I think our attitude toward America should change … we have a chance, in America, to be the moral leadership of America. The problem is when? It will happen, it will happen [Allah willing], I have no doubt in my mind, Muslims sooner or later will be the moral leadership of America. It depends on me and you, either we do it now or we do it after a hundred years, but this country will become a Muslim country. And I [think] if we are outside this country we can say ‘Oh, Allah destroy America,’ but once we are here, our mission in this country is to change it.
– Abdul Rahman al-Amoudi, a prominent American Muslim leader
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Samizdata slogan of the daySeptember 30th, 2003 |
 49 comments to Samizdata slogan of the day |
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Well, I just got to admire the guy’s style…
Good luck, Abdul. You’ll need it.
In many ways, of course, this is scary. But in another way, could one not look at it as a small step in the right direction? I’m sure this guy has ideological brethren who regard him as a dastardly, grovelling backslider. Not destroy America indeed! What’s the world coming to?
Next thing you know, this guy will be telling all the Islamofascists who are even nuttier than he is to go easy with the terrorism, because it sets the back The Cause.
Positive? I don’t know…It just smells to me that the Islamofascists are just getting smarter. Working behind the curtains instead of just setting them on fire. Don’t see what’s so positive about that.
Yes, this is oddly more disconcerting than a frontal assault.
This shouldn’t come as a surprise to any of you. They’d already been making much quieter noises about converting the US (and Britain, too, guys) into a Mulsim, i.e. Sharia, country. I think they’ll have their hands full.
man… i wouldn’t worry ’bout that! All you anti-multiculti types around here aren’t secure enough in the inherent superiority of our liberal (in the original sense) culture. Any army of subversives sent in to convert our culture would find itself rapidly depleted, within a generation or 2 if not before that, to the usual Western vices of consumerism, individual freedom, atheism, lack of respect for tradition etc. etc.
seriously, that kind of talk doesn’t worry me in the *slightest*.
Did any of you notice that this man was recently arrested by the Feds for trying to smuggle in several hundred thousand dollars in cash from Libya?
I’m sure he’ll have to plenty of time to preach to his fellow convicts in the slammer.
You guys from the USA should throw this idolatrous, demented, islamofascist cretin in the first psychiatric hospital available.
Not that wanting to convert the USA is a crime. It’s only stupid & people’s private business anyway. But that this hallucinated twerp dares to put “god” in Public Matters is a crime against secularism & intelligence.
Take it seriously & mayn’t you doubt one second.
But, Kodiak, I’m shocked. Don’t you know in America there is freedom of religion ? You can’t and shouldn’t harrass anybody for wanting to convert you to Islam. It’s his priviledge to preach whatever religion he likes.
If he preaches terrorism and violence, or raises money for terrorists – that’s another matter, that’s punishable.
There is nothing in the quoted slogan to warrant prosecuting the speaker, but it warrants profiling him and and keeping an eye on him.
Don’t take it too easy, guys. That is exactly the ignorant attitude that blinded US before 9/11. Just yesterday watched “round table” on C-Span2 on Wahhabism in America. Do you know that Saudi, Iran and Siria pay for Islamic Studies Departments in our universities number now is about 30, including Harvard and Berkley – and growing. Do you know that islam is the fastest growing religion in US? They send missionaries to prisons, military and colleges – look at the people who was arrested lately- not Arabs. Hell, remember the “American Taliban”, John Lindh? Remember the ourageous women in Ca, demanding to take her driver license picture taken in veil – she was converted to Islam 3 months prior.
So, never say never- and be aware.
Hi A_t
Individual freedom is some kind of Western vice? I’m assuming you are not attempting to be satirical or something. I agree with you that this kind of talk does not worry me in the slightest. As for the rest, this is one Brit who cant wait for my US immigration papers to be processed so that I can get back to the US and indulge my taste for all things American, consumerism included. I dont have much respect for pointless exercises in tradition either, of the type frequently indulged in here in the UK. I’m a very devout and pious atheist as well.
I agrre with A-T… this is cause for a good laugh… though I hardly see individual freedom, atheism, lack of respect for tradition as ‘vices’.
Not until the liberals succeed in cancelling out the 2nd ammendment.
I find this quote annoying, naturally, but not terribly troubling. Substitute “Christian” for “Muslim” and you will have the transcript of a typical Sunday service in the Bible Belt.
