Minnesota is not a happy place at the moment, what with the multi-billion-dollar welfare fraud story and now this:
After an immigration agent shot and killed a woman in Minneapolis on Wednesday morning, Secretary of Homeland Security Kristi Noem and President Donald Trump portrayed that use of lethal force as clearly justified. Noem averred that the dead woman, Renee Nicole Good, was engaged in an “act of domestic terrorism” because she was trying to “run a law enforcement officer over.” Trump went even further, saying Good “violently, willfully, and viciously ran over the ICE Officer.” (Reason magazine.)
Bystander video of the incident immediately cast doubt on those accounts. Footage from various angles “appears to show the agent,” later identified as Jonathan Ross, “was not in the path of [Good’s] SUV when he fired three shots at close range,” The New York Times reported on Thursday. “The SUV did move toward the ICE agent as he stood in front of it,” The Washington Post noted. “But the agent was able to move out of the way and fire at least two of three shots from the side of the vehicle as it veered past him.”
I am not going to get into the “who did what?” side of this, but I think that to some extent, this is what happens when people who are pressured to “get results” and operate in a system where they are encouraged to do so. For many years, law enforcement in different countries has had this issue, with the US in the lead. We are seeing the increasing militarisation of law enforcement. Radley Balko, who now works at the Washington Post, has done important work in shining a light on where this is going for many years. Things are seemingly getting worse the current administration but this did not come from nowhere.
Several Samizdata commenters are, if I recall correctly, those with law enforcement experience, so I’d be interested to know what the rights and wrongs are here.
The car hit him – it hit his leg.
And he had previously, in an another incident, been hit by another activist driven car – and had 30 stitches.
The lady who was shot was not some random person – the lady and her “wife” were activists who even sent their children to a “Social Justice” school to be trained to attack.
Do the media really not know any of above? Or do they deliberately leave it out of their “reporting”?
I do not know – but it does take long (a few minutes) to find out, so if the media does not know – it is because they do not WANT to know.
It is the same with election fraud, Covid, and everything else – the media (not just openly leftist publications such as the Washington Post – but supposedly non leftist publications such as the Wall Street Journal) not only refuse to report the truth – they actively cover it up, and attack (sneer at) anyone who tells the truth.
Unfortunately the media seem to be utterly committed to the Progressive agenda of world governance – of which the open borders ideology is part.
This is not acceptable.
If the media insist on Civil War this would be tragic, a terrible tragedy, but they must understand that they are quite likely to be on the losing side in such a Civil War – so it would be in the own interests (it really would) to step back – to just STOP this.
As for law enforcement in Minnesota.
Mr George Floyd died of drugs he willingly consumed, but a police officer (who was falsely smeared as a “racist”) was sent to prison for “murder” – although no murder took place (who was murdered?), to be cut up – knifed. Other police officers were also sent to prison (although not for so long) including an Asian police officer – whose “crime” appears to have been that he was a Christian (how this is a crime, was not explained).
The “justice” system in Minnesota is headed by State Attorney General Mr Keith Ellison – a far leftist, whose hatred (actual hatred) for the principles of law, and for Western civilization, is plain. To be fair to this Gentleman he has never covered it up – that he is an enemy of the United States (as defined under such things as the Insurrection Act) is sadly plain, and he has nothing but hatred for the “capitalist” Constitution that he is supposedly sworn to defend.
There can be no compromise with people such as Mr Ellison or Governor Walz (who is a puppet of these forces).
Sadly it really is the case that they destroy you – or you destroy them. There is no middle ground – not in this situation.
They destroy you, or you destroy them – and that goes for their supporters as well.
It is a “military” situation – as these are not political opponents, they are enemies.
A political opponent accepts the “rules of the game” – the forces of “Social Justice” wish to destroy “the game”, capitalist society, and wipe out their enemies.
So they are not opponents – they are enemies.
Hence such things as the Insurrection Act.
Here’s the best breakdown and analysis both of the incident itself and the law governing it that I’ve seen so far:
https://shipwreckedcrew.substack.com/p/minneapolis-is-not-even-a-close-call
She did purposefully turn the wheels to point the vehicle at the ICE agent. She then purposefully accelerated toward him. Her vehicle (a two ton lethal weapon) did, in fact, strike the agent, but that is irrelevant. In the split second he had to react, any rational person would be in fear of death or great bodily harm as a result of her actions and self-defense is fully justified.
The point behind self defense is to PREVENT yourself from being killed or seriously injured by an assailant. If you have to wait until after they actually kill or seriously injure you before you can take action, kind of defeats the purpose doesn’t it?
https://shipwreckedcrew.substack.com/p/minneapolis-is-not-even-a-close-call
Long, but thorough.
At this point, the opinions of law enforcement are more-or-less meaningless. For what it’s worth, I had serious concerns about this affair until I watched later video from the point of view of the officer who fired the shots. It’s quite clear that the vehicle struck him – you can hear the impact and see the shock as the camera jerks sideways. The fact that this selfsame officer was struck by another vehicle a few months ago and sustained serious (although not life-threatening) injuries, will be another major factor.
What matters at this point are the opinions of lawyers, and the question is quite simple – did he have, in that instant, a fear of death or serious injury to himself, or to others, that made his use of deadly force “reasonable”? What she thought or intended or did or did not do is immaterial – all that matters is what he thought in that instant. While the question is very simple, finding an answer will be very hard. And at this point, the legal answer is more-or-less immaterial, because those who need this unfortunate death for their own political ends have already made up their minds and no mere jury verdict is going to change them.
llater,
llamas
Heh. Two minds, with but a single thought. . . .
llater,
llamas
And – Sailorcurt, with all due respect, your post illustrates how hard it is to stay within the lines the law sets out. You say the victim did things ‘purposefully’, when you actually have no way of knowing why she did, what she did. She may have been unaware of the officer’s location, she may have misjudged his motion and thought she would not strike him, her foot may have slipped or misapplied the gas pedal. The best you can say is that she did what she did ‘voluntarily’, or by choice, but you cannot make any judgement as to her purpose, and indeed, neither coukd the officer in that moment. Maybe if she had a PA system on the roof of her car and was yelling ‘I’ll run you down!’, the question of her ‘purpose’ might be relevant to the officer’s state of mind, but she didn’t and it isn’t. As it is, assertions about whether she did what she did ‘purposefully’ all tend to try and justify the officer’s actions, when they should not have any bearing whatever on that judgement.
llater,
llamas
I know a few J6’ers who would be rolling on the floor and laughing at this statement.
So far this weekend, I’ve been hit with an ICE pepperball, and had a car window broken out by a purple-haired screaming bitch. And it’s still just Sunday morning. This is what happens when you’re in the overlap spot in the Venn diagram.
P.S. Every state has its own Use Of Deadly Force statute. In Minnesota, it’s M.S. 609.066.
This is the state law standard by which the officer will be judged, assuming an ICE officer qualifies as a “peace officer.
Bobby: J6ers?
but I think that to some extent, this is what happens when people who are pressured to “get results” and operate in a system where they are encouraged to do so. For many years, law enforcement in different countries has had this issue, with the US in the lead. We are seeing the increasing militarisation of law enforcement.
Although I think there is some truth to this statement, this is not that. The situation with ICE is simply one of ongoing, systematic, organized and deliberate interference with the just execution of federal law. If you are doing that it is not going to go well. These agents are not armed with machine guns, it is a bit deceptive, the things that look like rifles are actually pepper spray guns. Of course all police in the USA carry a side arm. So the death of this woman is a not at all surprising outcome of the systematic and often violent resistance to the legitimate use of police force to deport people here illegally, usually very bad people.
In regards to this specific incident, I think the officer is going to be either not charged or acquitted because the feds take jurisdiction here. If it were in a state court in Hennepin county they would undoubtedly do a Chauvin on him. Most lawyers I know say this is a clear case of self defense. Was the car a threat to him — hell yes, the video evidence is clear that it actually hit him. Me? I’m not a lawyer but what I will say is that looking at the video he fired one shot while she was hitting him which was surely justified, but after he rolled off the side he seemed to fire two more shots through the side window when he was clearly out of danger. Was that just adrenaline? Did I misjudge the video? I don’t know. He was in contact with the car for too short a time to discharge his weapon three times, and based on the sound of the shots it seems to me that two were after he was at the side and out of danger. But I also recognize two things — it is a hugely difficult situation and hindsight is 20/20, but I also recognize that if you are a LEO you are supposed to be trained to handle these difficult situations well.
So I think this is a difficult case — if the first shot killed her then the subsequent shots don’t matter, but if one of the other shots killed her I think is is a lot less clear cut and we need a very careful review of the evidence.
Where most people stand on this is far more to do with their thoughts on whether ICE are Nazis or fulfilling their obligations enforcing federal law — which seems pretty much split down the middle. I think the happiest man in America though is Tim Walz who is going all in to use this to distract the country from the torrent of evidence of his and his administration’s corruption, fecklessness and malfeasance.
Just an FYI, this is not a settled issue.
Sorry, shorthand here doesn’t always translate. 1000 or so defendants from the January 6, 2021 protest at the US capital.
@bobby b
Just an FYI, this [jurisdiction] is not a settled issue.
OK, I thought as a federal officer acting in his capacity it was clearly in their jurisdiction, but you sure as hell know a lot more about it than me. For sure, which way that goes will entirely determine this man’s fate. I remember Chauvin’s trial where the courthouse was surrounded by mobs ready to lynch any jury member unwilling to go along with the narrative, Molotov cocktails in hand ready to burn down the city were they not to get their way. Managed by a police force whose leadership would rather the city burned to the ground than that they misgender someone. I would expect nothing less here for this man.
I was scrolling down the page to make this very point. The screaming left in the US think they are at war with the authorities but scream louder when the authorities fight back.
It is possible the media really do not know the basic facts of this case.
Or of the case of Mr Floyd and Officer Chauvin.
Or the facts about Covid.
Or the facts about anything at all.
It is possible that I am assuming bad intent – when all that is at work is honest ignorance.
But I still find this baffling – as I have no difficulty at all in finding out the facts basic matters, such as election fraud.
