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Probably the most famous military aircraft of all time I love the Science Museum in London, and there is another good reason to go there: it has an exhibition about the Spitfire fighter aircraft. Here is a nice review of it at the Social Affairs Unit blog.
Do not believe the nonsense about how the RAF was not essential to preventing an invasion of Britain in 1940. It was vital, and it seems morally right somehow that the aircraft that helped to nail the Luftwaffe was not just a brilliant piece of engineering, but also drop-dead gorgeous.
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I regarded that stuff about the RAF not being essential to winning the Battle of Britain as being a sad attempt by some ‘dirty-word’ academics to gain attention for themselves, at the expense of a legendary group of fighting men and women.
It seems fairly simple to me, when analyzing who won the battle–ask the question, who did most of the bleeding, and most of the dying?
Agreement about the Spitfire. Mustangs are pretty enough, but the Mustang was a low-level attack aircraft until someone had the idea to hot-rod it by dropping in a Merlin.
A Soviet designer once remarked that fighter design should have stopped with the MiG-15 and the F-86. If you know these aircraft, you can see his point. “Stopped” implies a progression, though, and the Spit is an essential milepost along the way. The match of sheer aesthetic character and the history that it made add up to an authentic classic. There’s nothing else like it in the world.
It is also worth noting that the design was created by independent civilians in anticipation of a need, rather than in response to a specification designed to steer business toward campaign contributors.
In my not very humble opinion the two most beautiful machines ever made by the hand of man are the P-51 Mustang and the Spitfire. Or if you are not an American, the Spitfire and the P-51 Mustang.
Seeing both flying together is enough to cause a strong man to faint from sheer excitement.
Indeed Gerry, and the sound, that throaty snarling growl of a Merlin engine…oh what rhapsody.
Yes, I am a bit of a propellerhead. what makes you ask? 🙂
The merits of the P-51 and the Spit duly noted I’m just more of a fan of jets – especially 50s & 60s ones… The SR-71 is awesome. My girlfriend saw a picture of one on an advert for Duxford and she thought it was a con. She said, “They can’t make things like that yet!”.
The Republic Thunderceptor was a stunner (though it never made production). I’d also mention the Thunderchief but I can’t have two Republic planes. Oh, there are so many more… Hawker Hunter, the prototype H-P Victor, The Sukhoi Berkut…
But the all time winner has to be the XB-70 Valkyrie. And one day I’ll see the only one left, in Dayton, OH.
There is a Spitfire hanging up in the Musem of Science and Industry in Chicago. You can reach out and almost touch it. Very pretty.
This pair (Spitfire and Hurricane, on the upwards side of a loop) doesn’t look bad together either.
We have a rather nice airshow here in NZ, at Wanaka, every second Easter. These photos are from this year’s event. Lots of lovely old planes, from a Bleroit to an F-111, and a particular interesting bunch of Soviet aircraft. No real Mustang, alas, but a pylon racer “Thunder” Mustang.
Bruce, the Spit in that picture shows how they almost look like a living thing compared to the Hurricane and most planes.
Nick M, I agree. For some reason this has always been one of my favorites ever since I first ‘discovered’ it.
One of my life’s dreams is to pilot a Sptifire Mk XIX from NYC to LA.
With a few loops, Immelman turns and a roll or two along the way…
But it was Hurricane that got most kills in BOB.
For my one tastes Reggianne 2005 was the most beautiful of fighters in WW2.
I read the article you pointed to and found a serious historical error. The author noted the RAF would have won the Battle of the Atlantic, had it been there.
Well, it was, and it did. Coastal patrol were sub hunters, but on the long North Atlantic run there was no air cover for a segment of the trip… until they started flying catapult launched Hurricanes from decks. The pilot would attack the target and then attempt to ditch beside his ship. Very dicey.
After a time this was followed up with small aircraft carriers which carried a few planes… and that was the end of the U-Boat’s as a weapon capable of strategic victory.
