Perry I have observed the same phenomena myself but I wouldn't say it was anything peculiar to muslims. As you point out there are some Christiians who do get bent out of shape also but they are much rarer. I think it is more a lack of cultural education or understanding of what freedom of speech is than something inherent in the religion. We have a longer tradition of free speech in the west and I don't think there is anything else to it.

Having said that it occurs to me that although we have a cultural tradition of free speech the current ruling class in the UK is not particularly in tune with it. And so elements of it might be inciting strong muslim protests so as to appear "caring" when they propose laws such as those against religious hatred.

Posted by Bernie at January 31, 2006 12:24 AM

Bernie - Your comment is absurd.

When you say you know of some Christians who get "bent out of shape" about criticisms of Christianity, do you mean some Christians kidnap their non-co-religionists and hold them hostage under threat of death? For days, or months, on international TV?

Or cut to the chase and just behead them immediately?

Do these Christians threaten democratically elected members of our debating chambers with death for "disobeying" the will of their god? Do these Christians get so bent out of shape they blow up trains, stations, office buildings, embassies, ships, military camps?

If your answer to any of the above is No, then you admit your comment is absurd.

In addition, Blair's law against "incitement to religious hatred" is not even - undemocratically - written to protect the people who have most needed it - the Jews - but the hissy Islamics, who can't take a joke, can't take a light comment, can't take a woman seriously if she's not blanketed in a black tablecoth and pillowcase (actually, not even then), are so rigid with fear that - as the evidence of the West shows - they may be wrong!

The equivalency of your post is absolutely chilling.

Posted by Verity at January 31, 2006 12:46 AM

Being religious means never having to say you're sorry. It's an excuse to do whatever you (or your God) want. It's about time religion was subjected to the same scrutiny as pretty much everything else.

Posted by nick at January 31, 2006 12:49 AM

nick. Do not be fatuous.

By the way, what the hell does this mean: "It's about time religion was subjected to the same scrutiny as pretty much everything else." ?? Whoah! A strongman here! An original thinker!! Decisive, too!

What do you think philosophers, who all too clearly have an intellectual head start on you, have been doing for the last 5,000 years? Macramé?

Posted by Verity at January 31, 2006 01:02 AM

Youguys all make me laugh. Free speach? Who has free speach? Oh sure we have the right to say anything we want on a blog that 10 people may read but try getting a different opinion into the mass media where joe six pack has a chance to hear it!

We never really did have the right to free speach. We just have the illusion of it.

Posted by scalpmed at January 31, 2006 01:33 AM

From today's Times:

"There were street demonstrations and flag-burnings in the Middle East. Libya joined Saudi Arabia in withdrawing its ambassador from Copenhagen. Islamic governments and organisations, including the Muslim Council of Britain, issued denunciations and a boycott of Danish goods took hold across the Muslim world."

So just be sure to buy Lurpak, Danish bacon and anything else from Denmark you can get your hands on. Of course, it might be seen as not very "genial", but there we are: faced with a pack of Islamic fascists trying to impose their will on the sane, what else is left, given that the sensible option (instant deportation) is denied us by those whose eyes are glued shut?

Posted by GCooper at January 31, 2006 01:35 AM

Having first seen the cartoons today I've got to say that I can't see what the fuss is about, they are people in glass houses throwing boulders.

If someone was to replicate the most contriversial work of Andres Serrano with the head ROP guy I wonder what would happen...

Posted by Della at January 31, 2006 01:36 AM

It's not fatuous to point out the shortcomings of religious thought. 5000 years of philosophising about how many angels can dance on the head of pin may as well amount to macrame. Islam is a way of thought that should be consigned to history.

Posted by nick at January 31, 2006 01:40 AM

Oh sure we have the right to say anything we want on a blog that 10 people may read

Actually 20,000 read us on a good day.

Posted by Perry de Havilland at January 31, 2006 01:41 AM

nick - May I offer a little hint? Shut up.

Della, you don't seem to understand the enormity of what is happening. The Jyllands-Posten has just apologised that "people were offended".

The beginning of the end, and because none of these brave Anglo-Saxon nations spoke up in their defence, and because Slick Willy gave a speech in Qatr saying he thought the cartoons were "appalling".

Ratched up one notch.

This is a pivotal moment.

No one spoke up for Denmark, because they weren't Danish ...

Posted by Verity at January 31, 2006 01:55 AM

Verity

... there was no one left to speak for me.

A sad day. Another step toward the abyss.

There is an interesting contrast to Slick Willy's comments over on LGF.

Posted by John Steele at January 31, 2006 02:02 AM

I'll check it out, John Steele, and thanks for getting the allusion.

This is a very dangerous moment for Britain and Europe. Why the hell did no one support the Danes, goddammit?

And where the hell does this leave Hirsi Ali and Geert Wilders?

Posted by Verity at January 31, 2006 02:07 AM

Perry : For the most part what is so interesting is what a complete non-meeting of minds these comments represent and they fall into three broad categories:

1. Muslims who simply cannot conceive of tolerating people disrespecting their beliefs.

Nick : It's not fatuous to point out the shortcomings of religious thought.

Verity : nick - May I offer a little hint? Shut up.

Interesting.

Posted by nick at January 31, 2006 02:09 AM

Denmark, lovely little country, I'm sorry (&slightly ashamed) for you.
For the rest of the gutless bend-over-backwards liberal scum: Utter contempt.
I have commented here before......maybe you should be reminded for whatever good it will do us all:
THESE PEOPLE WANT TO KILL US............Geddit.

Posted by permanent expat at January 31, 2006 02:11 AM

When I read the word "interesting" in some of these comments I hope that the writer has the old Chinese curse in mind. It is the only possible interpretation.

Posted by permanent expat at January 31, 2006 02:17 AM

First of all, the reason so much of the media is so bland and mealy mouthed about everything is the very same fear that drives so much of political correctness---someone designated as a protected, vulnerable, blah-blah-blah type might get the vapors.

This does not apply to straight, white, male, christians involved in capitalist enterprises. They, by definition, are responsible for all that is wrong in the world, have no feelings, and must cringe in shame for all their past offenses regardless of the vileness of the slander directed their way.

A case in point is the recent cover of Rolling Stone which parodies the image of Jesus' torture by the Romans.

Secondly, the stakes here are very high. If the stink being made about these cartoons achieves its very clear objective, the self-censorship of artists, media, and publishers will be further strangthened. Then, augmented by the perverted speech codes and hate-speech ordinances that are currently in vogue, any realistic criticism or examination of Islam, among many other subjects, would be completely off-limits.

Finally, there is a very good reason that blogs like this, of which there are several million at last count, (although most do not have such distinguished contributors), overflow with opinions which will not ever be allowed on the 6 o'clock news.

Ordinary people are not allowed to clutter up the airwaves with their opinions and ideas. They are not nuanced, sophisticated, educated, or careful enough in what they think and say.

Why, some of those blue collar types actually think that if someone attacks us, we should just blow them up and to hell with 'em. Can't have that, old bean, don't ya know? Why, you could get the idea we're at war.

