We are developing the social individualist meta-context for the future. From the very serious to the extremely frivolous... lets see what is on the mind of the Samizdata people.

Samizdata, derived from Samizdat /n. - a system of clandestine publication of banned literature in the USSR [Russ.,= self-publishing house]

“Rare unrest in Guangzhou”

This video comes via the Guardian: “Rare unrest in Chinese city of Guangzhou as people protest over Covid restrictions”

Is unrest such as this really so rare? Would we know if it were not rare?

Related posts: “Riding the Covid tiger” and “Sci-Fi dystopia or real world?”

37 comments to “Rare unrest in Guangzhou”

  • Colli

    Serious question: Why is the Chinese government continuing with zero covid? Is it just to express their power? It is clearly not popular with the citizens, it is not good for their economy, so what is the point?
    Do they want an uprising?

  • Mr Ed

    I doubt that they are getting to unrest like the summer of 1989 in East Germany, when belief in the system collapsed. More interesting is Iran, where the football team reportedly did not sing the national anthem before the game with England. That is the sort of thing that shows that the belief has gone. Once belief is lost, it is then a matter of losing fear.

  • Nicholas (Unlicensed Joker) Gray

    Xi probably wants a success story. If he was smart, he’d concentrate the older, nonproductive, people into a few ‘retirement’ cities, and introduce covid into those cities. I read recently that he is talking about Universities for the elderly- I wonder how clean the textbooks will be?

  • Paul Marks

    The People’s Republic of China Dictatorship is the model the international establishment are trying to impose on the world – if it is failing (and I do not know if it is or not) then they should take note.

    It should also be remembered that, in some ways, the People’s Republic of China is less extreme in its Corporate State interventionism than the United States and United Kingdom are – for example the PRC lacks the obsession with pushing certain people on their basis of their skin colour or their sexual perversions – it is not Frankfurt School, not “Woke”. It is unlikely that young children in China are subjected to sexual perversion – as is increasingly normal in the United States, Drag Queens and so on, or that children are encouraged to be sexually mutilated – which both government and Big Business (not that there is any real divide between the government bureaucracy and the Corporate bureaucracy) push in the United States.

    A market is supposed to work by many sellers trying to attract the custom of buyers by offering goods and services they believe customers will like, at prices that will be attractive to customers – the way the Western “market” works is vast “Woke” corporations (such as the supermarkets) push products in line with the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion agenda whether customers want them or not – for example, in spite of many years brainwashing in the far left schools and universities, few people in the United Kingdom really want the latest ghost written book supposedly from Michelle Obama – but it will be shoved in their faces when the go to the supermarket in order to push sales. China has its own version of this – but it will be the works of the leader that are pushed (in supposedly private supermarkets and so on) rather than someone on the basis of their skin colour (which is how young Michelle got into Princeton – in the corrupt modern Western system).

    Neither the People’s Republic of China or the West is, strictly speaking, Marxist – as nominally private companies dominate production and sales, but these companies must work in coordination with the state for political and cultural objectives (whether the customers like it not) – the name for such a system is the Corporate State, what the late Italian Prime Minister Mussolini called “Fascism”.

    Why is the economy concentrated into a few “Woke” hands in the West? Partly tax policy, but mostly the Cantillon Effect of Credit Money concentrating assets into a few hands – it is much the same in China whose money is also fiat, and whose financial system is also a bubble.

    I hope the Chinese system falls – as I also hope the similar (similar – but not identical) system falls in the United States and other Western lands.

  • Paul Marks

    The Disney Corporation tries to get on well with the People’s Republic of China Communist Party Dictatorship – seeing its rule as a model for the United States. It even gave special thanks for the slave labour (Muslims – who the PRC regime is seeking to exterminate) who helped with the Disney “Mulan” live action film (by the way – a dreadful film).

    However, their relationship has become strained due to the extreme “Wokeness” (Frankfurt School “Critical Theory” Marxism) of Disney – as China is not pro Frankfurt School (well it is in relation to the United States and other Western nations the PRC wishes to destroy – but NOT in China itself, as the regime does not want to destroy its own country with the Frankfurt School poison of “Wokeness).

