That the EU Referendum blog is unhappy at the latest turn of events in the UK parliament is an understatement:
In other words, in a very real sense – not at all an arcane, academic point – as Lisbon bites, it will no longer makes any difference at all who we elect. For sure, any new government will have some residual powers which it can call its own, but these will gradually be stripped from it as the EU starts to exert its newly-acquired powers.
It occurs, therefore, that the one thing we need to do is boycott the electoral process. If there is no point in having MPs, we should no longer partake in the charade that we have meaningful elections. There can be no better message to send to MPs than an ever-declining turnout. This robs them of even the pretence of legitimacy.
Quite so. It seems to me that we have the bizarre spectacle of MPs choosing to make themselves irrelevant. Perhaps they have reached the deep realisation that they are unworthy of being legislators, that their real role in life is to fiddle expenses, disport themselves on TV and go to foreign junkets. There is, quite frankly, no further use for them.
In moments like this, when so many powers are being transferred to a supranational entity like the EU with remarkably little democratic accountability, and on a scale that has no clear modern parallel, it makes me wonder what, if any point, there is in things like intellectual activism. Getting the message across in a national context is hard enough; trying to persuade Frenchmen, Germans, Italians, Dutchmen, Spaniards, Greeks, Portugese, Belgians and Finns of the case for less government is next to impossible. One of the reasons why I, as a libertarian, am broadly in favour of self-governing nation states is not out of some starry-eyed belief that they are always better than some broader alternative, but because experience teaches us that it is increasingly hard to make changes on a large, supranational level where there is not a shared culture or shared language.
The EU has had its merits, but I think the sad truth is, and has been for some time, that lovers of liberty cannot expect it to be reformed from within or turned into some sort of benign free trade zone. We have to get out.
It occurs, therefore, that the one thing we need to do is boycott the electoral process.
Only if you’re ready to take up arms. Until that point, political activisim and voting are your own defenses.
Throwing down your weapons in disgust is functionally indistinguishable from surrender.
Will we be able to leave once Lisbon is ratified?
I know tradition, and logic and the law are beyond the understanding of the EU and EUrophiles – but I wonder how can this parliament bind any future parliament?? I know the real answer is by simply ignoring the issue …
OK I’m flying a kite here – but what’s to bet that the canceled election Gordon Bean keeps on getting postponed and postponed … ?
Boycotting elections will allow the Europhiles to secure their totalitarian empire within the next generation. Supporting Eurosceptic parties may seem futile, but it will buy us time. The unity and cohesion of the new super state will fall apart when times get tough, which they surely will with oil running out, 6.5 billion of us fighting over dwindling resources, and Islam on the march.
Keep fighting, and be patient.
If this doesn’t wake people up to how little say they have in how they are governed I don’t know what will. I would love to say that if things pan out and I do end up leaving the country it will be to somewhere outside Europe but it won’t be.
The day of the black flag draws ever closer…
If this doesn’t wake people up to how little say they have in how they are governed I don’t know what will. I would love to say that if things pan out and I do end up leaving the country it will be to somewhere outside Europe but it won’t be.
The day of the black flag draws ever closer…
Mark said: “Will we be able to leave once Lisbon is ratified?”
If we proclaimed we no longer recognise the legitimacy whole EU arrangement, to whom would the rest complain (except themselves)? I don’t know the answer, nor if such agreements between nations constitute legally binding contracts to be enforced by some higher power.
Unfortunately the British way of doing things is by the book, and if the book defines a set leaving procedure we are likely to follow it and suffer the penalties. Yet I could not imagine the French, Germans, Italians, Spanish or whoever doing such a thing – they’d just shrug their shoulders and say “tough, we’re out of here”.
Well Mark, I watched some of the debate on BBC Parliament. I’ve never bothered before.
At one point the lady member for Morcombe (Labour), who was arguing that a Referendum wasn’t nessessary, as it isn’t a Constitution blah blah etc, was going on about the Treaty, for the first time, having a mechanism within it that allows complete withdrawal from the EU. She went on to say that we should have a Referendum on being in or out, as the whole “Project” has changed radically from the Common Market we signed up to, to being the leap towards a United States of Europe that the Lisbon treaty obviously is.
So on the technicality of a “Treaty” not being a Constitution (when of course it is in all but name) she would be voting with the Government.
But she seemed to be calling for a Referendum as to our continuing membership of the EU.
It should be remembered that all of you born later than 1963 or so (if my sums are correct) have never had a say in being in or out. That is a hell of a lot of you.
The debate was a cracker. Kate Hoey doing her damndest to save our country. Hague on fine form, but all for naught. This time.
Nils Desperandum though. The Lords are sure to hold it up, and if i Dave had the guts, he would say right now, that the Tories will repeal the treaty their first week in office and leave the EU altogether as soon as possible. Well they may very well win with a landslide.