Posted by veryretired at January 31, 2006 02:18 AM

nick - you are stuck on stupid. (Please refer to the magnificent General Honoré who came in and got NO's ass in gear.) That means you wake up in the morning and drink a large mug of stupid before tying your trainers. My suggestion, tie both feet of your running shoes together and then run downstairs to get the door.

And Perry de Havilland has a pretty acute eye for comments on his own blog and doesn't need your eager assistance.

Do have a famous blog of your own, by the way?

Posted by Verity at January 31, 2006 02:22 AM

veryretired: for some uninhibited blue-collar comment you should pay a visit to "The Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiller"

Posted by permanent expat at January 31, 2006 02:27 AM

Verity

I've done just about the only thing I can do, I wrote to the editor at Jyllands-Posten.

While I see this as a dark day I told the editor that despite the fact that Jyllands-Posten has capitualted in the fact of threats and intimidation, there may be a bright side to it; I assume that Jyllands-Posten would never, ever caracature, ridicule, criticize or offend Christians, Jews, Hindus, et al, ever again.

A dark day indeed.

Posted by John Steele at January 31, 2006 02:32 AM

The Jyllands-Posten has just apologised that "people were offended".

However they pointedly did not apologise for actually publishing the cartoons, nor did they say they would not do it again. They were sorry that some people were offended, and that is far from just a semantic matter.

Posted by Perry de Havilland at January 31, 2006 02:33 AM

Perry
They will not do it again, they've learned the lesson.
They don't have to apologize for publishing and they don't have to day they won't do it again. Somehow the situation will never present itself again.

Posted by John Steele at January 31, 2006 02:36 AM

MONEY QUOTE: If the stink being made about these cartoons achieves its very clear objective, the self-censorship of artists, media, and publishers will be further strangthened. Then, augmented by the perverted speech codes and hate-speech ordinances that are currently in vogue, any realistic criticism or examination of Islam, among many other subjects, would be completely off-limits. - very retired.

Why did not one Western leader come forward and support Mr Rasmussen's incredibly brave stand? What kind of cowards are they? Well, we know that T Blair wees down his leg when frightened and gives in immediately. Jacques Chirac - I cannot figure him out. Does he really not understand that les deux rives de la mediterannée is an insane concept? Because, as very retired rightly implies, the 'speech codes' that have been overlaid on the West have been snuck in by people who weren't elected.

'Speech codes' are a leftist agenda that has somehow become embedded in the West through sheer determination and lack of alertness.

The same thing is happening with militant Islam. Lack of alertness. How could the governments of the civilised West have failed to have supported the brave Mr Rasmussen and the brave editors of Jyllands-Posten?

How could they?

Posted by Verity at January 31, 2006 02:46 AM

Verity: How could they?........................!!!

Posted by permanent expat at January 31, 2006 02:52 AM

permanent expat .... yeah.

Cowards. Yellow streak down their backs. The white feather.

Why did no elected representative in the Anglosphere table a motion in their debating chamber in support of Denmark? Not one! The Daneds have stood alone for October, November, December and January. That is one hell of a lot of pressure from crazy people taking their case to their bonkers "Islamic councils", UN bodies, ambassadors, trade commissions and shit like that. They have stood up with great honour, but how long can a tiny country stand up without a big country saying, "We're on your side." What on earth was President Bush thinking?

OK, I know we're engaged in a war and this may have come at a bad time for him, but Condoleezza? Rumsfeld? Anyone? A lower level person from State?

But nothing?

Never mind John Howard, couldn't at least one elected representative in Canberra have tabled a motion of support? Couldn't one American representative, or governor or school board member have tabled a motion of support? We are talking of a tiny nation, here. Smaller than many American cities, and they held out until they realised there was nothing beneath their feet.

Posted by Verity at January 31, 2006 03:06 AM

.......................except other peoples' feet......of clay.

Posted by permanent expat at January 31, 2006 03:40 AM

Declaring similarities of fundamentalist Muslims with fundamentalist Christians is absurd.

Here is a not atypical web sight attacking blasphemies against Christ. (considered 'God the Son' by Christians. Mohammed is only a prophet to Muslims.)

Note the domain name.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's%20Corner/myth_of_the_magical_arts_bureauc.htm(Link)

In the left column are a couple of examples, the most famous being a picture of a crucifix in a bottle of the artists urine.

Then this fundamentalist web site advocates for having something of the artists' cut off. Their heads? No. Their taxpayer funding!

Some people need a reality check.

Posted by Midwesterner at January 31, 2006 03:54 AM

Midwesterner:........................Some people? I think, respectfully, you meant to say Western Society.

Posted by permanent expat at January 31, 2006 04:14 AM

For anyone who had any doubts that The Economist has gone completely off its tree, here's a excerpt of what they printed about the cartoons episode last weeK:

Louise Arbour, the United Nations human-rights commissioner, said she was "alarmed" by such an "unacceptable disregard for the beliefs of others". Similar condemnations came from the European Commission, the Council of Europe and the Arab League. The affair has led to protest marches in Copenhagen and Karachi, and a wave of disapproving e-mails to Danish embassies. The cartoons were even condemned by many in Denmark's liberal-minded intelligentsia, not because they favour censorship but because they see the drawings as part of an increasingly xenophobic tone that has infected all Danish dealings with foreigners.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20857
Posted by hm at January 31, 2006 05:25 AM

They have stood up with great honour, but how long can a tiny country stand up without a big country saying, "We're on your side."

So long as all that's happening is talking? Indefinitely.

Are Europeans so timid that they cannot ignore criticism? I had thought Danes made of sterner stuff than that, but apparently I was mistaken.

Posted by rosignol at January 31, 2006 07:53 AM

Perry,

I think most of your hits are comming from people following links to my page with copies of the cartoons. Hosting this page has been enlightening. The Muslim response reminds me most closely of the reactions of a playground bully being insulted by his erstwhile victims.

Posted by Francis at January 31, 2006 08:05 AM

PS forgot to point out that thanks to ZANU labour's Religious Incitement bill publishing these cartoons in the UK could be illegal shortly

Posted by Francis at January 31, 2006 08:06 AM

I didn't see many category-1 comments while I could sustain interest in the story. Were they ones that enerally floated in later by referral?

If so, I'm quite surprised they felt like participating on top of a solid bed of category-2. Maybe religious conviction makes you more resilient.

I'd put it slightly stronger than Bernie. There are quite a few similarly unreconcilable Christians though they generally (but not always) keep a low profile. That's because they know they are socially weak, and they understand, even if they do not accept, the separation of religon and other aspects of life in our society.

It has taken a long and bloody struggle in Western society for them to be as cowed as they are. The Reformation and Enlightenment couldn't be said to be complete in the whole of western Europe until the fall of Franco. There are parts of North America where a fierce Christian solipsism bubbles in conflict with the secular order, but is restrained by being embedded in a clear constitutional tradition of debate on such questions with the more secular streams in society.

Separation of church and state, and of state and civil society, and of a non-religious civil society from religious institutions, was not conceivable in many Islamic traditions, but that doesn't mean it can't be developed (or continue to develop where it has some basis). Inevitably the most religious people, those consumed by piety, will resist this, just as their Christian counterparts do. It doesn't mean that such differentiation and positive dis-integration in society is impossible just because zealots insist it is.