I am still inclined to the view that the media do not know (for example do not know the facts about these leftist activists – one of whom is no longer in this world) because they do-not-want-to-know.
This was not the first time this ICE agent had been attacked – he had been severely injured in another car attack, and he did NOT fully avoid this car attack, he was hit again – although, thankfully, not so seriously this time.
As for the leftist activists – they must understand that if they insist (insist) on Civil War, even sending their children to “Social Justice” schools to be taught to attack, that Civil War will be fought.
That Civil War, if they insist upon it, will be fought – and the left, the media and so on, are likely to lose that Civil War – and to no longer be in this world.
So please stop pushing for Civil War, it is in your interests (Washington Post crowd and so on) to step back.
As for J6.
It is now clear, as if there was any real doubt, that the 2020 Presidential Election was rigged – that there was massive election fraud.
It is also the case that the people who entered the Capitol Building did so on the urging of Agent Provocateurs – working for the FBI and other agencies.
Just as some people said at-the-time.
For the media to continue to deny the above facts – is not acceptable.
It’s not that I know more about it, it’s that I know that we both know less about it than we suspect. If that makes any sense.
Triggered by the murders of 80 or so people in Waco by the feds back in ’93, there has been a lot of discussion about what rights the states retain in such situations. Books have been written on this very issue. The Texas state authorities in the end decided not to attempt to charge the FBI agents involved – just too much of a legal mess, plus they were politically aligned – but there is no definitive answer as to what they could have done.
Might be a moot question anyway. Our esteemed MN Attorney General Keith Ellison announced this morning that, if the State and Hennepin County both decide to avoid that fight for now, there is no statute of limitations time period for murder, and so they will simply wait for the next Democrat presidential administration, and either have the fed DOJ charge the officer then, or charge him with state crimes knowing the DOJ will waive its own jurisdiction.
Either way, the officer’s future is grim. A trial in Hennepin County will be a kangaroo trial, much like Chauvin’s.
(ETA: When I say his future is grim, I do think that, on currently-available evidence, he SHOULD prevail, but even then, the process is the punishment. Chauvin should have prevailed, too.)
@bobby b
Might be a moot question anyway. Our esteemed MN Attorney General Keith Ellison announced this morning that, if the State and Hennepin County both decide to avoid that fight for now, there is no statute of limitations time period for murder, and so they will simply wait for the next Democrat presidential administration, and either have the fed DOJ charge the officer then, or charge him with state crimes knowing the DOJ will waive its own jurisdiction.
Perhaps the best course of action for this officer is for the DOJ to prosecute him in a MN federal court where the jury is drawn from the many sensible people of MN who do not live in the twin cities and either be acquitted, thus protecting him with double jeopardy, or were he convicted be pardoned by the President. Sometimes it is better to yank off the band-aid. Of course a civil lawsuit which will inevitably follow could very well destroy the man but at least that is only money rather than liberty.
And whatever happens you can be sure of death and destruction in the Minneapolis and no doubt many other cities across the country. No doubt there will be violent protests in London too, because… some people just like to yell a lot and some people just like to watch the world burn.
You might want to consider getting out of Minnesota and move to somewhere less insane, like Southern California, Moscow or North Korea.
And BTW, Go Bears.
I was in Minneapolis for the Covid lockdown. I was in town for Chauvin’s trial. I saw the charred remains of Uncle Hugo’s Science Fiction Bookstore. I moved out just in time to avoid the daycare fundng scandal, let alone on this latest suicide-by-cop.
And I can be sure of one thing: if any officer of the law does anything upsetting to the left, they will not get a fair trial. The screaming, burning, smashing mob will make sure of it. It would be a death sentence to be on the jury that acquits him.
Unless, of course, the defendant is a black muslim officer who shot a white Republican.
I’m white and conservative. Suddenly I feel much safer having moved to a red state. Minnesota has lost its collective mind.
Fraser Orr:
You said, “I’m not a lawyer but what I will say is that looking at the video he fired one shot while she was hitting him which was surely justified, but after he rolled off the side he seemed to fire two more shots through the side window when he was clearly out of danger.”
From the best of the videos it is clear that he fired his first two, and possibly all three, shots from IN FRONT OF the vehicle. The physical evidence of this is conclusive since there is one bullet hole entering the windshield, and then a second one entering from the FRONT of the rear-view mirror. Unless you’ve got access to some top-secret super-duper target chasing bullets that can make U-turns, this means those shots were fired while he was IN FRONT OF the SUV. I do not see any evidence of him pulling the trigger once the vehicle has slewed around and he has dodged off to the driver-side and is sticking his firearm through the open window…at whom I cannot tell, but it might be either the driver or the passenger. In any case he showed tremendous restraint since most untrained people would panic and do a magazine-dump. He fired until the threat to his life was ended, and then he stopped.
Personally I’d like to know the caliber of pistol he was using and what type of ammunition it was…a one-shot stop (apparently his other two missed) is pretty amazing to anyone who knows about personal defence. Is ICE using the 9mm Euro-pellet? Is it the .40 S&W (short & weak)? Whatever it was his ammuntion defeated the barrier of the windshield with enough oomph left over to fatally wound the driver.
I’ve been carrying a firearm for over 20 years and have never drawn it except at the range or to clean it. I hope I never have to, but if I do, I hope that I (and my ammo) perform as well as this officer did.
1) I will note that I am a long retired Commissioned Peace Officer who wore the badge for almost 3 decades.
2) I will say that the evidence cited by Mr. Marks above matches my view of the specific case under discussion.
3) For a society, any society under any system of law, to be a “law-abiding” society the validity of the laws passed has to be accepted by an overwhelming majority of that society.
4) We seem to be on the edge of that boundary now. This may have consequences.
5) One of the absolute markers of national sovereignty is the ability to decide who crosses your borders and is allowed to stay under what conditions. Hostile foreign invaders who consider themselves outside the law are neither immigrants nor refugees.
6) A huge percentage of those detained by ICE have been convicted of felony violations of our criminal laws here beyond illegal entry and thus have no right to remain here in any case.
7) As an American of Chinese ancestry, I well note that ethnic prejudices can distort the fair enforcement of the law. Until 1943, under US Federal law, Chinese were specifically NOT considered to be human beings. Past injustices do not void the enforcement of current laws that are themselves not unjust.
Subotai Bahadur
If, as stated above, the point of self defense is to prevent harm to yourself, can someone explain to me how shooting a driver accelerating towards you from 3 feet away possibly meets that definition? At the point he shot her there was no way in hell killing her would have any effect on the situation, except make it possibly worse. Had he simply stepped aside, which even the stupidest person on the face of the Earth would realize is the safest path, he could then reassess and determine if she was an actual threat.
@Blackwing1 the honest truth is I don’t know and there is a need for a detailed forensic investigation, but as you point out there was only one bullet hole in the glass and her side window was wound down. So either he hit the glass with one bullet and the others missed completely (which is certainly possible — presumably the impact would have caused his aim to be defected), or he continued to discharge after he rolled off through the side window.
It is really hard to tell and the three shots were fired in about one second. But if you look at this video and if you look particularly at this screen shot you can see the agent standing to the side and a puff of smoke coming from a discharge of his firearm.
Also, if you look at this video in slow motion from his phone you can see where he is facing (or at least his camera is facing) and hear the three shots, and to me he seems to clearly be facing away from the car for two of the shots, and looking at it in the previous video he was only doing that until after the car was no longer in contact with him.
Like I say, I don’t know, and I’d like to see the forensics, the most troubling thing I see is the still image above where he is clearly out of danger and seemed to continue shooting. Of course high pressure, no 20/20 hindsight, all I’m saying is that it is not, to me anyway, clear cut that this was as simple as either side is saying. I am VERY sympathetic to the ICE agent, but I am also trying not to allow my biases shape the facts, and think we all should be open minded about what actually happened. And if my analysis is correct it depends on whether the first, justifiable shot killed her, or not. And only the medical examiner can determine that.
As to the information you presented about the mirror, I haven’t seen it, so can’t comment.
A little more skepticism is in order before rushing to the hand-wringing.
The Left has been trying to kick off La Revolution for the last few years… they realize this may be their last chance.
Remember George Floyd? Same state, same bolshie leadership – just more desperate now that their corruption is exposed.
Yes that’s right – this is the same Left-leaning state in which the death of a violent drug addict was spun into another Children’s Crusade of victimhood, with months of violence… burning down entire neighborhoods over nothing.
To prudishly wring one’s hands and talk about how THE COPS are “under pressure for results” is absolutely gormless and tone-deaf… it is the Dems who are pouring on incendiary rhetoric, hoping that one of their more unbalanced followers will light the match that kicks off more intentional “chaos”.
You really got this one ass-backwards.
Fortunately the citizens – remembering the fires and violence last time – understand the tactic, and have mostly refused to play along.
The outrage is limited to the small group of corrupt pols, political “organizers”, and True Believer.
@Bob Smith
If, as stated above, the point of self defense is to prevent harm to yourself, can someone explain to me how shooting a driver accelerating towards you from 3 feet away possibly meets that definition?
It is very easy to type that in your comfortable house playing multiple angles in slow motion, but when someone is a lethal threat, shooting is often the natural reaction. Plus if she had hostile intent she may well have tried to catch him in such a way to drag him or drive over his body — something that had recently happened to this specific officer causing him great injury and no doubt trauma. This is compounded by the fact that she was fleeing arrest and had been very belligerent to that officer all day.
I can’t find the video right now I’ll try to find, buy Megyn Kelly showed a video of a female cop in almost identical situation where a driver DID actually kill her by driving over her body. This happened quite recently. (Apologies, I don’t have the details right now.)
Shooting the woman takes her intent out of the picture, and leaves the officer only to predict outcomes by the laws of physics rather than the malicious intent of a potentially homicidal adversary.
And you are mistaken if you think he could have stepped aside in time, it was clear that he simply did not have time to do that.
FWIW, based on what I see I don’t actually think the woman was trying to hit the cop, she was simply trying to get away and avoid arrest. But for sure there is no way the officer could have known her intent. So in a sense I think it was a tragic accident with dreadful consequences.