Alas the Tory high command read the Guardian rather than Samizdata.
Vote for UKIP.
This “in-or-out” referendum is a red herring for the Europhiles to hide behind. They assume this is one that they can win, so if forced to have a referendum (which now seems extremely unlikely) this will be their fall back position.
It’s like those objecting to a labour majority in parliament being offered a vote on whether we should abolish parliament, rather than being allowed to vote on the issue at hand, whether we kick them out or not.
Let’s just say that one day we did elect a vertebrate who had the cojones to announce that we were going to leave the EU. I’m certain that within 48 hours we would be on the receiving end of an EU rapid reaction force made up of the French CRS, the Italian Carabinieri, the Guarda Civil and the Portuguese GNR. They would be deployed on our streets to “keep order” and ensure that none of the EU’s joint assets or personnel were harmed and in the interests of keeping the Euro steady. I bet that’s what would happen. There’s no way that France or Germany are going to let the meal ticket that is the UK leave the party while there is still some money behind the bar!
Well John, she need not have developed the “In or Out” theme at all, and stuck to the technicality ploy.
But she did.
“Old” Labour were very Eurosceptic. My old neighbour and friend Viscount Tonypandy, was vehemently against it.
As was Neil Kinnock until he realised he could no longer get elected dog catcher even.Decided he might as well join them, as he was never going to beat them.
Time to wallow in the mire
And he took his entire family with him!
Talk about that Tory bloke! Sheesh.
Mark you have made me giggle!
Oops it is turning into a full blown belly laugh…
Back later Nmf, narf, scunnel , garp…
Boycotting the electoral process isn’t the solution. Turnout has been declining for decades, and no politician has ever given a damn – why would they start now? Make protest votes, sure – UKIP seems the most likely choice, from what I know of British politics – but don’t assume that staying at home is how to send a message.
This is fascinating to watch from a distance (sort of like a train wreck). I’m not aware of any other instance of politicians voluntarily relinquishing any real power; the natural flow of things is in the other direction. Why your MPs would agree to this is incomprehensible to me.
Here in the US we tried something similar over 220 years ago with the ratification of our Constitution. That was supposed to be a sort of “compact” among 13 sovereign states to share the burden of common defense and to regulate certain aspects of inter-state relations and trade; all other matters were reserved to the states, both implicitly in the body of the Constitution and expressly in Article X of the Bill of Rights. (Sound familiar?) We called it “Federalism”, and we can all see how well that worked in practice: inexorably, over time, power was arrogated to the national government, and the states have been reduced essentially to the status of vassals. That’s the road you’re on.
Enjoy!
I cannot speak for the French, Italian or Portuguese forces, but the Guardia Civil are not capable of rapidly deploying anywhere; they are a paramilitary police force, but they do not have the logistical capacity of going anywhere fast.
I cannot speak for the French, Italian or Portuguese forces, but the Guardia Civil are not capable of rapidly deploying anywhere; they are a paramilitary police force, but they do not have the logistical capacity of going anywhere fast.
Ooops! Sorry about that.
Rapid is a relative term… but they probably could move themselves if they thought the British milk cheque was about to disappear.
And are you really afraid of the French? (Link)
Not really afraid of any of them but there’s no accounting for the madness of crowds and popular delusions. A mob can be an ugly thing. Actually, the Germans can be pretty nasty when they put their minds to it!
Well Mark, to us naughty Brits up to no good,
the answer, when all these “Crack” forces, snork! snicker!
arrive from Europe,
is to do our illegal business between 1pm and 4pm.
The rest of the time, just bribe them like everybody else in Europe does.
You know, I think we have the basis for a great sitcom developing here. Britain is occupied by crack continental law enforcement agencies trying to subdue a defiant British population that’s finally decided to stop implementing EU Directives. Let’s use traditional British humour to escape the EU. It could be a cross between Allo Allo, Dad’s Army and Minder. Anyone want to co-write it with me?
Can you incorporate V into it?
Mark. I already just did didn’t I?
🙂
All we have to do is call these “crack” law enforcers un-Islamic.
Does anyone think that when,regretably, the separatist car bombs start going off in Brussels,that the blue flag will not turn white and all the stars fall off?
Considering the American market, no problem Laird!
One of our most “Prominent” commentators and thinkers, believes they are all lizards (literally) already.
So.
Do lunch, sign contracts guys!
Waddia think?
Now please can we get back to the thread!
This is my fuckin country they are selling down the river here!!!
I have to agree with those who say this isn’t a constitution.
To my mind a constitution lays out the relationship between the rulers and the ruled, and should have at least a paragraph or two about how the ruled can get rid of the rulers if they are not fulfilling their part of the deal.
