September 2025 of Robert Wilkie at the end of Day 1, and the presentations at the beginning of Day 2, of Tony Abbott and Vaclav Klaus.
When I saw the Palestinian flag on the Eiffel Tower…
Might as well turn Notre Dame into a mosque.
“I see no great effort by Christians or atheists to try and convert Muslims.”
There is a further problem here… Muslims kill apostates, hypocrites and blasphemers. It’s honour, honouring an “Immoral Bedouin”. That term is not mine. It is Mustafa Kemal ‘Ataturk’.
Damn straight I’m an Islamophobe. Hamas, Hezbollah, and a great many others have been working their fannies off to make me Islamophobic. What are they complaining about?
I’m not completely clear on how recognition works. Can a future government say LOLJK?
Well, they had a Palestinian State in Gaza before October 7. See what they made of it. Israel and a Palestinian state cannot exist at the same time.
By the way, if Starmer or Macron wish to have a Palestinian state, no problem. Bring them to your countries (England or France) and give them there as much state as you wish.
Jacob – excellent point, yes the “Two State solution” has already been tried – and it failed, horribly. And the “West Bank” would be the same – the “Palestinian Authority” and “Hamas” kill each other – but they both hate infidels far more than they hate each other.
ggeorge m wenberg – it could be reversed by a future government, but I doubt it will be.
Ellen I got a year’s suspension from the Conservative Party for ticking the post of an “Islamophobe” on Facebook – so I suppose I must be one. Would Mr Zia Yusef of the Reform Party, have treated me any better? I doubt it – Mr Farage does not seem to have made much of a study of Islam, and thinks in terms of “moderates” and “extremists” – quite some time ago I heard the Gentleman say we must not get into a conflict with Islam – as if this was optional.
NickM – yes indeed, leaving Islam is punished by death. Just as mocking Allah or Mohammed is punished by death. However, the British government supports milder punishments for these “crimes” – at least for now.
David Roberts – yes the Danube Institute is good – John O’Sullivan did well in creating it. And, although he most certainly has faults, Prime Minister Orban is a Hungarian patriot – he does not hate his country, as the rulers of many Western nations do.
Patrick – you are a wise man.
I wish you all good fortune and good health.
The Palestinians have nothing more to do than a raid, killing over 1000 Englishmen/Frenchmen and kidnapping a few hundreds.
Then, Starmer/Macron will have to grant them their wishes, if they wish to remain consistent.
Surely, they will not react like Netanyahu??
What will the US do when the formerly friendly nukes in the UK and France are controlled by Ayatollahs? My guess is that if we have a “Trump” in power when that happens, the response will be to disarm the UK and France. How that could ever be done is a mystery to me.
Although the first targets for such Muslim nukes would likely be the rest of Europe, Israel of course, and unfriendly regimes in the Middle East, i.e., the nominal Western allies.
When I saw the Palestinian flag on the Eiffel Tower, I knew that any small hope that I had that France would not fall completely to the latest Jihad was gone. The riots all over Europe, especially in Italy, to force recognition of a “Palestinian State” that has no definable borders [unless they wipe out Israel] and no government that can be held responsible for anything means that Europe is choosing up sides kind of like the mid-to-late 1930’s. They have a pretty poor track record for that kind of choice.
Allow me to put forward some extremely serious thoughts. Of course you may choose to mock them or ignore them and I will not be offended. Some background if I may. For a decade or so I had a career sideline, not under an avatar name, as a writer for professional defense journals. And yes, as part of that I did have appropriate security clearances and was an invited guest in some places that would make the Gentle Readers nervous. What follows is open source.
Once again, this is the extreme case. The way things are going, it looks like the Ummah, including much of Europe, is going to try to wipe out Israel and the Israeli/Jewish people in not too long a time. One of the basic doctrines that the existence of Israel is founded on is “never again”. They are not going quietly for another Holocaust no matter how much the rest of the world wants them to.
Israel is known to have a nuclear arsenal. There are a bunch of public estimates of its size being between 40 and 300. Israeli security is good. They also are widely known to have a Triad delivery system. They have F-15’s and F-16’s for nuclear bombs. They have cruise missiles on conventional submarines. And they have indigenous ballistic missiles. For the last I will note that if you can get a satellite of a certain mass into a picked orbit above a certain altitude; you functionally have a counter-value ICBM. It is publicly known that Israel has been launching satellites since 1988, both for their own use and commercially.
