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Discussion point: Russia’s destruction of the Trypillya thermal power plant “Key power plant near Kyiv destroyed by Russian strikes”, the BBC reported yesterday.
There are several different English spellings of the name of the power plant and the place where it is situated. I have seen Trypillya, Trypillia, Trypilska and Tripilska. However one spells it, the thermal power plant was the largest electricity provider for three regions including Kyiv.
I’m not going to sugar-coat it: this is a heavy blow to Ukraine. What happens next? Given that it has worked well for them, we must assume that the Russians will repeat the same tactic. But two can can play at that game – if they are allowed to.
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Well the only surprise is that Russians did not have had destroyed it yet. Now the pathetique euro political-journalist class will learn any lesson? That for war you need weapons, military culture and capability?
Why as this not done in February 2022? And why is Russia still, I am told, providing gas to Ukraine? Supposedly even some of the power produced by the nuclear power stations controlled by Russia is still going to Ukraine?
Nothing Mr Putin does makes any sense, he even had people (in offices) and ships in exposed positions in Crimea when there were vast Cold War facilities that could have protected them.
If Russia still wins this war it will not be because of Mr Putin – it will be in spite of him. Indeed he could have nipped all this in the bud in 2014, when the pro Russian government was removed – instead Mr Putin allowed the West eight years to arm and train Ukrainian forces (which were weak in 2014). It was unjust to attack eastern Ukraine – but it was also stupid to intervene but not finish the job. If you are going to be unjust – at least be unjust competently, not in the horribly incompetent way Mr Putin has been unjust.
Even leaving aside the justice of interfering in Ukraine, and I believe that it was-and-is UNJUST for Moscow to interfere in Ukraine, it has been done in an incredibly incompetent way – that has got vast numbers of Russians killed over the last two years.
Before the Putin defenders appear…..
No there was (not was not) a Covid lockdown in Russia – you are thinking of Belarus (where there was not a Covid lockdown).
Nor is most land privately owned in Russia – it is not Texas.
Nor is baby killing banned in Russia – in fact it is very common.
Nor is Mr Putin leading some sort of anti Islam crusade – actually he gets on very well with the Islamic powers, and his speeches about Islam are just like those of George Walker Bush – “religion of peace” and all. And the number of Muslims continues to increase in Russia – much to the horror of the late Mr Navalny.
In short everything the Putin defenders come out with is just WRONG – plain WRONG.
And, no apology for saying it again, you do not benefit Russia but getting lots of Russians killed – which Mr Putin has over the last two yeara.
“But Russia is still going to win” – even if Russia does win, again this is IN SPITE of Mr Putin, not because of him.
“But two can play at that game – if they are allowed to”.
There have been many attacks on Russian infrastructure, including energy infrastructure, a very long way from Ukraine (gas pipelines in the Baltic, railway tunnels to China – and-so-on) – attacks most likely carried out by Western special forces, although perhaps (perhaps) the Ukrainians have done them – Russians do not believe that, but perhaps Russians are just wrong in who they blame.
Carrying on such attacks deep in Russia on a larger scale would risk thermonuclear war with Russia – and the ICBMs would NOT be aimed at Ukrainian cities – they would destroy London, New York and so on.
It might be considered that it is worth the risk (“after all most people in many American and many other Western cities are not, these days, Westerners anyway – and productive industry has, mostly, moved out of these cities”) – but such decisions are for people way above our “pay grade”.
I am filled with horror at the idea of thermonuclear war destroying the cities of the West (regardless of who now lives in them) – but I am a rather timid (weak) person.
As for the average Russian thinking about the prospect of Moscow and Saint Petersburg being destroyed – well many Russians have never visited these cities, they live a vast distance away, and travel is expensive relative to the low level of Russian incomes.
There is also the attitude of the People’s Republic of China to be considered.
In thermonuclear war Dictator Xi would either side with Mr Putin (which would mean sacrificing many Chinese cities) – or wait for Russia and the West to nuke each other, and then take over a world leadership position.
Three centuries ago when some (a minority – but some) Ukrainians sided with the Swedish King Charles XII, Czar Peter had them hanged for treason.
The legal defense was that Ukraine was not part of Russia – but to Peter the Great, and Russians generally, “the borderlands” were part of Russia, so Ukrainians who fought against Russia were not enemies in war – they were traitors, and were to be treated as-such.
Sadly this remains the common attitude.
Edward the First had a similar attitude towards the Scot William Wallace – and towards the Welsh. Henry IV had a similar view – in relation to the Welsh.
The United States fought a terrible war, in which way over half-a-million people were killed (out of a population of only a few tens of millions) to establish the principle that a State could not secede – could not leave the Union.
Texas had only joined the Union in 1845, having never been under Washington ever before, but was told in 1861 that it could not leave.
And, before anyone asks, President Lincoln made it clear that even if a State freed all slaves – it still could not leave the Union.
But… but…. but…. aren’t we supposed to be refusing to support peoples fighting to preserve their lives and homeland from agressors?
Who would be so barbaric as to bomb a power plant?
Serbs unsettled by NATO strikes on power plants
The Russian elections were not free and not fair – and the Ukrainian Legislative and Presidential elections did not happen at all.
Even during the Civil War (which killed more people than all other American wars put together – and out of a population that was a small fraction of what it is today) the 1862 Midterm Elections, and the 1864 Presidential Elections went ahead.