And also, one cannot mention the Spitfire without also remembering its sturdy comrade, the Hurricane. The Hurricanes tended to take out the bomber streams and the Spits tended to go for the 109’s and both did their job very well.
As to the thesis that the Royal Navy at Scapa Flow was what stopped the invasion plan… it is beyond me that a member of staff at a miliary college would not recognize the combined arms nature of Sea and Air in stopping such an invasion.
Yes, the Navy was a threat… but if the German’s had air superiority the great battleships would today be resting on the bottom of the English Channel. The Prince of Wales and the Repluse on the 10th of December, 1941, should give ample evidence of the fate which would have befallen a naked fleet in the confines of the English Channel under the unresitrcited attention of the Luftwaffe. The phrase ‘Ducks in a Barrel” comes to mind.
This is one of the many reasons why Goering *had* to neutralize the RAF before an invastion could take place. It is why “The Few” really were the saviours of this ancient land.
Midwesterner,
Ah the wasp-waisted lines of the century series area-ruled fighters! Great! Compare the F-106 to the F-102 from which it was derived. The 106 is much better looking than the Deuce and faster (reduced transonic-drag).
Ben Rich – Director, Lockheed “Skunk Works”
Kim,
Immelman’s, rolls… and lots of stops along the way for gas. The Spitfire’s one great flaw was always it’s short legs. Which is why the Mustang would get my vote – even though that’s close to treasonous. My one defence is the Mustang was initially designed for the RAF.
The initial Mustangs were crap… which was why the RAF did not go with them. It was not until they mated the Roll Royce engine with the North American air frame that they had the great aeroplane we all know and love.
The Luftwaffe of 1940 was nowhere near as potent an anti-shipping force as the Japanese in 1941. For one thing they have no air dropped torpedo deployed. And the IJA bomber attacks against Prince of Wales and Repulse caused no damage, fairly typical for level bombing against warships. So 300 odd stukas will need to outperform the 1944 USN dive bombers at Leyte Gulf, to close the channel to the RN.
And they probably would have outperformed the USN. The Luftwaffe’s pilots were highly experienced, would have been operating close to their bases (i.e. fast sortie turn around rate), against an enemy whose location was known and which offered the RN very limited room for manoeuvre (i.e. they had to be heading to where the German invasion force was, via a predictable course).
Moreover, even if the RN was successful, it would have been a one-shot deal… i.e. at the end there would have been a great deal less Royal Navy, with many years to rebuild, meaning profound implications for the conduct of the war from that point on.
And as for the Mustang vs. Spitfire issue… we’ve played that tune(Link) before a couple(Link) times.
The Battle of Britain was also important in many other ways. The massive attrition suffered by the Luftwaffe (and especially the loss of experienced airmen) must have had an effect on Barbarossa.
There was also the psychological factor of us actually inflicted a defeat against the Germans after the disasters in France and Norway. I very much doubt a phyric victory for the RN would have achieved the same thing…
And politically and morally there was also the factor that the RAF was a truly multinational force.
Even if the Navy had held the line, without the RAF the Luftwaffe would have been able to inflict even more damage on British cities – they would have been able to bomb pretty much unimpeded in daylight.
Dale,
The intial Mustangs weren’t crap entirely. They were just no good at high altitude (admittedly a big problem for a fighter). It wasn’t the Merlin specifically, it was more getting the supercharging right.
I am rather surprised that no one has yet commented, until now, on the presence of the letters “FU” on the side of the Spitfire in the picture. Better late than never.
But what does the “P” stand for?
By the way, the Chicago Spitfire my old Chicago associate M. Simon mentioned is in fact a Battle of Britain veteran. At least one of the six German planes symbolized under the canopy was shot down by a pilot from the Polish Airforce-in-exile.
Nick M,
So much derived that it was called the “F-102B” up until they decided it was too much different.
I think this is why I’m entralled with that plane. Or that 102/106 transition. I think it represents as big of a technological transition as piston/prop to jet turbines. And yet so rapid that it almost slipped by as a letter suffix.
