We are developing the social individualist meta-context for the future. From the very serious to the extremely frivolous... lets see what is on the mind of the Samizdata people.

Samizdata, derived from Samizdat /n. - a system of clandestine publication of banned literature in the USSR [Russ.,= self-publishing house]

Samizdata tweet of the day

67 comments to Samizdata tweet of the day

  • JohnW

    Perfection!

  • veryretired

    It is a serious error to judge an entire generation by the exemplars the captive media uses to advance the preferred narrative. They will never interview or highlight the members of my youngest son’s squadron at the Air Force base at which he is stationed, for example, unless there was a negative cast to the ensuing story.

    It is, as well, an error to judge a society by those dilletantes that are showcased by a media which has shown itself to be in the service of a specific ideology actively hostile to the foundations and character of that culture.

    Once again, the nation of “mongrels and shopkeepers” is being underestimated by those who invite the sleeping giant to again awaken, and will regret that error to their dying day.

  • Rob Fisher (Surrey)

    Point taken, Veryretired. I took this to be in praise of specific people and criticising specific people.

  • I agree with very retired’s point – but the tweet is still a good one, and could benefit many university students – both cry bullies and those intimidated into silence by them (so allowing them to stand for ‘students’ in the public mind). If this tweet were to appear in posters on campus, it might achieve yet more than chalking ‘Trump’.

    (Maybe Ted Cruz campaign could do worse than tell any supporting students to use it and stuff like it, as an alternative to chalk. I write this on the assumption that ISIS are already trying to kill her and others in her platoon, so publicity cannot put her or them at significantly increased risk.)

  • Paul Marks

    The point of education is to improve the young – in reality modern Western “education” degrades and twists the young.

    This is not to take the position of Rousseau – I certainly do not believe that the savage is naturally good.

    Indeed it is the followers of Rousseau (even those who consider themselves followers of Karl Marx – before Rousseau was first) that have ruined education.

    Remember at the end of Rousseau’s novel on education the boy and girl (now a young man and women) ask the tutor to stay and tell them what to do for the rest of their lives.

    That is the point of Progressive “education” – not to give people knowledge and skills they can use in independent life.

    But to try and make sure that people never do have an independent life.

  • Paul Marks

    veryretired – there is a simple test to see what proportion of the young (or the old) have decent moral standards.

    How many of them are voting for the Constitutionalist Ted Cruz?

    Those people who are supporting “Bernie” Sanders and Hillary Clinton (and Donald Trump – very much Donald Trump) are voting for FREE STUFF.

    All these candidates are saying “we will fight your battles for you” (the voters are not familiar with the First Book of Samuel, Chapter Eight) – “we will give you lots of free stuff” – that is the basic message of Reality Television Star Donald Trump just as much as it is the message of Bernie Sanders.

    And it was the message of Barack Obama – and of so many Presidential candidates since Franklin Roosevelt in 1936 (he did not run in this way in 1932).

    Alas! We must see the people as they are – not as we would like them to be.

    Let us be honest – no one who (for example) votes for Donald Trump over Ted Cruz does so because they think Donald Trump is the better conservative.

    They support Donald Trump because Mr Trump promises them lots of nice free stuff – as “Bernie” and Hillary Clinton do.

    People who vote for Reality Television stars for President (Donald Trump – “President Donald Trump”), or for old socialists (who went to Moscow to celebrate their wedding), or for Chicago Saul Alinsky followers (Hillary Clinton) are – degenerates.

    They are the end product of Progressive education and general moral decline.

    And I fear they are the majority.

    Both the enemies of democracy and its fanatical followers are mistaken.

    Elected government is most certainly not automatically bad – on the contrary there must be a way for the people to PEACEFULLY remove a government, and if if can not be done by election, how can it be done?

    But elected government depends on the moral character of the majority.

    If the majority are no good – then so will be the government they support.

    That is why so many 19th century liberals supported massive systems of state education – and they were exactly WRONG.

    People such as John Jay had the best of intentions – but their belief that government schools would improve the moral character of the people were as misguided as their belief that government prisons would “reform” criminals.

    A flogging may not “reform” anyone – but it does punish them, and it is a lot cheaper than prison (which torture people for years – leaving them worse than when they went in), as for the education of the poor……

    John Jay may have had a horror of immigrants going to Catholic Church schools – but I hope we now understand that leaving them to state schools is worse.

  • Stonyground

    Can somebody let me know what this thread is about. I can’t follow the link in the OP because I’m at work and twitter is blocked here.

