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Samizdata, derived from Samizdat /n. - a system of clandestine publication of banned literature in the USSR [Russ.,= self-publishing house]

Time for a new crusade

No, another one quite separate to the festivities in Iraq…

Chief Inspector of HM Prisons Anne Owers has declared that the national symbol of England, the Cross of St. George, is racist and must not be worn by prison guards in case it upsets Muslim prisoners.

And it seems Chris Doyle, director of the Council for the Advancement of Arab-British Understanding, agrees, saying that the Red Cross of St. George was “an insensitive reminder of the Crusades”, adding: “…that it was now time for England to find a new flag and a patron saint who is not associated with our bloody past and one we can all identify with.”

Who is “we”? Perhaps Chris Doyle and his Council for Dhimmitude should spend more time getting Arabs to understand the British rather than the other way around.

I wonder how this organisation would react to calls for Muslims to abandon the crescent moon, the green flag and all other overly Muslim symbols as being offensive to some English people who may associate them with slavery? I mean, if it is ok for Muslims to be offended by English people in England wearing English symbols that remind some people of a series of wars that ended in 1300, how can anyone mind if I object to Muslims in England wearing Muslim symbols that I choose to associate with Muslim atrocities against English people which ended practically yesterday… i.e. when Lord Exmouth destroyed Algiers in 1816?

Completely daft of course but if we accept the logic of the likes of Anne Owers and Chris Doyle, it seems inevitable. Are they sure they want to go down that path?

84 comments to Time for a new crusade

  • Does anyone over there still use that flag? I thought your flag was the one that looked like a plus sign over an x now…

  • Verity

    I find primitive clothing on the streets of a long-civilised counry like Britain offensive. I’d like to see the hijab and all those other kinky, primitive accoutrements banned from public wear. They are free to wear that weird stuff in the privacy of their own home, but it gives me the creeps to see it in public.

    It offends me to see other human beings demeaned in public. Again, that means I don’t want to be assaulted by the servitude of the burka in public places in my country. I don’t mind seeing it in the Middle East, a deeply backward region of the world, but it has no place among civilised people.

    School uniforms mean school uniforms, not pick and mix. Uniforms should be uniform and any girl who wishes to dress up in desert attire is free to fantasise in her own bedroom at home.

    I want to see all these deeply offensive symbols removed from public view.

    Ken Hagler, British people “over there” still use that flag. The Union flag is the red cross of St George (England), the white cross on a blue background (the Saltire) of Scotland, and the red cross which looks like an X of St Patrick (Ireland). It is the symbol of our nation. You seem to still be using that flag with all those bars going crosswise and at the top on one side there’s a lot of stars. Keep it. It’s cute.

  • Chris Harper

    Ken, the flag of the United Kingdom is made up of the overlaying of the crosses of St George (England), St Andrew (Scotland) and St Patrick (Ireland).

    Although the St Patrick cross was invented for the purpose the St George and St Andrew crosses as national banners are of ancient usage, and are still flown in their respective countries. England and Scotland, of course, being different countries under the one United Kingdom.

    Actually, the UK is a strange setup, I don’t know another like it.

  • Susan

    How come the Welsh don’t get a cross on the Union Jack flag?

    I agree that next the Union Jack with its ancient crosses will be targeted next.

    Muslims (and the ACLU) in the US are already on the case of several Southern states which have incorporated the cross of St. Andrews in their state flag designs.

  • Alfred E. Neuman

    Well, we change our flag every time we add a state. Maybe you should start adding crosses like we add stars? That should get the message across.

  • Verity

    Susan – I don’t know. They’ve got an ancient patron saint – St David (or Dai), but I don’t know if he ever had a cross. Maybe, during the Crusades, the Welsh stayed home keeping a welcome in the hillsides.

    Hey! Where’s David Carr? It’s just occurred to me we haven’t heard from him for weeks! We’re getting anaemic! We’re short of irony!

  • fFreddy

    Never used to see the cross of St George when I was a kid. There was only the Union Jack.
    It’s only really become common in the last decade or so. Probably a reaction to the scotch nationalists, I suppose.

  • veryretired

    The purpose of multi-culturalism is not respect for other cultures, but intellectual disarmament, unilaterally, of the western christian democratic capitalist technological culture.

    I strung those elements together because they are the root causes for all that is wrong with the world, according to multi-culti dogma, and, therefore, they are intrinsically offensive to all members of the downtrodden cultural traditions which have been victimized for so long by everyone and everything from the W.C.D.C.T.C.

    That includes all those poor downtrodden societies who are enthusiastically borrowing, copying, stealing, emulating, patent-infringing, copyright-ignoring, and otherwise trying to HAVE W.C.D.C.T.C. without actually BECOMING W. etc. (especially the democratic, capitalist parts—those are absolutely the worst of all, ya’ know)

    What fascinates me is that anyone is still capable of being shocked or surprized by any of this b.s.