Still there is time – as President Zelensky’s term of office does not expire till the 20th of May this year.
Attacking industrial capacity is a fundamental aspect of warfare, regardless of who does it.
I am indifferent on the subject, but what would that achieve?
Regardless of how you feel about Ukraine, right now… Russia cannot be allowed to benefit in any way from what they’ve done there. This means supporting Ukraine, full stop.
There’s already been far too much unraveling of the international order; the idjit class around the world has primed the pump for their removal, whether they realize it or not. I suspect that at least a part of why the US “leadership” is doing what it is doing has to do with that 34 trillion-dollar debt they’ve run up, and they’re hoping to render it irrelevant in the coming “new order”. Same with Xi in China; his decisions have been so bad that about the only way he’s going to conceal the crash of the Chinese economy is if he manages to camouflage it in the coming turmoil.
Do take a look at what gold is doing, right now. Along with what Iran is busy setting the stage for…
There is far too much instability in the system, and too many idiots that think they’re geniuses running things. I would be surprised at nothing that happens in the next year or two, up to and including the arrival of alien intelligences and/or the second coming of Jesus Christ. The zeitgeist is just flowing that way…
Idjits. One and all, that we’ve put in charge or allowed to remain in charge once having proven their idiocies.
Kirk. I agree with basically all of that.
Perry – “but what would that achieve”- fair and free elections in Ukraine are essential if, as we are constantly told, we are supporting democracy. Otherwise our claims ring hollow. Going into the American elections in November saying “give us yet more tens of Billions, to prop up the dictatorship in Kiev” would not be a viable position – elections must be held in Ukraine, then the fight can continue to be honestly presented as one for democracy. Just as Civil Liberties and religious liberty must also be upheld in Ukraine – to show that the fight is for freedom.
Mr Putin does not allow dissenting media and he persecutes dissenting churches – it is not good, it is bad, to copy the policies of Mr Putin.
Kirk – “the enemy gets a vote”.
It may not be possible for the West to win in Ukraine – we do not yet know, we shall have to see. Indeed if Mr Putin was not incompetent the matter would have been over in 2014.
Russia may still win, regardless of how much money, and how many special forces teams and military “advisers”, the West sends against Russia. But if Russia does win – it will be in spite of Mr Putin, not because of him.
The “collapse of China” – perhaps it will collapse, or perhaps this is disinformation, we shall have to wait and see.
What is certain is that the United States, and the rest of the West, is going to hit very hard times very soon – the mathematics is clear, as you yourself know.
I do not know about China – most data from there is smoke and mirrors anyway. But America is bankrupt – in reality, even if not in legal theory. That is clear. And, tragically, it is not just an economic bankruptcy, it is also a cultural (societal) bankruptcy – the same is true of most of the Western world.
Still there is time – as President Zelensky’s term of office does not expire till the 20th of May this year.
It isn’t clear to me why that matters since elections are suspended, opposition parties banned, political opponents put in prison, the press under strict control of the government, and every dissenting voice muzzled, even to the point of shutting down a whole religious denomination. Sounds a lot like Russia, or, for that matter, America.
As Zelenskiy himself says: “I believe that now is not the time for elections.”
I understand that some feel the claim of “total war” justifies this or the practicalities justify this. YYMV on that one, but it certainly isn’t currently a democratic system. Again, kind of like America where they are saving democracy by shutting it down.
Perhaps, with the looming threat of a “Trump dictatorship” we will hear Biden tell us that now is not the time for elections. And I think a very large part of the American population would agree with him. In fact in a recent poll by Scott Rasmusen he discovered that of the top 1%, the people who control the country, 69% of them indicated that in an election they’d rather cheat than lose.
”Going into the American elections in November saying ‘give us yet more tens of Billions, to prop up the dictatorship in Kiev’ would not be a viable position.”
What dictatorship in Kiev? Zelensky didn’t suspend the elections, the Ukrainian constitution did, and for good reason.
”…elections must be held in Ukraine…”
How would that even work? 20% of the country is occupied by Russian troops. You yourself have said that Russian elections are not free and fair. Those troops will not allow an honest election. Russia has stated flat out that Ukrainian government workers at any level — national, provincial, or regional — will be taken to a “filtration camp” and “eliminated” (their words). Who in the Ukrainian government would serve as poll workers in the occupied territories under such conditions?
Polls in the unoccupied areas wouldn’t fare much better. Russia has launched thousands of missiles at Ukrainian schools, hospitals, and apartment buildings. They even bombed a funeral. That funeral was in a small town in the middle of nowhere. There was nothing else around it — it was intentional. Do you think for one second that the Russians wouldn’t bomb the polling places? And even if they didn’t, how many Ukrainians would avoid voting in fear of their lives?
There is just no way to hold an honest election in Ukraine under the present conditions, and even the attempt would likely cost thousands of Ukrainians their lives. Surely you can see that, can’t you?
”Russia may still win, regardless of how much money, and how many special forces teams and military ‘advisers’ the West sends against Russia.”
If the West holds firm, Russia cannot win. You have good reason to doubt that the West will hold firm, but that’s on the West, not anyone else.
Oh gawd. By that logic UK in WW2 was a dictatorship. Ukraine has a constitution, they are following their constitution.
You means the Russian-state controlled Orthodox faction? It’s not a denomination, it’s just a different patriarchate. The patriarchates which are not directly controlled wholly owned adjuncts of the Russian state are not banned.