Instead, this is an edict from the rulers telling us how they are going to govern us. The Heads of State, the Council of Ministers and the Commission will still be untroubled by such petty things as democracy and the sop of a ‘Parliament’ will still have it’s magnificent range of rubber-stamp powers. (Jeez, don’t these guys read history. Even I know what happens when you have a powerless parliament and a King called Charles on the throne. And that rump parliament at least had the power of the purse.)
Even the ‘rights’ come across as admonishments to the peasants. “Be nice to children and old people.” “Don’t be nasty to designated victim groups.” And they’ve built in enough competing ‘rights’ that only governments and well funded pressure groups can afford the legal fees to obtain these ‘rights’, which can then be used to club the rest of us into submission.
All they have to do now is buy off the larger industries like farming, transport, manufaturing etc., with favourable trade restrictions and they’ve got us well and truly bolloxed. Oh wait. They’ve already done that.
Face it guys. We’re screwed.
Watch this bullshit if you need convincing of the EU elite’s arrogance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrEN1d08g38
Mark thanks for that link.
I lasted about 4 mins before the screaming habdabs had me.
The Surrealist art behind his head says it all.
A man who bends paper clips
who thinks he is a steel worker!
Yes that sitcom aint a bad idea at all!
This is a sovereign people, if it thinks it is.
If it thinks it is, then it can get out. We just go. What will they do? Assault us? Stop selling us their cars, food, machines, wine etc? Will their write off our debts to “European” Banks?
Nah.
But if it does not think it is sovereign, then we can’t.
Laird said: “This is fascinating to watch from a distance (sort of like a train wreck). I’m not aware of any other instance of politicians voluntarily relinquishing any real power; the natural flow of things is in the other direction. Why your MPs would agree to this is incomprehensible to me.”
Less work for more pay! Blame the EU for bad legislation. Take credit for good legislation. Someone else does all the thinking. Get a foot in the door for a job with the EU for when they get voted out here. What’s not to like?
I think the UK or any other European state has about as much chance of getting out of the EU as the Confederate states in America had of seceding from the United States. The American Civil War was fought to keep the US economically stable… in violation of the US Constitution and the principles behind the US Declaration of Independence. No matter what constitution or treaty is in place, the majority of EU states aren’t going to allow the UK to secede if it risks their own economic stability. Whether the would mean a civil war, or a police state, or worse, who knows. For those of you Europeans who seriously think some form of secession is in your future, I recommend familiarizing yourself with Confederate history.
Les gendarmes can’t even shoot back when they’re actually shot at on their home turf. What makes you think they’ll be able to occupy England?
As for a comparison to the US civil war: imagine how secession would have gone if Virginia had nuclear weapons. “Listen up all you primates: any attempt to stop us from being the UK and Brussels ceases to exist.” I mean, the only other nuclear-armed power in the EU[1] is France, and let’s be real…it’s FRANCE.
[1] Depending on whether Ukraine is an EU member or not.
Nah the Civil War analogy doesn’t run.
The war was fought to preserve the Union rather than ending slavery. Which is the usual shallow leftie reason.
But it cannot be denied that slavery was a very big factor.
Another major factor though was that the South being mainly an agrarian society based on Cotton and Slavery, distained to trade with the North, which was much more industrialised, for their manufactured goods, and prefered to trade their cotton directly for European (read British) manufactured goods instead.
This really pissed off the North.
With the EU we have no rancorous dispute anything like slavery, and Europe would be insane to get heavy with us for leaving as they sell far more stuff to us than we do to them.
They’ll moan about the loss of the contributions though.
But I think if the political will to leave was there (it is not in any party except UKIP) We could get out pretty cleanly really.
Christopher Booker was good today (he always is, if the rest of the Sunday Telegraph was up to anything like the same standard I would buy it – even though I do not have a table big enough for it).
Mr Booker poited out that the great David Cameron, who so opposes “banging on about Europe”, had proposed a new policy – changing the tax on booze.
However, the change that Mr Cameron proposed was against European Union rules – so it the policy (good, bad, or indifferent) was a nonstarter.
If only Mr Cameron and co understood that the European Union is not some boring matter of “foreign affairs” – but a government that makes many of the “vote catching policy ideas” dead letters.
Do they want to be like local councillors – people who find that almost every is set by national government and enforced by officials?
Still I suppose they think (if they think at all) “as long as I get my pay and perks, who cares that I will be as much in charge as the star on the top of a Christmas tree controlls the tree”.
Sometimes I suspect that the only time David Cameron and co will get upset about the European Union is if it ever tells them they can not spend as much money as they wish to.
After all they are from the John Major school of finance.
“We have spent more money that Labour promised to spend” – as if this was a good thing.