I didn’t realize Kelly Johnson worked that way but it’s true.
As for “Kim, Immelman’s, rolls… and lots of stops along the way for gas.” I just assumed he would carry the mother of all drop tanks. Like ‘Akron’ sized. Either that or have a KC-135 for a drinking buddy.
Is the aircraft museum still at Hendon?
Midwesterner,
A KC-135 refueling a Spitfire. Now that I would pay to see.
The introduction of the area rule (roughly doubling top speeds) was a spectacular and spectacularly rapid transition. So rapid that lot’s of hitherto promising programs had to be dropped. I bet it put the cat amongst the pigeons amongst aero-engineers at the time!
It also completely changed a major aspect of air-warfare. The high-subsonic, high-altitude bomber became obsolete. Britain’s V-Bombers were obsolete in their original role before they reached IOC.
The rapidity of this advance is particularly stunning when you consider the lead-times for the current crop of fighters such as Typhoon and F-22. It wouldn’t surprise me if the children of some of the original engineers are working on the Typhoon now.
Here are Kelly Johnson’s rules for the Skunk Works
Deleted… previous banned fascist arse-wipe
Hey gents, taking nothing away from the Spitfire, but you might be interested to know that in the last, oh, decade, perhaps, the Hawker Sea Fury has come to dominate the unlimited class in air racing where traditionally it was all Mustangs and Bearcats.
See here:
http://www.airrace.org/indexJS.php
Also, see here:
http://www.airrace.org/2006ResultsDisplay.php
(input ‘unlimited’ and 2006-09-17 to get the results)
The Fury clocked over 481 MPH over the 67 mile reace. Four-Hundred Eighty One, gets.
I’ve been going to these races for years, having lived there as a kid. I actully know all the backroads, so I can get out in the sagebrush on the actual course. How about having a WWII warbird zoom 40 ft over your head at over 450 MPH? It can make your knees buckle.
Hey, here’s some utube stuff:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OqFs8Lb09h0
Here’s a good one from last year, where the Bearcat won. I happened to be in the stands for this one:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OqFs8Lb09h0
If you want to see more, and there’s a lot, go to youtube and search ‘reno air races’
Well, most of them anyway. 🙂
B-52(Link),
Speed: 650 mph, 1000 km/h (Mach 0.86)
Service ceiling: 55,773 ft (17,000 m)
In service – 1954
Retired – The Air Force intends to keep the B-52 in service until around 2050, an unprecedented length of service for a combat aircraft model (the venerable DC-3, now 70 years old, is still in regular revenue service in civilian hands). That means it is possible this plane could stay in US military service active use for a century! Wow.
It is another one of my favorite birds. Read the trivia on wiki. Some of it is a hoot. (IN HARM’s WAY!)
Thank you for the Kelly link. Straight into my bookmarks.
Perry, that wouldn’t happen. Pilots need to be trained in attacking ships to be effective (see Crete, several months later). There is also the small matter of the RN being able to slaughter the barges at night, using destroyers and smaller craft.
It would have been a combined-arms victory for the Commonwealth if Sealion had been attempted. The RAF would not have been destroyed before the invasion, as it would have pulled back to bases that LW fighters couldn’t escort to.
“And the IJA bomber attacks against Prince of Wales and Repulse caused no damage, fairly typical for level bombing against warships. So 300 odd stukas will need to outperform the 1944 USN dive bombers at Leyte Gulf, to close the channel to the RN.”
Well i have no doubts that without RAF, 300 stukas would have put RN into the bottom of the Channel.
Midwesterner,
I’m a big B-52 fan. But it did become obsolete in it’s original goal, so they found it a new one, and a new one after that… That’s a great plane, like the DC-3 you mentioned or the Hercules and very, very few others. I was dissapointed to hear that the USAF was planning on cutting the numbers of B-52s to about 58 in number.
