As offensive goes, that episode wasn't the half of it. But I don't remember Hitler, unless they photochopped him in somewhere.
Speaking of which, I withdraw my QOTD from last week. Trey and Matt said it better than I could ever hope.
This sounds very much old school to me. If South Park is dissing religion, than the Soviet state is for it.
Billll: then you haven't been following Russia. Putin has been in bed with the priests for quite a while now.
Dale is right though, Russia is complicated these days. But this particular incidence is not reason enough to cheer. So they like SP.
a South Park cartoon was hateful to Christians and Muslims.Emphasis mine. I'd have to see the actual episode to judge, but maybe that's why they liked it so much?
It's a facinating place to live too, albeit rather frustrating. They still haven't heard of internet banking here, FFS!
And this:
where very smart and well educated people create new ideas and companies
probably applies to half a dozen individuals across the whole country. The only people I see running successful businesses in Russia are those who are either in local or national government or in bed with those that are.
I agree with the posting. A huge place in flux.
Information from Russia is sparse, hard to analyze, and often unreliable.
We saw that in the hourly statements during the Ossetia/Georgia crisis. It makes me believe Russian leaders often lack reliable information too. Gorby said that was a big problem while he sought to retain the USSR form.
I haven't believed Putin was quite a neo-Stalin. And I still don't. And at Samizdata you get kicked for that. But history will decide about Putin. He is a tough guy who chose not to get off the tiger when his Presidency expired.
We should hope Russia stabilizes and prospers. They occupy the largest land mass in the world and yet it is still almost empty by world standards. And they are flanked by heavily populated China and Islamic nations.
I don't want either of those "neighbors" moving in on a collapsed Russian state.
It's more complicated.
2x2 belongs to the oligarch Vladimir Potanin (http://www.profmedia.ru/actives/2x2/ - Profmedia is Potanin's media holding), who wouldn't let it off so easily, so what we presumably have here is one element of a power struggle.
The church group in question was a pentecostalist group. All non-orthodox christians are subject to constant harassment. In exchange for being left alone to build a church or some such, the group made the complaint as a demonstration of loyalty to people with Kremlin ties. It all relates to the ongoing Potanin/Prokhorov division of property spat. At least that's what I've heard from people in the media.
People did turn up to protest though. I live round the corner from one of the meeting places and a few hundred people turned up to march for 2x2.
TO: Dale Amon, et al.
RE: Let Me Get This Straight
The Russian government refuses to give a religious group a license to operate a television station.
And you think this is a 'good' thing? That Putin's control of the media that might criticize his control of the government is weakening?
You're an atheist. Right?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe. -- Thomas Jefferson]
You seem to have had a modest error in reading comprehension. The religious group was attempting to get the license of a popular cartoon station pulled and popular activism saved it.
I suggest you follow the link and re-read slowly.
And yes, if you care, I am a non-practicing atheist.
Putin has been in bed with the priests for quite a while now. Over there too????? Yikes!
OK, Dale. I'll bite: What is a "non-practicing" atheist?
Laird, at first I read it as a 'non-preaching' atheist. Maybe I am not that far off, Dale?
I'd never thought of it that way Alisa, but that is probably a fair enough description. I'm a non-practicing atheist in much the same way as there are non-practicing Jews and Christians, ie I hold the beliefs and am part of that framework culturally, but in day to day life I don't go running about looking for converts or for the most part even thinking about it.
Of course there was the question from the old days of Northern Ireland:
Q: What religion are ye?
A: An atheist.
Q: ... Would that be a Protestant Atheist or a Catholic Atheist?
Gotta love the Irish!
Anyway, whatever your religion is (or the lack of it), what matters is that you are on the side of the angels:-)
Listen to K you libertarians who despise Putin and jump on the bandwagon with many of his Soros-funded liberal-left critics...the leading contributor to fascist tendencies in Russia, which often come from the bottom up rather than the top down (those folks prefer crony capitalist oligarchy) is the chaos and anarchy that was falsely dubbed market democracy in the 90s.
And why is the increase in Russian Orthodoxy necessarily a bad thing from a libertarian perspective if it encourages Russians to have babies again and create more productive citizens? Is a liberal government possible in a society where asset values and national security are declining due to demographic free fall. With Europe slated to experience the biggest percentage population decline since the Black Death (worse than WWI and WWII) in the 1400s, this is not an abstract question. Russia just happens to be a big European birth rate level country with much worse abortion and mortality rates. Can you blame Putin for trying to bribe Russian women with some of that oil money in an effort to check that trend?