  • Paul Marks

    I think pride is part of it.

    People in Texas were too proud to vote for Donald Trump – people in Florida were not, even against native son Marco Rubio.

    Pride is traditionally held to be one of the “deadly sins” – but that is the false pride (boasting). Being proud of one’s self.

    Being proud of PRINCIPLES is different.

    Not “I am wonderful” – but rather “I stand for this and I will die for it”.

    And not saying the latter in public – but when one is all alone.

    If one can look in the mirror and truthfully say “I am not going to do this – whatever the cost”, that is good pride.

  • Mr Ed

    Stonyground: Picture of a reportedly 19-year old Kurdish woman with a large calibre rifle and scope over her shoulder, grinning. She has spent a year fighting ISIS.

    In the meantime (some) college students in the US ‘need’ counselling and safe spaces because of someone chalking ‘Trump 2016’ on campus.

    Compare and contrast, I suppose.

    BTW Natwest Bank wifi blocks this blog. A badge of honour.

  • Paul Marks

    Well Stonyground – the photograph is of a young Kurdish lady who has been fighting ISIS for a year.

    Meanwhile young Americans (older and bigger than her) are terrified of the words “Trump 2016” in chalk – and have to run away to a university “safe space” to see kittens (as they are so scared).

    Although, as I have pointed out above, Mr Trump actually has a lot in common with the spoiled brats.

    He promises everything to everyone – and (contrary to what he pretends) everything he has was given to him on a plate.

  • Rob Fisher

    Mr Ed: Websense puts this blog in the “Firearms” category, for some reason. I have seen it blocked in various places for that reason.

    Direct evidence of Kurdish female fighters: http://www.vice.com/video/female-fighters-of-kurdistan-part-1

    I think the bit about college students needing counselling because of chalk might be an exaggeration. But there are undoubtedly spoiled, whinging, lefty college students.

    I posted it because a) pretty girl with a gun; b) armed women is my idea of feminism; c) I am interested in what the Kurds are doing; d) I think relativism is a common way to fail at thinking. It’s important to be aware of just how good you have it.

  • CaptDMO

    Paul Marks:
    “They support Donald Trump because Mr Trump promises them lots of nice free stuff…”
    One example contrary to your thesis-therefore your ENTIRE..um…”thesis” is WRONG! or something…
    DAMN that White privilege, micro-aggressive, fat/slut/victim shaming, mansplaiation!

  • Alisa

    Paul, what you are saying in your reply to VR is that people who do not vote in primaries and other elections, do not exist, or at least do not count. I’m sure that’s not what you mean, but that’s what you are essentially saying. ‘Simplistic’ doesn’t begin to describe it.

  • CaptDMO

    *poop, forgot*
    “People such as John Jay had the best of intentions…”
    Personally, I blame it ALL on Horace Mann, and his “enlightened elite” Sophomores.

  • Mr Ed

    Rob F,

    I see now why it might be blocked, these things are always fuzzy logic I suppose. Personally, I have no interest in firearms (other than in them not being used for evil, but the same goes for any chattel), and I assume that the pistol picture is there to annoy Lefties.

  • Alisa

    Sorry, I should have added ‘answering polls’ to ‘voting’, but you get the idea. VR lives there, you and I do not. All you and I know is reports in the media – so you and I, and everyone else on this side of the Pond would do well to listen to people who actually do live there.

  • JohnK

    She’s a very pretty girl, and the SVD is a decent sniper rifle in the traditional Soviet mould: strong and good enough for the job, without any bells and whistles. I sincerely hope she has slotted a good number of Isis fiends with it, for they believe they will not go to the Las Vegas style porn set which is the islamic heaven if they get zapped by a girl.

    Paul:

    I feel you are wrong about Trump voters. He is not running on a “free stuff” programme, but on keeping out mass immigration from Latin America and the muslim world. He is also against the sort of free trade agreements such as Nafta which have seen many American factories closed down and relocated to Latin America. He is really appealing to blue collar America, but not by offering them free stuff.

  • Andrew Duffin

    @rob: Please feel free to post as many pictures of pretty girls with guns as you see fit. And this one is certainly fit.

  • AndrewWS

    Yes. I’ve not previously thought of myself as heterosexual, but girls with guns are hot.