  • Pete_London

    I’ve never gone in for wearing the cross of St George, a decent shirt instead of a football shirt is more my thing. Now somehow, all of a sudden, I feel an urge to begin jazzing up my wardrobe. I think one or two would look lovely on my Bollocks to Blair rugby shirt. Contempt and two fingers up is the best response. That’s until the raising of two fingers is proscribed, lest it offend Frenchmen.

  • Robert Alderson

    The cross of St George really started making widespread public appearances at the time of the Euro96 football championships. Fascist groups like the BNP tend to full Union Flag to the cross of St George so this decision is doubly wrong.

  • Verity

    very retired – another perceptive post from you, and I don’t think anyone on Samizdata is surprised. We’re onto them. I have said for some time that this government in Britain is using the Muslims as tools to divide, conquer, gain hegemony – to what end, I do not know. But they don’t believe all this multiculti garbage themselves, of course. They know that saying Islam is primitive is not “racism”, but that will not stop them accusing you of racism. And the tiny people, way, way down the ranks seek to gain favour by doing what they imagine are their masters’ wishes. Banning toy pigs in local council offices as a sign of “tolerance”.

    Multiculturalism is the planned destruction of formerly stable, cohesive societies.

  • GCooper

    Verity writes:

    “Multiculturalism is the planned destruction of formerly stable, cohesive societies.”

    Take a bow, Antonio Gramsci.

    Oh, how he would have enjoyed today.

  • What Gramsci did not understand was that there might be an even more obdurate culture waiting in the wings,that is was those very pillars of society which he wished to destroy that were keeping the barbarians outside the gate.
    All revolutions have been close run things, and had unforseen consequences,civil disruption is always an opportunity for the real predators to move in

  • Lurker

    Perhaps Muslim countries could make the first move by taking the crescent off their flags or the Koranic gibberish off the Saudi flag. Im sure they would agree, after all Chris Doyle thought of it first.

  • Robert Alderson

    This is what happens when the state is reluctant to promote its own symbols. A similar case would be unthinkable in the US because the US flag is a very widely used symbol and could appear on the propaganda of both “right-wing nutjobs” and “liberal wieners.” It is not seen by anybody (as far as I know) as a racist symbol – quite the opposite.

    The prison authorities probably do have a problem with fascist groups amongst the guards. If the prison guard uniform included a flag to begin with then the fascists would not be able to expropriate what should be a symbol for all English people, Black White, Muslim or Christian.

  • veryretired


    Thank you for your kind observation. I was being facetious, of course, as I come here because there are plenty of people who do not have to have basic principles explained to them.

    Political correctness and multiculturism are nothing more than crude attempts to classify everyone into tribal groups differentiated by cultural identities (read classes) and then classified as either oppressors or victims.

    The only recognized oppressors are, surprize, surprize, the democratic capitalists, and the victims are everyone else. Other subsets are added by race and gender to further splinter the groups into smaller and smaller divisions.

    The object is the war of all upon all, with any individual identity or aspiration submerged into the tribal identity group.

    The end result is the race/gender based ethos we observe taking such a dreadful toll on the educational and political systems of our societies.

    Art, philosophy, political theory, economics, and everything else, can only be considered in light of the tribal characterisitcs of the originator. Nothing else matters. Ideas don’t have to be examined, only geneologies—oppressors can never produce anything good; victims can never do anything wrong.

    The ensign of St George is just another slice of the salami. A little slice here—a little slice there—nothing worth fighting over.

    In the US, it’s burning the flag, the pledge of allegiance, a christmas decoration removed, requirements to have everything printed in 37 odd languages because learning english is too oppressive, and on and on.

    Eventually we will understand that there is a fifth column in our midst, one that wishes the fall of this terrible, misguided experiment of having individuals run their own lives, and a return to that glorious time when everyone was submerged, identified, classified—when everyone knew their place, their group, their class.

    As the enemy constantly reminds us—the struggle continues.

  • Geoffrey Parmer

    Frightening for you Brits. I remain somewhat confident in the States due to the fact that the citizenry retains posession of many defensive (and offensive) weapons (as defined by British Law). However, our present freedoms are currently guaranteed by the good fortunes of the US economy and, consequently, contributions to the National Rifle Association. I am cognizant of the very real possibility that our fate could follow that of the UK and Canada with regard to self determination. I will remain vigilant.

  • Verity

    Robert Alderson, I don’t understand your point. The flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the Union Jack (the Union flag) and has been our ensign for several hundred years. Longer than your flag has been your symbol. Your post is very confused.

    What the “anti-racists” are promoting is the obliteration of the flag of St George, our English patron saint. Whether racists – however defined – use the English flag or not, it continues to be, as it has for centuries, the English flag. There are hundreds of years of deaths for the sake of England invested in it. It is irrelevant that groups of people, throughout those hundreds of years, have tried to hijack it.

