I have read more about the Che and flag incident in the Houston Obama office today and my biggest concern over this affair now is the poor woman who was to ‘blame’ for it. We really have to be careful in the blogger world about building mountains out of molehills and using verbiage to turn neighbors into ideological enemies.
From what I have read via Little Green Footballs, I see someone very much like many close and dear friends of mine. People who I disagree with but whom are nonetheless good people with whom you would not at all be averse to spending an evening arguing ideas over some good wine.
She did something really dumb and probably never even considered setting up ‘her space’ with a familiar and comfortable decoration would actually mean something in the real world. Many people spend much of their lives without learning that lesson and are surprised when it happens. She possibly managed some minor and unintentional damage to her favoured candidate and in punishment is cowering in her home in fear of all those hateful people who are sending venom her way.
This is certainly not the Samizdata way as you all well know. Ideas can and should be argued… but one must recognize the humanity and very often the basic decency of the people you disagree with.
I sincerely hope her McLuhan fame is soon over so she can get back to her normal life.
PS: I have intentionally not mentioned her name or given a link.
My initial reaction was to assume this was someone who had swallowed the Che myth hook line and sinker.
With the majority of media about Che it is very easy to do.
I am happy with the idea she meant no offence, but I really have little sympathy.
Sorry, but RAH put it best – “Stupidity is a capital offence”.
Had it been a Nazi flag would you be quite so forgiving?
She may well have meant it as a badge of identity, a mark specifiying the group of cool young people she once hung out with. She may even intended it to ‘offend’ in the same sense I would if I were to stick an American flag in my window in the flats I am in here in Belfast. That is not to make the comparable in any way other than that they are symbols by which she or I find identity.
Hell, when I was a college radical I went around with a really big Vive Che button on my biker vest. We had a Tanya Welcome Here poster on our front door when I was in grad school. I outgrew it. Some people didn’t. I don’t hate them for it.
If you have friends like this woman, it is best to engage them as friends and point out what Che was like and how the reality of him differs from the romanticism.
As another example, a woman who is a very old and very dear friend once acted as a translater for Daniel Ortega when he was in Ireland and was apparently quite taken with his swashbuckle. What that changes about my feelings for that person is a big zero. I simply do not let ideology dominate my life. People are what matter to me… and if you love ideas it is much better to start with people as people to convince them of your ideas than it is to treat them as ideological constructs whose complex and partially irrational human nature is somehow compressable into a meaningless dogma or two.
That’s all well and fine, but those of us who fully believe that within the next decade or two there is going to be a MAJOR reckoning of economic and political fictions against hard reality, wherein casual dinner parties and polemics aren’t quite the style. People are following Obama like he is a rock star and he has little or no real record behind him. Until a few years ago he was a chump nobody in Illinois. He became somebody because vacuous, stupid housewives have made something out of nothing. And if they don’t have the good sense to understand what they are doing, someone certainly needs to tell them.
And perhaps the time for gentle arguments over a bottle of white wine are quickly coming to a close. It’s not my fault. It is the fault of the people who have blindly and unthinkingly unleashed a $3,000,000,000,000 per year leviathan with a $50,000,000,000,000 accrual debt backing people who are not only not trying to solve the problem but will only make it worse. All this with ever shrinking personal freedoms. In THIS reality perhaps people ought not be cavalier. In the business of taking of 50% of persons labor and gunning for quite a bit more, even the low level grunts need to be VERY careful what they project. The stakes are getting way too high.
Perhaps it’s just too much for those of us who have half our labor taken as is, with threadbare rationed goods in return, with the heartwarming prospect that this is only the beginning, to see someone tossing around a Che emblem. If she set herself up as the poster child of all that is wrong, she should wisen up.
And I forgot to mention- the “human” side? What was the other side made up of – robots? ALL of this is about humanism. Those who want to be left alone and those who casually toss around brute force and have lost the sense or sensitivity that they are doing so.
And maybe chilling the hell out will help, while posturing about how eeeeevil they are for putting up Cuban flags and how it’s “too much” for you that they put up those flags, won’t help to de-escalate things.