It is terrorism which emperils America, not proselytizing. If Americam Muslims want to devote their time and energy to converting their fellow Americans to Islam, then I suspect that task will occupy them in perpetuity.
Jacob,
(…) I’m shocked. Don’t you know in America there is freedom of religion ? You can’t and shouldn’t harrass anybody for wanting to convert you to Islam. It’s his priviledge to preach whatever religion he likes
Perhaps I misarticulated what I thought. What I meant is this: anyone has the unquestionable right to worship any god or statue or illuminated creed, but no one has the right to put that kind of nauseating stuff in political life.
If your prefer: “god”? yes! in your home or church-temple-synagogue-mosque only… not in our parliament, not in our ballots, not in our institutions!
I agree with Abby, it is just as much a Christian tradition to proselytise it is after all considered god’s work to convert heathens, bringing them into the light as it where. I also think that our liberal (in the traditional sense (- ) societies will “corrupt” Islam long before Sharia becomes a serious possibility in the west.
I think Tayana makes a fair point.
Complacency in the face of a growing religious virus didn’t do a great deal for the Roman empire, did it?
And while it is true that the likelihood of the USA converting en masse to Islam is zero, if sufficient imbeciles are suckered into this mediaeval belief system, then you have a recipe for conflict which could last for decades.
It’s a curious paradox, that the Islamofascists enjoy the freedoms that exist within our society to preach Islam (and quite right, too), but should they achieve their aim and convert the Western world to Islam, that freedom will disappear overnight.
Become a Moslem? Over my dead body.
Perhaps someone within this guy’s organisation has questioned his commitment…
…And because of that he’s come up with this statement in which he is trying to avoid any idea of him himself having to become a suicide bomber by making his cushy little lifestyle in the US sound deep dark and dangerous.
I disagree with those on this thread who feel threatened by the peddling of religion in the ideological marketplace. Islam is a theory of reality — much like Christianity, athism, or for that matter, libertarianism.
I happen to think that radical Islam is a delusion and a blatant failure as an ideology. History abounds with its practical refutation, e.g. Afganistan, Iran. Just as victory in the Cold War flowed from the failure of Marxism, the war on terror depends on the validity of liberal democracy as an idea.
I certainly don’t fear the arguments for voluntarily transforming the US into a facist Islamic state. Quite the contrary, that is an argument I expect to win.
Abby,
Islam is a theory of reality — much like Christianity (…)
Are you feeling all right?
Islam, Christianity, Judaism & any other “god”-based amphigoric “theory” isn’t about reality. It’s about faith at best, superstition at worst. They are all about non-reality: life after death or a speculative supreme creature beyond human concepts.
That said, religion do have a historical, linguistic, anthropological, theological etc interest.
And also: who cares if the USA or Europe are Muslim or Christian???
Do you think he would be offended if we called in Chutspah?
(snark snark)
“And I [think] if we are outside this country we can say ‘Oh, Allah destroy America,’ but once we are here, our mission in this country is to change it.”
-As the worm changes the cabbage. No thank you. We don’t need no steenking Theocrats.
And also: who cares if the USA or Europe are Muslim or Christian???
Besides me, I don’t know. Ask her Dad maybe:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/09/30/nyones30.xml
You surely have a queer relation to coherence. One minute it’s “throw them in the madhouse” – in the purest Soviet tradition of dealing with opponents, and particularly clerics, by the way – and three posts later it’s “Oh well, who cares anyway, it’s all the same…”
I have news for you: no matter how you much you hate Christianity, it doesn’t compare, as far as moral equivalence is concerned.
Perhaps he should be forced to listen to the classic Metallica song “Enter Sandman” for a decade…. That’ll give him something to think about.
Apparently captured taliban were subjected to this repeatedly in Afghanistan. It seemed to work!
TDF,
Again, believing in something is private individuals’ business. To that very extent, the fact that Europe or the USA are Muslim, Christian, Jewish or Buddhist is of no particular interest PROVIDED the core values remain untouched, those being secularism combined with Human rights & free speech.
As a consequence, the demented islamic proselyte may well convert millions of people if that’s what they want.
BUT, regardless of his converting or non-converting activity, he’s NOT entitled to throw “god” in the public life of the USA. His being Christian or Jewish wouldn’t change anything.
Finally: I don’t want to make a hit-parade of religions. Christianity, in its best hours, was AT LEAST as awful, loathsome & risible as Islam now is. Ask Gallileo or the exterminated inhabitants of Béziers (XIIIth century).