At the point he shot her there was no way in hell killing her would have any effect on the situation, except make it possibly worse.
And you think it is reasonable to expect him to make that assessment in the 250 milliseconds he had to make the call? And, FWIW, even with your cool, calculated time to assess, I don’t think you are right as I explained above. So why don’t you and I spend the next three days debating that, and impose of the officer the expectation that he can make that assessment in under half a second.
Were I in a punny mood, I might say that, no, Minneapolis has found its collective mind.
It’s the Borg.
The two saddest things in all of this are this woman’s three kids, one of which has now lost both natural parents, and bobby b’s correct assessment that “Either way, the officer’s future is grim.”
I hope we can figure out how to come to this officer’s aid! I’m sure there will be a GoFundMe for him should he need attorneys or entry into a witness protection program, but the crazies will be literally gunning for him. How can we help there?
“It’s the Borg”, yes! But resistance is NOT futile!
Fraser Orr:
And you think it is reasonable to expect him to make that assessment in the 250 milliseconds he had to make the call?
————————-
That is exactly what is wrong with so many of the middle and upper class people in these stories. The wealth and safety of the West have completely insulated several generations of college people from real violence and its consequences.
That blind spot led this woman to think she was invincible, that the regular rules did not apply to her – like many suburbanites who, in their boredom, have romanticized the idea of revolution.
The same blind spot afflicts many of the hair-splitters and hand-wringers now second-guessing a guy (probably not of their class…) who actually was trained for violence, and has actually encountered it, repeatedly…
But what does some working class slob know?
Nothing gave me more respect for officers in situations like this – and more contempt for idiots playing with the tinderbox of violence – than receiving actual training in rifle use when I moved to Israel, and actually participating in security patrols around our village.
As Mike Tyson used to say when he grew tired of commentators – “Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.”
Bobby:
Unknown unknowns.
Lots of people seem to think that this affair has important political implications. I don’t: I am interested in it as an intellectual exercise, akin to reading a mystery. But i am equally interested in it as corroboration of my theory that the modern Western diet causes brain damage.
I’ll expand on this tomorrow — if i feel like it.
It would be evolution in action were she a bit younger and childless, so I’ll have to settle for an object lesson in evolution for other, younger, leftist hags.
I think the officer was careless in the face of the vicious hostility of the two twats, but even so…
Here’s my minor issue: the reports I’ve seen say he fired 3 shots. There is only one hole in the windscreen. WTF?
Timely reminder:
https://youtu.be/X4NUDqJ9Ulg?si=kafBCRT088Hf5Q8S
Several people have scoffed at my point about ICE operatives being under pressure to reach targets of deporting so many suspected illegal immigrants, but there is plenty of reporting about how that is actually the case. You don’t need to search the internet for very long to find stories such as this:
The Trump administration is not satisfied with the pace of deportations and is therefore going to replace some officials at Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) with Border Patrol (CBP) officers, whose tactics are more aggressive than those employed by ICE agents.
The government has not officially announced the changes, but several media outlets have reported that a dozen ICE directors, who oversee 25 local offices nationwide, will be reassigned in the coming days. At least half of the vacancies will be filled by CBP officials.
“The mentality is CBP does what they’re told, and the administration thinks ICE isn’t getting the job done,” an official from the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), which oversees both agencies, told CBS. “So CBP will do it.”
ICE is a state-run organisation, and it has been given a set of objectives. It would be naive, given what we know about the dynamics of state organisations, not to think that those pressures to make targets – such as so many arrests – is not going to lead to problems without ensuring there are strict rules in place, as well as what might be called “rules of engagement”. And then there has been the problem of ICE people wearing face coverings and removing official insignia, which is bound to lead to something going very wrong eventually. I understand there are legislative moves to require ICE folk to not conceal who they are. See a link here and here.
I haven’t talked about the specifics of this Minnesota case – I see that most of those who have seem to think that the ICE person did nothing wrong, or at least is not guilty of murder. I don’t know what the truth is. I did, however, come across this comment on Sustack from someone who purports to know a bit about how these things work. He cited a law enforcement officer called Kramer Hammy.
“All the News That’s Fit to Print” (first used October 25, 1896)
A more recent version:
“All the News that Fits to Print”
Jonathan Pearce – the blanket claims by your Substack source are pretty easily refuted – see the lengthy, detailed explanation linked earlier:
https://shipwreckedcrew.substack.com/p/minneapolis-is-not-even-a-close-call
If those claims were true, ICE officera could hardly fulfill their jobs. This isnt a desk job.
Plenty of cases where liberal “freedom fighters” were arrested for obstructing ICE – were they all extralegal?
Aaaaand there is no shortage of illegals with outstanding paperwork in the areas targeted by ICE.
Aaaaand what exactly is the connection to this situation? Why should such a quota be a factor – say, more than this woman trailing, taunting, and obstructing officers for hours immediately prior?
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
in regards to Minessota law it may not necessarily be applicable to the officer in question because he is a federal employee and federal employees have immunity from state law while carrying out their duties. of course there are some exceptions but i suspect in this case the officer would be safe from state law unless the Federal government affirmed he was acting outside of his duties.
my understanding also is that ice agents are allowed to arrest you if they personally witness you committing a federal crime. There is a yahoo article (https://www.yahoo.com/news/us/article/can-ice-agents-detain-us-citizens-what-powers-do-they-have-to-arrest-people-your-most-common-questions-answered-194725171.html) that says:
> ICE can detain citizens if they allegedly commit a crime, such as interfering with an immigration operation or assaulting officers. ProPublica’s list includes 130 people who were held for alleged infractions, though those cases “often wilted under scrutiny” and very few resulted in convictions.
One thing that does interest me about this case, is whether people, including myself, would have believed the false-media-narrative in the pre internet age.
For example, the media show photographs of a long haired woman (out of date photograph – and they know it is out of date) – to drum up sympathy for the activist who hit the ICE officer with the car – in reality the activist had a shaven head.
But would I have known that in the pre internet age? Or would I have just believed what the television and newspapers showed me?
Ditto Fraser Nelson says “the videos show that the officer was not hit” – the officer WAS hit (and not for the first time). But again would I have known that Mr Nelson, and the rest of the media, was not telling truth – known before I had any means to check for myself.
I wonder how many things I believed, in my youth, because I watched them on television (with camera tricks – such as the camera tricks that were used in the case of Officer Derek Chauvin and the death of Mr Floyd) or read them newspapers, were also lies.
I doubt anyone believes otherwise. You don’t send in upwards of 3000 agents into an area without large expectations.
Don’t you just hate seeing immigration law enforced? After four years of our federal government choosing to simply not enforce an entire chapter of federal statutes already on the books, this is what it looks like to have to go back and catch up. Not like old England, where more humane conditions apply. We SHOULD be looking to how you guys did it. ;/
It sucks here right now. I have both friends and family who have been here for decades, illegally. Never bothered to pursue citizenship, because it was costly and complex. But for all of those decades, it worked. We had a kind of equilibrium, a stasis, where a small number of illegals were just ignored. Worked well for all.
Biden screwed that up by throwing the doors wide open for anyone and everyone – mostly skells and thugs, sadly – he let them in by the millions. And every existing long-term illegal Hispanic in the country hated him for it. Why do you think Trump did so well with the Hispanic vote in 2024? Wasn’t because they all decided to become free marketers. It was because Biden was completely screwing up their existing lives. They KNEW the backlash that would occur as soon as Biden was out.
And now we have Walz and Ellison and Omar, all caught up in the multi-billion-dollar Somali fraud regime, desperately casting about for something – anything – to take the public’s attention from their upcoming indictments, and so they’re attacking and ridiculing Trump, who we all know reacts calmly to everything. In this case, he reacted by tripling the ICE surge into Minnesota. So Our Hispanic population again blame the Dems for this mess. This huge surge took the public eye off of their fraud, just as those scum wanted.
We are undergoing a world of hurt here in Minnesota, brought on by Democrat criminality. There is no way the state can continue to fund the sheer number of illegals Biden brought in. Most of the population is angrily supportive of ICE right now, and so I think we’re in a period where some ICE legal overstep is going to be welcomed and allowed.
(I’ll leave the fisking of your article to the ex-cops here.)
But the “libertarian” approach to immigration law, as you seemingly present here, is a dead loss. We are not England, we’ll not be giving our country away.
Johnathan Pearce wrote:
“Several people have scoffed at my point about ICE operatives being under pressure to reach targets of deporting so many suspected illegal immigrants, but there is plenty of reporting about how that is actually the case.”
I don’t know how to break it to you, but ‘targets of deporting . . . illegal immigrants” is one of many things that a large majority voted for just-over a year ago. Personally, I think that a group of immigration-enforcement officers who are handed a large pile of open-and-shut deportation cases, some going back decades, should be given performance targets. It’s not a question of overcoming buyer preferences to meet your sales target for single-handle kitchen faucets – they have a virtually-endless list of known bad guys, already convicted and adjudicated, in such a target-filled environment they should be required to perform to certain standards. Not capturing and deporting enough illegals is how Minnesota (and the rest of the country) got into the mess it’s in – it’s time we tried doing the other thing.
bobby b’s point about the prior status quo – tacit acceptance of a certain number of more-or-less illegals who didn’t cause trouble – is an important one. I know a couple of people whose families have been completely disrupted by this – quiet overstayers who kept their heads down, paid taxes and generally navigated the cracks in a system not-very-interested in searching them out – and all because a succession of administrations unleashed such a flood of illegals into the country that they are now caught up in the inevitable backlash. So we lose productive and generally law-abiding people because of an invasion of criminals.
llater,
llamas
llamas – I have a couple of grandbabies who look like a combo of Thor and Pancho Villa, and my co-abuelos lack papers. So I get to stand ICE watch today at the entrance to their semi-gated community. My turn in the rotation. Talk about conflicted!
Although, yes, one must ALSO be careful of stuff on the internet.
For example, a video on TikTok supposedly showing the Cardinal Archbishop of Chicago ordering ICE agents out of the cathedral in Chicago has a eleven million views.
The video is fake – the incident never-happened.