On the subject of Boeing planes and great leaps forward I think the B-29 deserves a mention. It introduced so many concepts which are still found in aircraft today. Look at the postwar V-Bombers and the Comet which buried their engines in thicker wings to reduce drag and at the podded installation of the B-47, B-52 and 707. Now look at any modern airliner. Which approach has stood the test of time? It all started with the B-29 with those huge draggy nacelles more than made up for by the super-efficient wing. And that’s just for starters, there’s also the discovery of the jetstream, large scale hull pressurization, unheard of wing-loading, unprecedented range and a quantum leap in what was deemed to be affordable. The B-29 is the Grandpa of the commercial jet-age.
Couple that with the mission of Enola Gay and you’ve got an ultimate hate icon for the Greens
Brian:
The FU would be the Squadron code and the P is the aircraft id within that squadron. I certainly do not have these things in memory so I’d have to do considerable digging to come up with the actual squadron codes.
There were also some aircraft which wore ‘personalized’ codes. If you were a wing leader or an Ace you could be different and perhaps put your initials in as the squadron code.
Nick,
I hadn’t heard about the B-52 fleet reduction plans. THat’s nuts. They should be building more not decomming them. In these days, technology can take the place of agility and payload/distance/delivery is what it does so well.
If you ever come to Wisconsin, (aren’t you coming to the US for a honeymoon or something?) this(Link) is great to see. When I was last there, they let us wander all over the plane giving it a thorough hands on inspection of the inside. Except for the cockpit which you can stick your head into, but it is walled-off with plexi-glas. Wings and engines, you had to stand on the ground and stare up. No ladders provided.
It’s the B-29 with an even more modern configuration fused onto the back. That was an amazing piece of technology. Here’s(Link) a look at a B-29 that demonstrates you point. That really is the B-29 plarform under there. Good call.
The B-47 is something I never paid much attention to. I’ll have to look it. It is certainly a strange looking critter. Now I’m curious.
I think the 727 is my favorite recent or contemporary civil/militray airliner. I think it’s a 707 section and config with a different wing and engine layout. Cool wing. John Travolta owns a 707 he flies out of his private airport. He might be the only Hollyweird type I envy. I wonder what the Greens think of him?
Back to Johnathan’s post, does any other famous plane have those Spitfire type wings with no straight edges? That more than anything is what gives it its look.
Squadron 453(Link)
Midwesterner… also 453 Sqn RAAF. Quite interesting.
I slipped a cog (probably one of many). I saw “RAAF” and read “RAF”. D’oh. Thanks for the pointer.
I bet those guys were sure happy to switch from Buffaloes to Spitfires.
I’m assuming that the picture is of a restored airframe. (The color accuracy looks too good.) I wonder if it’s painted as original or as a sentimental restoration.
I meant to add this one straight off.
But I didn’t. If you look closely at the nose I think you can see the insignia showing it to be a Polish RAF aircraft.
Midwesterner,
I haven’t checked your links out though I will. It’s getting late and I’ve had a tough week. Getting married is a lot harder than I expected and there is always something to do or check… And that’s for a pretty simple registry office ceremony with a small number of guests. For anything more I can well see how wedding planners (other than J Lo) earn their corn.
The wedding is on the 14th (next Saturday!) and we’re flying into DC on the 16th for 5 days and then down to Key West for two weeks. The nearest I come to Wisconsin, alas, is a peculiar plane change at Pittsburgh, which seems a little random (Manchester-Pittsburgh-DC)?
I never thought about it before but Wisconsin had loads of SAC bases didn’t it? It’s making me come over all Jack D Ripper. The interior of the B-52 in Dr Strangelove was apparently based on the interior of the B-29 with a information from a few interviews and a bit of clever conjecture. It was apparently so close to the truth that Kubrick was investigated by the USAF.
I guess you know the story about the Boeing B-52 team and the balsa wood?