Kodiak,
As I understand it, Islamofacists theorize the following: there is one God, Allah, Allah has declared his will via the Koran, devotion to Allah requires an Iranian/Taliban-style Islamic government under the Sharia, to do so will please Allah, the reward will be a sucessful and virtuous society.
This is what Islamofacists believe to be reality. It is impossible to objectively argue about the reality of the God: this cannot be either proven or disproven. But Allah’s existence is just one premise in a larger argument. The conclusion of that argument is that societies like Iran or Afghanistan should be a picture of contentment and sucess.
In my opinion, modern Iranian society, like athiest Soviet society, demonstrates the practical falsity of one or more of the conclusions it draws about reality. In otherwords, when Communists and theocrats have their way the result is failure where sucess should have been the result.
My thoery of reality is that whether on not there is a God, human beings are the happiest and most sucessful when they live in a liberal democracy which allows them the personal freedom to argue about the truth of religion or anything else, but does not allow one group to impose itself on another. The sucess of the West seems to me to be obvious proof of that.
I don’t worry about whether Islam is the dominant religion in America, Europe or elsewhere. I don’t think religious debate should be supressed, a la the Soviet Union and increasingly France, but I do think oppressive religious states are posterchildren for failure. Their example will not willingly be followed by the US.
Abby,
99% with you, including human beings are the happiest and most sucessful when they live in a liberal democracy which allows them the personal freedom to argue about the truth of religion or anything else, but does not allow one group to impose itself on another
1% being: I don’t think religious debate should be supressed, a la the Soviet Union and increasingly France
To my great disappointment, the religious debate has never been so harsh in France, well before 9/11 & the sudden US interest for Islam (I probably exxagerate, but…).
I wonder if Abdul will have the same thoughts when he finds out that his granddaughter has just posed for Playmate of the Month, cerca 2036.
The Islamists have a basic problem when it comes to establishing “moral leadership” in America (or elsewhere in the West). Militant Islamists cannot, as a rule, assimilate into American culture; and if one can’t assimilate, forget about political power.
Less dogmatic Islamist (“all turban and no jihad,” as Mark Steyn would say) — those who might assimilate successfully — will end up being co-opted by materialism.
There will be exceptions, but that’s why America has an FBI.
it wouldnt surprise me if it was Osama who wrote all that doodley-fuck about america becoming a muslim country. first they would have to throw the constitution down the shitter, and then make free-thinking ilegal, please lord, keep the muslims in their deserts!!!!
Kodiak,
Of course I cannot pretend to know more about French society than you, but I have been curiously observing the reaction of historically anti-clerical France to its new Islamic minority.
There is reputed to be on entire department of your government devoted to preventing schoolgirls from wearing Islamic headscarves. My personal belief is that a bit more tolerance on the part of the French government would ease some of the secular vs. religious tension in your society.
But I will defer to your appraisal of the matter, as it is your society in question and not mine.
There is a fundamental flaw in your argument, Kodiak. Islamism does not recognize secularism, period. Adoption/adherance to the former negates the possibility for the existance of the later. Sharia is Allah’s law and supercedes any earthly/secular influence. There would be ZERO free speech, ZERO “political life”, no ballots, no parliament, no human rights. In short, none of the things in western culture, which you seem to enjoy and defend, would be possible. Not even the freedom to not worship would be afforded you. Strict adherence to Islamist ideals compels death upon those who refuse to worship Allah in equal measure to those who will not convert.
You’re “who cares” attitude is at best a declaration of willingness to worship Allah (if compelled by a change in “government leadership”), or at worst a willingness to throw away your life (and the lives of many others) for lack of dedication to safeguarding those aspects of western culture you seem to so enjoy espousing.
I have to say I disagree about the necessity of keeping religious beliefs out of the public sphere. I would hope that my fellow citizens conduct themselves in accordance with well-formed consciences and moral systems. Pure self-interest gets you only so far. I see no reason to disallow a moral reason simply because it arises from ones religious beliefs, except of course where it interferes with the freedom of others (human sacrifice, for example). Other than that, an ethical issue becomes a political one when it enters the public debate, and can be decided on its merits regardless of its origins.
The imposition of Sharia would fall into this category of unacceptable religious interference because it explicitly violates the rights of women & non-believers. Even if imposed by a majority, it might be democratic but nonetheless certainly offensive to liberty.
There is a fundamental flaw in your argument, Kodiak.