    How does Disney get away with making endless “Woke” films and television shows – the sort of cultural poison that would not be made in China. Disney gets away it partly by trading on old glories (these days someone like Mr Walt Disney would be shot, as a “reactionary, racist, homophobe, transphobe bigot” if he tried to enter the Disney offices – but misty-eyed parents and grandparents, remembering the Disney of old, take children to see the latest Disney poison), but mostly it is “Cheap Money” (money created from NOTHING) from the Credit Bubble banks (backed by the Federal Reserve) that allows Disney to buy up competition.

    And when competing companies are bought up – Disney makes them as “Woke” (Frankfurt School, Critical Theory) as it itself is.

    We must indeed hope for the day when the PRC dictatorship falls – but we must hope for the day when the “Critical Theory” Corporate State in the United States and other Western lands, falls.

    Remember the international Corporate State agendas (Agenda 2030, ESG, and so on) have a strong “cultural aspect” – they push a certain form of culture, the “Woke” form of culture. The People’s Republic of China Dictatorship supports this poison in the West – but does not want it in China itself.

  • Paul Marks

    One difference between the People’s Republic of China and the West is the education system.

    Like the old Soviet Union the People’s Republic of China education system is NOT Frankfurt School, not “Woke”.

    For example, the idea that “mathematics is racist” would get someone a bullet in the head in Stalin’s Soviet Union or the modern People’s Republic of China. There is indeed in Chinese a new word (and character in the Chinese script) which means “white leftist” (meaning Frankfurt School “Woke” type) – it is not a complement, it is a deadly insult. A Chinese who called another Chinese a “white leftist” would likely get a punch in the face.

    The sort of brain-dead zombies one finds in American (and other) schools and universities, chanting mindlessly about “racism”, “sexism”, “transphobia” as they vote Democrat – is not a feature of China.

    So, oddly enough, Chinese young people are more likely to turn against the regime than American, or other Western, young people are likely to turn against the “Woke” regimes of the West.

    Chinese education teaches that there is such as thing as objective truth – at least in such things as mathematics, science and medicine. The Communist Party does NOT want students applying the idea of objective truth to economics and politics – as that would destroy the Communist Party regime, but young Chinese MIGHT do this.

    In the United States, where the young are taught that objective truth (in anything) is an evil fiction (that it is “racist” and so on), rejection of the regime is (sadly) less likely.

    I hope I am mistaken about that – and that the economic collapse in the United States over the next couple of years will get young people to, somehow, break free of the conditioning (“brainwashing”) they were subjected to at school and university, and by the media – including the entertainment media.

    The “high priests of democracy” as an insane Federal judge recently called the teachers and academics, must be defeated.

  • JohnK


    It might amuse you to know that Disney now owns the Indiana Jones franchise.

    The fifth Indiana Jones movie has been filmed, but not released, as sample audiences hate it. Five different endings have been filmed, but the audiences hate them all.

    Disney have decided that a male Indiana Jones is now unacceptable, and so through a ludicrous plot involving time travel, the male Indy played by Harrison Ford is going to become a female Indy played by Phoebe Waller-Bridge. Apparently, she gets to keep the fedora.

    The idea is that in the future Indiana Jones movies, Indy will be Phoebe Waller-Bridge in a fedora. Will the fact that audiences hate this affect the plan? If this movie ever sees the light of day, we will see that wokism has prevailed. But all is not well at Disney, the boss has been fired and the old boss brought back, and, a bit like Elon Musk, he has started sacking some of the woke executives. Maybe the worm will turn? Let’s hope so.

  • bobby b

    Don’t know that I’d look to Iger to rescue Disney from WokeDisney.

    He IS WokeDisney.

  • JohnK


    Could he be any worse than the guy he’s replaced?

    It’s just possible that Disney have realised that if people don’t buy their product, they’ll go out of business.

  • Marcus R.