I realize that de-escalation isn’t as fun as going up into the mountains by Colorado Springs and yelling “WOLVERINES!” at every passing aircraft, but I’m a little tired of looking at people who were killed over stupid asinine crap.
I’ll concede that anybody who puts up a Cuban flag with Ernesto Guevara’s picture on it, without expecting nasty remarks, is probably an idiot. But stamping your feet and screaming about “it’s just too much …to see someone tossing around a Che emblem” is not much improvement.
“Stupidity is a capital offence”.
I’m sure you have put your affairs in order then….
Would I be as forgiving of a swastika? Certainly. There are cultures where the symbol is still not considered offensive. If I had good reason to believe a newly arrived Indian imigrant was not aware of the huge cultural significance of the Swastika in the West, I would not be at all offended to see him unwittingly hanging one (or indeed several).
This woman clearly came from a culture (let’s called it “Western left-liberal”) where the symbol called “Che” is not offensive. I have no problem with her not offending the members of her culture.
Perhaps the coverage of her choice of symbology prompted her to do a bit more research into this particular mass-murderer?
One can hope.
Among other things, Brad says:
“The consumer is not a moron. She is your wife.”
—— David Ogilvy
Sunfish,
It simply stands that we are on the brink. The time is coming relatively soon for a period where civil order cannot be maintained. But there is still time to stop it. It is bad enough that this particular person does not support a candidate who would set about stopping it and reverse course before it is too late, but instead supports the candidate most likely to make it infinitely worse. But what makes it unacceptable is being so much an idiot as to bring Che into the discussion. SHE is the one who brought not delightful casuistry to the table, but radicalism and revolution. Well, the revolution ain’t going to be about Che, it’s going to be about people who are already being taxed 45+% of their labor and have $400,000 more liened upon (significantly more than most people have saved by a long shot), and that’s without her wonderful notions of how things ought to be tossed in, through the Second Coming -Obama. As it stands now, the national accrual basis debt is more than the estimated personal wealth of every last person in the US.
Perhaps I wouldn’t be so very concerned, but Obama, who more than likely will be our next President, isn’t a sound candidate by any stretch of the imagination. His support is almost cult like. He has no record worth speaking of, he simply is the newest embodiment and conduit for the masses quasi-religious fervor. Of ALL the candidates he is the least qualified and the most dangerous. Perhaps right there is a sign that we are on the brink. Instead of reasonable men like Fred Thompson, or even less reasonable but mostly correct men like Ron Paul getting much notice at all, we have Obama as the most likely person to be our next President.
And this at a time of crisis – correctly portrayed by Comptroller General Walker a few years ago that –
“Continuing on this unsustainable path will gradually erode, if not suddenly damage, our economy, our standard of living, and ultimately our national security.”
THAT is what I am talking about. Not some major recession or even depression, but a “sudden” damage or economy and our security. I don’t know about you, but given the level of this report, given to Congress and the President, so certainly no time for histrionics, this is a VERY powerful statement. We’re not talking about some sort of downturn, we’re talking about something that very well will tear the country apart. The stakes, again, are just too high. And the tolerance of nabobbery is one thing, but dangerous stupidity is another.
Lastly, it is always charming how those who disagree with another libertarian always sort them away into the “mountain man” reactionary category. Be secure in knowing that there are some of us, men of business, perhaps CFO’s of multi-million dollar corporations, who can read, perhaps something along the lines of the Financial Report of the United States Government, who have read more than a little of American History, and European History, who have made some (albeit amateur) study of the signs that fronted the major bloodlettings of the last hew centuries, and perhaps have very grave concerns of the amalgam we have today.
>>Would I be as forgiving of a swastika? Certainly. There are cultures where the symbol is still not considered offensive<< What if it was a red flag with a white circle with swastika in it and a picture of rudalph Hess? I agree this is getting over blown, but one the otherhand it IS frightening that a supportert of a major candidate for the presidentcy is acting in the way she did.
“Would I be as forgiving of a swastika? Certainly.”