  • Paul, although, like you, I prefer Cruz, I think many Trump supporters are (understandably) worried for themselves and their country, therefore eager to believe. I think the explicit promise of the ‘wall’ (immigration-control), and the implicit promise that loud-mouthed expressions of un-PCness will continue to manage to get coverage despite the you-can’t-say-that gatekeepers, was what attracted many, rather than any idea of free stuff. Some of the anger that a Cruz supporter can feel against Trumpists is because they risk losing in November. A similar feeling can motivate Trumpists, against Cruzists if they’ve convinced themselves Trump has the best chance.

    Recently, Trump appears to have noticed, at least a bit, that if he appoints a liberal to the supreme court, that liberal will discover an amendment whose correct interpretation is “If Trump becomes president, he must be neutered immediately”. So November would still make a difference. (But both to win and for sense afterwards, I still prefer Ted.)

  • Mr Ed

    America appears to be heading towards a successor to the current President with:

    1. the integrity of Mrs Clinton.
    2. the generosity of spirit of Mr Trump.
    3. the gravitas of Mr Rubio.
    4. the realism of Mr Sanders.
    5. the charisma of Mr Jeb Bush.
    6. the modesty of Mr Obama.

    so why am I thinking of Speaker Ryan?

  • llamas

    JohnK wrote, of Trump:

    ‘He is really appealing to blue collar America, but not by offering them free stuff.”

    I beg to differ. Trump is all about offering “free stuff” – he just dresses it a different way.

    – an impenetrable wall on the Southern border – at no cost to you, in money or otherwise.

    – a ‘shutdown’ of Muslim immigration, again at no cost, in money or civil liberties.

    – vast military activity against ISIS and other ill-defined ‘bad guys’, with an iron-clad promise of ‘victory’.

    – the end of free-trade agreements, returning ‘good paying jobs’ to American workers, all at no cost to you. This one is really insidious, since those high wages have to come from somewhere – namely, the pockets of other Americans.

    – No change to Social Security, in fact, I believe he is promising increases in benefits. SS is the ultimate in ‘free stuff’, it’s already completely broke, and getting broker every day, but he’s gonna keep giving it to you, and more besides!

    – Corn-based ethanol subsidies, a giant boondoggle of ‘free’ money taken from the pockets of hardworking Americans to line the coffers of a few thousand Iowa corn farmers – and Archer Daniels Midland.

    And so on.

    See, when you offer people things – actions or benefits – and you don’t say how they will be paid for, or you offer them things that basic arithmetic tells you cannot possibly be paid for without massive revenue increases – what you’re offering them is ‘free stuff’.

    llater,

    llamas

  • JohnK

    Llamas:

    I don’t disagree with you about Trump’s policies, but “free stuff” is usually seen along the lines of Obamaphones and other such shit. However, I do feel that a desire to protect the borders and keep out the undesirable and homicidal is what is driving his campaign.

    The ethanol boondoggle, I agree, is a disgusting scam on the American people.

  • Cristina

    “Elected government is most certainly not automatically bad”

    Oh yes, it is! As bad as those who elected it, if you are lucky.

    “[…] there must be a way for the people to PEACEFULLY remove a government […]”

    And we can see the wondrous results of the process everywhere.

    “If the majority are no good […]”

    Mankind being what it is…

  • lucklucky

    The tweet is wrong.

    Because those that seek safe spaces are not delicate flowers but revolutionary guards, they use safe spaces as tactic because it works in their environment to silence others.

    It is just an adaptation or evolution inside political correct enviroment. Also a Marxist tactic.

  • Laird

    Mencken! Thou shouldst be living at this hour:
    America hath need of thee;

    “The larger the mob, the harder the test. In small areas, before small electorates, a first-rate man occasionally fights his way through, carrying even the mob with him by force of his personality. But when the field is nationwide, and the fight must be waged chiefly at second and third hand, and the force of personality cannot so readily make itself felt, then all the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre – the man who can most easily adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum. The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart’s desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

  • bobby b

    Paul: You said “They support Donald Trump because Mr Trump promises them lots of nice free stuff . . . ”

    Some do, certainly. But I know a lot of Trump supporters, and they are most rationally characterized as wanting him to end the free stuff for others.

    They want the gift of free citizenship to whoever wants to come here to end. They want to stop sending in their money to pay for causes they despise. They want the culture maggots to leave them alone. They want us to stop apologizing for having reached down and pulled up a significant portion of the world to a higher, better place. They want recognition that “good” and “evil” exist in the world, and that not every culture should be praised, or even tolerated. They think Trump can bring these things to them.