But, but, and yet again but... Bernie is also right to point out our present government does not value free speech. And I'd put it stronger than that. They are implicitly - at the level of value rather than declared policy - actually opposed to free speech, for precisely the same reason as the religious zealots. The governing caste believes that only those views should be expressed that bring harmony in society, that opposition and conflict are inherently undesirable because there is a permanent, determinate, right way proceeding a fortiori from their principles. Hence the impulse, not just to close down rival world-views directly, but to annexe any institution that might show independence.

The faith-groups that find oblique support for their frothings in government should be beware. They may find themselves first coopted, then privileged, then registered to obtain privilege, then regulated to police the registration, made compliant, made dependent, subordinated, turned into instruments.

Posted by guy herbert at January 31, 2006 08:45 AM

Verity,

Although I generally agree with your sentiments I sometimes find your language a bit extreme. However, if I may paraphrase the late Senator Barry Goldwater -

extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.

Go girl go.

Posted by Chris Harper at January 31, 2006 09:17 AM

Just a casual search turns up some truly horrific anti-Semitic and anti-any-other-religion Arab newspaper cartoons. I wonder what the reaction of the Danish Imams would have been had something as unpleasant as this [link] been published in Jyllands-Posten instead of in Al-Quds.

It's supposed to be of the Iraqis and the Palestinians being crucufied in the same way that 'the Jews murdered Jesus Christ', as if that is supposed to rouse some kind of empathy from Christians.

Posted by Julian Taylor at January 31, 2006 09:25 AM

Edgar M. Bronfman, New York president of the World Jewish Congress

and

Israel Singer, New York chairman of the WJC Policy Council

Don't get it:

Freedom of speech

Caricatures depicting the Prophet Muhammad published in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten provoked an uproar among Muslims, not just in Denmark, but across the Islamic world ("Cartoons ignite cultural combat in Denmark," Dec. 31).

If the cartoons in question were published to stir up public opinion against Muslims in Denmark, as one editor suggested, something has gone wrong. The cartoons managed to offend all Muslims instead of focusing on those fanatics that actually merit criticism.

Sometimes, provocations are necessary to wake people up. Over the past 30 years, our organization, the World Jewish Congress, has been no stranger to that. But religious customs, practices and beliefs by followers of other religions should be respected by everyone.

Although we all should have the right to freedom of speech, the law may make it an offense to shout "fire!" in a crowded auditorium as this might cause a panic and physical harm. Words and actions that predictably provoke strong reactions and anger, however unjustified this may be, should be limited, at least when it comes to religious beliefs.

It is the job of governments and lawmakers to make sure that immigrants treated with respect because democracies are tested on how they deal with their minorities.

In the last 2,000 years, lies about Jews, the Jewish faith and our traditions have never disappeared. In fact, they are staging a comeback, especially in Western democracies, which we thought had become immune to anti-Semitism after the horrors of the Holocaust. But Catholic-Jewish dialogue has also shown that centuries-old prejudices can be overcome by listening to one another instead of just talking about the other.

Jewish intellectuals and politicians have always been at the forefront of fighting for human rights, democracy and free speech. But there are limits to the latter. We cannot restrict Freedom of Speech. We need to restrict ourselves.

Publishing materials considered offensive by a small religious minority goes too far. It is as wrong as the discrimination against Christian or Jewish populations that takes place in some Islamic countries.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/01/26/opinion/edlet.php#

Posted by hm at January 31, 2006 11:13 AM

I made sure to buy Danish salami at the supermarket yesterday and would encourage everybody to buy Danish products. It looks as if Laurence Simon & I are going to put up a Buycott Denmark page sometime soon.

It is a bit encouraging to see one country on the continent standing up to Muslims. Its sad to see their fellow Vikings in Norway cow-tow to pressure for the Islamic hordes.

If you wish to show your support for Denmark on your chest; Murray can help you.

Posted by Andrew Ian Dodge at January 31, 2006 11:51 AM

Mmmm! Taste that Danablu freedom cheese!!

"We cannot restrict Freedom of Speech. We need to restrict ourselves."

Voluntary self-restraint in the abscene of threats of force is sometimes warranted. In this situation, however, it is better to publish the cartoons and to hell with the Muslims, so to speak. It is much better that the Danes, and other Europeans and Americans assert not simply our claim on freedom of speech, but also the wider claim that a liberal* society should not accommodate totalitarianism. And Islam is totalitarian.

Posted by mike at January 31, 2006 12:26 PM

*liberal in the classical sense, of course.

Posted by mike at January 31, 2006 12:28 PM

It is spelled kowtow, 'cow-tow' is how you transport cattle in a trailer.

I'm interested as to why you feel people should be encouraged to buy Danish products simply as a gesture of support to an article in that particular newspaper, especially when you consider that the 'Danish salami' you purchased was in all likelihood made in another EU state, or even in your own country. As for the original cartoons that appeared in Morgenavisen Jyllands-Posten you might want to read the 'Honourable Fellow Citizens of the Muslim World' statement released by Carsten Juste yesterday, a statement that seeks to shed some light upon this entire affair.

It is unfortunate that a competition designed to demonstrate freedom of religious expression in a country such as Danmark should be hijacked by the fouler elements of both radical Islam and of the right and left in the West. Of all the modern nations it would seem that only Israel’s media has taken an objective view of this whole business with press commentary ranging from sympathy with those Muslims trying to deal with this matter in a mature, civilized manner through to analysis of why many Muslims feel perturbed at the cartoons. Coming from a country trying to come to terms with the recent Hamas election fiasco I would certainly feel more affinity with them that I certainly do with someone who says such ridiculous things has,

Its sad to see their fellow Vikings in Norway cow-tow to pressure for the Islamic hordes.

Posted by Sander at January 31, 2006 01:05 PM

Francis - I don't know where your site is, but those cartoons have been all over the internet for four months. They're linked everywhere. There are much better - meaner and funnier - cartoons posted on Albions Seedings and there are some hyterical songs, including one called "It's in The Koran" on Little Green Footballs. (Links to the left.) There are also some horrible, nightmarish renderings of Mohammad.

If the Jyllands-Posten "apologised" in the manner of "Well, I'm sorry if my parking close to your driveway offends you, but tough", that would be all right. But I suspect it is more than that.

This speaks so badly for the cowardice of the West I really don't see any hope. Not one elected official anywhere supported the newspaper. Is this primitive, bigotted, cruel, repressive religion really that scary to elected representatives of major countries.

I feel great pity for Hirsi Ali and Geert Wilders.

Posted by Verity at January 31, 2006 01:14 PM

Verity writes:

"Is this primitive, bigotted, cruel, repressive religion really that scary to elected representatives of major countries."

It is when the venal bastards are trying to secure their votes.

Posted by GCooper at January 31, 2006 01:17 PM

Barry Goldwater was indeed a great man. For example, a Christian who was not afraid to say that other Christians who used religion as an excuse to attack the liberty of others should get "kicked up the arse" (and rightly so - for if someone violates the nonaggression principle and attacks other people, he deserves to be punished).