(yawn) Whoever gave you your diploma cheated you…….ask if you can get your quarter back.
I wasn’t aware I mentioned a swastika……I think I wrote “Nazi flag”…….you do know the difference don’t you?
Anyway……..this is the best photo I’ve seen of Che:
http://www.blackfive.net/photos/uncategorized/2007/10/08/chesoldiers.jpg
Samizdata sticking up for Che supporters “because they’re human”… both funny, and sad.
Dale, is your point that hounding this campaign worker is wrong (if not simply bad tactics)?
In that limited sense I agree with you, but this situation is not simply a matter of her choice. For one thing, there were *two* flags with Che’s smug mug at Houston HQ.
Let’s add up a few of the debits: Barack Hussein Obama won’t wear an American flag pin; he abstains from the typical hand-over-heart
gesture of respect for the flag at the playing of the National Anthem; and now this glimpse of his campaign culture.
I’m sorry if she’s catching hell. Intimidation and disrespect are ugly. But sometimes, disrespect has a handsome face.
By the way, “J” –
“This woman clearly came from a culture… where the symbol called “Che” is not offensive. I have no problem with her not offending the members of her culture.”
How earnest of you. You certainly wouldn’t have a problem with KKK ex-Grand Wizard David Duke, on that score. But neither would you choose to oppose him on those grounds either.
But Barack Hussein Obama is a more clever practitioner of such obfuscation. He’s never, to my knowledge, kept his hands folded during the Pledge of Allegiance, only during the playing of the National Anthem. The first would be a violation of the Flag Code; the second, merely a deliberate violation of American cultural custom.
And that, folks, is the trick to offending cultures: first, you must pick the right culture to offend.
PS: I have intentionally not mentioned her name or given a link.
You know, I agree with you. None of the venomous bloggers would be willing to take the time to face her in Real Life and deliver their tirades. They take the easy way out, from behind a screen. I realize that this is a common comment about the ‘sphere, but it is true. I do hope that she realizes that not only is he a mass-murderer, but also violated the Hippocratic oath as a doctor. “First, do no harm” indeed.
Dale’s attitude reminds me of E.M. Forster’s Rowan Williams like feel good dictum – if I had to choose between my friend and my country, I’d choose my friend. Surely the choice depends on the circumstances and if the woman in question likes cute curls and designer berets more than decency and integrity so be it.
It is amazing what is acceptable in politically correct society, and what is not.
Some years ago, a lithesome young lady I worked with was given a tasteful lingerie calendar by one of the high-end stores where she shopped at lunchtime. Bright young thing promptly hung it behind her desk. The first HR person (also female, though very much plainer) who passed by ordered her to take down the calendar — it was “creating a hostile work environment” (presumably for those less blessed in the looks department).
But a flag celebrating a murderer does not create a “hostile environment”?
Now what if it had been a beefcake picture of murdering ol’ Che?
“This woman clearly came from a culture… where the symbol called “Che” is not offensive. I have no problem with her not offending the members of her culture.”
If any culture where the mass-murder of children is acceptable still exists, then it is high time that culture was stamped out.
I’m actually quite glad she put the flag up, and that it was noticed.
It’s extremely indicative of the beliefs (and ignorance) of the people fervently (and yes, volunteering to be an activist campaigner for the candidate qualifies as ‘fervent’) backing Obama, the man described by a contemporary of his from the Illinois state house as having political views “to the left of Mao”.
It is one thing to forgive the overly bright-eyed their idiocy, as there is really nothing that any of us here, participating in an on-line forum from afar, can actually do to disabuse the woman of whatever beliefs she has that allowed her to think that putting up the flag of one of the remaining hard-core communist regimes on the planet, adorned with the visage of that country’s counterpart to Lavrenti Beria is just fine.
That being said, I’ve almost completely resigned myself to the apparent fact that it’s going to take a bitter dose of letting the modern day carriers of the torch of the socialist ideal, in the form of either Obama or Hillary, get what they want most – their hands on the levers of power – to present the kind of lesson not experienced by the general public since the days of Jimmy Carter to strip the bloom from the shallow rhetorical rose that those without a grasp of even fairly recent history, nor the analytical cognitive skills to realize just exactly how dysfunctional the populist utopian ideal really is in practical application.