    I’m not a Trump guy – far from it – because I understand that Trump could never – hell, WOULD never – deliver on such promises. But I will vote for – and work for – someone who could, because these are worthy principles.

  • Rob Fisher, April 13, 2016 at 9:26 am: “I think the bit about college students needing counselling because of chalk might be an exaggeration. But there are undoubtedly spoiled, whinging, lefty college students.”

    In the tweet, “needing’ is indeed not an exaggeration but irony. The literal truth is that these students are indeed ‘wanting’, ‘expecting’, ‘demanding’ and ‘whining for’ counselling and safe spaces because of having seen “Trump2016” in chalk – no exaggeration in that statement. It is also true that while some of them may be cold calculating revolutionary guards, most of them combine some part of that with being very effete – an effeteness that is learned, practiced, become habitual, not to be lost soon. So I rate the tweet’s text as spot-on.

  • I sneeze in threes

    What about #TheChalkingDread? I’m not on twitter so can’t join in the fun directly.

  • Veryretired

    I appreciate the various responses to my comment. I was trying to point out that the media loves to play up anyone from the left as a legitimate protester against some bad thing, while burying the fact that very few members of the college crowd, or that generation in general, are in agreement.

    Lucky lucky also has a very valid point above.

    Trump has tapped into a very deep well of anger that also powered the tea party movement to some extent. The elites and their lapdog media did all they could to characterize that protest in a negative light, and used many slanderous and illegal tactics to attempt to minimize it.

    But the true depth and broad source of the dissatisfaction with the current crop of incompetent and corrupt elites was never understood by the “insiders”, and they initially treated Trump as a celebrity who posed no serious threat, but was a way to overshadow any of the serious candidates.

    It finally started to register that something new was happening when the tried and true tactics that had always worked to damage and derail candidates before didn’t seem to bother Trump or his followers at all, and, indeed, caused increased support.

    In a certain sense, some of that same dissatisfaction is driving the Sanders campaign on the left. Many of his youthful supporters have little previous political experience, have been programmed by the left’s ideological capture of the educational system, and are thoroughly disgusted by hildabeast.

    I have my doubts that either Trump or Clinton will be the major party candidates, but the coming electoral cycle, regardless of the candidates, will be as dirty and violent as any in our history, and there will be open, and bloody, mob warfare in the streets as a common occurrence

    By our own foolishness and neglect, we have sown the ideological wind of progressive authoritarianism throughout our culture, and we are now beginning to feel the strength of the whirlwind as it approaches.

  • APL

    “I beg to differ. Trump is all about offering “free stuff” – he just dresses it a different way.
    – an impenetrable wall on the Southern border – at no cost to you, in money or otherwise.”

    Mexico will pay, by diverting the grants and subsidies Mexico currently receives from the US.

    Trump,proposes to exercise the constitutional obligation of the PotUS, to defend and enforce the law. Foreigners should be permitted to naturalize but through the approved procedures.

    “– a ‘shutdown’ of Muslim immigration, again at no cost, in money or civil liberties.”

    How the fuckety fuck can you possibly cast that as a cost in civil liberties to blue collar America? Muslims out side the USA have no civil liberties under the constitution. They are not subject to the constitution of the USA while outside the jurisdiction of the US. Now if you wish to protect the US blue collar worker from a fractious and aggressive fifth column. Trump is spot on, keep fundamentalist Muslims out, he might make a exception for members of the Ahmadiyya sect.

    “– vast military activity against ISIS and other ill-defined ‘bad guys’, with an iron-clad promise of ‘victory’.”

    And as demonstrated by Putin, who actually ‘went to town’ on ISIS and its Turkish sponsor, the vast US military activity didn’t much include killing ISIS. Don’t know what else they were doing, other than standing by while ISIS and other assorted Muslim nut jobs eradicated the Yazidi people.

    “– the end of free-trade agreements, returning ‘good paying jobs’ to American workers, all at no cost to you. This one is really insidious, since those high wages have to come from somewhere – namely, the pockets of other Americans.”

    Robotic production lines, Mechanization, automation and increased efficiency. And in any case,what’s wrong with paying a reasonable amount for a CD player, by what right do American consumers get to benefit from pressed Chinese labor?

  • mickc

    Great rifle the Dragunov….some years ago. IS probably have better stuff supplied by the good ol’ USA…..

  • Shlomo Maistre

    What APL said

  • Shlomo Maistre

    And, of course, what Cristina said. Also very much on target as per usual.