    It should also be remembered that, in some ways, the People’s Republic of China is less extreme in its Corporate State interventionism than the United States and United Kingdom are

    You means other than concentration camps in Xinjiang, social credit system weaponised panopticon, organ harvesting prisoners & welding tens, perhaps hundreds of millions of people in their homes for ‘lockdowns’?

    Sure, UK & USA are totally comparable 😉

  • bobby b

    “Could he be any worse than the guy he’s replaced?”

    Yeah, I think so. Chapek decided to somewhat lay low when DeSantis pushed the “Stop Grooming Our Kids” bill, after seeing which way the winds were blowing. That alienated him from the rest of Disney upper management, who pushed Disney to dump him. Their CFO really trashed him publicly, as too weak, and “not right for the job.”

    Once it became apparent that there was no true “red wave” across America midterms, Disney has (I think) decided to re-enter those culture wars. Hence, Iger returns. I’m betting we see lots more Disney remakes with . . . different characters.

    Woke US corporatism is going to be charging ahead hard now.

  • JohnK


    In that case, I would sincerely hope that Disney crashes and burns, and that when they phone Sleepy Joe for help he’s having his afternoon nap. Even Phoebe Waller-Bridge in a fedora won’t save them.

  • Peter MacFarlane

    “he is talking about Universities for the elderly”

    Quite sensible seeing as before long China will mostly be elderly people.

    I wonder where they’ll find the six-year-olds to assemble the iPhones…

  • JohnK


    Having looked into this, I think you are right. Reappointing Iger is an act of desperation by Disney, but he will not be able to ignore the commercial reality that the woke output of the studio is hated by audiences. Bigger companies than Disney have failed in the past, and the woke output may well bring them down. If so, good riddance. If we don’t have to see Phoebe Waller-Bridge as Indiana Jones, it will have been worth it.

  • Michael Taylor

    Paul Marks:
    “It should also be remembered that, in some ways, the People’s Republic of China is less extreme in its Corporate State interventionism than the United States and United Kingdom are. . . ”

    Good grief: I’m not aware that the UK government demands a Conservative Party cell be set up in each major company, to observe management and where necessary ‘correct’ them. I’m not aware the US government demands the same for the Democratic Party.

    I’m also not aware of major corporate figures being ‘disappeared’ for weeks or months on behalf of the Conservatives/Democrats before turning up later to sing the government’s praises to students and schoolchildren.

    Still, you qualified your seemingly bizarre assertion with ‘in some ways’. I’d like to know what you think those ‘ways’ are. And don’t, please, just complain about ‘woke’ before you consider the inculcation of Chinese Han nationalism. . . .

  • JohnK


    I feel what Paul is saying is that in China there is no call to “decolonize” maths and science. Nor is there any tolerance of transgender ideology or indeed any form of Frankfurt school Marxism.

    I doubt Paul is making the case that Red China is anything other than a vile dictatorship, rather that it has no interest in the sort of cultural Marxism which is defacing the west.

  • Michael Taylor

    No doubt you are right in your assessment of what Paul is saying. What’s strange is that his way of presenting that argument suggests that the impact of wokedom is worse/more oppressive/more important that the straightforward Leninist totalitarianism which the CCP seeks (quite successfully) to impose on the corporate sector. If that’s his argument, I think it’s important to point out just what an extreme (and wrong) claim it is.

  • Paul Marks

    Michael Taylor – I made it clear that I was referring to the Frankfurt School Critical Theory “Woke” Marxism, which the People’s Republic of China certainly encourages in the West – but not in China. The purpose of the Critical Theory “Divesity, Equity and Inclusion” agenda is to destroy society – it goes back to Herbert Marcuse and other Frankfurt School thinkers, yes I know that Marcuse never taught in Frankfurt, that is not what I mean by Frankfurt School AND YOU KNOW IT.

    The friend of the People’s Republic of China dictatorship is not me Mr Taylor – it is not me who went crawling to them at the recent “G20” following a despicable practice of crawling to this dictatorship that goes all the way back to Edward Heath and Richard Nixon – when Mao was still in power and murdering millions of human beings.