What you need to do is not only look at pictures – but ask “who took these pictures, do I trust this person?”
In 2020 and 2022 I personally watched (via the wonders of modern technology) election fraud taking place – for example registered Republican poll watchers being ordered out of some (some – not all) counting centers (that is illegal – and the mass mail in ballots were also unlawful in some of the States), and (in 2022) people going to vote in Arizona and being turned away because of “problems with the voting machines”.
That is how I knew the Wall Street Journal was lying when it claimed there was no fraud in 2020 and 2022.
bobby b. – I understand ‘conflicted’ very well. I too can’t quite see myself dropping a dime on persons I know full-well to be here illegally, but who are quiet, otherwise-law-abiding and contributing members of society. The double stadard is at odds with the American idea of a nation of laws.
I wish there were a way/ways to differentiate. I was somewhat-in-favour of ideas like DACA, and TPS programmes to favour those who have worked in the interests of the US, but then of course those programmes are immediately overwhelmed and co-opted as yet-another avenue to admit countless illegals regardless of background. So I’m afraid that the outcomes will always fall on the harsher side of the balance.
llater,
llamas
llamas – this is why the order is “get the worst out first”.
There are many millions of illegals – only some of them are violent gang members, or (illegally) claiming government benefits or services.
The order is to get them out first – and, as it happens, they are easier to track down. Police records for arrests, or illegally trying to get benefits (such as Food Stamps) or access to other services – they leave a “paper trail”.
The worst are actually the least difficult to find.
For example, the two violent gang member illegal immigrants who were shot in Portland (Oregon) a few days ago.
The local police would not touch them – but ICE dealt with them. And the place is slightly less violent with them gone.
Although, yes, there are plenty of native-born violent lunatics in Portland – the police dare not touch them either.
Johnathan Pearce – I hope no one is “scoffing” when you say that ICE agents are under pressure to do their jobs and arrest as many illegals as they can, that “claim” of yours is TRUE – it is a very tough job (for example the families of ICE agents are threatened with rape and murder – which is why some ICE agents choose to wear masks) it is indeed “high pressure”.
But that is not really relevant to this particular case – the women was not a “motorist”, she and her “wife” or “partner” were both leftist activists (even sending children to a “Social Justice” school to be trained to attack) – they went there to attack, and they attacked an officer who had already been sent to hospital by a previous car attack, and, contrary to Fraser Nelson, the car in this attack did hit him.
A car or truck can be a very dangerous weapon – in Nice a few years ago a follower of Islam used a truck to kill 80 people (not eight – eighty).
This particular officer had already been sent to hospital in a previous car attack.
By the way – the alternative to ICE is not a more “non military police” action, as if illegals, and their leftist supporters, are just go to submit to some 1950s style “Bobby on the beat”.
The alternative to ICE is to invoke the Insurrection Act and send in the army – to deal with the Mayor, Governor, the State Attorney General, and so on.
Does Minneapolis want a visit from the 101st Airborne Division? No? Then the Mayor, Governor, State Attorney General Keith Ellison and so on, need to back off – stand down. Stop violating Federal Immigration Law – and stop their other insurrectionist activities. Keith Ellison may think of himself as a great Revolutionary Leader who has (by some master stroke of mental activity) managed to combine Marxism and Islam – but he is not really the tough guy he believes himself to be, as the 101st Airborne Division would be only too happy to explain to him – and to Mayor Mamdani in New York City as well. Remember President Eisenhower used the army in “civil rights” disputes – if President Eisenhower could use the army so can President Trump, athough he does NOT want to do so.
ICE is the civilian option.
Rightly or wrongly it was established in 1861 to 1865 that State and local governments have to obey the Federal Government and may not leave the Union – 600 thousand people (out of population of was it 40 million?) died proving that point.
If Sherman can burn Atlanta – then Minneapolis can also burn, after all the left had no problem with burning some areas of it in 2020. The insurrectionists need to back off, stand down. Then there will be peace – there is no need for any violence on either side.
The illegals will be removed, and improved border defenses will prevent their return, and the leftist activists can go back to making speeches (to no one in particular) about their evil (profoundly evil) “Social Justice” concept.
Finally – to people who believe that election fraud never happens.
In that case the people of Minnesota, or rather of the Twin Cities area, voted for Keith Ellison to be State Attorney General (in charge of the “justice” system of the State) not once – but twice. This would mean that they endorse his rejection of the principles of the Common Law and hate the Constitution (State and Federal) as he does – that they endorse his weird (contradictory) mixture of Marxism and Islam.
In short – that they are as bad as he is. No wonder juries in this area behave as they do.
John Adams had some words about who was fit for self government – and who was NOT.
And President Grant (many decades later) agreed.
“when you actually have no way of knowing why she did, what she did. She may have been unaware of the officer’s location, she may have misjudged his motion and thought she would not strike him, her foot may have slipped or misapplied the gas pedal.”
When I say “purposefully” what I mean is that she did it. It is not reasonable to believe that she accidentally turned the wheels, put the car in reverse, backed up several feet, turned the wheels again the opposite direction, took the car out of reverse and put it into drive and then slipped and hit the gas pedal accidentally. That simply is not plausible. The sequence of events itself belies that possibility.
I can’t speak to what she was thinking. It doesn’t matter. The officer was standing to the right of her car, she backed up and turned the wheels so that the car was then pointed at him, she then turned the wheel so the car was being steered in his direction and hit the gas.
Whether she intended to hit him, kill him, brush him aside or miss him entirely and was just trying to get away is irrelevant to whether she took those actions…those things are facts.
In that moment, the cop also didn’t know what she was thinking, he only knew that she had just taken the actions necessary to point her two ton lethal weapon at him and “pull the trigger” by accelerating toward him. Maybe she wasn’t trying to hit him, but, again, self defense doesn’t require you to wait until you’re under the wheels to defend yourself. She posed an imminent threat of death or great bodily harm and self defense was warranted, regardless of her thoughts or intentions.
“Several people have scoffed at my point about ICE operatives being under pressure to reach targets of deporting so many suspected illegal immigrants, but there is plenty of reporting about how that is actually the case. ”
I’d feel a lot happier if there was a stated target. With a number.
A question to the legal experts:
A law enforcing officer is trying to detain a suspect. The suspect disobeys the order to stop and tries to flee. To what extent does the law permit the officer to use force to restrain and detain the suspect? And lethal force (shooting)? [supposing the fleeing suspect does not threaten the officer]?
Because this is what seems to have happened here.
Also in the George Floyd case.
Jacob – would that your question had a straightforward answer. As regards fleeing from an officer, there are as many answers to your question, as there are states, counties, municipalities and courts. The only answer one can give is ‘it depends . . . ‘
The matter of deadly force is somewhat-more-clear, but only somewhat. Deadly force is only meant to be deployed when an officer reasonably believes that there is a real and imminent threat of death or great bodily injury and no lesser amount of force will suffice to terminate that threat. But you will grasp that even that standard has a million shades of grey and that the answer is still ‘it depends . . . ‘.
You suggest that in the instant case, the ‘fleeing’ suspect ‘does not threaten’ the officer, and I suggest to you that the video evidence alone, that has been so far made oublic, is capable of many other interpretations.
In the case of Mr Floyd, it is quite a different matter. He was not fleeing when he died, he was in handcuffs and restrained (because he continually, repeatedly struggled with the officers when restraints were slackened). The restraint used on him, the neck hold, was not and is not generally considered to be lethal force, and was in fact trained to the officers as a less-than-lethal technique to be used as part of a continuum-of-force profile to be deployed against uncooperative suspects. The officers were justified in using that minimum amount of force required to restrain him from injuring them and (to a certain degree) himself in his continual struggles to evade arrest and escape. The initial post-mortem found no cause of death that could be the result of the neck hold – it was only after the rioting began that this was miraculously discovered. So I’m not quite sure where you are finding meaningful analogies between the two cases.
llater,
llamas
@Johnathan Pearce
Several people have scoffed at my point about ICE operatives being under pressure to reach targets of deporting so many suspected illegal immigrants, but there is plenty of reporting about how that is actually the case.
But why is that a bad thing? There is an ocean of criminal behavior with regards to immigration law so, with the understanding that they are using a spoon to empty the ocean, a quota doesn’t seem at all unreasonable to me to gain some measure of performance and some measure of accountability to the American people who elected the leaders of the organization. We wanted this criminality to stop and so we want to make sure our law enforcement officers are doing what we have instructed them to do.
The Trump administration is not satisfied with the pace of deportations and is therefore going to replace some officials at Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) with Border Patrol (CBP) officers, whose tactics are more aggressive than those employed by ICE agents.
Indeed. The civil service is full of people resisting Trump’s agenda, an agenda on which he was elected. And if he was elected for one reason it was to solve the immigration crisis. So, if the enforcement agencies are not doing what we the voter told them to do, they need to clear out of the way.
On no planet should an officer, agent, or any human being ever step in front of a car in ‘drive’ that is actively trying to leave and use their body as a shield to prevent a person from LEGALLY LEAVING
Which makes me question whether this guy even watched the video — that isn’t what happened at all. The officer was walking round the front of a vehicle which had been stationary for quite a while to assist his colleagues on the other side, and, while he was doing so, she reversed and then hit the gas.
“You can see the wheels are turned, [Renee] backed up and turned them to the right
Yeah you can, with multiple video angles and three hours to cogitate. The officer had 200 milliseconds to do so without the ability to even see the wheels. So this expectation is ridiculous.
None of this would have happened if those agents had done even one single thing correctly. Not just correctly, but within their legal scope of authority.
Who is this guy? He is just plain wrong. For example some charges they can bring:
* Obstruction of federal officers under 18 U.S.C. § 111 (assaulting, resisting, opposing, impeding, intimidating, or interfering with federal officers in the performance of their duties).
* Under 8 U.S.C. § 1357(a)(5), ICE officers can make warrantless arrests for any offense against the United States
If you are interested here is the specific law which indicates their powers without a warrant for example.
She was CLEARLY impeding their work and interfering with federal officers in performance of their duties. It would be insane were that not the case. And do you really think that when ICE raids some factory full of illegal immigrants they can arrest Juan for whom they have a warrant but not Maria for whole they don’t?