I’m pondering your question about the Spit’s ellipitical wing and I’m just not sure about it and too tired to think more. I don’t think it was used on any production type and I’m reasonably sure that late model Spits “borrowed” the wing from the Supermarine Spiteful. The Spit wing for all it’s aesthetic and functional glory was always difficult and expensive to make.
BTW. It’s such fun to have a Samizdata thread that doesn’t include the “M” word. It’s also good that Brits and Americans can mention Spits and Mustangs without it degenerating into an abysmal flame war over which was better. I’ve seen it get really nasty on some aviation forums. Though the Mosquito vs. P-38 debate took the biscuit…
It’s always a thrill to see (and hear) a Spitfire – that wing is truely gorgeous.
Regarding some of the points raised in the comments…
1) The Spitfire (and Hurricane) prevented the Luftwaffe from gaining the air superiority required for an invasion of Britain – no question. But it was Radar that enabled the victory – without it, they would have been climbing to meet the Me109s – and been sitting ducks.
2) The Mustang (when available as a rong range escort in early 1944) enabled the USAAF to gain air superiority over France and Germany before the D-day invasion – again, no question.
3) It was the superior design of it’s supercharger (specifically, the two stage version) that was the primary reason the Merlin was better than the Allison at high altitude – other than that, they were pretty much comparable in performance.
4) However, the above was only possible with the development and mass production of high octane fuels. So, to a large extent, the Spitfire and Mustang owe their success not so much to the aeronautical and mechanical engineers that designed them – but to the chemical engineers that filled their tanks.
The Spitfire vs Mustang argument is really an apples vs oranges situation. The Spitfire was a better defensive fighter – while the Mustange was a better offensive one. We were lucky we had both.
Britain’s V-Bombers had a much higher ceiling than the B-52. At the heights and speeds they operated they could easily out-manoeuvre any Russian fighter sent to intercept them. It was the advent of SAMs that forced them down to treetop heights – not the MIGs.
For anyone interested in aircraft museums – the USAF one in Dayton should be at the top of your list. While the B-70 is the most spectacular exhibit – the B-36 isn’t far behind…as is the 40,000lb Mk17 Hydrogen bomb displayed next to it!
Of course the RAF won the Battle of Britain. However they didn’t save Britain from invasion – so long as the RN was in existence an invasion would still have been impossible, naval superiority was simply too overwhelming. Air superiority was an essential precondition for a German invasion, but in no sense was it a sufficient one. And for those who claim the Luftwaffe would have sufficed to keep the navy at bay, consider this – during the two weeks of the Dunkirk evacuation, 39 RN destroyers were involved, in what was in many respects an ideal environment for the Luftwaffe – long periods stationary whilst embarking, only limited defensive air cover, and so on. Do you know how many destroyers the Luftwaffe actually managed to sink in the fortnight or so of the evacuation? Four. Almost exactly ten percent of the ships available. What makes you think the Luftwaffe would do any better in open seas, when the destroyers are able to manoeuvre hard and at full speed?
And this is ignoring the fact that the Rhine barges that formed the majority of the transport fleet had such a low seaboard that the wake of a passing destroyer would swamp them – that’s right, the RN could literally send the entire invasion fleet to the bottom without firing a shot. Heck, they could probably cause significant damage just by refloating HMS Victory and sending her in.
(See here for more Sealion analysis)
Incidentally, while we’re talking about beautiful jet fighters, can I register a vote for the English Electric Lightning? More rugged than pretty perhaps, but definitely something you can’t take your eyes off if you see it…
A few comments. Obviously the editorial policy of Samizdata would favour the DEHAVILLAND Mosquito 😉
Also, the roles of P38 and Mosquito may have overlapped but were rather different. I’ve never thought of the Mosquito as an air superiority fighter; the P38 definitely was. I just can’t see how the two could realistically be compared.
Those who love the EE Lightning should save their pennies and go to South Africa where they can buy a flight on one.