Today Mr Blair and his cronies are putting their "incitement to religious hatred" (i.e. death to another part of what is left of free speech) bill before the House of Commons.

It is normal in politics to stress how people may take different points of view and still be decent (one must not claim all virtue for one's own side and so on).

However, in this case, (as the whole vile scheme has been exposed again and again, and in so many places that no M.P. can honestly claim not to know what they are voting for) it can be stated that a Member of the House of Commons who votes for this bill is not "a decent person who has another point of view", they are evil.

It really does come to something as simple as that. People who vote for this bill are bad, they know the bill is about destroying freedom and on that basis (in the hopes of winning a few Muslim votes - and not, of course, from tolerant Muslims) they are willing to destroy another part what is left of free speech.

I hope a full list of the M.P.s who vote for this bill (and their constituencies) is published and widely distributed - so that people know who not to vote for at the next general election.

Everyone who lives in the constituency of one of these M.P.s should write to them to express (politely) their total disgust and horror at their action.

Posted by Paul Marks at January 31, 2006 01:28 PM

What Paul Marks said, with the exception of the parenthesised "politely". Why be polite to someone who has taken a hatchet to your rights?

Anyway, I found the "It's in the Koran" link: (Link)

There are a lot of other funny songs out there, obviously professionally produced.

Posted by Verity at January 31, 2006 01:38 PM

Latest news from the Religion of Peace: two Arla employees in Saudi Arabia have been severely beaten by customers. Hat tip Dhimmi Watch.

Posted by Verity at January 31, 2006 01:54 PM

The good news is that some committed Christians and Muslims will stand up with secularists for free speech. See today's Daily Telegraph letters:

As people with strong views on religion, we know how easy it is to offend those with whom you disagree and how easy it is to resent what others say, and see insult in it.

But we also recognise that a free society must have the scope to debate, criticise, proselytise, insult and even to ridicule belief and religious practices in order to ensure that there is full scope - short of violence or inciting violence or other criminal offences - to tackle these issues.

Posted by guy herbert at January 31, 2006 01:55 PM

What Verity points to is indeed terrible. However, as Guy points out, not all Muslims follow this line.

As someone who can not read classical Arabic (indeed I can not read Arabic at all) I am very aware that I have to rely on translations of the Koran.

I also hope that the day will come when most Muslims (like most Christians) accept that the Koran is NOT the "direct word of God", but is the word of man (both their prophet and his scribes and assistants) which may have been INSPIRED by God.

However, I accept (before Verity points it out) that this is not the position of most Muslims today.

Posted by Paul Marks at January 31, 2006 02:17 PM

"Above all else, the Devil cannot stand to be mocked." — C. S. Lewis

"I'll bet the Devil's really upset now." — Islam Comic Book Webmaster

http://islamcomicbook.com/lyrics1.htm

Posted by oseaghdha at January 31, 2006 02:32 PM

That song is perfect, Verity. So much so, it could even have been produced by you for all we know!

Posted by mike at January 31, 2006 02:39 PM

Ho ho ho, mike and thanks, but no. I thought it was interesting that this poor man was singing through a vodeo thing to disguise his voice. There are some other clever ones, much better produced, in the style of New Orleans jazz, with really good singing. But I can't find the link.

I think these bigotted, narrow, primitive morons are going to find themselves defeated by the anarchic freedom of the internet. Jyllands-Posten published some really not very good cartoons and cartoon rage was born. Now while they go crouching and whining to the UN and their Muslim councils and councils of mosques and mosques of Muslims and committees of councils and god knows what, cartoon rage has rounded on them and taken a bite out of their ass.

Posted by Verity at January 31, 2006 03:00 PM

Yes well here's to more of this stuff getting around!

Posted by mike at January 31, 2006 03:38 PM

And now comes the oil threat. (Link)

BAHRAIN'S parliament is outraged at insult to Islam.

"An apology from the Danish daily newspaper Jyllands-Posten, was not enough, said MPs"

"They said the apology should come from head of state Queen Margrethe and from the Danish government."

"We should also stop exporting the 159,000 daily oil barrels to Denmark in co-ordination with other GCC countries."

Ok, let them stop the oil. It will hurt us fore some time, but we will find others ways, and then they can sit on there f...... oil and eat it.

We cant cave in to some middeleast islamic fanatics who wants to dictate what we can say or do in our own country.

Posted by Henning at January 31, 2006 03:47 PM

mike - that link you posted was the one I was referring to. Those songs aren't bad! I particularly liked "Put A Bomb in Your Shoe".

Re the oil, I have a feeling their Viking cousins the Norwegians would come to their aid PDQ.

Has no one ever told these cretins - when in a hole, stop digging? But this is how vicious they are.

Posted by Verity at January 31, 2006 04:01 PM

Hey Mohammed! Here's half a buck. Go buy yourself a sense of humor.

Posted by Rusty at January 31, 2006 04:21 PM

Verity,

Can you post a link to the cartoons which are actually circulating in the ME, not the harmless ones? I want to see what the fuss is about. Thanks.

Posted by marie at January 31, 2006 04:22 PM

Hi Maria.

This is what the fuss is about. (Link)

This is the 12 cartoons that was printed in Jyllands-Posten in september.

Posted by Henning at January 31, 2006 04:31 PM

That link to the cartoons is already in the article's last paragraph.

Posted by Perry de Havilland at January 31, 2006 04:33 PM

Verity: I had guessed as much.

IIRC Mr De Havilland recently posted about military strategy regarding Iran in which he stated his preference for funding domestic anti-government insurgency. Might I suggest that a few cartoons and funny songs such as these linked to on comments on Iranian blogs like this couldn't hurt - just in case someone knows how to translate them.

Of course, if the situation weren't so serious, you would think President Armageddon's promises "to take oil money directly to the people’s house and table" would be dark piss-taking enough.

Posted by mike at January 31, 2006 04:34 PM

Henning,

I've seen those ones. Aren't there supposed to be some really offensive ones that didn't originate in Denmark being posted in the ME as though they are from Denmark? I thought that is what made them more riled? If anyone knows of the existence of these more offensive cartoons and can link to them, I would like to know what the fuss is about.

Thanks, Marie

Posted by marie at January 31, 2006 04:50 PM

Not one elected official anywhere supported the newspaper. Or the Danes ....

To hell with "elected officials".

Why don't all the media in the West reproduce these cartoons on their front page ???
All of them ! (Or many of them !).

Isn't freedom of expression dear to them ? Here is a cheap and simple way to express their support of Freedom of Expression !

Then the Muslims would maybe know how we feel about it in the West. They they will have a lot of countries to boycott !

Posted by Jacob at January 31, 2006 04:55 PM

Because, Jacob, Jyllands-Posten has refused to release the copyright. They don't want to be accused of actually contributing to this ridiculous brouhaha. Papers have asked to buy the cartoons and the answser has been nej.

I would rather see some official recognition of the stance that Denmark has adopted. I would like some elected representatives to stand up and say, "We speak for the American/British/Australian ... whatever ... people and we stand shoulder to shoulder with Denmark."

Posted by Verity at January 31, 2006 05:18 PM

Maria.