Just scroll through his homepage (yeah, I know, ad hominem)
@Jacob
Leaving aside the fact that the ‘fleeing suspect’ in this case very much DID threaten the officer, your question is answered quite comprehensively by the Substack article linked by Sailorcurt and llamas above. Here is the link again: https://shipwreckedcrew.substack.com/p/minneapolis-is-not-even-a-close-call
Paul Marks – re, getting the worst out first:. In Minnesota, that ship has sailed. Trump and the Mn government are at war. I gave a few mini-seminars to people on probable cause – when you can be pulled over, when you can be asked for ID – and ICE has now blown right past those rules. Everyone remotely brown is being pulled over and hassled. I look pretty dang Norwegian, and I’ve been stopped 3 times because I’m in the wrong area (which isn’t even in Minneapolis – 30 miles south.)
I fear we’re losing this war, due to ICE’s zeal and willingness to ignore the rules.
I want to say that Jonathan Pearce is an old school libertarian and he has immense respect from me for that reason. I totally understand his inclination to call into question the behavior of cops who shoot citizens. I find myself in a really weird place these days. I have railed against the police’s behavior for most of my adult life, but the left wing crazies have become so crazy I find myself more and more on the side of the police. They still do stuff that scares the bejeezus out of me but their crazy is eclipsed by the pathological crazy of the TDS people.
I am really concerned that we might have something akin to a civil war, not formal battles, but a dramatic uprising of civil rest attempting to overthrow the government. And in all my wildest dreams I would never have though I, a hard core libertarian, would be on the side of the state in such a conflagration. But these are very unusual times we live in. I mean don’t get me wrong, they can fuck off with their censorship garbage and their lock down garbage and their incessant taxing garbage and their neo-con invading foreign countries garbage, but when it comes to civil order… well I can’t even bring myself to write the words.
In the meantime I will continue to read and learn from the deep, principled commentary that Jonathan brings here, even when I disagree with him occasionally.
Jacob:
I think the point here is not that the lady was trying to flee, she appeared to have been trying to run the agent over. In that case, he would have been justified in shooting in self-defence.
As to the wider question of the Democrat party, surely the time is now long passed when it it clear it is an organised conspiracy against the United States? It needs to be investigated under RICO and closed down, and its senior figures measured up for orange jump suits.
Ben David: Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
My point about ICE having targets of people to arrest is that when an organisation such as ICE, or whatever, is in such a situation, then without strict due process of law and the rest in place, bad things can happen. (The idea of them not wearing insignia, and being able to mask up, was beyond stupid.) Now, several of the commentators here approve of what ICE is doing to find alleged illegal immigrants and deport them. But you’d have to be wilfully blind not to wonder at some of the episodes that have led to worries about ICE’s respect for due process, and as a result, pushback and anger is inevitable. That does not mean the various Leftist troublemakers are not making mischief. They clearly area. Two things can be correct at the same time.
I would like to see what people can see to rebut Radley Balko’s take on the situation here and here.
bobby b: It sucks here right now. I have both friends and family who have been here for decades, illegally. Never bothered to pursue citizenship, because it was costly and complex. But for all of those decades, it worked. We had a kind of equilibrium, a stasis, where a small number of illegals were just ignored. Worked well for all. Biden screwed that up by throwing the doors wide open for anyone and everyone – mostly skells and thugs, sadly – he let them in by the millions.
I can understand that point – the Biden presidency was awful and fanned the flames of anti-immigrant feeling. My impression of reading the news is that anger about illegal immigration was already pretty high even before the Biden term of office.
Part of the problem is that it is costly and difficult to become a US citizen. With sufficient background checks to weed out criminals, and ensuring that they cannot sign up for welfare for themselves and their families, the only immigrants that would come would be those wishing to make a success in life.
It is not reasonable to believe that she accidentally turned the wheels, put the car in reverse, backed up several feet, turned the wheels again the opposite direction, took the car out of reverse and put it into drive and then slipped and hit the gas pedal accidentally. That simply is not plausible. The sequence of events itself belies that possibility.
One of the videos – I think put up by a guy called Tim Pool – shows the wheels of her car spinning and slipping on the ice while pointed straight forward, before she turns the wheel to the right. ie the sequence of events is
1. wheel turned to right as she reverses, and stops
2. wheels turned straight
3. wheels start in a forward gear, but spin on the ice
4. wheels turn to the right and car moves off to the right in forward gear
So fwiw she’s hitting the accelerator while the wheels are pointing forward, before she turns the wheel to the right. Whether she’s intending to hit the guy, who knows. But what is not happening is that the wheels are turned to the right and so, perhaps, aiming to miss the guy, when the foot goes down on the accelerator. From the agent’s perspective that, IMHO, makes it reasonable for the guy to assume she’s aiming at him.
I also think that the fact that the wheels spin on the ice probably means she’s got her foot down fairly hard, as if she was cautiously easing the car forward as one might do in a car park when there are pedestrians all about, the wheels would have been less likely to spin.
@Johnathan Pearce
My point about ICE having targets of people to arrest is that when an organisation such as ICE, or whatever, is in such a situation, then without strict due process of law and the rest in place, bad things can happen.
Two things:
* Due process means that the accused is notified of a court action and has the right to rebut it and in a more relaxed environment that they are treated fairly, by some measure of “fair”. In what way are these illegal immigrants being denied due process? For sure the situation is chaotic, a fact caused by the massive civil protests and disobedience going on, but the ICE agents and associated LEOs seem to have acted extremely cautiously in face of horrific provocation, risks and assault. Have some gone too far? Probably, shit happens and for sure we should investigate them when a legitimate complaint is found. But you also have to realize that most of the information you get is filtered by extremely biased news sources, I mean pathologically biased. To give one example — the headline was “ICE raids a daycare center and arrests a teacher in front of her kids”. The truth? ICE was pulling over a known felon and illegal immigrant to enforce an action, she raced away down the highway causing severe traffic danger and eventually stopped, ran into a daycare center and was arrested in the lobby with no children present.
* As to insignia and face coverings: maybe you are seeing something I haven’t but in all the videos I have seen they are all wearing vests clearly indicating they are with ICE or CBP and with the word Police. So I’m not sure what you mean. Perhaps you mean name badges, which is certainly aligned with the masks. It seems ironic that the TDS lunatics are complaining about people wearing masks, but irony aside, as a general rule I’d agree, but these are extraordinary times when individual LEOs have a serious threat of retribution from the crazy nut jobs, and so anonymizing themselves seems as sensible as wearing a Kevlar vest. They should have some sort of ID number to allow for the reporting of misconduct, I’m not sure if they do.
But you’d have to be wilfully blind not to wonder at some of the episodes that have led to worries about ICE’s respect for due process, and as a result, pushback and anger is inevitable.
This is just plain wrong. I am sure there have been some bad incidents, it is inevitable in a mass campaign like this, and any such incidents should certainly be investigated and appropriate action take place. But if you think that is the source of all of this you are simply mistaken. The source of this is quite simply TDS. People who hate Trump and don’t want his policies implemented. People who don’t want immigration law enforced – something that the 2024 election was mainly about — people who are frustrated that the democrats lost because they hate Trump so much and are looking for any pretext to gin up trouble and any evidence of supposed Nazism.
Were this not true and ICE were going about their normal process, arresting and deporting illegal immigrants none of this would be happening. ICE has been doing this for a very long time and this level of force is not usually necessary. Illegal immigrants are, for the most part, nice, decent people who, when busted, just go along. Millions of them have self deported.
But, simply speaking, if a cop is arresting you and you resist, or if bystanders resist, the cop will escalate to the level of force necessary. That is their job. So don’t confuse the result with the cause. The extreme tactics are necessary because of the entirely unjust resistance not the other way around. And ICE agents have every reason to fear violence against them. These TDS people are absolutely nuts and have no constraints on what they think is justified in response to their imagined descent of America into fascism.
Again, it is VERY weird for me to be on this side of things.
Fraser, early on there were several cases of ICE operatives wearing masks and not carrying clear insignia. There were moves in Congress to address the matter. Several states have banned the practice.
The fact you haven’t seen these in videos doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. I’m pleased this has stopped.
When we start making excuses for masked and concealed cops with powers to arrest people, then a society is finished. Put a fork in it: it’s done.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy8rrprv90xo.amp
I don’t like the guy (he went on Triggernometry and attempted to redefine war to justify use of violence against Dems) but Tim Pool’s analysis is persuasive.
The wheels were turned toward the agent after the car finished moving backwards, the accelerator was pressed, wheels spun on ice as he drew his weapon and fired. Doing that takes a second, and in that time she turns. I don’t think anyone set out to kill, but the first shot fired was certainly justified.
The press have not looked at this, and at least one report snipped out the wheel spin.
Yesterday i mentioned that this incident is further evidence (if any were needed) that the modern Western diet induces brain damage. Allow me to spell it out.
Most obvious is the cognitive dissonance between US activists believing that the ICE is Trump’s Gestapo* and at the same time acting as though this Gestapo won’t touch them, in spite of their taunting and physical threats.
* as distinct from the FBI, which most Americans believed, reasonably, to be Biden’s Gestapo.
Equally insane is acting as though you are above the Law, then being outraged when suffering the consequences.
This is actually the same failure of terrorists in general: thinking that only violence will achieve their goals, while at the same time trusting that their enemies will not resort to violence.
If you trust your enemy not to use violence, then you should use non-violent means.
Vice versa, if you think that your enemy will use violence, then you should plan accordingly: no random violence.
— In this specific case, there is also the fact that Renee “Good” enrolled her 6yo child in an indoctrination school. What kind of moral degenerate would do that? Lots of them, apparently.
Here’s a take I didn’t expect, all generated within the last 40 hours:
I am beyond disgusted with ICE and its mission and its training and its personnel. What I witnessed all day today was lawless and thuggish, and I am truly surprised we don’t have people out there with their deer rifles picking off the ICE criminals.
I expected, as in every huge operation, that we’d have problems, but I thought the problems would be outliers, exceptions, the rare bad LEO going rogue.