IF Israel is pushed to the point where “never again” is a factor and they decide not to go quietly or alone; how much damage could they do to the Ummah however it is constituted then, and how much to others who threaten[ed] them? It is something to ponder in these serious times.
Subotai Bahadur
Subotai: apparently, you admire the Mongols about as much as i do.
WRT the riots in Italy: I look at them as a test case.
Will Giorgia stand firm?
Will there be a backlash, as there has been in the US in the last few weeks?
I am nervously awaiting for answers to these questions.
Regarding Civil War and its likelihood. I am reading this book:
How Civil Wars Start: And How to Stop Them by Barbara F. Walter
Although the first chapter nearly made me give up (all problems are created by the far right) the rest of the book (so far) is eerily relevant to the situation in the UK and other countries (including America) as regards immigration, ethnic enclaves and the rhetoric which leads up to civil war. She analyses Yugoslavia in particular after the death of Tito and substituting the names of the countries and the characters for your country and politicians makes for an uncomfortable parallel.
Recommended if you want to see what the future may hold.
The “reperations” are the worst form of Danegeld ever. Anybody who thinks it will be spent on schools and hospitals is three stops from Dagenham. Even opening the door a chink to the idea is a beyond Chamberlainesque. Hamas (and their frenemies of the PA) are never going to stop. They absolutely don’t want a two state solution and I even suspect that some of their bosses don’t even want “victory” (meaning the complete destruction of Israel and a genuine genocide) becausr forever wars are a very handy strategy for tyranny.
Contrary to what we are constantly told, the Israeli government has been very WEAK – that is why the Gaza War, which should have been over in a week, has dragged on for two years.
“Bibi”, and many others, seem to have thought that a policy of trying to keep DOWN enemy casualties would get international praise – but the other side has unleashed endless propaganda about civilian deaths – and the International Community has lapped up the propaganda.
As for the West and “Civil War” – streets in Dearborn Michigan (and other towns) are being named after terrorists from groups who killed hundreds of Americans – in Lebanon and elsewhere. And NOTHING is done to counter this – indeed the “mainstream media” do not even report it – as to do so would be “Islamophobic” and “racist”.
The Prime Minister of Italy? This would be the same person who accepted European Union demands for yet MORE immigration.
I see no evidence that there will be real resistance in the West – for there to be “Civil War” there need to be two sides, not one side expanding in numbers (via both immigration and BIRTHS – natural increase, whether it is Birmingham or Vienna – look who is having babies and who is not, on who is NOT having children “feminism”, especially “third wave” feminism, has done its work) and advancing, and the supposed “other side” desperately trying not to be “racist” or “Islamophobic”.
This world view, a world view which is terrified of being an “ist” or a “phobe”, is leading to the destruction of what is left of the West.
It is leading to the destruction of the West – because that is what it was designed to do.
The irony is that the “Critical Theory” (which is the opposite of Critical Thinking) Marxists who made everyone terrified of being called a “racist”, “sexist”, “transphobe”, “Islamophobe” (and so on) are likely to, eventually (eventually), end up victims of Islam. The followers of Islam have no fear of being called “ists” and “phobes” – these magic words are not magical to them, the words of the Critical Theory Marxists have no power over them.
One would have to have a heart of stone – not to laugh.
Paul,
Want a real granite-hearted laugh? Try this.
Gates of Vienna is publishing a ten-minutes- into -the -future series by one “El Ingles” ( there’s an accent in there somewhere) that is well worth a look.
It’s the view of a lot of us in the UK too
NickM – I get a “can not reach this page”.
Raymond Ibrahim has been a highlighting a new problem with Western understanding of Islam – the deliberate mistranslation of the Koran.
For example, the Koran will say – fight the people of the Book (the Christians and so on) till they pay the infidel tax and feel themselves subdued (by the ritual humiliation and so on).