    As for the economic policies of the PRC dictatorship they are not Marxist – as you know Mr Taylor, they practice “Stakeholder Capitalism” (the Corporate State) and Credit Bubble finance – the same despicable doctrines that are pushed in the West by the establishment, including the governments of many Westen nations.

    Do I support this economic policy? No, I condemn it – as I hope you do Mr Taylor. I totally condemn Corporate State “public-private partnership” Fascism – whether it is in China or-anywhere-else.

    You seem, Mr Taylor, to regard Critical Theory “Woke” Marxism as a minor matter – it is not a minor matter, it is destroying Western nations such as the United States and the United Kingdom.

    I do not regard the destruction of society as a minor matter, nor do I believe it is “just a bunch of students who will grow up when they leave college” – as we now know that this is NOT true. They carry on with the doctrines they have been taught later in life – whether as government bureaucrats or corporate managers.

  • Paul Marks

    In a grim way it is amusing to be accused of being a friend of a dictatorship who I have been an enemy of all my adult life – whereas the establishment of the United Kingdom and the United States (including many so-called Conservatives) have been crawling to that dictatorship all my adult life. Still, I must get on.

    JohnK – it was Bob Chapek who tried to roll back the “Woke” policies of his predecessor (the predecessor who got unlimited Credit Money to buy up the rivals of Disney) – sadly Bob Chapek has lost that power struggle.

    You make the assumption that modern Corporations care about pleasing ordinary customers – sadly this is often no longer true, they care about pleasing BlackRock, State Street and Vanguard and other “Woke” entities. The power of these entities is created and sustained by the Cantillon Effect – vast amounts of Credit Money created from NOTHING and dished out to entities buy up real assets before the value of the Credit Money drops.

    The destruction of Western society continues, the West is not dying a natural death – the West is being murdered.

    And, yes, the People’s Republic of China dictatorship encourages this Critical Theory (“Woke” “Diversity, Equity, Inclusion”) evil in the West – as a weapon to destroy the West. Whilst, obviously, not tolerating it at home.

    It is much the same with the broader “Environmental and Social Governance” agenda (Agenda 2030 and all that). Those waiting for the People’s Republic of China to, for example, cut C02 emissions will be waiting a long time – like DEI (which I still think of as DIE – Diversity, Inclusion and Equity) SEG is a weapon to help destroy the West – it is not intended to destroy China.

    People like Dr Klaus Schwab and his son may think that they have massive influence in China, but they do NOT. They are fools – the WEF are not the puppet masters they believe themselves to be, in fact they are the puppets.

    The, unknowing, puppets of the People’s Republic of China Dictatorship.

  • Paul Marks

    What does the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Agenda mean in practice – it means, broadly, the destruction of the family and of communities and national culture, but it also has some very specific aspects.

    For example, the sexualisation and sexual mutilation of children – there has been some push back in the United Kingdom against that (although the government does not seem to grasp that the “Diversity” agenda which it supports, includes the sexual mutilation of children, which it opposes – lack of basic knowledge leads to contradictions in policy), but it will return – as it is overwhelmingly supported by the international corporations (such as Comcast, which owns NBC television, and Disney – but also basically all the rest of the ESG and DEI crowd, which are backed by the Credit Bubble banks who are, in turn, backed by the Central Banks).

    The “mainstream” media and government security bureaucracy (such as the FBI – the political police, or secret police) do NOT go after the sexual mutilation of children or the indoctrination of children in the (utterly evil) education system – on the contrary, they go after people who oppose this.

    The idea that this will be restricted to the United States is quite mistaken – it is very much an international agenda of the “educated”.

    Again, the People’s Republic of China dictatorship supports all this in-the-West, but most certainly not in China.

    It wants the West to be more extreme than China – because it wishes to destroy the West.

    But even if the People’s Republic of China Dictatorship did not exist – the “educated” in the West would carry on their work of destroying the West.

    No wonderful new society will emerge from the ashes of Western Civilisation (as the “educated” mistakenly believe) – all there will be is ashes, if they succeed in their task.