I do not think Dunkirk and the time of Battle of Britain were all that comparable. German air superiority in Europe was not nearly so total at Dunkirk. By the Battle of Britain the Luftwaffe was considerably larger… they were building quite a bit during the Phony War period.
So let us suppose the RN cruised into the channel with no air cover. From the time the weighed anchor until they reached the southern England invasion site the Luftwaffe would have attacks the size of the London Blitz with a sky dark with He111’s, J88’s and Do17’s hitting at high and low level, Ju87’s dive bombing and 109’s straffing decks. They would drop, fly home, rearm and return. The RN losses would be horrendous.
I cannot think of there ever being any such situation occuring in Naval annals… no Admiral was ever stupid enough to cruise a fleet into a narrow channel (some places you can run aground as well I believe), with no air cover, at short range from bases containing perhaps 1000 enemy aircraft and in broad daylight.
It would be suicidal.
I have read the article you pointed to and found it rather interesting. Given that the German plan was that bad, the rest of the discussion was moot and a first invasion attempt would have defeated itself with very little help.
I would still hold, given the premise of our discussion here, that if the RAF had been *defeated*, the Royal Navy would have taken enormous losses which could well have opened up the North Atlantic to the Bismarck, Prinz Eurgen, Tirpitz and others. The troop losses to Germany would not really have given them pause. We often forget that the ‘real’ war happened on the other front and the losses in men, tanks and aircraft on that front make the eastern front pale in comparison.
Hitler would have just written it off; the high command would have toasted the defeat of the RAF, the decimation of the RN, the pending victory in the Battle of the Atlantic and the pending withdrawal of a starving England from the war.
I would also agree that the basic premise of this discussion is unlikely: I do not believe the RAF would have been defeated and cannot actually think of a scenario in which such would occur. That in turns means the RN stays on top of the water instead of becoming an artificial reef, which in turn means the German fleet stays bottled up.
Without the RAF, England was effed. The Few *are* were exactly what everyone says they were. They saved the country.
If you drive, (or even fly) from DC to Key West, be sure to genuflect towards Kitty Hawk on your way past.
B-52 and balsa? I’m drawing a blank.
Regarding bases alleged to have based sac nuclear weapons, here is an interesting page but please, please consider the source. A little more reliable is this page, but it seems incomplete to me. For example, there was a remarkable incident at Volk field in western Wisconsin, where a bear (four legs, teeth, not the Tupolev variety) wandered onto a base in Minnesota and triggered an intruder alarm. But due to a slight wiring error it tripped the scramble alarm launching interceptors armed with nuclear air to air missiles from Volk field. It got as far as a base commander driving out on the field and stopping the scramble with his car headlights. It happened in June of 1963, I think. Sounds almost like the inspiration for Dr. Strangelove.
Congratulations on your
looming…impending…imminent… er … soon to be celibrated nuptials. Please accept my commendations and give your wife-to-be my condolences. May she be durable and tolerant of a very interesting person. And may you both enjoy a lifetime of happiness.Nuts. NK just popped a nuke.
“Do you know how many destroyers the Luftwaffe actually managed to sink in the fortnight or so of the evacuation? Four. Almost exactly ten percent of the ships available. What makes you think the Luftwaffe would do any better in open seas, when the destroyers are able to manoeuvre hard and at full speed?”
Look at RN losses in Mediterraneum.
Thanks Midwesterner,
I can assure you Lizzy has at least got to tolerate my foibles over the last seven years…
The balsa B-52. Well… I don’t have the references with me. I read it in a book by Bill Gunston (who is usually reasonably accurate if a poor writer). Anyhow. It was a bit like this. SAC wanted a B-36 replacement and Boeing amongst other companies had sketched out plans for a big straight-wing turbo-prop. Their team had given their presentation at the Pentagon and underwhelmed everybody. Boeing really wanted the contract and one of their brghter sparks came up with the idea of using 8 of the new turbojets which would make their design a clear winner (it had previously generally been assumed that the specified range could not be achieved by a jet). Well the Boeing lads were in a motel in or near DC and they had a weekend. They had an earlier study for a medium bomber (I suspect something along the lines of an improved B-47 with four engines in wing mounted pods) and they just scaled it up, doubling the engines in each pod. This was for a renewed assault on the Pentagon on the Monday. As you can imagine they worked like trojans all weekend on the new proposal. During this process one of the lads noticed that just down the road was a model shop so he bought a load of balsa and paint and some USAF decals and carved and painted a model of the new plane. It was presented to SAC and the Pentagon and the rest is history.