But translations are now starting to say fight the people of the Book – “if they fight you first”. That is NOT what Islam is about – there is no “if they fight you first” – Islam is about expansion over the world that Allah, supposedly, created.
Muslims are not going to be fooled by such mistranslations – they know that only the Koran in Arabic has any legal force, but gullible Westerners are falling for these deceptions.
The corrected URL for the post NickM linked to is here.
Thanks PST. Dunno what went wrong 😖
Philip Scott Thomas and NickM – thank you.
I am surprised that the Islamists were so honest with “Greta” – they could have pretended to be pro LGBT (to pretend to have opinions you do not hold is allowed under Islamic law, if, IF, such a deception benefits Islam) – but they seem to have decided that it was not worth the effort to deceive her and others.
As for what is happening in Italy – the uprising is a combination of Marxists and followers of Islam. Not a natural alliance – as the two philosophies are not compatible, but rather an alliance based on mutual hatred of Western Civilization.
If the present trends continue, the collapse in the Italian fertility rate – and mass immigration, then the forces from Africa and the Middle East will get stronger and stronger over time, due to births (natural increase) as well as mass immigration.
Then when the “useful idiot” (ironically a term of Lenin’s) Marxists have served their purpose, their “friends” will kill them.
The same is true in other Western nations.
Paul,
I think it as simple as this… A pretend “alliance” is OK (usually) if folks are spending an afternoon waving flags and shouting slogans BUT if you are stuck on a small boat for a couple of weeks with people you have a fundamental disagreement over a fundamental moral issue then masks will slip. I’m vaguely amazed nobody was “accidentally” lost overboard…
It’s just a pity this honesty doesn’t manifest itself during the weekly London pro-Palestine (or to be more accurate anti-Jew) protests.
Mind you, the recent defenestration of Jezza by his erstwhile Muslim buddies was pretty entertaining.
On further reflection Jezza being thrown out of his own “ink still dry” party, as described most entertainingly on here by Natalie, would equate to Greta being chucked off her own convoy. Reading between the lines that’s not a million miles away from what happened here.
Me again,
If true this report of Israeli drones interfering with the flotilla electrics making them play ABBA’s “Lay all your love on me” represents near genius trolling.
https://www.gbnews.com/news/world/greta-thunberg-flotilla-hijacked-radios-blast-abba-gaza
If you don’t regularly delouse those furry costumes, they can become a social problem in close quarters.
John,
You made my day! Whilst I appreciate the choosing of Swedish pop music I would have been tempted to use The Village People’s “In the Navy”.
The Muslims on the boat are correct, Greta and the ‘queer communist’ are wrong. If you’re trying to focus a mass movement on one issue, say Palestine, bringing in divisive other issues like LGBT is subversion.
Martin
True, but the woke (hence pro LBGT) crowd is where the useful idiots are. Mind you it’s unlikely this will deter them from being idiots, or useful to the palestinians.
This formation of an explicitly Muslim power bloc will in turn cause even more non-Muslim British people to move from merely opposing further Muslim immigration to Britain (that sentiment is already practically universal) to wanting to get rid of the Muslims already here.
This is the most disturbing scenario. Imagine that the idea of getting rid of all Muslims in Britain became a dominant idea in Britain. How would any government, of any political stripe, implement that? There are Muslim families that have lived in Britain for generations. They are British citizens. Yes, Edward I expelled Jews from England in 1290, but a similar expulsion of Muslims, stripping them of their British citizenship, is just not a viable option today.
The uproar against any such deportation would be deafening and unassailable. There would be genuine civil rights concerns raised.
But that wouldn’t silence public opinion. And so an increasing gulf would arise between the public and the government. No government would be regarded as legitimate.
And at that point we would be looking at the Seventeenth Century all over again.
Philip Scott Thomas – and others.
The position of the British “liberal” (it is not liberal at all) establishment, including the government and the judges (judges selected by a committee created by Prime Minister Blair – “right wingers” need not apply) is clear.
Burn a Koran (but not a Bible) in the street – and you are committing a crime.
But try and kill the Koran burner with a knife (and kick him in the head as he is bleeding on the ground) and you get no prison time at all.
To a British judge attempted murder is not a serious thing – IF it is done in defense of Islam. And NO the judge was NOT a Muslim.