  • Paul Marks

    The skill of Western “Woke” propaganda should not be underestimated.

    For example, in spite of the crude efforts of the Putin regime to glamorise them, few Russians really admire or trust the Secret Police. The same is true in the People’s Republic of China – ordinary Chinese rightly fear the Secret Police, but they do not admire them, they do not think the Secret Police are good people.

    But Americans are very skilfully indoctrinated with the idea that the Federal secret police, the FBI (a vicious and despicable organisation) is somehow good, indeed noble.

    One can hate the result of indoctrination, whilst still admiring the skill of it – and how “liberal” totalitarians in the United States have indoctrinated people (via Hollywood and television, and so on) is very skilful indeed. Although I hope the indoctrination is now breaking down – and more and more Americans are seeing the FBI and the “Justice” Department (and Federal “Justice” system) for the evil that they are.

    When large numbers of armed men turn up to arrest political opponents for imaginary “crimes” and the people are then subjected to abuse in prison and a farcical “court process”, the people doing all these things are NOT the “Good Guys”.

    Whether it is China, Russia or the United States.

    And if anyone thinks that the British police are not becoming political (perhaps Michael Taylor believes so – still thinking in terms of Dixon of Dock Green?) then I advise them to check the stuff that is being taught at Police College.

    The West is NOT dead (otherwise I would not be able to type the above), but it is dying – and I think that is a bad thing.

  • JohnK


    As you say, Bob Iger has been brought back at Disney to replace Bob Chapek.

    From what I have been reading, Chapek was quite as woke as Iger, (or had to pretend to be), but he did have a realisation that a business has to make money, and was trying to cut out various layers of woke oxygen thieves in the organisation. Iger has been brought back to put a stop to this attempt.

    I agree with you that these woke corporations have no interest in customers who do not agree with their woke agenda. There is no other reason for trying to replace the much loved figure of Indiana Jones with Phoebe Waller-Bridge. But eventually, reality will bite when their losses are too big to sustain. Black Rock et all pose as woke, but they have to care about the bottom line. So let’s see what happens as Disney goes down the toilet. It should be much more entertaining than any of their films.

  • Michael Taylor

    Paul Marks,
    Most of your latest responds to arguments I did not make, and to quote you YOU KNOW IT.

    The nub of the issue is quite clear and simple: it’s a rank-ordering disagreement.

    In you rank-ordering, Western corporate wokeism is worse than Chinese Leninist corporate statism.

    I simply disagree with the order. The issue is no more complicated than that – I simply think you’re wrong.

  • The Wobbly Guy


    Huh? A female Indiana Jones already exists in popular culture.

    Her name is Lara Croft.

    What the heck is Disney thinking?!?

  • JohnK

    Wobbly Guy:

    What are they thinking? I can’t answer that, I lack the necessary insight into the woke mind.

    I would say that it is reported that, by virtue of a time travel plot in the new film, not only does Phoebe Waller-Bridge become Indiana Jones, the Indiana Jones played by Harrison Ford is erased from history, he never existed. I suppose it is the woke equivalent of 2+2=5.

    Perhaps that is what the wokes are up to. Indiana Jones is a woman. Indian Jones was always a woman. That could be it. They could have given Indiana Jones a female equivalent, but that would not do. The male Indiana Jones had to be erased. He was never a man, it never happened.

    I do not know if the likes of Iger and Chapek believe any of this, or, perhaps more likely, they are moral cowards who simply bend to the woke will in order to be paid tens of millions of dollars. It scarcely matters, the results are the same. I am just looking forward to the day Disney goes out of business.

  • Paul Marks

    Michael Taylor – you deliberately misrepresent my position.

    You are liar Sir.

  • Paul Marks


    Bob Chapek tried to drag Disney back from the Frankfurt School, Critical Theory, “Woke” Marxism that was considered too toxic even by the People’s Republic of China dictatorship (not too toxic for the West – where the PRC encourages it, as part of its campaign to destroy the West, too toxic for the domestic Chinese market – where Disney hoped to profit), but he seemed to lack the moral courage to denounce it, instead he tried to dodge the issue – present an apolitical line.