Nope. Their mission is rogue, their tactics are criminal, and we did more damage to the Constitution today than I’ve seen in decades.
We in Minnesota, because of the huge Somali fraud scandal, faced a real chance of turning the state government Republican in the next election. That’s gone. Today is turning even Minnesota conservatives against this campaign. The federal midterms are, I think, going to be leaning more Dem than before specifically because of today.
I dearly hope someone in Washington is paying attention, and that ICE returns tomorrow with new rules and new leaders. I am embarrassed today to be a Republican.
Addendum: via Instapundit, today i read an excellent short essay: How Do You Determine Truth from Falsity?
The answer is fairly obvious to Popper students, but i won’t go into that here. What is interesting is the claim, in the X-post cited at the beginning of the essay, that
What that means (as i understand) is that a vast number of humans are unable to relate verbiage to the real world; AND are unable to detect logical inconsistencies in their verbiage (or even other people’s verbiage).
Go to the link to see how this applies to Renee Good.
It seems to me to apply also to Johnathan Pearce, but that requires a separate comment; which might or might not be forthcoming.
And another thing: Renee Good undertook ICE-watch training.
What good did that do to her?
— But then Renee Good is more good (pun intended) dead than alive, to ICE-watch. She is more useful to them as a martyr than as an activist.
You are welcome to your conclusions as to whether that was a consideration to the people who trained her, and others like her.
I don’t comment here very often because, and forgive me, you’re all a bit theoretical. When you put an army into the field, it doesn’t matter how careful you have been, how wonderful your training and supervision has been. As the days pass, discipline and control will start to break down and folk will start to get hurt.
Add, if you can face it, that a great many folk these days do not live real lives. They live lives through their telephones. Not for them a smile, a thank-you, and a touch of a hand but a tick on some electronic scoreboard. That’s what that lass sought. External validation – the most hopeless of all causes.
That’s what brought the madness to the street the other day. “I am not risking my life on a snowy road arguing with armed law enforcement officers. I am acting out my role as a heroic player in a social media play. There are no consequences except that I fear that I may pass the day with a distressingly low number of electronic affirmations. My day will have been unnoticed.” Bang!
That woman died because she was stupid. Wretchedly so. A useful idiot. The horrible truth is that villainous thieving members of the state and US government prayed for the day this would happen. And the deepest of my concerns about our American cousins is that the Republicans are so deep in the mire of corruption that they dare not rock the boat.
Helpfully.
@bobby,
And a lot of what happened is a consequence of that. Costly and complex process for citizenship? It should be! Citizenship for any country should be a privilege, not a right, and a privilege has to be earned, not handed out like toilet paper.
I get it you’re mad at ICE, but the whole situation should have been headed off years ago.
Following up on Fraser Orr:
“It is better to be tried by twelve, then carried by six”.
The Mayor of Los Angeles is a long term supporter of the Marxist regime in Cuba.
The Mayor of Chicago throws money around almost at random – seemingly unaware that, if one includes Cook County debt, Chicago is even more in debt (per person) than New York is. He blames “white people” for all problems – and endlessly talks about how these evil “white people” (who built the city of Chicago – although the Gentleman would, falsely, contest that) must-be-defeated.
The Mayor of New York City is a lunatic who tries to mix Marxism and Islam (which are logically incompatible – but he tries anyway).
The Attorney General of Minnesota also tries to mix Marxism and Islam – and his only “qualification” for his position is his skill at wife beating.
The Attorney General of the Commonwealth of Virginia – is a person who not only wants to murder conservatives, he wants to murder their children as well – and he was elected AFTER this was exposed. In short this, the murder of conservatives and the murder of their children, is a policy that Democrat voters in Virginia SUPPORT – they have voted for it.
What I suspect that Johnathan Pearce does not fully grasp is that, given this context, the United States is already in a state of preparation for Civil Conflict.
One is not dealing with political opponents – one is dealing with enemies (actual enemies) – not just the individuals I have pointed out, but the people who vote for them.
A majority (yes a majority) of “liberal” women say, in every opinion poll, that they are fine with the murder of Ice agents – indeed fine with the murder of anyone they believe to be conservative.
When one is dealing with people who say, endlessly, that they wish to murder you – “shoot first, and ask questions later” may indeed be an unfortunate response – but it is also a natural response. Especially when one has been hit, and is recovering from being sent to hospital by a previous murder attempt.
Alisa – the page you link to is leftist agitprop, but then you know that (as you have just as much experience of it as I do – possibly more).
No – ICE did not “engineer” the attack, even the “wife” of the dead activist admitted that she was the one who “engineered” the conflict by suggesting they go down there, and new video evidence has emerged (of which Johnathan Pearce appears to be unaware) of just how long they were there, and what they were doing.
bobby b – Yes. And the conflict is general – it is not confined to Minnesota.
What Johnathan Pearce possibly (possibly – I am not sure) may be unclear about, is the difference between someone like Hubert Humphrey and someone like Keith Ellison.
The policy ideas of Hubert Humphrey were mistaken – but his intentions were GOOD.
Attorney General Keith Ellison, and the modern generation of leftists in general, do not have good intentions – they want us DEAD.
This is the basic point that Wall Street Journal style corporate “conservatives”, fail to grasp.
The old “game” is over, so the “rules of the game” no longer apply. We are NOT dealing with people who have different policy ideas, but, deep down, are much the same as ourselves and want the same sort of society (just with more government spending and regulations) – people such as Hubert Humphrey or even George McGovern (who remained, deep down, a small businessman from South Dakota).
With the modern left policy discussion is pointless – because their objective is our extermination.
So it is “kill or be killed” – there is, tragically, no third option.
The education system and the media, including the entertainment media, have achieved their objective – or rather the ideas that have completed their “long march through the institutions” have achieved their objective.
There are now millions of people, indeed (perhaps) tens of millions of people, who want to utterly destroy “capitalist society” the traditional family and so on, and wipe out (exterminate) those people they deem to be “reactionaries”.
Perhaps they sincerely believe a wonderful new society will emerge from the ashes of “capitalism” – but if they believe that, they are mistaken.
A wonderful new society will NOT emerge from the ashes of “capitalism” – if the modern left win, there will just be a waste land.
For example….
It is pointless to explain to the modern left that most (yes most) of the Somali “community” in Minnesota are taking taxpayer money in one way or another – it is pointless to explain this to the modern left, because they already know that – and it is what they want.
They want this to help “Cloward and Piven” the system (to increase the number of people dependent on the taxpayers – till the system collapses), that is precisely why the modern left supports mass immigration.
Although they also support it to promote (yes – promote) civil conflict – for they know very well that “Diversity is our strength” is a LIE – that “Diversity” promotes crime, distrust and conflict – which is why they like it. Remember criminals are “socially useful elements” – because they attack the “evil” of private property.
Remember the objective – the destruction of “capitalist” society, of “whiteness” (including black or brown people who are guilt of such “crimes” as “punctuality” and “having a work ethic”), of “patriarchy” (i.e. the family), and so on.
We are not in Kansas anymore Toto.
Paul: yes, I know. Everyone is biased, and so when it’s someone not familiar to me, I like to know what their particular bias is. In that guy’s case it seems to go beyond mere bias, into an agenda.
Following up on Fraser:
do you really think that when ICE raids some factory full of illegal immigrants they can arrest Juan for whom they have a warrant but not Maria for whole they don’t?
And do you really think that, if US citizens form a human chain to block access to the factory, then ICE must call in the FBI to break this human chain?
@Paul Marks
And now they are looking for fresh institutions to march through. They are disappointed by the results of ‘marching through businesses’ because business results expose the consequences of ‘woke’ too immediately to ignore. They are hoping that leftish politics will continue provide a place to march but even there the middle distance failures are beginning to show up.
And so instead of the dangers of marchers with a Cause we are moving to too many marchers with no Cause at all. Possibly a more dangerous situation – for all involved.
@bobby b
Is this your take or are you quoting?
To sum up – here is the scenario that seems most plausible to me. (a guess)
The lady (and her companions) tried to obstruct the agent’s work and probably cursed him. This is bad and unlawful behavior.
The agents tried to detain her. (within the law).
She tried to flee in her car, ignoring the “halt” order. (bad and unlawful behavior).
The agent jumped in front of her car to prevent her escape. (dubious judgement). She did not intend to harm him. But she still did not stop as required.
He, then, fired and killed her. He was not under assault. This was wrong. There was not an imminent danger, or a dangerous criminal that had to be stopped by all means.
So, though I categorically condemn the lady’s ideology and her behavior, and I sympathize with the agent – I don’t think he should have shot her.
That’s what I was asking here before. Suppose a cop catches a burglar breaking into a house. The cop yells “halt”. The burglar flees anyway. Is the cop permitted to shoot him in the back?
One question is “what is the law”? As usual, the laws is murky and not clear. My feeling is that the cop should not shoot. But I’m not sure….
Alisa – yes indeed agitprop has an agenda, as you know agitation propaganda is a key weapon of the left – it is designed to stir people into action.
Jacob – in this case the objective of the activists is not to rob houses, although they are fine with that, but rather to murder ICE agents – the agent in this case had already survived one murder attempt.
The singer Zara Larson summed up the creed of the modern left.
It is not just “I love immigrants” – in spite of (or rather BECAUSE OF) all the terrible crimes (rapes and murders) committed by immigrants (and their next generation) in her native Sweden.
It is also “I love abortion” – now I can understand feeling that someone’s life is going to be so bad it would be better for them to be dead (I sometimes feel like that about myself) – but LOVE abortion?
Then there is “I love criminals” (logical from her point of view – see above).
And, of course, “I love socialism” – which is mass robbery, plundering, made into a political creed.
Finally “I hate ICE”.
Of course she does – to impose mass rape and plundering, one must first get rid of people who stand in the way.
Unlike the political philosophers of the Frankfurt School of “Woke” Marxism – Zara Larson used straightforward language and made the position of the left very clear.
The lady has my gratitude for her bluntness – for her clarity.
It would be utterly pointless to explain to a modern leftist, that the influx of illegals will lead to higher government spending, taxes, and crime
Pointless because they know that already – and love it.