    Worth mentioning here that when Phonio Antonio and Her Cherieness got into office, they got a little “task force” going to study “rebranding” Britain. In other words, changing the name of our ancient land.

    This impertinence should be remembered.

  • John Julius Norwich’s history of Byzantium tells us that the associaton of the crescent with Islam commemorates the sacking of Constantinople, the then capital of Eastern Christendom, by the Turks in 1453.

    Now if that’s not offensive to Christians I don’t know what is.

  • Robert Alderson

    I don’t understand your point. The flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the Union Jack (the Union flag) and has been our ensign for several hundred years. Longer than your flag has been your symbol. Your post is very confused.

    Let’s clear up one point …. the Union Flag is my flag. I cherish a long term dream of English independence so I also hold the Cross of St George dearly.

    My point applies to both the Union Flag and the Flag of St George. If the state does not sanction, endorse and encourage the appropriate display of these symbols then groups like the BNP can exploit that vacuum by prominently displaying them and associating them with their own very narrow interpretation of what they mean.

    The particular issue in the prisons could well be due to the fact that prison officers were banned from membership of the BNP and the associated display of BNP membership badges. Having been frustrated in that way they may have started wearing the Cross of St George and the prison governers might be seeking a way to stop them – in which case I forecast that the next item to be banned will be the rose…..

    The thrust of my point is that unless the state actively promotes its own symbols then any bunch of nutjobs can start investing those symbols with their own meanings; the BNP that they stand for national purity, white Britain etc. or the left that they are anti-Muslim.

    The flag of St George belongs to all English people of all colours and creeds.

  • rosignol

    I agree that next the Union Jack with its ancient crosses will be targeted next.

    Why are the scandinavians getting a pass?

  • guy herbert

    There’s at least one institution that regularly used to fly the cross of St George. The Church of England. Country churches with towers not spires usually have a flagstaff.

  • Michael Taylor

    As with so many other manifestations of Britain under Blair, the intent of Anne Owers has less to do with respect for the “offended minority” – in this case Muslims – than with a desire to humiliate the majority. The demonstrated and active humiliation of the majority is necessary to the maintainence of their political position and, I suspect, to the equilibrium of their individually fragile egos. In short, Houston, they’re acting like creeps because they are creeps. Nothing to do with multiculturalism at all. . .

  • If this is about tolerance, why can’t British Muslims be tolerant of the English?

    (You know, there was a time when the UK was a deadly enemy of the US. We fought a revolution against you guys. Later, British troops burned Washington DC during an attempted war of reconquest. But we Americans have gotten over it.)

  • Verity

    Michael Taylor, a very good observation and correct. It is about having the power to outrage accepted norms. “Multiculturalism” is as much a tool for the socially inadequate, powerless third-raters like Anne Owers as it is for a third-rate prime minister. Blair doesn’t give a rat’s arse about “multiculturalism”; it’s all about little increments of power.

  • Verity

    I’ve just seen over at Biased BBC that at the end of the regional news last night, Peter Cockroft added: “…and if you’re observing Ramadan, sunrise is at… and sundown is at…”

    Britain will be the first civilised country to go dhimmi and that is due to the jobsworth mindset so prevalent in this country. The desire to control and impose rules on other people. They know that 98% of British people aren’t Muslim and couldn’t care less about ramadan, whatever it is, but for Peter Cockroft, it is a chance to impose something on them.

  • Joshua

    Steven Den Beste – just so. Reminds me of when I taught English in Seoul and the students complained when I called the Sea of Japan the Sea of Japan. Apparently they’d prefer we call it the “East Sea.” (Never mind that “East Sea” is itself perjorative – since the body of water in question is east of everything but Japan.) Most of my colleagues were annoyed enough by this to just switch their term so as not to give the students an oppotunity to grandstand. But I loved it – because I could always silence them by pointing out that no one in America got all whiny about wanting to call the Gulf of Mexico the “Carribean Gulf” or any such.

    I would just like to add that getting so hot and bothered over religious trappings is particularly annoying because so often people are selective with their religious devotions anyway. There is a Mormon fellow here at the university, for example, who becomes highly offended when we suggest he drink a coke or a coffee but consumes more chocolate than pretty much anyone I’ve probably ever met. Likewise, there is a girl in one of my classes who is Muslim enough to be “disgusted” by pork but sleeps – out of wedlock and without the blessings of Allah – with pretty much whomever is available. I’m tired of it, frankly.

  • Wild Pegasus

    Not only have we gotten over the sacking of Washington, we’re wondering if you’re interested in a repeat performance.

    – Josh, Official Shadow Government Secretary of Veteran’s Affairs

  • JSAllison

    Gee, they’re still seething about the Crusades, response to islamic conquest that they successfully defended against? They seethe because they’re reminded of islamic victory? I guess millenia-long exposure to the sun could result in genetically transmitted madness, Dr Lamarck, call your office.