    That was never going to work, one cannot avoid a conflict with evil (and this stuff is evil) – one has to fight the evil head-on, and Mr Chapek would not do that. So, he lost by default.

    One cannot beat something with nothing – as Ayn Rand put it about the Russian Civil War (which the lady lived through) “The Reds believed in plundering and rule by terror, and the Whites believed in nothing – so the Reds won” – the Frankfurt School “Critical Theory” belief system has to be countered in the Realm of Ideas, and Bob Chapek (the “practical man”) just was not intellectually equipped to do that.

    We do not face a “Leninist” economic policy – we face a Saint-Simonist or Mussolini style Fascist policy – China is not Leninist, it is Fascist in its system, with Marxist flags draped over its Fascism, over its Public-Private Partnership, its “Stakeholder Capitalism”.

    The question is, will the West become fully Fascist – as the People’s Republic of China already is.

    Or will there be a roll back of Fascism – of “public-private partnership” “Stakeholder Capitalism” and the other euphemisms that are used for Fascism, for a Mussolini or Dr Schwab (World Economic Forum or Agenda 2030) style Corporate State.

    The turning off of the flow of Credit Money is key to defeating Fascism – presently, via such things as the ESG (Environment and Social Governance) agenda, Credit Money (created from nothing) flows into Corporations on the basis of these political priorities.

    If Fascism is to be defeated – this flow of Credit Money to the Corporations (via the Credit Bubble banks – who are in no way honest money lenders dealing in Real Savings, the actual sacrifice of consumption) must be ended.

    Otherwise, the transformation of what is left of the West into a PRC Social Credit Fascist system will continue.

    That is economic policy – how to try and prevent the total transformation of the West into a Corporate State “public-private partnership” Fascist system (which China already is). But there is also Social Policy – and it is quite true to say that the DEI (Diversity, Equity and Inclusion) agenda is so extreme, so destructive, that it is not even pushed in the People’s Republic of China – indeed the PRC pushes this agenda in the West (as part of its campaign to destroy the West).

    Someone like Bob Chapek has no idea what the DEI agenda really is (what it is about) and so thought he could pay lip service to it – and get on with returning to Disney to sanity.

    It does not work that way – the DEI agenda has to be rejected, and to argue against it requires a clear understanding of what it is. That it comes from “Critical Theory” which, in turn, comes from Frankfurt School Marxism.

    Frankfurt School Marxism, the late Herbert Marcuse and the others, is a weapon – it was not tolerated in the Soviet Union or China precisely because it is a weapon to undermine (to destroy) the society it is in.

    There cannot, in the long term, be a “Frankfurt School system” in the West – as Frankfurt School ideas are not a “system” for the long term, they are a disease, or a poison, designed to kill society.

    We, here, all know this (including Michael Taylor – who pretends he does not know) – such things as “mathematics is racist” or “Trans Rights for children” (and the rest of the Diversity agenda) is not a long-term system, it is a weapon (a toxin – poison) deployed to undermine and destroy a society.

    Of course, the dictatorship in China, does not wish to deploy this weapon against China (a country it already controls – why would it want to destroy a country it already controls), they support the use of this weapon against countries such as the United States and the United Kingdom.

    However, this is not just an external attack – due to the “Progressive” stranglehold on the education system, even if the People’s Republic of China vanished right now, policy in the West (the poisoning, the murder, of the West) would continue – pushed by the “educated”.

    To repeat yet again – the DEI agenda (“mathematics is racist”, “science is racist”, the sexual mutilation of children, and-so-on) is not a system, it cannot be compared to systems such as the Fascist economic system in the People’s Republic of China (China was indeed “Leninist” under Mao – but it rejected that economic system as long ago as 1978). The DEI (“Diversity, Equity and Inclusion”) agenda is a toxin, a poison, a weapon designed to destroy the society it is deployed against.