“Kodiak” doesn’t merit a reasoned rebuttal, Lady. He (or she) is a troll. His comments are deliberately provocative in addition to being “fundamentally” flawed. “Abby”, in an earlier comment, suggests that Kodiak is French. Indeed, that would explain much.
Kodiak – Christianity is based on historically provable facts. Islam is not.
Biblical Christianity provides a reasonable and rational framework for viewing the world. Note the advance of humanity through people like Pascal and others like him.
True, many Christians have misbehaved in the past. But don’t throw out the baby with the bath water. Jesus has inspired more charity and good works than any other human in history.
Guys,
What’s a cleric supposed to say, “My religion sucks, I suck, the whole universe sucks! Let’s just hope some enlightened atheist will come along and give us euthanasia?”? Is *that* really what you want a random cleric to be saying? o_O
Sorry, but a cleric who talked that way wouldn’t be doing his job! Quite frankly if saying “Our religion will change the society in which we live!” is the worst thing any cleric does then he’s leading a relatively blameless existence. It’s his hobnobbing with terrorists rather than for this for which he deserves to be busted.
Abby: I am not more entitled than you to have an opinion about France. Fortunately!
I respect your views about scarves at school, but I don’t share them at all. Scarves, crosses, kippas or gri-gris are rightly totally forbidden. Schools are precious places where education & sensibleness are promoted. They are not a circus.
George Peery: do you want to burn me at your Francophobic stake? Vade retro Satanas!
Shae: OK >>> Christian faith was a fertile compost for philosophy & your Pascal example was particularly well chosen. Still forbidding Christianity (or any other religion) within parliamant (or the White House) is all about respecting citizens. Would you appreciate if your local MP had his vaudou amulets rattling while intoning psalmic chants?
Lady Gunner: I 100% agree that Islam, a vain superstition among numerous ones including Christianity & Judaism, has not its place in the national debate about how to conduct the country. Don’t worry even one second: I’m not the only one to fight religious intrusion (incl. islamofascist version of it).
Mitch: needless to say that all opinions are more than welcome, whatever the intellectual background they may originate in. Just religion advertisement is banned.
I don’t know, being a Sufi doesn’t sound too bad….but they’re considered heretics by most other Muslim sects, so I guess that’d be a wash. 🙂
I think what is missing from the koran is that crucial “render unto Caesar” clause. I’m an agnostic and find both christianity and islam equally implausible, but I’d hate like hell to see the US a majority muslim country.
Kodiak,
“Still forbidding Christianity (or any other religion) within parliamant (or the White House) is all about respecting citizens.”
But that’s merely your religion speaking and as such means that you consider it legitimate to suggest that atheists and agnostics should have their life philosophies banned! 😛 (After all, banning atheism and agnosticism from within Parliament (or the White House) is all about respecting citizens, right? ^_~
“Would you appreciate if your local MP had his vaudou amulets rattling while intoning psalmic chants?”
Tsk! You mistaken some of us for people who would care. ^_^
that crucial “render unto Caesar” clause
If I remember rightly that line was about taxation. This is the only christian idea that has the widespread support of the left. I think we could all do without such ideas.
It may be too late for this post, but here’s a talking point:
What if we consigned Islam to the same status that, say, the Druids have?
Try not to get too multi-culti on my ass, boys.
[Ducks.]
[quote]I have no doubt in my mind, Muslims sooner or later will be the moral leadership of America. [/quote]
Depends how you define ‘moral’. If you consider the sanctioning and justifing the murder of innocents to be ‘moral’, then Muslims are capable.
In any other sense of the word, they can’t provide moral leadership anywhere, much less in America.
Never happen.
North America will eventually be overwhelmed by the immigrant tide from Mexico and South America. Since these people are largely Catholic I’d say that America has a much greater chance of becoming completely Catholic than Muslim.
Say in about 50-75 years.
ed
The Snark Who Was Really a Boojum,
Don’t split hairs, will you!
Separating faith from collective conduct of a country (= democracy) is NOT a religion, even though it is supported by fervent atheist & agnostics.
Christians, Jews & Muslims should be the very first to advocate secularism. In their own interest.
I’m sure you’d troll a bit less when appearing before a chariah-like court for having been blasphemating or before the pope for having discovered that the Earth orbits the Sun, not the reverse.
And please, drop this burkah. I can’t see your face. LOL
Abby:
“It is terrorism which emperils America, not proselytizing”
No. It is the fear of terrorism that is the real danger to the America.
Cydonia