There's a whole website called La Russophobe devoted to telling everyone how much Russia sucks (not just Putin and the government). It is as if Russia fails to adhere to a liberal Western orientation than it deserves to die, just as it deserved to die for not being part of the master race or failing to implement impossible scientific socialism. I think La Russophobe would be happy if the Russian stock market fell to zero even as everyone around him or her in New York were also standing in an unemployment line. It's called schadenfraude and it can be found on both the Left and Right. But there seems to be no subject like Russia to bring about an odd convergence between McCain and Obama or between the Washington Post and the WSJ - they all seem to be equally anti-Russia while curiously giving China, Saudi Arabia and other Gulf Arab nations a pass for similar or much worse authoritarian tendencies.
First off, drop the angry tone. You seem to have something interesting to say so I'll give you a bit of slack so long as you conform to our norms of collegiality.
Secondly, I do not see what your points have to do with the article. It is certainly of libertarian interest that a group of Russian citizens were able to stop censorship and save a TV station from being taken off the air, for whatever reason.
I am sure there are religious conservatives in America who love to be able to take down channels at will. But due to the First Amendment and large numbers of people who are willing to go through endless legal battles if necessary, such efforts are bound to end in failure.
I am happy to see that the smallest part of that liberty has taken root in Russia and I hope that citizens of that country do more of the same. Liberty is never given to you, the individual. It is something you take.
So let us lift a glass to those in Russia who are willing to take their Liberty and tell the State to Stuff it.
TO: Dale Amon
RE: Could Be....
You seem to have had a modest error in reading comprehension. The religious group was attempting to get the license of a popular cartoon station pulled and popular activism saved it. -- Dale Amon
....it was early here and I'd not had any coffee.
My apologies.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[There's too much blood in my caffeine system.]
TO: Dale Amon
RE: But....
And yes, if you care, I am a non-practicing atheist. -- Dale Amon
....although my reading skills were not up to snuff, by way of not awake enough, it appears my perception WAS 'spot on'.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Atheism is a non-prophet business.]
Spot on perhaps, but irrelevant. It would have made no difference to me if the parties were reversed on the TV license issue. What is important is that liberty was served. A group of citizens prevented a power block from committing censorship.
In my book, censorship is always an evil to be fought. No exceptions.
Not even for things which would disgust me to the point of physical illness.
Steve's mention of La Russophobe made me stop reading his comment immediately. Kim Zigfeld, the site's proprietor is just plain nuts. If you make a comment on the site that does not ravage everything Russian, you will be attacked mercilessly as some sort of evil, fascist, Putin-bot.
The South Park reversal is a good thing, but if jb’s account is correct, nothing has changed in Russia. In fact, the whole episode has only further marginalized protestant Christianity in Russia, which could very well have been the Kremlin’s main intention all along.
TO: All
RE: Dale Amon....
Spot on perhaps, but irrelevant. It would have made no difference to me if the parties were reversed on the TV license issue. -- Dale Amon
....just doesn't 'get it' in the first place.
Comes from being an atheist, I suppose.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Jesus astonishes and overpowers sensual people. They cannot unite him to history, or reconcile him with themselves. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson]
P.S. That is hardly 'irrelevant'. Indeed, it is the primary cause of your misconception. You just don't 'appreciate' the other 'camp'. Whereas WE 'appreciate' where you're 'coming from' all too well....for your comfort.....
None of which seems to have much of anything to do with the article unless you are using cloudy language to say that you very much would agree with censorship, just so long as it is not against your team. That's the old "freedom means you can do what I say you can do" routine.
You are welcome to be a true believer and I will not be against you... so long as you do not attempt to use force or coercion to make others act according to your doctrine.
Muslims are growing in numbers in Russia.
The first time when this came to my (somewhat ignorant) attention was back in 1979 when I read a translation of d'Encausse's "Decline of An Empire: The Soviet Socialist Republics in Revolt".
Under socialism the birth rate of the nonMuslim population had collapsed - but the Muslim birth rate had not.
Even getting rid of most of the Muslim nations of the old Soviet Union (although not all of them), does not mean that the Muslims are not important in what is left - and they are getting more imporant every day (as they are in Western Europe, and even the United States).
As Dale says Russia is complicated.
As for South Park:
Unlike most people round here I am not an athiest - however I support the writers of South Park right to mock anything and anyone.
Whether the Orthodox are offended, the Muslims are offended, or athiests are offended. Or anyone else.