    I do not believe Bob Chapek, even now, understands that – but no one on this site has any excuse for not understanding this basic fact, it has been explained many times over a long period of time.

    “But Paul – the Biden/Harris Administration in the United States fanatically supports the DEI agenda”.

    There is no “but” – of course the Biden/Harris Administration, which is really controlled by Mr Obama and his associates, supports the DEI agenda – and the people who at the heart of that understand fully what the DEI agenda is designed to do to American (indeed Western) society. They understand that it is designed to destroy society.

  • Paul Marks

    The policy of the Biden/Harris Administration, which is controlled by Mr Obama and his associates, can be summed up in four words – “death to the West”.

    That is why it is folly for people who do not share this policy objective to try and “work with” them.

  • Paul Marks

    As I mentioned the sexual mutilation of children in the second paragraph of the very first comment I made on this thread, no honest person can have had any doubt about what I was writing about.

    Of course, the Fascist Dictatorship in China (this “Stakeholder Capitalism” “public-private partnership” under the cover of Marxist banners) does not wish to deploy the DEI (Diversity, Equity and Inclusion) weapon against China (a country it already controls) – it wishes to deploy this weapon against the West. The problem is that many of the “educated” in the West also wish to deploy this weapon (indeed are doing so) in order to destroy Western society (“mathematics is racist”, “science is racist”, “decolonise history”, “Trans rights for children”) – and would do so, even if the Peoples’ Republic of China vanished.

  • Michael Taylor

    Paul Marks,
    It is not nice to be called a liar. If in fact you don’t regard western wokery as worse/more damaging than Chinese Leninist corporate domination then you have a strange way of disguising it.

    Well, it’s your site and you can slime and insult anyone you please. I just regard your whole tantrum as very odd. Though revealing. I’m happy to accept an apology. Rgds

  • Thomas Fairfax

    Well, it’s your site…

    No, samizdata is absolutely not Paul’s site 😀

  • Paul Marks

    Mr Taylor, I have explained, at great length, what Frankfurt School Critical Theory “Woke” Marixsm is – it is a weapon for the destruction of society (it is not a “system” because it cannot last – indeed it is not intended to last). Of course, the Chinese dictatorship does NOT want to use this weapon against China – and, also of course, it supports its use against the West.

    As for the People’s Republic of China – a country cannot be”Leninist” and “Corporatist” in its economic and social system at-the-same time. One could argue that China has a Leninist political system, but it most certainly does not have a Leninist economic and social system – and Mussolini also had a political dictatorship, with party cells in enterprises (and-so-on).

    China has a Fascist Corporatist system (not a Leninist economic and social system, which cannot be corporatist, – it has not had that for more than 40 years) – and this is the model that the international establishment wish to impose on the West, that was in the first paragraph of my first comment. So, Mr Taylor, you are either incredibly stupid and ignorant or you are liar Sir. And I believe that the latter alternative is correct – i.e. that you are a liar Sir.

    Lastly on China, I grimly remember a stupid BBC girl saying in 1989 that the Chinese government would not crack down on the pro-democracy students because “China is not a Fascist country”.

    Even in 1989 that BBC person was very stupid indeed not to understand that China is a Fascist country – both in its economic and social system (one of public-private partnership – “Stakeholder Capitalism”).

    But I was willing to give that BBC person the benefit of the doubt – after all China had only been Fascist (as opposed to Maoist economically) for about ten years in 1989. The BBC person was ignorant – but honest, you are not being honest Sir.

    No one should give you the benefit of the doubt Mr Taylor – not in 2022. You know perfectly well the People’s Republic of China is (Fascist – under its Marxist banners), and you know that this is the economic and social system that the international establishment is trying to impose on the West, or what little is left of the West.

  • Paul Marks

    “Leninist corporate” – as if an economic and social system can be Leninist and Corporatist at-the-same-time. Politically both Lenin and Mussolini practiced dictatorship – but their economic systems were distinct.