  • Laird

    What APL said except for that last bit. Protectionism is the oldest and most thoroughly discredited idea in the history of bad economic ideas, but it still won’t die. The roots of economic ignorance run deep indeed.

  • Shlomo Maistre

    Laird – protectionism is a discredited idea towards achieving what end? If you only want to maximize global wealth over the long run then yes protectionism is certainly a discredited strategy. Should that be the sole or even primary objective of national economic policy? Perhaps there’s some social good that comes with protecting domestic jobs that outweighs the loss of mere wealth? This is especially true as technology continues to render more and more jobs obsolete. Not everyone has the brains to be a rocket scientist.

    There are other reasons to favor protectionism of course (national security and even simply national interest).

  • Laird

    Leaving aside the utter immorality of denying people the right to freely enter into economic transactions as they deem best for themselves, free trade promotes the greatest economic well-being for the greatest number. Conversely, protectionism impoverishes all for the benefit of a relative few. If you really want to help those few there are far less economically destructive ways of doing so. So yes, if we are going to have a “national economic policy” (that’s a different discussion entirely) then maximizing overall prosperity should be its primary objective.

  • Shlomo Maistre

    So yes, if we are going to have a “national economic policy” (that’s a different discussion entirely) then maximizing overall prosperity should be its primary objective.

    I don’t disagree that maximizing a nation’s overall prosperity should be the primary objective of national economic policy. Indeed, Ricardo was right about comparative advantage. I just happen to think that the world is complex and free trade is not necessarily the correct answer to every single question of trade policy.

    Protecting infant industries, safeguarding trade secrets, defending national security, promoting the national interest, shielding low-skill jobs from competition, preserving manufacturing base are just some worthwhile reasons to engage in protectionism.

    There’s a reason Adam Smith praised the Navigation Acts.

  • Perhaps there’s some social good that comes with protecting domestic jobs that outweighs the loss of mere wealth?

    “Mere” wealth? No. Indeed yours is the sort of thinking that serves the interests of entrenched players at the expense of everyone else. Protectionism is just another way of saying “people must pay more for products so a sectional interest will support the government”.

    I lived through the 1970’s when remarks like yours above was political orthodoxy. I would rather not live through a second iteration of the 1970’s.

  • Adam Smith recognised the principle of comparative advantage. He stressed that free trade was in the interest of the practising nation, whether or not its trading partners also practised it or not, and spoke of the “ridiculousness” of opposing the basic argument.

    He was generally critical of many of the advantages alleged for navigation-act-related trade. Offhand, I cannot recall anywhere he specifically praises the navigation acts of his day, but if Shlomo can indicate where in ‘The Wealth of Nations” this is, I’ll gladly reread that bit.

    Although he granted the possible relevance of (only) some of the protectionist arguments Shlomo mentions, he also warned against “interested sophistry” from those who would use these arguments far beyond their very limited and occasional instances of applicability.

  • Mr Ed

    I would rather not live through a second iteration of the 1970’s.

    And that’s not even contemplating the fashion, but Boston managed to compensate for their fashion with a sternflammende tune.

  • Alisa

    The 70s music was the best ever, but that’s about the only good thing that can be said about that era.

  • Laird

    Alisa, I suspect that most people think “the best [music] ever” was what was popular when they came of age. Personally, I found the music of the 70’s to be derivative and largely uninteresting (sorry, Mr Ed, that also includes Boston). The 60’s had far more originality (as well as technical proficiency). But of course that’s because I’m older than you.

  • Some Bertram Blunt recently spray-painted my wall in lime green with a CND sign and the slogan, “Be Happy”. It didn’t make me happy. Have you ever tried removing spray paint from sandstone? If I ever lay hands on the fucker then it shall not be over quickly and he or she will not enjoy it.

  • Alisa

    Laird, I’ll concede in deference to your advanced age 😛

  • Cristina

    “I suspect that most people think “the best [music] ever” was what was popular when they came of age”
    Oh dear! Then I’m more than four hundred years old. 🙂

  • Alisa

    Me too, but I would never admit to that in public!

  • lucklucky

    @Niall Kilmartin
    April 14, 2016 at 11:52 am

    “It is also true that while some of them may be cold calculating revolutionary guards, most of them combine some part of that with being very effete – an effeteness that is learned, practiced, become habitual, not to be lost soon. So I rate the tweet’s text as spot-on.”

    Explain how they don’t have any problems with intimidation and even political violence if it suits them. It is all an act.