  • Fred the Fourth

    Dear Wild Pegasus,
    You are brilliant. Will you have my children?

  • TedM

    I am so glad to see Steve den Beste’s name on a comment. I keep a few of his old blogs permanently.
    We need him now to write in his usual thorough style.

    The flag and the piglets and the burger King lid are all signs of the same thing. A gradual free floating anxiey of fear creeping through the UK. The terrorists have terrorized. I am sure that in the back of the mind of lots of Brits is the small thought, “let’s not do anything to piss the buggers off. Don’t need another bombing”

    Maybe some good will come of this. Maybe the silent majority of Brits will wake up and get mad. Get mad that their culture and way of life is being stolen from them bit by bit. Maybe a lot of them will start wearing lapel pins with their flag as many Yanks do. Maybe people will start wearing Piglet tee shirts.

    Arise Britons, you have nothing to lose but the chains ensnaring you.

  • Verity

    TedM – You are correct. And the cue has constantly been given by The Great Appeaser, Phonio Antonio – who immediately convened an “advisory committee” of Muslim nutjobs to tell him what the British had to do to avoid being bombed again. When the not-so-mad mullah Omar Bakri found the money out of his welfare benefits to suddenly fly to Lebanon, Charles Clarke went on TV to say that he had excluded Bakri from re-entering Britain.

    Two weeks later, Bakri was back, living in his own (council) house and giving interviews to major newspapers.

    After the murders on London Transport, El Phonio immediately expressed concern not for the victims and their suddenly bereaved families, but for “the vast majority of law abiding Muslims”. In a criminally willful misunderstanding of his own country, he warned of a “backlash”.

    This entire Muslim seething and incremental appeasement is being engineered by Tony Bliar to tighten his control over the citizenry. It is not happening without his conscious and willful collaboration.

    I cannot be the only one who has watched this pattern develop.

  • Johnathan Pearce

    To repeat an old line of mine: This is a country, not a hotel.

    The trouble is, the people making all the fuss tend to be guilt-ridden and frequently white NuLab lawyers. I have heard it said from no less than Sean Gabb that there is no popular Muslim demand for this cultural vandilism.

  • TedM

    If there is not popular demand Johnathan, then why is there no popular uprising against it?

    I believe that most people now admit that Europe and the UK have a problem with “integration” of Muslims. It would seem that the time is ripe to rise up and say “no more”/ This is (fill in the name of the country) and this is how we live and what we believe. Come here and join us, but accept our country for what it is. Don’t come here and expect us to change to suit you. If you cannot live with that, go somewhere else which is more suitable to you.”

    The inevitable result of not putting an end to the kowtowing to one alien group is that the UK will become two nations sharing the same land. And then what?

  • Verity

    Jonathan, your phrase is well worth repeating and I agree with this sentiment.

    Where I disagree with you is when you say the people making all the fuss are: guilt-ridden and frequently white NuLab lawyers.

    No, they’re not. And they’re not that other convenient, facile phrase: self-hating liberals.

    Liberals do not hate themselves. They think they have all the answers to absolutely everything in the universe. They don’t feel guilty about a bloody thing.

    They are manipulative and controlling. They pull the rug out from under normal people to destabilise them. Piglet, beloved by British children for generations, is BAD. These people’s traditions and beliefs are placed ahead of our own. They don’t have to wear normal school uniform because it is not their “custom”. The normal response would be, “Well, she better get used to it, because it’s our custom.” Instead these people insisting on special treatment get elevated. We should offer our condolences to this mythical “Muslim community” that some of their number tragically offed themselves on London Transport. There must be no manifestation of anger for the bombings among the British. It is just a tragedy all round. Day is night. Black is white.

    The British are becoming cowed, which is something I thought I would never see, in the face of this. They know there is something wrong, but if they say Muslims should fit into our Western (Christian based) society, they will be accused of “racism”. (Misuse of language is another trick. Words mean what the ruler wants them to mean.) Therefore, common sense is suffocated and self-censoring begins to happen.

    Tony Blair is not a guilt-ridden, self-hating liberal, Jonathan. He is an arrogant, destructive monster.

  • Johnathan Pearce

    Verity, I think we are arguing over fine points of detail, here. Whether the “liberals” (a misnomer since many of them are extremely intolerant) hate themselves or are just arrogant sonofbitches is besides the point. The point is that much of the pressure for this sort of idiocy is coming not from the Muslim community but from the sort of people who think this country has a shameful past that has to be obliterated. (I doubt we disagree on that.)