    Modern China (not China under Mao – China now) follows the later system – Fascism (under its Marxist banners) – and this is also the system, public-private partnership – Stakeholder Capitalism, that the international establishment wish to impose on the rest of the world – ESG (Environment and Social Governance) Social Credit system and all.

    As for “Wokness” – this is a poison, or deadly disease, not a system. Herbert Marcuse and the other people who created it, never intended it to be a system – it is a weapon, a weapon to destroy the society it is deployed against.

    “China does not practice Diversity, Equity and Inclusion” – no, and the dictator of China (very much a Mussolini like figure) does not shoot himself in the head either.

    The dictator of China is an evil man – but he does not wish to destroy the country of which he is the dictator (any more than Mussolini wished to destroy Italy – the country he was dictator of) DEI is a weapon – a weapon to destroy the society it is deployed against.

    “Mathematics is racist”, “science is racist”, “Trans rights for children – gender affirming surgery now!” is not a “social system” any more than a bullet in the head, or drinking a large glass of potassium cyanide, is a social system.

    This is not “the system of the West” because it cannot be the system of anywhere – it is death.

  • Michael Taylor

    Mr Marks, you choose to insult me yet again. Well, this time about my interpretation of what China’s system of governance actually is. Without wishing to pull rank, I doubt you have the sustained close-up experience that I do. It starts with my friends personally in the square in Beijing on June 6 1989. It continues through personally being involved in witnessing Deng’s Southetn tour of 1992, writing a chapter for OUP’x history of late Hong Kong, heading up HK/Asia economic research for major investors for over a decade, talks with China govt officials up to ministry level etc. Etc. I may be wrong, but my observation about the Leninist structure pursued by the CCP is founded in a considerable experience. If you choose to belittle that, it is your choice. Going though all that, and more, Ive been insulted by better people than you. Regards.

  • Snorri Godhi

    3 days ago, Michael Taylor wrote:

    In you rank-ordering, Western corporate wokeism is worse than Chinese Leninist corporate statism.

    I simply disagree with the order. The issue is no more complicated than that – I simply think you’re wrong.

    I am a bit late in replying, but since the comment was not addressed to me, i think that i can be excused.

    Without necessarily endorsing what Paul Marks wrote (most of which i did not read anyway: life is too short…) I submit that a rank-ordering is not appropriate here.

    Would i rather move to China, or back to the US or UK? There is no doubt that i’d choose the latter (but only if i had to).

    But is that because the Chinese-establishment ideology is worse than Wokeness? I submit that, no, the Xi ideology is no worse, and arguably less insane, than Wokeness.

    What make the US and UK better (or: less bad) places to live, are their constitutions, written and unwritten. The Woke should be grateful for such limits to their power: they should keep in mind that revolutions devour their own.
    (Not just in the West: typically, Chinese dynasties collapsed due to revolts by peasants-turned-brigands; but, usually, the original rebel leaders were replaced and murdered even before the collapse of the dynasty.)

  • Michael Taylor

    Snorri, you make a good point, and without insulting me, which is nice. One of the reasons I’m comparatively less bothered by wokery than Mr Marks is that like most revolutions, the revolutionaries and their audiences pretty soon run out of energy. Being hostile and obnoxious yo everyone is, after all, an exhausting pose to sustain. So it fritters out – indeed I think this is already beginning. An entrenched Leninist party in control, on the other hand, has aligned all incentive structures to support them, knackered or not. Still, just my view, not Eternal Truth.

  • Mr Taylor, I have explained, at great length, … (Paul Marks, November 25, 2022 at 5:12 pm

    The great length might be part of the problem, Paul. 🙂

    (Though I, Niall-prolix-Kilmartin, say it as shouldn’t. 🙂 )

    More generally, a state of pure unqualified Frankfurt-school-of-Marxism might indeed be worse than the real state of Xi’s China, since Xi needs China to continue functioning. However if I woke up tomorrow to find myself a citizen of Xi’s China, I’d think myself much worse off than I am as Niall Kilmartin, citizen of a UK under attack by FSOM but still retaining many many pluralist elements from a past free-er than China has ever yet known.