The only faint hope that I hang onto is that the lesson will not include either a pointed mass casualty (north of 10,000 souls) event, nor the employment of nuclear devices (by either the Iranians, the North Koreans, or the Islamists likely to take power in Pakistan when the pressure to ‘take the moral high road’ pulls the rug out from under Musharraf, not unlike Carter did to the Shah).
As much as I really, really like the idea of such useful idiots living out their insulated, fairy tale existences without consequence for their utter and inane self perpetuating stupidities, and being completely left unmolested with their life’s arc completed naturally with their bubble of idealism never once burst – if I was a bettin man, I wouldn’t put a single dollar, euro or even drachma on such a thing over the next 20 years, given the direction events seem to be trending overall lately.
Probably overly cynical, to be sure, and I hope I’m wrong/ I’d so love to be wrong.
Comment on the way – once it becomes un-smitten. Or un-smote. Or whatever.
This was someone’s office. Her own space, filled with her own stuff, and not all of it was emblematic of her candidate. When do the reporters from The Nation or Mother Jones get to go into every Republican candidates’ campaign offices? This is so stupid and overblown. I think it’s stupid that this woman had a Che flag. And I think it would be stupid if someone working at another campaign office had some unfortunate items (like an old Ron Paul newsletter, for instance, or a Confederate battle flag?) This says very little about most of the supporters of a candidate, and less about the candidate himself.
Mountains and molehills and cowards making anonymous threats. This woman isn’t a twelve-year-old boy with medical bills, but this situation is getting similar to that earlier overreaction.
As to the Nazi flag question: this wasn’t a Nazi flag. This was an iconic image of a revolutionary, and though it’s not the kind of decor I favor, it’s not even similar to Nazi imagery. But, even though that comparison is greatly flawed, I’d have to say that I don’t care what a campaign worker has on a wall unless the candidate supports it. If Obama had signed the flag, I’d be horrified and this would be a valid big story. But since Obama hasn’t such a flag in his office or at his campaign stops, I assume he’s not a big Che supporter (or even a small one.)
And wm, has that lack of respect for the National Anthem been repeated? I know it happened once (or at least long enough for a photo,) but is it a pattern? If so, maybe that’s important. If not, get over it. As for the flag pin, who gives a flying fuck? Sometimes it just might be possible to not wear a symbol that has become sullied (as our flag has, in the eyes of many,) and still be patriotic. I stopped flying my flag some time ago when I didn’t feel pride. My happiness and flag-flying desires come and go. Does that make me a bad American? At least I own a flag, which is more than most can say. I’d rather fly a copy of the Constitution, but I haven’t found a weatherproof one.
Maybe this woman needs to be congratulated. She showed everybody Obama’s true colors.
Of course she is stupid. She didn’t understand what she was doing. But she did a service to humanity: she revealed, explicitly, what Obama and his camp truly stand for – which they try to hide behind empty “change” rhetoric.
Which is: in the best of cases: stupidity, in the worst – leftist totalitarianism.
I think not…………..or was it in her own home?
As a schoolboy in the early 30s I had a Nazi flag in my locker. It didn’t last long. I saw the first pictures of Dachau. But some folk just don’t grow up. Pity.
Here’s some local background:
http://tinyurl.com/3yeqno
wm:
I think you’d have to be really naive to believe that anyone could reach the top level of politics in the U.S. (or any other modern democratic country) without being cynical (among other things) about patriotism and the related symbolism — and adjusting his public attitude only according to what will look best to his target voters.
Personally, I consider excessive public displays of national symbols as more than a bit trashy and tacky. Whatever the rest of Obama’s views might be, I agree with his stated attitude on the particular flag pin issue.
Thank you, ‘who,me’, for the very revealing link.
I was beginning to feel a twinge of sympathy for this harridan who is patently not ‘stupid’ in the generally accepted sense.
