The jewel in the crown of Samizdata.net
A blog for people with a critically rational individualist perspective. We are developing the social individualist meta-context for the future. From the very serious to the extremely frivolous... lets see what is on the mind of the Samizdata people.

Samizdata, derived from Samizdat /n. a system of clandestine publication of banned literature in the USSR
[Russ.,= self-publishing house]
There is much to find for those who look
We are not alone
Made possible by...
 
December 02, 2007
Sunday
 
 
The things great to the nth grampa put up with...
Dale Amon (Belfast, Northern Ireland/Laramie, Wy)  Science & Technology

If you thought spiders and scorpions bigger than humans were just 1950's B-movie creations caused by nuclear testing then think again.

Paleontologists from Bristol University and Germany found a rather large scorpion claw in a German rock quarry:

The discovery of a giant fossilised claw from an ancient sea scorpion indicates that when alive it would have been about two-and-a-half meters long, much taller than the average man.

This find, from rocks 390 million years old, suggests that spiders, insects, crabs and similar creatures were much larger in the past than previously thought.

This is not a critter you would want to find under a rock in your garden. Assuming, of course, you have very. very large rocks...

Comments

The "Bolsover Dragonfly" is a famous eponymous fossil from the coalfields of Derbyshire. Furthermore, "Megaranea", sometimes categorised as "Megarachne" was a contemporary (that is to say, carboniferous era) spider, up to 2 feet across, or about 600mm.
The reason for these very large (what you would call as an engineer, "normally-aspirated" animals) was that the Oxygen percentage of the earth's atmosphere is known to have reached 36% at that time. Therefore very very large insect-type creatures would have been able to respire and exist. This also explains the prevalence of highly-carbonised coals from the time, consisting of very high % levels of pure carbon rather like coke, probably due to continent-sized forest fires which oculd have been started by lighting even in torrentialo downpours.
I would not have wanted to be a land animal 320 million years ago at all.


Posted by David Davis at December 2, 2007 07:46 PM

The hell with big bugs - I want 'em to clone mammoths. I want mammoth steak for tea, a mammoth-skin rug on the floor. I want to run a mammoth ranch in Canada and use my mammoths for logging - just like they use elephants in India. It would be grand! You can all come up and stay in the lodge and go on a mammoth safari - that's gonna be a side business. Oh yeah, and the ivory, definitely the ivory. Have to open a gift shop too.


Posted by Nick M at December 2, 2007 08:07 PM

due to global warming they were forced to decrease their surface to volume ratio so they could better radiate heat....


Posted by spidly at December 2, 2007 08:15 PM

increase


Posted by spidly at December 2, 2007 08:16 PM

global warming, anyway


Posted by spidly at December 2, 2007 08:17 PM

Animals have been around for about 600Ma. The lifespan of a species is around 0.5Ma. Sizes go up and down, depending on the climate, mix of predators and prey and other factors. It would be incredibly surprising if there were not larger species from most groups at some stage in the past.


Posted by Steve at December 2, 2007 08:33 PM

steve, the debate is over - the Goracle has spoken. it doesn't matter what we find. big ,small. It's global warming


Posted by spidly at December 2, 2007 09:07 PM

Fact: global warming will cause giant spiders to eat you alive. Tomorrow, probably.


Posted by nick at December 2, 2007 11:59 PM

You'd go bankrupt Nick M
Mammoths are completely untrainable
Take it from me., and you should see what they've done to my hall carpet!
The wool is great though. We've insulated the loft with it.


Posted by RAB at December 3, 2007 12:23 AM

The scorpion was aquatic, so had a different breathing mechanism compared to dragonflies, which use spiracles. It had gills. A land encounter for such a beastie is another thing entirely.

Land Scorpions (or at least some) and primitive (and often the larger) spiders use book lungs, evolved from book gills. I am unclear if book lungs were phased out because they desiccated more than spiracles and were unnecessary in the high oxygen content at the time, though it makes sense. Maybe burrowing spiders, scorpions could reduce desiccation and so the advantage of moving to spiracles was reduced for them.

I am unclear how good book lungs are vs spiracles, but they seem a better starting position for creating forced respiration and thus the chance for massive arachnids.


Posted by Roger Thornhill at December 3, 2007 02:26 AM

Can't help thinking those mammoths must have whiffed a bit though, NickM and RAB.

That's one of the great advantages of living in a 21st Century city: no animal smells, and thanks to our marvelous chemical and toiletries industries, precious few human ones too.

(PS: I've just had the same Turing code three times in a row. Something up?)


Posted by Sam Duncan at December 3, 2007 09:12 AM

Sam,
Which is why the place would be staffed by cloned Neanderthals. Think of me as a paleolithic Willy Wonka.


Posted by Nick M at December 3, 2007 12:46 PM

I think there are also issue with chitin strength/exoskeleton mechanics for large arthropods, particularly in the joints. The sea scorpion is at least partly aquatic, which helps.


Posted by Jet Goodson at December 3, 2007 03:48 PM

An 8-foot long arachnid?

It must be either Ungoliant or Shelob.


Posted by Joseph Hertzlinger at December 9, 2007 08:17 AM
Post a comment









Remember personal info?


Enter anti-spambot Turing code:





Select some text and click this to format it as a quote Make the selected text bold Make the selected text italic Add a web link


Basic html active.

Alas, but for obscure reasons Mozilla, Mac and Linux users shall not harness to power of the push-button formatting options and shall therefore compose basic html with their bare hands. Yet Mozilla, Mac and Linux users shall not fear, for we shall reveal forthwith the mysteries of Basic Html:

<strong>This text in-between is bold</strong>

<em>This text is in italics</em>

And
<blockquote>This is a quote</blockquote>
Remember to close your opened tags as such: <tag> tagged text and closing </tag> and we promise you will get out of here alive.

For adding links, either use the link URL button on the toolbar or enter your code by hand in the following format:
<a href="http://www.your_link.com">your link text or description here</a>

Movable Type's anti-spambot e-mail address protection is enabled.

You are a guest on private property. Have fun but please be civil and succinct. Blogroaches will be persecuted, not to mention IP banned.

Long third party quotes or articles will also be deleted... so just link to articles you think are germane to your comment, don't quote the whole bloody thing.