Remember “I love welfare” and “I love criminals”.
“But surely this will eventually lead to the breakdown of society?”
Yes – and that is exactly what they want.
Remember “I love socialism” – which they believe will emerge from the ashes of the old society, after they have killed all the “Reactionaries” – murdered-us-all.
When someone like Mayor Mamdani of New York sees business enterprises closing in New York he is not upset – he is, privately, delighted.
This is what he wants.
From his point of view – the more poverty, the BETTER.
We are not dealing with Hubert Humphrey style “liberals” – although even they had turned liberalism on its head, instead of less government spending and less regulations, MORE of both.
Marxists are not liberals – of any sort.
When the majority of “liberal women” say (in poll after poll) that they want us dead, they are NOT liberals – this is NOT liberalism.
They are Marxists (of the Frankfurt School “Woke” “Critical Theory” sort) – and screaming “McCarthyite” at me does not alter that fact.
The left gained influence over the education system (and the media) long ago – and this is the result.
Millions (perhaps tens of millions) of people who want to wipe us off the face of the Earth.
I remind people that one million people in New York alone voted for Mr Mamdani – now Mayor Mamdani, and they did this AFTER he had been exposed – repeatedly exposed. I can NOT blame the media in this case – as he was repeatedly exposed in the local media, New York Post (which is on every newsstand), local Fox News television, talk radio stations – and so on.
The voters knew exactly what he stands for – and this is what they, the one million people who voted for him, also stand for.
They want us “reactionaries” dead. Although, of course, not till the balance of power is in their favour – they are NOT going to launch a purge of “reactionaries” till they have the resources to be confident of victory – but they are working towards that goal.
Kill or be killed.
That is the modern reality.
It is unfortunate.
In a few months it will be the 25th Anniversary of 9/11 2021.
And Mayor Mamdani will preside over the ceremony.
Think about that.
DJ & others…
What happens when the long march ends? When (to kinda quote Alexander, “there are no more Worlds to Conquer”)?
You invent them! You invent them because you are an activist and that is not just something you do until the battle is won but it is what you are. To quote Captain Tyrell (from “The Outlaw Josey Wales”), “Doing good ain’t got no end”.
That why gay rights morphed into tran ideology. Note, not trans rights but ideology – there is a huge difference.
That is why the self-proclaimed spiritual descendents of those who marched against Jim Crow laws now want to “de-colonise” mathematics.
That last one really narks me. For so many reasons…
Jacob – the agent did not jump in front of her car. She reversed, while turning the wheel, so that the turn put the agent in front of her car. Then she straightened the wheels, put her foot on the gas, then turned hard right, just clipping the guy as he fired.
Lee Moore – yes and the car had been there for some time doing other stunts, and the agent who was “clipped” had just come out of hospital after a previous murder attempt.
“We will not stop till heads drop as they did in 1793”. They are educated people – they have been to college, that is why they know about the Terror – and they love it.
Not the American Revolution Johnathan Pearce – the French Revolution.
They want us “reactionaries” dead – all of us.
I know that – because they say so.
If you are gentle with such people you end up like Louis XVI who ordered the Swiss Guard not to fight back – they were massacred.
His policy of peace did not save Louis – he was murdered, as was his wife (his young son died in prison), as were hundreds of thousands of other people – mostly quite ordinary people in the Provinces (see Doyle “The French Revolution”).
You kill the Rousseau loving (now Marxist) activists – or they kill you.
In this particular case: if a car comes full speed at you and you want to save your life you jump aside. You don’t stop to draw you gun and kill the driver, because this is not going to stop the car.
My take. Bad bad day.
Quite true, and this is one thing that worries me.
BUT
It does not make me think that the officer was putting a higher priority on killing R. Good than on saving his own life: that would be insane beyond even my low expectations for people eating a modern American diet. And the officer acted quite composed when taunted, which suggests that he does not suffer from *serious* diet-induced brain damage.
Another thing that worries me: R.Good knew, or ought to have known, that ICE had her picture, and her plate number. How could she possibly think that she could get away with manslaughter?
But that is not beyond what i expect from people who gorge on brain-damaging food, and there are other indications that she did.
Just to show I’m open-minded, the woman in this case isn’t as sweetly innocent as some might think.
And another angle, as the car clearly slams into the ICE agent:
https://x.com/i/status/2009702701953950127
Via Instapundit, again: Here is some good sense being spoken; by a young lady quite easy on the eye, for good measure.
I particularly like her uttering “THAT is insane!”
@bobby b I’m so sorry. It’s hard to get that sort of picture at a distance.
It’s a very depressing report fsince I want to feel that ICE is doing the right thing, but much worse for you.
You can not negotiate with people who openly say they “will not stop till heads are dropping like in 1793” the Reign of Terror in the French Revolution.
They kill you, or you kill them.
“Why shoot the driver if they have only clipped you?”
Because they can turn round and hit you again – and it will be march harder to shoot them in that situation – and even if you do shoot them, the car may still kill you. Once you know that the car is controlled by an enemy activist (not “a motorist” – that was an utterly absurd description of who controlled the vehicle) – which it was.
A car is a lethal weapon. And if you have been put in hospital by a previous murder attempt – you are well aware of that fact.
How?
Because she’s been brainwashed by the woke left to believe that she’s some sort of superhero for standing up for the poor oppressed Somalis who can’t grift anymore and might soon be tossed out of the country. All the left-leaning fiction on tv will have told her that as a woman she’s both untouchable and better than any man in any situation. She’s been brainwashed into believing federal employees doing their job are cartoon villains.
That’s what leads to situations like this one.
JuliaM
And the officer had experience of such brainwashed people – he was only recently out of hospital from a previous murder attempt.
That the car only “clipped” him on this pass, would not prevent the enemy activists from turning round and coming in for another attack.
Treating enemy activists as if they were “political opponents” is not sensible – as they themselves chant “we will not stop till heads are falling, like in 1793”.
One can not negotiate with would-be Robespierres.
They do NOT support the mass immigration because they love all immigrants.
As you know, they hated it when President Trump allowed in some white South Africans – people who really were refugees, under threat of death from activists in South Africa who have similar beliefs to Mayor Mamdani and others (he makes it clear he admires the plundering, rape and murder in South Africa – and sees it as a model for the future of the United States).
They love specific sorts of immigrants – such as the Somalis, and they love them BECAUSE they are criminals.
These “protests” are not libertarian “freedom of movement” protests – the leftists want specific sorts of immigrants, they want immigrants who will cause HARM.
“I love immigrants”, “I love criminals”, “I love socialism”, “I hate ICE”.
Honest immigrants are NOT wanted by the activists attacking ICE.
Another question for legal experts: Is the police allowed (in the US) to stop a passer-by and demand that he show an Id ? And if he does not have one, is the police allowed to detain him until he is identified?
https://x.com/i/status/2009702701953950127
If R. Good “clipped” an agent with her car – this is reason enough to detain her. (but not to kill her).
Brainwashed or paid (likely both).
I think that when you realise that the Democrat party loves immigrants because they are criminals who loot and steal it all makes a lot more sense.
I pity deluded puppets such as Ms Good who was killed when engaged in activities to disrupt law enforcement and defend immigrants who would have despised her if they had ever known her, but stupid is as stupid does. Drive a car at a police officer in any country and bad things tend to happen.
One thing interests me. We are told about illegal immigrants who just want to “work and pay their taxes”. How does an illegal immigrant pay tax? How can an illegal immigrant get a legal job if they have no tax status? Or is it possible for an illegal immigrant to get a legal social security number?
I’m not going to get into the rights and wrongs of what’s going in in the Minneapolis area. There’s plenty-enough to be concerned about, and plenty-enough discussions that there’s nothing I can add.
But I will share two obsevations from the old heads at the fire house, the other evening.
One from a retired firefighter and a die-hard Democrat who makes no bones about his political leanings. He says ‘for five years, in many of these places, protesters have been LARPing at being Freedom Riders and being abused by Bull Connor and waving their fists at The Man. In the same places, the police have been LARPing at being the police, putting on uniforms and driving around in squad cars but not actually enforcing the law. Now all of a sudden, one side isn’t LARPing anymore, and now neither side knows how to behave in the new reality’. I thought it was quite insightful.
The other thought came from a retired copper. He said ‘Imagine there was a mass breakout from Jackson (the State pen) and hundreds of convicted criminals, many of them violent, were loose in the community. Would large groups of citizens rise up and try to prevent the police from catching them and hauling them away? Would the average citizen be wailing about the assault on his 4A rights because he was detained for a few seconds at a highway checkpoint to be sure he wasn’t transporting fleeing inmates? What is it about these particular criminals that causes legions of well-fed, middle-class white protestors to go to such lengths to try and kerp them at large? I don’t even believe it’s about money, it’s about something else and I don’t know what it is’.
llater
llamas
“One Battle After Another”, a pro terrorism film, was the “Big Winner” at the Golden Globes.
It did not get all these awards because it was box office success – it was a flop, it lost money.
It got all these awards because the film supports Marxist terrorism – which is what Hollywood, and the rest of the left establishment, support.
We know that – because they give it awards, it was not a commercial success but they do not care about that – they care only about killing “Reactionaries”.
So when they arrive – they arrive to kill, one is killed by them – or one kills them.
President Trump has offered the left what they are demanding – the removal of ICE.
However, he has made clear that if ICE officers are withdrawn, due to endless attacks upon them, he will invoke the Insurrection Act and ICE will be replaced by a rather different force.
So the leftists who want Civil Conflict to exterminate all “Reactionaries” ought to reconsider.
It is possible that they would be on the losing side of such a conflict.
A conflict between “ICE Watch” “Antifa” and so on, and, say, the 101st Airborne Division – might possibly not go well for the left. I remind readers that President Eisenhower used the army in civil (internal) disputes.
By the way, the Insurrection Act also covers people (whoever they may be – including Senators) who try to subvert military discipline – to undermine the loyalty of military forces during a conflict.
It would be in the interests of the leftist activists to end their attacks on ICE officers – to just go away and allow the illegals to be deported.