Those are the original cartoons printed in Jyllands-Posten in september.
There are many pics on the net that are more "blasfemic" than these.
And the delegation of danish Imans that went on a trip to the middeleast in december to raise support, did have some pics of Muhammad as a pig, but these where "just" some pics that muslims had recived in there private mail, or some they have found on the net somewhere. They have never been printed in any newspaper. But the spoksman for the delegation Imam Ahmed Akkari said that theres nothing wrong in showing these pics in arab media !!!! Despite that they have not been printed in any danish media.

There was supposed to be 29 islamic societys in Denmark that had sign the protest that the delegation took with them to the middeleast trip. But 5 dont excist, 10 have never been asked and would not have sign.

Posted by Henning at January 31, 2006 05:55 PM

Jyllands-Posten published some really not very good cartoons

I agree. And am glad to see that I'm not the only one who thinks the vast majority of the cartoons were more or less toothless - but far more devastating in terms of professional standing for a satirical cartoonist - not particularly interesting, enlightening or cleverly reflective of modern society.

However, if the fundamentalists and their "moderate" allies wish to demonise and denounce them, I'll happily leap to the defence of such mediocre scribblings.

Posted by James Waterton at January 31, 2006 05:59 PM

Henning
re: The oil threat

Were I President I would ask Congress to make up the shortfall from our Strategic Reserve. Free peoples need to stand together.

In the immortal words of an American patriot “If we do not hang together, we shall surely hang separately.”

Posted by John Steele at January 31, 2006 06:04 PM

Henning - Marie had already said she wasn't looking for the Jyllands-Posten cartoons which the entire world and his brother has seen many, many times. She is looking for other links she has heard about.

I have no idea. I have seen one link with truly gruesome pictures of Mahommad on it, but I don't have the link. You should be able to google links, though.

Hey! I've just thought of the real reason the Islamics are so paranoid and bonkers! How would you feel if every other man in your country and surrounding countries had your first name? I mean, wouldn't you feel a bit diminished? It could make you crazy. No wonder they do truly bizarre things to try to stand out from the crowd.

Posted by Verity at January 31, 2006 06:07 PM

Henning--
Oil is fungible. If Bahrain doesn't sell it to Denmark, Denmark can buy it from the US buying it from Bahrain, or wherever. It's not that big a deal, merely a minor annoyance.

Scalpmed--
You obviously haven't a clue about what free speech means. Free speech means you have the right to say it; it doesn't mean you have the right to make others listen, nor to force a private company to give you a platform.

Posted by Kerry at January 31, 2006 06:39 PM

Well... first off I am Danish, came by this site just today browsing on the current 'crisis', good site :) thought to leave a little message...

I am not sorry nor do i wish to appoligize for the drawings that the JP printed, it was within their rights and the Danish laws to do so and as a freedom loving person i support the freedom of speach and expression... even when it comes from someone i don't agree with... as long as it is within the danish laws...

With Regards, A Dane

Posted by Peter Baltzer at January 31, 2006 07:09 PM

Today I learned that muslim rebels in Iraq have issued a Fatwa against the Danish troops who are there as Denmark’s contribution to the Coalition. This shouldn’t really surprise anyone, as the issuing of Fatwas seems to be the standard answer to anything the muslims don’t like.

In honour of this latest Fatwa I have taken it upon myself to issue a Fatwa of my own.

I hereby decree that due to my blatantly apparent moral and ethical superiority to the Islamic extremists the following orders shall be carried out.

All Danish companies shall hire muslims only to carry out the most demeaning and trivial of tasks, and only if such tasks are rewarded with a low salary.

All Danish Universities and places of higher learning shall only accept one in a hundred muslims, and let even fewer graduate.

The Danish Police and Danish Courts shall arrest and convict muslims in such a number as to make them disproportionately represented in the various crime statistics (Sometimes by a ratio so disproportionate that they will be more than 1000 times more likely to commit certain crimes than native Danes)

The Danish Population shall treat muslims with contempt wherever they encounter them, leaving them to feel isolated both socially and economically.

So let it be written, so let it be done. My every command shall be carried out.

Wow, my Fatwa is already working….

Posted by D.D. at January 31, 2006 09:58 PM

I would say you cut this Danish crab talk about your Freedom Of Speech. it's just another term you use in the west for the Freedom To Insult people we hate for no basis. In my words I would call it The Evil Of Speech.

You describe ME Muslims as a primitive cave men who still live in the desert, while you are the civilized people who live in a sophisticated cities among civilized societies......... this is crab......... it's just hard for you to understand diversity that GOD created in this world.

your civilization the way I see it is the ultimate indignity and humiliation of the human race ever since human lived on this earth. the civilization that stands for Women Rights and on the other hand Insult women and use thier naked bodies as a cheap marketing tool.

A civilization that abuses drugs and alcohol by the name of the low. a civilization that promote legal prostitution and pornography by the name of Human Rights and on the other hand ban the Muslim girls in France to obey their GOD and to live with modest manners by wearing their Hijab ( head cover)....... it's the civilisation of Irony.... dont you think so !!!!

you still claim to be civilised right ?........ I know.
OK then...in any civilised society, If I came to you and start to swear on your face in public and accuse you with things you never done, you can surly take me to court and sue me for this, and I might have to sell my house to pay you for the false accusations and the psychological harm I caused for you.... Right !!!

My point is that it can never be an act of civilization by any human constitutions to Insult an Innocent man and to make fun of him in your public channels by the name of your alleged Freedom Of Speech ( just because of the acts of some radical Irresponsible Muslims who claim to be representing the real Islam ). Have you ever heard or read anything from the prophet Mohammed that provokes hate towards other prople....... I am sure not....., So you have no right of Insulting this great man and accuse him with things he never done.

Prophet Mohammed is the greatest man you will ever hear of, he brought peace and justice to this modern world.

Stop grabing your Information from your blind-justice media. Go and read about this great prophet. read about him from the words of the fair western people before you hit the Islamic libraries.

If you want to keep claiming that this is a Freedom Of Speech, I suggest that you leave your cities and go live in the forest where the strong prevail, leave the cities for more civilized people to live in. for your sad fortune I would like to remind you that We live in a civilized world, We dont live in a forest, and you are not alone in this world.

Insulting Innocent people in the public media and accusing them with things they never done can in no way be a civilized act or a Freedom Of Speech.

this was not meant to be rude, I am just trying to say that there are different points of view in this world. try to see this issue from a different angle. this is a civilized world we live in and every nation has its role in building the modern world ( though some people act against human race and they only aim at humiliating and destroying this human race) however, we want to keep this world civilized, we need to respect each other.

I dont mean that all Danish People are like this, of course i am sure that lots of them dont agree on this shameless, irresponsible action against other people believes, I am just talking to those extremist who think that they live in the forest........ they know themselves.

Here you go guys........ you have a rich material to act upon......... come on..... hit me

Posted by Sam-j at January 31, 2006 11:41 PM

it's just another term you use in the west for the Freedom To Insult people

Correct. Freedom of speech really does mean the freedom to insult people. You can do it too (you just did, in fact) but unlike your fragile culture which panics at the idea that non-believing rationalists might actually express their views, most westerners could not care less what you say about us, just so long as you are not threatening violence (and frankly threatening violence is the only way Islamists have to get our attention, that is how much we rate your civilisation).