    TedM, you are correct that the folk creating these daft laws are responding to a perceived “need”. Bear in mind though that if the governing classes had an atom of moral fibre, they would tell Muslim prison inmates that the Cross of St George is an ancient English symbol and the Cross, of course, is a symbol of a religion that has been the dominant cultural force in this land for more than 1000 years. And if they don’t like that fact, tough.

    As Perry said, perhaps the cultural thought police might like to wonder why we should not ban public displays of the crescent, which has tyrannical meaning for some people.

    This country is spinning into madness. It is like watching a traffic accident in slow motion.

  • The British people as a whole are not cowed,but incandescent with silent rage. It is only the political classes who are grabbing their ankles in this fashion,totally unaware of the time bomb the have set off.Many liberals are becoming aware of the violent contradictions in their “progressive” beliefs and the onslaught of Islamism.Feminists are beginning to see that feminism and Islam cannot coexist.
    For decades liberals have been redressing the balance to expiate imperial guilt and Western economic advantage,they are noticing that their chosen oppressed group is quite capable of redressing the balance for themselves.

  • Verity

    Peter, I was interested in your post. But again, I have to demur that liberals “have been redressing the balance to expiate imperial guilt, etc”. They have grabbed this thought as a rod with which to beat British backs and cow people because most people don’t know enough history to argue back.

    I am pleased to read that the British are not cowed but incandescent. So how will this be manifested?

    Jonathan, I hate to be a nitpicker, but I think it’s an important point that shouldn’t get swallowed up in your broader – and crucial – point. My point is that all this “liberal guilt” and “redressing the balance” crap is a lie and always was. This whole guilt trip is based on the drip, drip, drip of intentional falsehoods forced into body of Britain. They are not genuine. They were ever liars and I don’t want them to appear to get away with it.

    I agree with the rest of your post, though. As to the ancient cross of St George, the prison officers ought to hie themselves to Emerald City to see the Wizard of Oz, aka the European Court of Human Rights. No one has any right to deprive them of their right to wear their own flag in their own country. Who gives a crap what the Muslim prisoners want? They are in prison for criminal behaviour fer chrissake!

    Maybe they could be given a choice of sucking it down or being transferred (permanently) to sunny Islamabad.

  • Verity,
    In all sorts of ways,a very right on liberal feminist friend thinks that the jinjab is innimical to womans rights and should be illegal.A local shop recently taken over by asians is getting no business.
    Does anyone really think that the chavs can be deprived of the Cross of St George,without repercussions?
    Who do you think will be the recipient of all this disenchantment,why the Little Father of His People.
    So far no mainstream political party has dared use this disenchantment for fear of the racism card,but you can count on the BNP getting more votes.This in turn will put the shits up our Dear Leader, Her Cherieness will not wish to be hurled from the gravy train and might modify her pillow talk.

  • Verity

    Peter – Thanks for those instances.

    I despise politicians who are afraid of being accused of “playing the race card”. Surely they can find the words to demolish such an impertinent accusation? (Even if the left has now declared Islam to be a “race”.)

    On the other hand, I would not put it beyond the Little Father to throw even a well-known politician in prison, just as a lesson to everyone else. (“No one is beyond the law,” the Little Father would hiss.) Her Cherieness is in on this. These two are a team. Like the Ceaucescus and the Marcoses, they will do everything to cling on to power – everything short of moderating their behaviour, that is. Neither of those couples had the faintest idea of how much they were loathed.

    If the BNP gets too many more votes, the Little Father and Her Cherieness will outlaw it.

  • Verity

    Cox & Forkum have a cartoon on the Piglet incident here. (Link) About sixth or seventh item down.

    Britain’s getting quite a reputation.

  • Verity,
    The BNP would then take the case to the European Court of Human Rights,via Matrix Chambers,after all it would be a nice little earner..

    Actually,on thing Our father who art in Downing St could not stand is ridicule! It’s the Legacy!

  • I am pleased to read that the British are not cowed but incandescent. So how will this be manifested?

    If I might offer a suggestion, the place to start is to reverse the laws about gun ownership, and use of lethal force in self defense and defense of property. A great deal of positive secondary effects would flow from that one.

  • Verity

    Oh, Steven den Beste, what a good idea! We’ll do it tomorrow!

  • TedM

    steve, quite a suggestion. I assume that you have read Who Are We and Of Paradise and Power.

    I think those books sum up the differences between us and the Brits.

    I don’t wish to get enmeshed in British politics, of which I know little, but it seems to me that what they need is a strong leader who pushes them into recalliing and regained their “Britishness”. From what I read, Blair has said a lot of the right things. And then there is inaction. Or conflicting action, such as appointing

    Muslim advisors whose credentials seem to put them on the wrong side of the issue.

    We on the other hand, seem to have leaders who have trouble expressing themselves, but do take some of the right actions. Not a great position to be in , but better than the Brits.

    All in all, not the greatest position to be in so early in the 20 year war for survival.