And you are talking about the British people demanding that Muslims be deported? Can you not see how out of touch with reality such a discussion is?
The public can not even get a follower of Islam sent to prison for attempted murder – for slashing someone with a knife screaming that he was going to kill them.
Protection from being murdered is clearly not a “civil rights concern”.
“And at that point we would be looking at the Seventeeth Century all over again”.
How?
The British people are unarmed, they are helpless. Governed by a “liberal” establishment which is filled with hatred for the British people.
Even minor resistance to the “liberal” establishment was savagely punished last year – with years in prison, and the Prime Minister (a lawyer) gloating about the punishments BEFORE the trials.
There was no effort to even pretend that the court process was a matter of justice – it was a naked exercise of power.
“But at the next General Election….”
The next General Election will not be till 2029 – if we get there.
And Mr Farage of the Reform Party keeps saying that he wants no conflict with Islam.
If there is any hope – I do not see it.
For translated versions of the Koran, try http://www.Gutenberg.org.
The last time I looked, there were three versions on that website, all of them translated before or around the year 1900 so well before political correctness etc. kicked in and therefore a true rendering of the original
Phil B – thank you Sir.
By the way – some of the people sent to prison last year (and in other years) had done nothing, not even token acts of resistance. They were just in the wrong place at the wrong time – or had expressed an opinion on social media. The Prime Minister gloated that they were going to be sent to prison – he gloated before the “trials” even took place.
“Plead guilty or you will get a harsher punishment” people were told.
Juries?
Like the jury who said it was fine for a Labour Councillor to cross London and tell an angry mob to “cut the throats” of their political opponents?
It is not just the Twin City area of Minnesota or New York or Washington D.C. who get “interesting” juries – we very much have them here in Britain.
Just as in America the “new juries” reflecting “education” (leftist indoctrination) and changing demographics are now operating in Britain. The “new juries” are NOT interested in “abstract” rules of justice (no more than the new, Blair Committee selected, JUDGES are) – they are interested in only one thing “are you part of my group – or against my group”.
Nothing else matters to them. They will convict the innocent, to be sent to prison to be abused by gangs (oh yes gangs are now in control of many British prisons – often gangs from a certain religion) – and they will allow the guilty to walk free.
And with each passing day the situation gets worse.
Marxists talk about “structural racism” in the “power structures” of the justice system – and they are sort-of correct, but in the opposite way to that which they claim. Just as they claim there is a structural bias against them in the education system and the media – when there is, in fact, a structural (institutional) bias in their favour.
Look up the research for yourself – how people from different groups tend to operate on juries, both in the United States and in the United Kingdom.
See who favours their “own kind” (the members of their group) and who does not.
If a population, either because of indoctrination or demographic change (or both), stops supporting the “abstract” principles of justice (the non aggression principle – private property rights) and, instead, starts supporting the principles of “Social Justice” (loot-burn-rape-kill) then the nation is doomed.
Philip Scott Thomas Sep 24 8:57
We are kinda there already. Since the Boriswave ILR will have kicked in before there is any likely change of government, a future elected Reform type government with some idea of democratic legitimacy will have to face up to retrospectively annulling ILR for some 5 or 6 million people. Shameful, yes, unprecedented, yes, but it’s where the last 10 degraded years will have brought us.
Ftaod, I do think that we are stuck with the likes of Sidiq Khan, born in Tooting.
David Wallace – I refer you to the repeated statements of Mr Nigel Farage that there is nothing wrong with Islam, just a few nasty people who have twisted and perverted Islam.
In short we have NOT moved on from the position of President Bush and Prime Minister Blair.
Perhaps Mr Farage will prove me wrong – and, for example, remove Mr Zia Yusuf from the Reform Party, but do-not-hold-your-breath-waiting-for-that.
As for immigration – as John Enoch Powell warned us, 60 years ago, the situation has changed. Now there is the matter of “natural increase” – BIRTHS.
If all immigration stopped today – the eventual destruction of this nation would still occur.