Otherwise they may, possibly, be facing a different force.
The courts could also defuse conflict – by allowing all Federal tax money to be cut off from “Sanctuary” cities and States.
If the judges stopped getting in the way of that (of defunding these cities and States) – then those cities and States would have to peacefully end their attacks, or go bankrupt.
That would be the peaceful way to end the conflict.
Fraser: you asked about where ICE is ignoring due process. A few internet searches quickly bring examples such as this:
https://www.salujalaw.com/ice-s-new-tactic-undermines-trust-and-due-process
You say it’s weird to be defending ICE at the moment. Well that’s because you’re so concerned about enforcement that you seem to have accepted that immigration law can be enforced by any means necessary. Is that really your position?
You don’t have to be an old-school libertarian to be worried about all this. Although my worries are part of why I’m an old-school libertarian.
Imagine if a Democrat were President and giving the IRS full latitude to do what it takes to go after alleged tax cheaters, or if the ATF did so after alleged holders of unregistered guns. I suspect some of those on this blog comment thread would be angry: and to rightly so.
What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, as the saying goes.
Mr. Pearce apparently chooses to ignore the fact that the commie-crats have been weaponizing the federal agencies against their “enemies”(that’s anyone opposed to their commie agenda) any time they have the power to do so for years. Yeah, “sauce for, etc.” . . .
Mr. Pearce apparently chooses to ignore the fact that the commie-crats have been weaponizing the federal agencies against their “enemies”(that’s anyone opposed to their commie agenda) any time they have the power to do so for years. Yeah, “sauce for, etc.” . .
Maybe it is because you are mentally deficient, or lack literacy skills, but had you read the original post you would have noticed I referred to how the militarisation of police and other law enforcement entities in the US has gone on for some time. I even referenced a book, published 13 years ago, by Radley Balko.
I understand that emotions are running high. Of course, that is all the more reason why things such as due process of law must be respected, rather than brushed off by saying that the “commie-crats” or whatever have done X. That evades judging the specifics of the case at hand, and an example of lazy thinking which, I suspect, is the default of populists of all sides of the spectrum.
1. Check out the date of your article. Almost a year ago.
2. Check out the source of your article. A law firm that reps illegals, writing what is essentially a marketing page.
3. Check out who, in fact, was being targeted in that already-completed program, and what notices they had already received.
I’m very concerned about the present ICE operation, especially in my hometown. But this ain’t that.
We had a couple of bad days in that operation, but changes were made in some overexuberant groups, and ICE has been reasonable (here) since.
Johnathan:
1st: the very fact that “They” bring up the dubious Renee Good case, out of maybe tens of thousands of interactions between ICE and anti-ICE, makes people think “Is that the best — or worst — that you can show?”
2nd: your lengthy Kramer Hammy quote, being obvious BS, makes me think the same thing.
3rd: OTOH, bobby knows more than me about this, both by being a legal scholar and by being there on the ground; and he basically said that there is something better — or worse –that “They” could show, if there had been cameras filming it.
This reminds me of the fracas about George Floyd (and the previous fracases about Trayvor Martin, Michael Brown, and Eric Gardner).
As i understand, there are plenty of cases of abuse of police power in the US, many of them involving no-knock raids (see Radney Balko); but there are no cameras documenting such abuses.
So “They” resort to George Floyd et al. But make no mistake: “They” resort to George Floyd et al because they see it as a justification of their power over us; not because they believe that Black Lives Matter.
Well you regard the Renee Good case as “dubious”. Well, that’s your opinion.
Why is the HK account “bullshit?” What did he say that’s factually incorrect?
The way that ICE has behaved suggests there’s a major problem with its approach, which is exactly why this has prompted as much attention as it has. None of this excuses illegal immigration: it’s about whether enforcement respects rules, or doesn’t.
https://www.cato.org/blog/5-ice-detainees-have-violent-convictions-73-no-convictions
As a Brit, I worry about this because we have a habit of copying America in some ways, good and bad.
Bobby, which article do you mean? One that I linked to is dated May last year, seven months ago, which isn’t much.
Just for clarity’s sake:
I and a couple of other retired legal old farts were out helping some old-friend retired illegal old farts, and we witnessed some things that rather enraged us, from a constitutional POV.
One of my old-fart legal friends knows a few well-placed fed-types, and had some words that evening. Some instructions were given, some leadership was shuffled, and it appears that things became much nicer – less SS’y – within the next day.
Things are much better now, from a constitutionalist’s view. At least where I am.
Johnathan Pearce, that was the one. I think eight months equals a few lifetimes in this rather quickly-evolving legal scenario.
In spite of the number of progressive judges dealing with these matters, we’ve had very few findings of due process violations in the tens of thousands of interactions between ICE and persons of interest.
We saw some here a few days ago, but upon notification by observers, ICE fixed their approaches. Having two different dogs in this fight, as it were, I was enraged, but the speed of correction was good.
@Johnathan Pearce
Apologies, I have been off making a living so a bit behind on this discussion.
https://www.salujalaw.com/ice-s-new-tactic-undermines-trust-and-due-process
I am confused, this is an article, obviously from a pro-illegal immigrant law firm, saying that the police are following the law but doing it is a sly way that they don’t approve of. If you are an illegal immigrant you have the due process of the courts, but ultimately you have to leave, and ICE has every right to do so within the legal framework provided by the courts and congress. But you say, by putting immigrants in the position that they are going to get arrested by following court rules is exactly the problem — if you are an illegal immigrant you get tangled up in a web of one bad thing leads to another. Fear of arrest and deportation surely also encourages them to leave the scene of a traffic accident. But that is not a valid excuse, it is a consequence of their ongoing criminality.
And in this case bleeding heart lawyers have so confounded the process with endless loopholes, endless appeals and do-overs, that it is very hard to enforce the law. The fact that sometimes a blunt but legal tactic is used to cut the Gordian knot is a sign of good prosecution. If you are here illegally, the right thing to do is leave, and if you are unwilling to leave ICE has every right to use the law to make you do so even if a few emollient lawyers get their silk briefs stuck in their butthole in the process.
you seem to have accepted that immigration law can be enforced by any means necessary. Is that really your position?
No, my position is that immigration law can and should be enforced by any LEGAL means necessary. The ubiquitous flouting of the law is deeply destructive to society. I certainly believe there is a place for civil disobedience, Rosa Parks? Great lady. MLK, today being the day we celebrate him in the USA? A real prince. But this is not that. This is millions of people flouting a perfectly just law to benefit themselves.
I should say that BobbyB says ICE has gone too far and has corrected. There is so little reliable information on this since the media is squarely one way or the other (which in nearly all cases means “Orange man bad”.) But I think BobbyB is a fair minded observer and has the advantage of feet on the ground and the legal background to know what he is talking about. So I certainly don’t doubt there have been some abuses. But you don’t shut down law enforcement because some cop went too far. Sure, investigate and ensure consequences for any LEO who does so. Put in place guard rails to prevent it from happening. But that doesn’t mean you stop the whole process.
I would advise you, far away as you are, to be EXTREMELY skeptical of the news reporting you are getting. Most of it is deeply, deeply misleading.
I have no animosity to the illegal immigrants. They are victims of soft immigration law enforcement in the past. I don’t think they should be locked up, I don’t think they should be taken out back and shot or strapped down to the waterboard. All I ask is that the stop their ongoing breaking of the law by leaving the country. And if they do so without being forced too, then they have the same rights as everyone else to find a legal way to immigrate here if they so wish. If they are arrested and deported immigration law bars them from re-entry ever again as it surely should.
Imagine if a Democrat were President and giving the IRS full latitude to do what it takes to go after alleged tax cheaters, or if the ATF did so after alleged holders of unregistered guns. I suspect some of those on this blog comment thread would be angry: and to rightly so.
Those are vastly more unjust laws than the immigration law. My objection would not be to effective enforcement but the stupidity of the laws themselves. In fact I think the uneven enforcement of the tax law is bad in many, many ways. However, on the contrary, American immigration law is extremely generous to those wishing to come here. By no means is it unfair or unjust. There is no constitutional right for foreigners to take up residence here and it is perfectly possible to immigrate here without violating the law. I know because I did it.
To be clear, I say this not as some deluded MAGA robot. Since the beginning of the year I think the President has lost his fucking mind, but he was elected to enforce immigration law and that is what he is doing. The fact that protesters, who generally aren’t so much concerned with the illegal immigrants as they are with opposing everything Trump is doing, are making it a bloody process is entirely on them. It is a horrible situation and very much ginned up even more strongly as the repulsive Tim Walz looks to climb over the bodies of any innocent victims to save his own skin.
President Trump was elected to fix immigration and fix the economy. He has been doing the first very well, the second very poorly, and has decided all on his own to add a third and turn into Lindsay Graham but with a set of ‘nads. It is simply horrific what he is doing in his foreign policy and even worse how he is so deeply neglecting the economy. But to misquote Meatloaf, I guess one out of three ain’t bad.
It turns out that not all Democrat-ruled US cities are as degraded as New York, Chicago, Minneapolis, or the “Left Coast”: compare Memphis to Minneapolis.
As “Ken” writes:
I suspect that the root cause of these problems is the ease of voting fraud. All the cities that i mentioned above (except Memphis) are in States with no effective voter ID requirements. In such States, it pays for Democrats to maintain a large population for illegal immigrants and to facilitate & encourage their illegal voting.
So, ultimately, the root cause of deaths in confrontations with ICE (or with anti-ICE) is the ease of voting fraud.
Not Trump putting pressure on ICE.
NB: I was dumb enough not to realize that Democrats not only facilitate, but encourage voting fraud by illegal immigrants. The Somali day care scandal in Minnesota brought me closer to reality.
Worth noting, I changed my mind on this one. The wheels did spin, in the direction of the officer, before he opened fire. What was unimaginable to me was that he moved backwards away from the vehicle, and simultaneously forwards aggressively. He ended up at quite the diagonal. So he was simultaneously fearful and aggressive.
I don’t think the standard of “reasonably in fear of life” that many commentators have mentioned can be applied straightforwardly to that behaviour, particularly as his rear half did seem to be out of the way.