Since I was once an anti-draft demonstrator, I find it heartening to read the DefSec of the United States state pretty much what my feelings were then and are now: a draft is slavery. In his words:
“My guess is that if one looks over a span of time, the history of our country, we’ll see that we have tended, during the periods that we had a draft, we tended to pay people about 40, 50, 60 percent of what they could have made in the civilian manpower market and use compulsion to have them serve.
Once that ended, we then were forced — properly in my view — to go to incentives that can attract out of the public sector the people we need and reward them properly so that they will in fact stay and serve and develop the kind of educational background and the kinds of skills and the kinds of time in position so that they can perform well for the country.”
A nation whose citizens will not defend it does not deserve to survive, and a government which must rely on volunteers must be more circumspect about the use of those volunteers. Wars must be for the protection of family and society or else volunteers will not be forthcoming.
I think one could make a very strong “original intent” argument here. The times may require the “standing armies”, but a volunteeer service at least acts as a brake on adventurism.
What? Someone in government actually has read the Constitution?? (The 13th Amendment in particular)
May the miracles never cease!!
I will pass over the disgusting notion, worthy of a true peace creep, that military service in tantamount to slavery. One who suggests that understands neither war nor manhood. But moving on to the practical, let me only suggest that we simply do not need a draft. We’re not fighting with pitchforks, you know. One of the many benefits of the West’s war culture is the obsolescence of the horrors of “tweet-tweet, over-the-top” warfare. Numbers are an impediment now. There is still a place for courage in the world, as a civilian may be in no less danger than all but the most engaged of soldiers, but if you will not stand in the battle-line with us we do not need you.
I don’t know where Lou got the idea that anyone was equating military service with slavery. However, compulsory military service, like any other compulsory service, *is* slavery.
On the other hand, I wonder how militarily adventurous the United States could be if we set up an “American Foreign Legion”, enlisting anyone in the world, and granting US citizenship after, say, 10 years service; and giving members the option to sign up for or decline any particular foreign adventure. There are quite a number of young men who would be willing to serve in imperialist wars, and if we drew from the whole world, with the final reward of US Citizenship, we could easily field a formidable, if smallish, force for things which the general American public wouldn’t want to see American soldiers risked.
I must wonder whether Mr. Gots read the article. His response is nonsensensical given what I said. *FORCED* “service” is not an honourable thing. It’s just forced service. That does not necessarily mean the enslaved conscript might not act honourably, or even that they might not have chosen to serve if given a choice in the matter.
The United States no longer has a slave army. It has an army of Free Men and Women who chose to serve. That is much more appropriate to what the nation stands for.
If a Nation of Free People cannot raise a voluntary army of sufficient numbers to protect that Liberty, then it does not deserve to keep it.
If that hurts anyone’s sensibilities… tough.
It is testimony to the just nature of the coming Iraq campaign that, almost to a person, our all volunteer military is more than willing to fight.
“What? Someone in government actually has read the Constitution?? (The 13th Amendment in particular)”
Unfortunately not the supreme court in Arver v. U.S. (1918):
“Finally, as we are unable to conceive upon what theory the exaction by government from the citizen of the performance of his supreme and noble duty of contributing to the defense of the rights and honor of the nation as the result of a war declared by the great representative body of the people can be said to be the imposition of involuntary servitude in violation of the prohibitions of the Thirteenth Amendment, we are constrained to the conclusion that the contention to that effect is refuted by its mere statement.”
So forcing someone to do something “supreme and noble” is not involuntary servitude…
My thanks to Lucas W., supra for the cite to Arver. Being a soldier is not something a citizen volunteers for, it is something a citizen is. I’m a bit disappointed that alleged Libertarians don’t appreciate that war is the only reason for the state to exist. We don’t need the state for anything else but war. By American law almost all citizens are in the militia. Victor David Hansen’s The Western Way of War is a good reference here, as is Machiavelli. We would do well to remember that much of the world considers us a settler nation, like Israel or the former RSA, whose very existence is illegitimate. We can do almost anything with bayonets, but we cannot sit on them, nor shall we be allowed to.
My thanks to Lucas W., supra for the cite to Arver. Being a soldier is not something a citizen volunteers for, it is something a citizen is. I’m a bit disappointed that alleged Libertarians don’t appreciate that war is the only reason for the state to exist. We don’t need the state for anything else but war. By American law almost all citizens are in the militia. Victor David Hansen’s The Western Way of War is a good reference here, as is Machiavelli. We would do well to remember that much of the world considers us a settler nation, like Israel or the former RSA, whose very existence is illegitimate. We can do almost anything with bayonets, but we cannot sit on them, nor shall we be allowed to.