However, I AGREE with you David Wallace – the “Boris wave” was a disgrace (he knew the British people wanted an end to mass immigration – and, instead, Mr Johnson massively INCREASED immigration) – and by this, and his other betrayals (for example the betrayl of Northern Ireland – and the insane Covid lockdowns, which he did not believe in – but gave in on) Mr Alexander Johnson has removed himself from serious discussion of anything.
I am told that at university Mr Johnson had a bust of Pericles in his room – seemingly blind to how the policies of Pericles undermined Athens. How the, de facto, using of tax money to win votes policy of Pericles was a disgrace – and how his plundering of the Delian League turned the allies of Athens into enemies.
Admirers of Pericles value good sounding speeches over wise policy.
As for spending tax money to “reduce poverty” or “improve public services” – as Aristotle later pointed out, that is like pouring liquid into a container with no bottom on it.
David Wallace – as you yourself point out, Mayor Khan was born in England – and some decades ago.
We are indeed long beyond the point when stopping mass immigration, or even removing recent immigrants, would prevent the future crises.
The hope of assimilation, it it ever was a real hope, has proved false.
Assimilation is NOT sport (Association Football and other such), or pop music, or porn, or whatever – assimilation is about basic principles, beliefs.
And how could the West hope that other populations would adopt its principles (its beliefs) when those Westerners who control the education system and the culture (the entertainment media and so on) do not believe in these principles themselves – indeed hate-and-despise these basic principles-beliefs.
Paul Marks –
You seem to have missed the point I was attempting, perhaps unsuccessfully, to make. The point was that if a sizeable portion, not necessarily a majority, of the populace ever came to believe that all Muslims must be expelled from Britain then we, as a country, would be in a very dangerous place.
For one thing, it would set them against the government. No government either would or could deliver what they demand. Even if a government had the political will to do so, such an act would be both illegal and immoral. What then happens with those who want Muslim expulsion? They will perpetually be frustrated in getting what they want. How would they respond to that frustration? Would they be satisfied by simply marching in demos? Or would they take matters into their own hands? How would they respond to fellow citizens who disagree with them? How high would tensions rise? If the proportion of the citizenry is great enough, would any political be able to get sufficient votes to form a majority? If not then what happens to government in Britain, to say nothing of the idea of government legitimacy?
That’s the point I was making – that if the idea of Muslim expulsion from Britain ever took serious hold the results would be potentially be catastrophic for civil life.
I think they tend to destroy political movements from within. Look at ‘Your Party’. The socially conservative Muslim independent MPs involved seemed to have been behaving relatively professionally. It was the two woke leftists – Zarah Sultana and Jeremy Corbyn – that have made it a laughing stock even before it got going.
I recent became aware of the story of the International Socialist Network, which was a brief splinter party from the Trotskyist Socialist Workers Party in 2013-14. It is a curious early example of woke leftists tearing each other apart. The issue that seemed to wreck the party from within was an online debate about lesbian bondage and certain black lesbian party members taking umbrage at white party members saying anything they disagreed with. It is a quite amusing story but exposes woke leftists as being impossible to work with and therefore subversive to their own political causes.
You don’t outlaw peoples, or races, or colors, or clans.
You outlaw practices. You remove speech prohibitions against practices that are incompatible with traditional British life. You outlaw anything that smells of Sharia, of anti-blasphemy, of special protections for religions. You outlaw the hiding of faces in public. You outlaw rape, and you enforce this fanatically.
You don’t really want or need to remove “Muslims.” You want to remove anti-British, clannish, segregated Islam.
Once you do this fanatically, the people who insist on bringing jihad to your home might well look elsewhere. And if they don’t, you expel them for their actions.
You don’t want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. You have plenty of great Muslim neighbors. Keep them, throw out the rest.
bobby b
That is the sensible response. As much as I abhor thinking of individuals as members of some collective, I’d not come to that conclusion.
Thank you for putting me right.
At a fundamental level there is a problem with those who believe in freedom and those that do not because it is very difficult to reconcile the two.
I don’t have a problem with the opinions of individuals and have no wish to enforce my views on others and this works fine when others believe similarly about me. But against wannabe tyrants it kinda falls apart.
I have no problem with someone being a Muslim. I do have a problem when they insist that I also convert or die!
I am couching this in terms of Islam because of the way this comment thread has gone but it also applies to many more things…