  • I would say that the current debacle is one of the principle reasons in recent years why the British people have been disarmed and the police kitted out like assault troops.
    Somebody knew the fan and the ordure were about to make contact.
    Our Little Father knew he was going to have to sell us down the river at some point,much better to have us shackled first.
    BTW,Which country exactly is Blair Prime Minister of,I could never quite make it out?

  • Verity

    I find it laughable that someone who apparently knows little of the degeneration of British public life over the past 10 years would suggest that the power-unhinged Tony Blair, who disarmed the British as Step One to total control, would – as he realises how much he is loathed – suddenly decide they should have a right to own guns again.

    TedM – Blair says none of the right things. He makes insane laws, which his majority allows him to walk through Parliament, disarming us not just of weapons, but our ancient liberties, including freedom of speech.

  • TedM

    as I said, verity, I don’t know much about your politicians. I see Blair making a speech now and again or at a press conference.

    NOt trying to be sarcastic or offensive, but it may just be that the US, built on anglo protestant values and based on English common laws is the bastion of the rights and values which you would like to retain.

  • Verity

    Americans may not realise it, but Blair is doing away with the right to trial by jury.

  • Verity

    TedM – Yes, of course the US is a bastion of what Blair has taken a wrecking ball to in Britain. What good does that do us? It is our rights that the British prime minister is demolishing. You still have yours.

  • TedM

    verity, if y ou learn to speak Spanish, you could sneak into the US and enjoy life here. MIght even be able to collect your UK pension and get some extras here.

  • TedM,
    Couldn’t I pretend to be a mute Brazilian and claim political asylum?

  • Verity

    Ha ha ha ha ha! Presumably I’d have to live in East LA?

    If I still had my Green Card I could move to the US and work, but I gave it up when I left. People do crazy things.

  • Ted Schuerzinger

    Sorry, Peter, but I don’t think the BNP would win. Look at what the Belgian establishment did to the non-far left Vlaams Bloc. They went to several judges trying to get VB declared a racist party (and therefore ineligible for government election funds — another ghastly topic that’s not relevant here) until they found one who would bend to their will.

  • Why are we supposed to feel badly about the Crusades? The heart of the earliest Muslim conquests consisted of lands dominated by Christianity, and the Christians only wanted a portion of that territory back.

    Oh, and yeah, this was, like, 900 years ago?

  • Robert Alderson

    The general right to a jury trial is long gone in the UK.

  • Verity

    I don’t feel badly about the Crusades. Maybe the Children’s Crusade was a bit Nulabour – that Kelly woman would have dubbed it the Kelly Krusades – but otherwise, neat characters, neat names – Richard the Lionheart, Simon de Montfort, Kev, neat costumes, neat castles. And they killed thousands of Muslims. What’s not to like?

  • Ted,
    I didn’y say they would win,but political movement don’t disappear just because of being declared illegal,in fact they get more determined,viz the IRA.

  • TedM

    It will be a long slog Peter. Like nothing we have seen before.

    If you are old enough you recognize the term “fiftn column” We have that all over the world now.

  • TedM


    I forgot to add fellow travellers and useful idiots

  • Verity

    TedM – Well I’m old enough to be familiar with the term “fifth column” -although not yet old enough to be thinking of a British pension (see your previous post) thank you! – and I said about five or six years ago that I believe this is the first time in human history that the fifth column is actually the government. In reference to Britain.

    It is the government that betrays the country daily. Is tearing everything down and trashing it. Our constitution, our formerly formidable education system (now down to around 27th or 28th in the world, but don’t worry, Your Cherieness, it’s still sinking), our natural civility that is now instructed by ASBOs, our tolerance, which is now not just mandatory (then how is it tolerance?), but they’ve got their eye on you; our free speech, no longer free; an endless stream of murders so one never even bothers to remember the names of the victims any more, and slap on the wrist punishments; a breakdown of law and order and at the same time the disarming of the public. A government that promotes drunkenness and mayhem and soon to be a major promoter of gambling. And unmarried mothers (well, they would have to be; marriage isn’t legal until 16); the break-up of the family. The haughty corruption. A government whose first concern after a terrorist attack in our capital is a tender-hearted plea for tolerance of Islamics. In other words, within 10 years, the destabilisation of a former model of stability, calm, kindness, humour and steadfastness.

    Oh, yes, I think we are very familiar with the term ‘fifth column’, although shaken that the term now applies to our own government.

    That there is anyone left who has missed that the British government loathes Britain simply astounds me.

  • All those marxist student activists and loony left councils of yesteryear are now the givernment.The miracle of Za-NuLabor is that the party managers have managed to clean then up and stop their eyes revolving.
    Many of them are “ex”- communists,some were on MI5 watch lists.Why is anybody surprised?

  • Verity

    Peter – some were on MI5 watch lists? Who?

    And now they’re governing Britain? How did this happen?