Your comment slags off western civilisation in favour of your dark ages ideas, and you know what? People in the west (and indeed on this blog) may call you an ignorant arsehole but they will not call for you to be 'punished' or arrested and that is where you are revealed as the fascist masquerading as a victim.

Oh, and we like our pornography, thank you very much, and as a culture are very good at producing it too. See? We do not just make better weapons and computers and, well, pretty much everything in fact, we actually have more fun too.

I have met many muslim individuals who I liked and respected but Islamic culture has nothing to offer any rational member of a first world society. The future is secular... hell, the present is secular.

Posted by Perry de Havilland at January 31, 2006 11:57 PM

Crikey!....Was that a spoof by Verity?
Maybe not. The towelhead only confirmed (using despised Western technology) that his so-called culture, once the great pride of the Arab world, has recidivated into pre-mediaevilsm. This hypocrite more than likely lives in a Western country which allows him the freedoms he despises and, should that be the case I can only recommend a one-way steerage flight on a plane made by a well-known Syrian manufacturer to be dumped anywhere there's a lot of camels & sand, Oz excepted. He can find his own way to his brother's herd of goats simply by using his Saudi-made GPS.

Posted by permanentexpat at February 1, 2006 01:09 AM

and frankly threatening violence is the only way Islamists have to get our attention

Sadly they've become rather good at it.

Posted by Scott Wickstein at February 1, 2006 01:39 AM

Steamin', Perry!

Sam-j says: If you want to keep claiming that this is a Freedom Of Speech, I suggest that you leave your cities and go live in the forest where the strong prevail ... (and where we would also enjoy "Freedom of Speech" because who's going to stop us?).

Other than the utter disconnection in this sentence, how high up are you (and your co-religionists) on the food chain, Sam? You think the strong don't prevail in the corporate world (in the cities), where we find so few of your fellows? Why would we want to leave central heating and hot water and warm cars and electric lights and refrigerators and microwaves?

Go back to the forest and you're going to get all these strong Muslims flocking out of the caves and the sand dunes and suddenly prevailing against the West in this forest? No. We, not bound by chains on our minds and are free to create solutions, which is what has made us powerful and left you behind as the weak who couldn't keep up.

(BTW, I suggest you leave the forest.)

Prophet Mohammed is the greatest man you will ever hear of, he brought peace and justice to this modern world. Look around you. You've been brainwashed since birth. You're ignorant. Your mind is a steel trap that hasn't been opened since you were born. The poorest, most backward people in the world are from the religion of peace.

If you're offended by the West, you will oblige us by going back to your forest. But do not entertain dreams of dominating people who are vastly more advanced technologically and, via our legal systems and our social systems, than you.

You are not - the oft-told lie - a once-great civilisation that has been dormant. You have always been at the stage you have been now. Your astronomy and physics were from the brilliant (Hindu) minds of India, passing through the dead wood (there's that forest again!) of the Middle East on their way to the West, where they would be adopted to startling effect.

And yes, we do have the "freedom to insult people for no basis". Under our sophisticated legal system, those people "insulted without basis", perhaps, the ultimate horror, even by women, are free to sue us for hundreds of thousands of pounds/dollars. If they win, the offending party is obliged by law to pay off. If they don't, they get banged up.

Very straight forward in a non-forest sense.

What is strange about your post is, English is obviously your second language. What is your first?

Posted by Verity at February 1, 2006 01:43 AM

Thank you, Sam-j, for finally explaining something.

Even given that your religious cult offers a warped, twisted perversion of reality and that, by definition, anyone who believes what s/he reads in the koran has abandoned reason, I'd never quite been able to work out the appeal of suicide, as beloved of so many of your co-religionists.

But then, if I found out I had been duped by a cult started by a paedophile, a misogynist and a sociopath, I'd probably want to kill myself, too.

Posted by GCooper at February 1, 2006 02:09 AM

Thank you, Sam-j, for finally explaining something.

Even given that your religious cult offers a warped, twisted perversion of reality and that, by definition, anyone who believes what s/he reads in the koran has abandoned reason, I'd never quite been able to work out the appeal of suicide, as beloved of so many of your co-religionists.

But then, if I found out I had been duped by a cult started by a paedophile, a misogynist and a sociopath, I'd probably want to kill myself, too.

That's harsh. Ouch.

Prophet Mohammed is the greatest man you will ever hear of, he brought peace and justice to this modern world.

Sam-j, your post had some stuff worth thinking about, and maybe even noting. However, the absurdity of this particular sentence makes the rest of your post utterly unpalatable. I'm fairly ignorant of the historical accounts of Mohammed, and am honest enough to say so, but "peace and justice?" Come on, my 2 year old knows better than to swallow that one.
Posted by Winzeler at February 1, 2006 02:58 AM

Additions to Verity's notes on Hindu contributions to Islamic (Arabic) science. Their philosophy was also Greek (Plato and Aristotle) and many of the mathematical advances that are ascribed to the Arabs actually came about due to the intellectual ferment brought about by the expansion of the Mongols (re: Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World).

Mohammad has always struck me as a "how convenient" sort of religious leader. Are you a camel caravan trader tired of being charged interest on loans to outfit your trading expeditions? Amazingly, God says: Interest on loans is forbidden! How convenient. Are neighboring townspeople and perfidious Jewish merchants beating you in the market? God says: They're proscribed and fair game for rapine and slaughter! Bonus: It's all in the name of peace! How convenient! I love being the Prophet (Profit?) of the Lord!

Posted by SK Peterson at February 1, 2006 03:53 AM

well.... my comment has obviously made some people angry....... again it was not meant to do so. I was just trying to say that there are other people living in this world, you should be aware of this fact.you guys need to behave yourselves. you should not exercise what you consider as your freedom of speech on other Innocent people around you regardless of their feelings. especially when your weird rationalism get you to interpret Freedom as the freedom to Insult other people as my friend here in this blog said: (Correct. Freedom of speech really does mean the freedom to insult people . it's really shocking to hear this from a member of afirst world society .

Speaking of violence can any of you tell me what the hell are your western rationalist troops are doing in Iraq........ please i would like to hear any other explanation rather than the rotten claim ofLooking for weapens of mass destruction, which your civilized technology invented in the first place and offered to the modern world.

Oh, and we like our pornography, thank you very much, and as a culture are very good at producing it too. See? We do not just make better weapons and computers and, well, pretty much everything in fact, we actually have more fun too.

I just wonder if any rationalist, educated, western woman is aware of this fact that in their societies they are being used as a way to have fun or maybe as a weapon to destroy humanity.

however, I would like to add to your highly advanced knowledge that my dark ages ideas is the very outspreading and firm ideology since it started 14 hundred years ago. it started with one great man and now almost quarter of the world population is Muslims........... have you ever asked your rational selves why?............ defenetly not because its a cult of paedophile, a misogynist and a sociopath. . and by the way if you are just by any chance aware of your surrounding you will notice that it's the most active RELIGION in terms of followers taking their religion seriously. ( with all respect to other heavenly religions ).