That’s from memory, but it’s the gist of it.
The bear story is great. Do you remeber a song from the 80s by Nina, a West German, “99 Red Balloons”? It was based upon an incident in which a load of helium ballons got loose, crossed the border and the Warsaw Pact ramped up readyness dramatically when they showed up on radar…
In retrospect the Cold War almost seems comforting. The Sovs at least seem to have been rational players… But NorK and (soon) Iran?
How did it ever come to this that a country that can’t even feed itself can lord it on the world stage?
Ah Kitty Hawk! Of course. I flew my rocket powered free-flight Hawker Hunter on the 100th. How could I not? I wonder what Orville and Wilbur would have made of the last 103 years?
(Nearly went to the Carolinas, but the climate in the Keys won us over).
Possibly an early test of my wife-to-be’s forbearance will of course be the Smithsonian Air and Space, yea even unto the Steven F Udvar-Hazy Annex…
Lizzy has never been to America. I know she’ll love it. I fell in love as soon as I got out of immigration at Hartsfield nearly eleven years ago…
The ones at night to aircraft? Damn few. (And the ones in daylight were mainly to units that had spent time training to attack ships). The Rhine barges could not cross the channel in a day. Therefore they must spend some time in the Channel at night. How is the LW going to stop the RN destroyers and MTBs etc at night?
This ignoring the fact that the RAF would have pulled back to bases out of Bf-109 range if they were taking losses too heavily, and played a big part in repelling the invasion if it came.
I do think that the RAF could have been defeated had the shift from airbase destruction to London bombing not taken place. Had the Nazis focused on RADAR and airfield pounding, the chances of the RAF remaining effective would be seriously reduced.
I agree that the RN role was to keep the Nazi warships in port…which were actually a bit silly really – too many eggs in one basket.
As for Mustang vs Spitfire, people seem to forget the time gap between the first Spit and first Mustang. An age, considering war was raging.
I also have a soft spot for the Hawker Typhoon/Tempest in their rocket role and the brute force of the EE Lightning.
For those of you who would like more on WW2 heroics, I met Ed White at a dinner party a few weeks ago. He is the author of a new book (his memior) titled “Chopsticks and Wings”. He was a member of the US Flying Tigers in SE Asia. I haven’t laid hands on his book yet but the conversation was riveting. I believe he said he flew a P40 (I had been over sampling some McCallan single malt), but he said the plane kicked ass and handled very well even with a bomb or so under each wing. Sad to think that generation is steadily passing on.
The British Royal Navy, while a significant deterrent to any kind of Sealion Operation would likely not be the determining factor of the failure of the invasion. German u-boats would have operated under the cover of air parity-superiority to cover the two primary access points to the English Channel – a frontage of about 60 to 75 km each. Allied ASW through mid-1942 left much to be desired, so while the British navy may have taken a toll – it would have paid a heavy toll in return.
The Royal Air Force – all it needed to do was be able to actively contest the air.
The main deciding factor would be the slow and typically unsuited landing craft and barges that would be coming up to a heavily defended beach, without unparalleled air supremacy and without extensive naval support. We went into Normandy with these things and still took a beating – substantially from rifle men in fixed positions, well-positioned HMG’s, a few 88’s and other PAK’s, but almost no armor.
The ground troops would have decided it before the Axis got a toehold. That’s my 2 kopecs.
Fing Nerds get a life and the B-17 was the most amazing plane ever built faiiowed by the F-22 Rapter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!