    I imagine by lying low, assuming protective colouration, and finding themselves a frontman/snake oil salesman who could act enough like the enemy to slip them in. Tony the Trojan horse. No wonder they can barely keep the smirks of triumph off their faces.

    They have now subverted the police to their service. The teachers were never going to be difficult as standards plummet at such a rate you can hear the whistle as they drop.

    What is more appalling, because you expect garbage to smell, is, the Conservatives not only let it happen, but they want to get a seat on the train.

  • Alfred E. Neuman

    Verity, if you had a green card, that would mean you are a US citizen. You are one for life, barring a treasonous act. So if you can’t find your green card, order a new one.

    Smart move with the US citizen thing, by the way. It angers me intensely that anglosphere citizens are not fast-tracked to US citizenship. We tend to get along and work well together, you know. Two world wars and all that as examples–oh, and a common language (note the success of English speaking Indians–as in Asian Indians–by the way).

  • Verity

    Alfred E Numan – a Green Card means you are a legal alien and entitled to work and be protected by the law, etc. You don’t “order” a Green Card!

  • Alfred E. Neuman

    Verity, I am admittedly not familiar with the process being a US citizen by birth, but I was under the impression that a green card was a statement of American citizenship, not just some kind of work visa. Once you receive a green card, aren’t you just as much a citizen as me, with all corresponding priveledges?

  • guy herbert

    No; Alfred. To have the rights and privileges of a citizen you have to be naturalized. And even then you can’t be president.

    Since 2001 the executive has insisted that non-citizens don’t even have the protection of the Constitution. (So the official correct answer to one of the official naturalization test questions: Who is protected by the Constitution? will have had to have been changed.)

    And of course your Green Card can be taken away quite easily, unlike your citizenship. There are two main advantages over citizenship: (1) one can work and do business freely in the US, but when one leaves, one eventually ceases to be accountable to the IRS, whom an American can never escape, (2) there are some extraterritorial crimes on the books of the US, which might not touch a Green Card holder if the relevant acts were committed abroad, even though you might lose the card. (If you are a British resident then you are largely subject to US extraterritorial jurisdiction anyway since the beginning of 2004, so that’s not a huge advantage.)

  • Verity

    Guy is correct and that is why I surrendered my Green Card when I went to work overseas. I would have had to pay income tax in the country I was moving to to work, plus continue to pay US taxes, which is very onerous! Americans suffer double taxation wherever they’re living outside the US. So do Green Card holders. Also, in order to keep your Green Card valid, you have to land in the US once a year and have your passport stamped.

    It’s almost impossible to get a surrendered Green Card reinstated because they file you under M for Moron. The quota is very tiny with huge numbers of penitent applicants queued up. I didn’t even bother.

  • Robert Alderson

    A Green Card (which is not actually green in color) gives the bearer “permanent resident” status. The card is valid for ten years. Most people get naturalized before the ten years is over, but renewal after then 10 years is over is fairly simple.

    Entry into the US is always subject to authorisation from the immigration officer at the point of entry. Permission to re-enter will normally be denied if the bearer has been outside the country for longer than one year. Green card holders are obliged by law to carry the card with them at all times. They cannot vote but must register for selective service if of the appropriate age.

  • Verity

    I always thought that being barred from voting was terribly unfair. What happened to “no taxation without representation”? Never mind, it was a lovely country to live in.

  • Robert Alderson

    Verity, Foreign citizens with “indefinite leave to remain” in the UK also don’t have the right to vote, although EU citizens can vote in local and Euro elections. Should “no taxation without representation” be the only deciding factor for eligibility to vote?

  • Verity

    Robert Alderson, the Americans fuelled their Revolution partly on the slogan of “No taxation without representation.” This is practically their national slogan (after “The right to keep and bear arms”) and I am just saying that when I lived in the United States, I paid taxes on my salary like everyone else (well, I don’t mean that everyone else was paying taxes on my salary), but I was not accorded a vote. I was taxed, in the land of the free, without having representation.

    To be fair, if you went to a senator or even a councilman, for help with something, you would receive it, citizen or not. So in that sense, of course, resident aliens do have representation. It was a lighthearted comment and I wasn’t expecting to be taken up on it!

  • Robert Alderson


    Now I think about it states might actually be free to let non citizens vote. Also until recently the voter registration system was quite lax (just like in Britian) and an alien who wanted to vote probably could do so quite easily.

  • Verity

    Interesting thought, Robert Alderson. They might indeed be free to let aliens vote in city and state elections. But you would need a big lobby to persuade them to dabble in this issue and I am sure it would not be worth it to them. Although … I am sure the Hispanics are working on it.

  • “No taxation without representation” has actually been largely forgotten in the US. When I was in school it was briefly mentioned as a slogan of the Revolutionary War era, but without any discussion of what it meant. By the early 1980s it had vanished altogether.