The future is secular... hell, the present is secular.

yes you are right the present of your western world is unfortunately secular, but the present that has no past is the cause of what you called the fragile culture...... believe me its just a matter of time and you will find out this fact. , unfortunately your secularism has no refrence but the non-proven theories that prove its failure every now and then ).,

however, i would suggest thet you leave your prophecies about the future for other people who can read the contemporary events better than you, because as it appears to me you dont realy think of the consequences of your acts.

Look around you. You've been brainwashed since birth. You're ignorant. Your mind is a steel trap that hasn't been opened since you were born

I wonder who has been brainwashed, you'r Judging someone since his birth, and you just met him on-line about an hour ago.......... I assume this could be just another shape of your prejudice against Islam.

The poorest, most backward people in the world are from the religion of peace.

this could be true in your material way of thinking, but if so, it's just because some decision makers in the Islamis world are following the fake western claims about democracy and human rights, against the will of their people.

What is strange about your post is, English is obviously your second language. What is your first?
I wonder again if it's realy strange that i am not a native English speaker, however, i am impressed with your accurate notice

I'll answer this just for your curiosity. I am a Middle Eastern and my first language is Arabic......... I have the bless to understand Quran just as it was revealed from His All Mighty God........ I hope i am not adding flame to your prejudice

to add to this Issue, I have moved between all this man-made theories and Ideologies for many years, before I finally find out, by thinking and reading, that no one knows whats better for human race than the one who created it at the first place......... think about it.

anyway,sorry for talking too much, but I enjoyed being here with you and express my feelings.

I got to run now, its time for Salah Fajer ( Morning prayers).

Its Ok guys, you can keep throwing your Insults on me, I might catch with you later and read what you have to say.

Posted by sam-j at February 1, 2006 04:21 AM

Sam says his comment has "obviously" made some people angry. No. That is an insecure Muslim point of view. No one's angry, sam. Your problem is, we don't gived a crap.

You're talking primeval rubbish, though. You say 1/4 of the world is Muslim, which may be true. One quarter of the human race is below the mean level of intelligence, and it's nice to have them all gathered together in a neat little bundle.

Tidy.

Posted by Verity at February 1, 2006 04:57 AM

sam-j

Your argument will get a lot further if Muslims stop trying to kill anyone who disagrees with them. Stop threatening anyone who draws cartoons of some religious figure. Stops flying airplanes into tall buildings, blowing up commuter trains, all in the name of Allah. What kind of a God demands that people die because they don't bow to Mecca? What kind of a God demands that mothers send their children off to blow up buses and people in shops?

My God sent his son into the world to atone for our sins; your God demands you send your son to atone for your sins.

------------------

Posted by John Steele at February 1, 2006 05:10 AM

On free speech:

"you should not exercise what you consider as your freedom of speech on other Innocent people around you regardless of their feelings."

Why? Is there a risk that they will lose their faith in Islam? I'll let you know a little 'secret': the triumph of free-will is to ignore what other people say!

On Iraq:

Our troops are in Iraq to destroy the radical Islamic fascists and help the ordinairy Iraqis rebuild their society.

On pornography:

Whilst many women (and men) may not approve of pornography, very few of them think it is a "weapon to destroy humanity". Many people regard pornography as a vice which should be tolerated because employing the means to eradicate it would only compromise our freedom. On the other hand, many people like it and rightly refuse to apologise for it when it is the product of an exercise of free-will between consenting adults who are responsible for their own lives.

On Islam vs Secularism:

"unfortunately your secularism has no refrence but the non-proven theories that prove its failure every now and then"

Oh yes it does. The most destructive war ever fought on this planet ended only 61 years ago - it was fought in the defence of national self-interest and individual liberty (which in that case were pretty much the same thing).

Besides there is nothing wrong with unproven theories - when they are not meant to be proved.

On prophecies:

The modern sciences of the west may be concerned with small-scale 'prohecies' (we call them 'predictions') about the physical world, but are generally not concerned with large-scale prophecies about the social and political world.

Of course we are concerned with predicting the social and political world, precisely because we are interested in the consequences of our actions but we generally recognise our limitations in doing so.

Besides, it is the Koran that is full of rediculous prophecies is it not?

On materialism:

"The poorest, most backward people in the world are from the religion of peace....this could be true in your material way of thinking"

Actually it is true. Not only are people in the West better off materially than people in the Middle East, but we have many more opportunities for challenge and adventure that test the human spirit to its' limits.

Posted by mike at February 1, 2006 05:18 AM

I liked this bit the most :

Here you go guys........ you have a rich material to act upon......... come on..... hit me

My only criticism being it's too easy.

you should not exercise what you consider as your freedom of speech on other Innocent people around you regardless of their feelings.

Sorry, that's the way we do things in our countries. No one's forcing you to read the cartoons, which were published in Denmark for a Danish audience. What makes you think you have the right to interfere in the Danish society? Kinda makes you look like a hypocrite when you demand the interfering Americans get out of Iraq.

I just wonder if any rationalist, educated, western woman is aware of this fact that in their societies they are being used as a way to have fun or maybe as a weapon to destroy humanity.

Of course they're aware. And I'd wager that most rationalist, educated, Western women (some of whom are commenting here) would defend to the point of death the right of women to act in such productions - because it means maintaining their freedom to choose. it's their choice. Okay, the job of a pornography actor is not for most. But if one chooses to do it - male or female, and I believe that most are paid well for the position - why is it exploitation? Well, that's a brief introduction to a concept called liberty for you. However, it's obvious you really don't understand the it in the slightest. Liberty is not freeing others from all the things you think are morally wrong, sam-j. That's called tyranny, and the Muslim faith seems to actively encourage this.

and you just met him on-line about an hour ago

It's because you are judging a civilization and a value system that you obviously know nothing about.

it's just because some decision makers in the Islamis world are following the fake western claims about democracy and human rights, against the will of their people.

I don't really believe the "against the will of their people" - I think most muslims would rather not live under a bunch of mad mullahs, but that's not my major point. Have you ever stopped to wonder why the Muslim countries that have enduringly embraced (elements of) Western values/technology and created the strongest ties with the West are the richest Islamic countries, and the those that remain the most fundamentally Muslim and anti-West are the poorest and most poverty stricken? A thought for you.

that no one knows whats better for human race than the one who created it at the first place......... think about it.

And once again we see Perry's steel trap observation confirmed. You seem to view us as wayward Muslims who just need to reprioritise our current-day lives with our inherent belief in Allah, the creator. You do realise that we don't believe that Allah was the almighty creator, right? Some of us believe in the Christian God, some of us emphatically don't, some of us aren't willing to place bets either way, but live their lives without fear of him. So urging me to "think about it" does nothing to confirm your point of view in my eyes - or others. Judging by your writings, I'm confident I understand you; you're an ideologue. You, however, have absolutely no understanding of my position or what makes me tick. You seem to think I'm a corrupted version of you and with a little prodding and invoking the name of Allah, I'll come around to your way of thinking. Sam-j, believe this: I'll never come around to your way of thinking because I simply don't believe or accept any of the things you do that make you a Muslim, and especially the fundamental things. I abhor many of the teachings of Islam, and would rather die than submit to them. I look at a great number of Islamic societies in open horror and consider them some of the worst manifestations of the human condition history has seen. I will resist Muslim influence creeping into the society I live in if it starts to interfere with my life and my freedoms. And the more I "think about it", the less Muslim I become.