My thanks to Lucas W., supra for the cite to Arver. Being a soldier is not something a citizen volunteers for, it is something a citizen is. I’m a bit disappointed that alleged Libertarians don’t appreciate that war is the only reason for the state to exist. We don’t need the state for anything else but war. By American law almost all citizens are in the militia. Victor David Hansen’s The Western Way of War is a good reference here, as is Machiavelli. We would do well to remember that much of the world considers us a settler nation, like Israel or the former RSA, whose very existence is illegitimate. We can do almost anything with bayonets, but we cannot sit on them, nor shall we be allowed to.
WWI was perhaps one of the more destructive wars we’ve ever been in if you consider only civil liberties. I can well believe such a decision would occur in the patriotic fervour that saw German-American shops smashed in riots and a “temporary” income tax passed.
I’m afraid Lou and I are at total loggerheads. I would chose my fights, not just accept a draft and fight to make Central America safe for the United Fruit Company. I’d have fought Japan and Germany in WWII; I think I’d have given WWI a pass; Korea was worth the fight but they should have prosecuted it to completion; I gave Viet-nam a pass and if drafted would have given them the finger; Panama was assinine; the Gulf War worthy of effort; and this war is for survival.
You don’t go fight just because some asshole politician gets a a pot of money from someone to protect their interests. You fight because your home and friends and family are at direct risk. Nothing else is worth lifting a finger or risking a cut finger over.
The founders of our Republic felt there should be NO standing army. Militias were originally volunteer organizations. It was only in the Civil War that a draft was necessary to get enough unwilling bodies (research the draft riots in New York by the fresh off the boat Irish immigrants who were thrown into the breach as slave cannon fodder) to fight.
If you haven’t guessed it, I’m among those who believe the North forced the Civil war for economic reasons having nothing to do with freeing slaves, and that slavery in the South would have ended within 20-30 years anyway without the cost of a half million souls in the needless butchery of that insane conflict.
Just for fun, I’ll list where I’d have stood on as many wars as I can remember:
American Revolution: Proudly
Whiskey Rebellion: Definitely. On the farmers side.
War of 1812: Yes, direct agression on us.
Mexican War: Probably. The French were
looking for a Euro-foothold here.
Civil War: I’d have moved to England.
Spanish-American War: Uncertain. I’d have to study it
more deeply.
WWI: I think Nepal might have been
a nice place to sit it out.
Assorted Central American: Are you kidding? I’d have
rammed a banana up the
arse of the UFC CEO first.
WWII: Proudly.
Korea: Yes.
Vietnam Hell no.
Panama: No. Why should I fight to
remove a CIA embarassment?
Gulf War: Yes.
WWIII: This war. Proudly.
I would note the only one of these which fell during my
ages of eligibility was Vietnam which I would not have
touched with a bargepole. I’d fully intended to be a career USAF but gave it pass because I was so strongly against
involvement in a war that had nothing to do with me or my loved ones.
I have to do a persuasive speech in school on this topic. I have to state why I dont think a draft should be reinstated. Anyone out there who cares please email me any information on the draft. It would be GREATLY appreaciated. Thanks Every1 The Email Adress is Bezfour@aol.com
Peace & Love
Kyle: I attempted to email you directly but it bounced.
Here’s one on why it’s bad for the military:
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jan2003/t01132003_t113bkgd.html
I’m very, very disappointed with those on the left who
are now supporting the draft. When I was in college we
demonstrated to STOP THE DRAFT. Friends of mine in a
guerilla theatre troop were arrested demonstrating in
front of the house of a Pittsburgh Draft Board member
and several were injured in a riot in the Pittsburgh
Court house after people started chanting anti-Draft
slogans and the cops waded in.
If the left supports the draft today, then they have
simply become “the pigs” in my humble opinion and
deserve the same level of disrespect I and my cohorts
gave the government when it supported the draft.
A draft is slavery. It is forced labour at low wages
doing things you don’t want to do and can be shot for
not doing.
If there is any difference between a draftee and any
other slave, I am unaware of it. True some draftees
came to take pride in what they did. But then, some
slaves in the South came to love Massa…
Defending your country is a choice you should only
make if you believe in your country. If that is
the truth then it is an honourable thing and you
are worthy of respect.
This is not to say that many draftees did not serve with honour, nor that many of them might have enlisted if they had been given the moral choice rather than a statist gun to the head.