Dale Amon wrote, at the beginning:
……….I cannot think why not.
It would appear that this ‘immerlatina’ harpy is bordering (only) on traitorously smart. First plane to Havana.
Ivan writes, inter alia:
Yep….that’s the general attitude in the UK too & I’m sure you’re very envious of us.
I often disagree with things American but have always admired their pride in their country & their unashamed willingness to express it. So it also used to be in The Septic Isle………….see you in the midden.
SORRY……..Ivan writes:
Personally, I consider excessive public displays of national symbols as more than a bit trashy and tacky.
One more from jon:
“..has that lack of respect for the National Anthem been repeated?”
Astonishing. You don’t deny that it *was* disrespect.
***
Ivan comments:
“Personally, I consider excessive public displays of national symbols as more than a bit trashy and tacky.”
Ok, I can take your point there. Perhaps from this view, Sen. Obama appears to be a heroic figure, standing against a universe of corrupt and/or flawed symbols?
I don’t agree with that POV, I simply ask to understand how it is that our Illinois Senator seems so wildly popular.
“…you’d have to be really naive to believe that anyone could reach the top level of politics in the U.S. … without being cynical (among other things) about patriotism and the related symbolism”
Or, perhaps, about *rejecting* such symbolism?
There’s a voice missing from this discussion…the people whose families were killed by Che:
http://www.babalublog.com/archives/007392.html
who, me?,
Thank you.
If that is the woman, a Cuban American who is politically involved, then she knew exactly what she was doing, wasn’t just an idiot, and deserves every bit of vitriol thrown her way.
Anyone who truly admires Che has declared themselves to be an enemy of all I value.
It’s the old familiar story…One has a freesociety which offers asylum/protection to those needy folk fortunate enough to join it. Some of these ‘poor & oppressed’ arrive on our welcoming shores with veritable rafts of completely unacceptable cultural/religious/politcal baggage which they are loth to ditch for the better life they have achieved and, parodixically, attempt to insinuate it into the established ‘way-of-life’ of their naïve adopted country….become an irreplaceable parasite in the lefty group of their choice…and pursue mayhem to the justified anger of the natives whom Capt. Cook would tell you you should definitely refrain from upsetting.
On a lighter note; I was once charged with improving the English of a very pleasant & humourous Russian Airport Manager in Frankfurt. As he was, unusually, accompanied by his wife & children it was not wrong to assume that our Comrade was also a classmate of Vlad the Cad……He produced a ghastly english translation for my approval. I told him, “Gospodin, not on. You cant do that here.”……Through the finest complete set of gold teeth I have ever encountered he smiled (radiantly you can be sure)….”Why not? It’s a free country, isn’t it?
The following week he didn’t show….so I phoned Aeroflot because I was owed money & where was he.
Aeroflot said they had never heared of him,,,,and sent me the money for which I had asked.
permanentexpat:
Well, I understand that you might feel that way if you’re from a country whose intellectual climate has been infected to a large degree by the sort of pathological hatred towards Western culture that is nowadays fashionable in certain highly influential intellectual circles. However, I come from a place (former Yugoslavia, in case anyone is curious) where I’ve had the opportunity to observe first-hand how quickly and easily national pride can turn into violent and bloodthirsty chauvinism.
After all, pride in one’s country is an irrational collectivist sentiment, and like any other collectivist sentiment, it can easily lead to very nasty consequences. Admittedly, such collectivism is much less dangerous than usual in a nation founded on a non-nationalist ideology like the U.S. or in an insular nation such as Britain (which is also, unlike most modern states, an ancient kingdom, rather than a product of more recent nationalist movements). But in most places and times, it’s among the most dangerous and virulent memes.
Now you’ll probably think that I’m sounding like a leftie :-), but the important difference is that I’m not using the above argument as a prelude to an attempt to sell some other brand of collectivism.
wm:
Brad:
Those two sentences are so cute together. No time for histrionics, but the world is ending?