Posted by James Waterton at February 1, 2006 05:26 AM

Sadly they've become rather good at it.

Actually they haven't. Their bombing attempts are generally clumsy, ill-planned and extremely badly executed. They don't have any concept of explosive mass to blast ratios (7/7 bombings) or indeed of bomb detonation timing mechanisms. Essentially these terrorists have about the same knowledge of explosive devices as monkeys do, believing (as in the 21/7 bombings in London) that if the bomb goes off then it is the Will of God, rather than down to science - although, of course, I doubt that a monkey believes in Islam.

Please, let's not give these people any more credit than they are due.

Posted by Julian Taylor at February 1, 2006 09:37 AM

Sam-J asks have we ever wondered why a quarter of the world's population is Islam - and yes, I imagine most of us have.

Given the nature of most countries under the sway of Islam, it's fairly easy to discern levels of ignorance through poverty, fear, hysteria and terror. It's easy then to assume that those are factors in the high conversion rate. It's hard for us in the west - with all our admitted faults - to see for example how the Taliban stopping women being doctors actually helped anyone in Afghanistan, or how exploding bombs on public transport systems (and killing people of all faiths) moves the Islamic ideal forward.

Unless the ideal is to kill and deny liberty.

As for Iraq... yes, indeed, we wonder why on many levels. Mostly we wonder why the Muslim world likes dictators who murder whole chunks of their own population - who inevitably are also Muslim - on some tribal basis. The unquestioning defence of these barbarians puzzles us.

Islam should allow itself to consider why most people who die in Iraq are Muslims killed by other Muslims - not accidentally, but deliberately. If the US and UK and the rest withdrew troops, would the killing stop at once? No, I didn't think so either.

In case Sam-J wonders, I do like some of the Islamic religion, but then I also like chunks of other religions and I would be sorry to see them disappear in a violent quest for a one-world religion that, in many cases, harbours intolerance towards women and gays and people who simply don't want to be part of it.

But as much as I admire the Rumi and the Sufis and am intrigued by the architectural legacy of the Islamic faith I would be angry to be denied the chance to know about Taoism and Buddhism and meet with Quakers. Maybe even become part of the Wiccan religion if I so chose.

Or have no religion at all and do the best I can for the society I am part of.

It may stagger Muslims but we do think freedom of choice is best, and despite the entrenched views of their religion, we would strive to keep this ideal. Please don't think we are the same as our spineless leaders.

Sam-J: Go ahead and practice your faith among us, build your mosques with your fellow-believers and read your holy book for comfort. But please keep it to yourselves. We are not ripe for conversion and fear may not be enough to persuade us.

Even seeking to stop the publication of a series of moderately amusing cartoons in a newspaper suggests that there is only fear and repression available in Islam, which I am sure is not the case. But we do need to see evidence of tolerance on the part of the Islamic world. Demanding we do nothing that "offends" you is in its own way offensive to our deep-seated principles of freedom of speech and action. (Yes I know we have a current government bent on removing those, but this will pass if we are alert.)

We live in an extraordinary world of many people and many skills and beliefs. Some of us here believe in liberty and choose accordingly.

Islam wants respect. So do those of us who do not want to be part of it. Please accord us that freedom so we can live side by side.

Posted by steve at February 1, 2006 10:45 AM

.....Prophet Mohammed is the greatest man you will ever hear of, he brought peace and justice to this modern world......

Uh, Wasn't the Prophet a warrior????

Posted by EU Serf at February 1, 2006 11:46 AM

Its sad to see their fellow Vikings in Norway cow-tow to pressure for the Islamic hordes.

What is so wrong about this statement? There are plenty of countries in the EU who are scared stiff about winding up their Islamic citizens lest they start blowing up public transport (as in the UK) or killing people who offend them (like Theo Van Goth etc). There are serious death threats against politicians who criticise Islam all over Europe. Polls in the UK after 7/7 showed the extent the bombers had amounst Muslims...no politician is going to ignore that.

Posted by Andrew Ian Dodge at February 1, 2006 11:50 AM

Hi.... its me again

the only reason i am getting back to this discussion is just to express my wonder of how you people can also be fundamentalists and extremist that refuse to show tolerance towards those who dont agree on your freedom to hurt them with no basis as some of you on this blog confessed.

otherwise, I have started to believe that is a discussion of deaf, a discussion between different species as the writer of the article put it.

well.... as we are here today in this lovely Freedom contest, I would like to give you guys something worth to think about

Most of you who stand here today to defend your freedom of speech which allow you Insult other Innocent peolpe and to cause them a sever harm by Insulting thier beloved ones with no basis. most of you think that its OK to do so, and its others ( Insulted ) people problem to deal with it and to accept this shamless fact......... well, this is only applied in your modern, civilized, sophesticated systems.

As we agreed that this is a discussion between to different species, so your irresponsible freedom system does not have to be applied on other species living on this earth, you dont have the right to tell other people how they should tolerate your systems, you shouldnt apply your standards on others (for a change).

So, what if some other extremist species came to you with a new terminology called the Freedom-of-Reaction........ new one haaa...... and it happend by chance that they believe according to their culture that its OK by them to hurt those who Insult them by any way they believe appropriate.

If we agreed that you the extremist of freedom and the extremist Muslims are two different species and and there are NO any Human constitutions or public organization are allowed to limit each other freedom. and to organize the treatments between the different species.......( I like this species thing )

So in this case you dont have the Right to deny others freedom of reaction by what they believe it's Ok to be done for those who Insulted them........... It's ultimate Freedom... isnt it?

although I dont believe of any harmful reaction towards others in such cases.

I think you got something to think about......just for a change !!!

Just have one more thing to comment on:

On Iraq:

Our troops are in Iraq to destroy the radical Islamic fascists and help the ordinairy Iraqis rebuild their society.

by the way, if as some of you might think that Hitler is not Christian, he just happend to be born in a society of a Christian majority, which I also believe so, So how can you consider Saddam as an Islamic leader just because he role a multi-ethnic country with a majority of muslims......... stop using your double standards for God sake.

anyway, I realy like this one, but I think you are joking, you cant be serious, can you ?........ you realy remind me with the old cartoons about superman, and batman......... so you people are the new saviors of the world, are you .

anyway if you realy believe in this.......its good....... at least I know that you in the west have finally found something worth to die for..... so you are now more able to understand that SOME of suicide bombers might have something worth to die for according to thier culture of course. NOT your culutre that believe in DIALOUGE to solve its problems...... such as the Iraqi case for instance....... Ironic, Isnt it ?

well, lets suppose that you really buy this crap, would this quote from one of the blogers be a rational answer to you

What makes you think you have the right to interfere in the Danish society?

well....it seems that you are not satisfied yet....... I know

Ok let me say this to you: havent you learnt at your secular, civilized schools that in your materialistic system