    I actually agree with Verity (excuse me while I duck a flying pig) that it’s unfair for tax-paying US residents to be unable to vote.

  • Robert Alderson

    Residents of Puerto Rico are US citizens but cannot vote in presidential or congressional elections and are exempt from federal taxation. From a purely selfish point of view I would say that we Green Card holders should be treated the same way.

    In fact the unfairness is not very significant. Most Green Card holders go on to be come naturalized citizens within a few years and so probably only miss one presidential vote.

  • verity

    Who is Anne Owens to rule that British prison guards cannot wear pins of their national flag in their own country because it might offend alien convicted criminals?

    Whether or not illiterate convicted Islamic criminals have progressed to understanding that the cross of St George is the English flag is not a problem of the British taxpayer who funds prisons.

    It strikes me that this controlling, politically correct jobsworth has overstepped the mark and infringed the rights of prison workers all over England. I am sure there are “human rights” lawyers queued up outside the prison gates. Her Cherieness will surely have despatched a foot servant?

    Does this Owens, who is apparently empowered to enforce fanciful dress codes, wear a burqa in order not to offend the religious sensibilities of these Muslim convicted criminals?

    I am serious about this question.

  • Midwesterner

    Verity, I think I can guess the answer to this one based in large part on your past observations. I suspect that this has nothing to do with ‘respecting other cultures’ and everything to do with hating her own.

    Just a guess.

  • Verity

    Midwesterner, I have been consistent in saying that these people do not hate their own culture. They feel frightfully superior and very, very special, and find a thrill in condescending through the power of the breadth and depth of their spiritual awareness to other cultures.

    They are not self haters. They think they, personally, are mahatamas. Above their own kind. I am guessing this individual was not popular in school. In other words, always felt excluded. They are chippies on stilts. With no physical or intellectual power (are there any leftie wrestlers? for example), they adopt the high road to moral power, through superior ability to “relate” to other cultures. They’re not self-haters. They’re trying to find a foothold. Any foothold.

  • Midwesterner

    Verity, I think I sacrificed clarity for brevity. When I said ‘her own’, I meant traditional english culture, not ‘ZaNuLab’ culture.

    Are you saying they would willfully destroy english civilisation, yet still not hate it, just to assuage there own feelings of social rejection or whatever?

    Every power tripper I know of has, once you pry the lid off and look inside, self hatred that can only being eased by hating something else more than themselves.

  • Verity

    Midwesterner, I am as perplexed as you. I cannot answer your question. I think they may harbour a tremendous grudge against English/British culture and history for some reason, feeling, perhaps, that it has failed them in some way and hungering to get their own back. I don’t know.

    I think “outlawing” the flag of St George, ancient symbol of England, in order to placate sworn enemies of England speaks volumes about the anger this individual harbours.

  • Julian Taylor

    Robert Alderson writes,

    The general right to a jury trial is long gone in the UK.

    Err, no it has not. The Mode of Trial Bill amendment laid (amongst others) a provision for a panel of ‘experts’ to decide whether or not a jury would be of ‘sufficient competence’ to assess the guilty or not guilty aspect of a high level fraud trial but, as is so often found with ‘experts’, they were unable to reach a decision – an irony not lost in Lord Goldsmith’s report to the Lords and the Commons. Goldsmith’s report stated that he might be able to push through between 15 and 20 trials per annum if a panel of judges heard the trial, instead of a jury, and that was something that would necessitate application by the prosecution and approval by both the proposed trial judge and by the Lord Chief Justice. It now transpires that the judiciary are solving the problem with plans already under way to make sure that no case lasts more than three months, thus reducing the chance of jury illness and legal delays, which recently caused the Jubilee Line fraud trial to be abandoned.

    So one of the ‘trial without jury’ potentials in the UK has already been headed off. The only other one, namely the ‘Diplock’ system in Northern Ireland, is already under review from 1st August this year with an intent to abolish that system.

  • Yes in northen Europe there’s no less than seven countries and provinces with the Cross of Philip in their flags: Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Faroe Islands and Åland.

  • gwashington

    I must say I am troubled to hear politician having no backbone? I would have never expected that!! the whole idea of a national symbol being removed to make less the 1% happy?(and not even historically frond their) And your right they are moving in to get a foot hold to convert or kill those that do not follow their beliefs.(across the western minded world this is happening even Brazil , Puerto Rico, etc.) I spent some time in the Middle East and believe me they will say nice things to your face at the same time they are planning on killing you. The one thing people just don’t understand is that we need to look at things the way they do… It is ok to lie and kill us because we are not real believers. They get a free pass from “Mohamed”. They think like are societies did back in the Middle Ages, if you know your history you understand that. What really gets me is that the Koran does not teach this hatred and lies, it is the culture of the middle east that has taken a thing of peace to a thing of blood. This again is the same as we did in our cultures time.