If nabobbery is to be tolerated but “dangerous stupidity” is something else, then what do you suggest as a cure for dangerous stupidity?
Um, I’m the guy who lives in the mountains with a bunch of guns and a complete set of the Foxfire books(Link), remember?
I’m never secure when I’m asked to trust “men of business” and “CFO’s of multimillion dollar corporations.” Governments are untrustworthy, but C*O’s of large businesses are scarcely more so.
In my three decades on this rock, the world has been scheduled to end at least three times. It has failed to do so on all three occasions. I may keep a crapload of ammunition and canned Hormel Chili in my wine cellar along with the finest in domestic screw-top reds, but you will understand if I decline to join in the “OH TEH NOES!!11!ONE! p34|< 0i1" hysteria, or whatever we're being hysterical about right now.
I am ambivalent on this one. On the one hand, I tend to favor Dale’s approach, and put real live individuals above (or apart from) ideology whenever possible. Otherwise I would have to go live alone in a cave somewhere. On the other hand, this woman grew up in Cuba, for god’s sake, so her putting up this flag in her office seems a bit too much to take lightly.
I guess what I mean is that if she was a friend of mine, and was not Cuban, I would just point out to her that she may have a gap in her history education. But seeing as she is actually from Cuba, I might seriously re-think my friendship with her.
Ivan:
“I think that they are all equally cynical, and adjust their publicly expressed attitudes towards whatever they (or their advisers) think will get the job done…”
I believe your point is that we should be as critical of the motives of flag-wavers as “flag-deniers.” On its face that is sensible… but…
Barack Hussein Obama has kept a pretty high tone in his campaign. He’s not opened himself up to the kind of low tactics that cost Hillary so dearly among blacks in South Carolina. This guy is playing a professional game.
And I cannot imagine that anything he does in the public eye is anything other than deliberate.
I don’t doubt that he’ll do his honest best to carry out whatever mandate he feels he’s been given, if he gets elected. Politicians have to live with themselves too, and Obama’s “change and hope” message will obligate him to make those ideals happen, somehow. He need not be an idealist himself, to present himself as one.
But this obligates him to folks who will expect – what – of him? Folks who don’t believe in the flag, apple pie and liberty through a balance of institutions – what do they believe?
I wouldn’t envy Sen. Obama’s task, should he become known as President Obama.
The political base he appealed to, standing as he did with folded hands
at the playing of the Star Spangled Banner – what do they believe? And can anyone give it to them?
And once obligated to that base, would a President Obama be permitted by them to do what’s necessary to give them what they demand?
I still don’t see the big deal about him not wearing a flag pin or saying the Inanimate Object Loyalty Oath.
Pretty much every politician who does, is doing so in order to play to an audience. Among the empty holsters presently running for President, I don’t think there’s a sincere motivation behind any action of any of the lot. That Obama has chosen not to play that particular cynical head game isn’t really a point against him.
Shouldn’t we be obsessing about his middle name or where he went to grade school? I mean, if we’re going to get wound up in petty irrelevant bullshit then those are more fun.
Sunfish: I think you may be missing WM’s point in the comment just before yours.
Exactly.
But the whole point is that he is still playing the same game, only for an entirely different team.
Maybe. Likely, even.
When is he not playing a game? Come to think of it, when is anyone not playing a game?
He is a politician, he is playing the game by definition.
You seem to be in a particularly reflective mood today. Go walk the dog, have a beer and shake it off!:-)
Well, after all, what’s wrong with this Latin American revolutionary? He undertook a bold mission in Central America, and much has been celebrated about the fervor of his conviction.
He was lauded in his own nation – so if the American adventurer William Walker was driven by a vision of the conquest of Central America, then who are we to object? After all, this revolutionary exponent of Manifest Destiny has been dead over a century.
***
To Sunfish et al:
Since symbols, such as the American flag, are, apparently, empty, would you be surprised if a protest erupted over a poster of William Walker in a McCain campaign office?
If such a thing happened, how would you educate the protesters that the presence of one… or two… images of this imperialist adventurer would indicate nothing meaningful about the McCain campaign?