  • Laird

    Two immortal vampires on one thread! Impressive.

  • Alisa

    At least we are not zombies

  • Mr Ed

    luckylucky,

    You are quite right, they are scum. Here is a YT video apparently from Ohio State University of a University official telling some students occupying a building that if they don’t get out by the deadline they will be arrested and likely expelled.

    The whiny self-justification of the students is instructive, how dare staff feel threatened by them?

  • Cristina

    Laird, that’s rude 🙂

  • Shlomo Maistre

    Though it’s somewhat off-topic, I think this bit of news desperately needs an audience at Samizdata. The fruits of Muslim immigration are beginning to blossom.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2016/04/14/the-citadel-considers-first-ever-uniform-exception-allowing-a-muslim-hijab/

    The Citadel is considering a request from an admitted student that she be allowed to wear a hijab in keeping with her Muslim faith, a move that would be an unprecedented exception to the school’s longstanding uniform requirements.

    If the request for the traditional Muslim hair covering is granted, it apparently would be the first exception made to the Citadel’s uniform, which all cadets at the storied public military college in South Carolina are required to wear at nearly all times. (At beaches, for example, college rules stipulate that, “Cadets will change into appropriate swimwear upon arrival and change back into uniform when departing.”) A spokeswoman said that to her knowledge, in its nearly 175-year history, the school has never granted a religious, or other, accommodation that resulted in a change to the uniform.

    That this request is even being considered by the Citadel is a triumph in Islam’s quest to conquer the West.

  • Cristina

    What would the young woman in the picture think about that information, I wonder? Would she be surprised?

  • gongcult

    Give a girl or woman a gun and she might save herself from the evil that can befall her.Teach women how to use guns properly and ypu might have a force that can save us in the long run ! As far as 70’s music think of the folk-revival, the blues renaissance, progressive-rock, avant garde jazz whether in the AACM or Euro (ECM label) approaches… even some of the nascent World-beat or New Wave stuff was very cool.can’t deny it !

  • Alisa

    ^The Truth

  • Cristina

    “Teach women how to use guns properly and ypu might have a force that can save us in the long run !”

    Even if they wear a hijab?

  • JohnK

    Cristina:

    Teach them how to use guns and you may find they prefer not to wear the hijab. Would you?

  • Cristina

    JohnK, maybe I’m mistaken, but you don’t seem to know much about Muslim women.

  • Alisa

    I too find it curious that Muslim women do not wear a sign on top of their hijab, saying: “Sorry, but I was forced to wear this garbage sack”.

  • Alisa, a Coptic Christian friend from Egypt, now resident in the UK, once gave me and a few friends a very interesting talk on growing up in Egypt in the 70s and 80s. She recalled – in the 80s IIRC – the first day a girl came to class in a chador in her (relatively) westernised and liberal (and upper-crust, I think) school in the (relatively) westernised and liberal region of lower Egypt. It was a bold, revolutionary act back then – or rather, it was what those teenagers imagined as such, similar to antics of millenials in our day. It symbolised rejection of baathist-style arab socialism in favour of the new unhackneyed (actually, very old and hackneyed) islamist idea. Then another girl did, then another – and so it went. Teenagers conformed quickly to the latest fashionable ‘rebellious’ garb, till it would have been genuinely daring not to conform – except for her and the other two Copt girls at the school, who were treated as tolerated exceptions.

    She went back to Egypt for a holiday recently. Her teenage daughter began walking to the beach in a respectable (very, by western standards) outfit with bare arms – something that would have been OK in her day. The daughter was stopped by a women in a chador and lectured on her disrespectful and improper behaviour. She realised from this that Egypt had indeed changed – that the feeling of knowing what was OK that she had from memories of her youth there was no longer true (of course, with the moving goalposts of PC in the west, I could easily have been in the same position if I’d left ithe UK n the 90s and returned today). She realised sadly that her daughters did not feel entirely safe/comfortable in Egypt.

  • Alisa

    Niall, as they say elsewhere, “it’s complicated”. Meaning, it depends on the prevalent culture as dictated by place and time, and the individuals involved (their age and gender, marital status, standing in society, etc.) – just as your comment shows. But if I were to make a gross generalization, as one does in comments threads, I’d say that the chance of a young woman dressed with extreme modesty having been forced to do so is much higher than that of a young woman wearing a very revealing outfit. That was the only point in my previous comment.

    I’ve been to Egypt in, I think, 82, and judging by reports since then, the cultural changes have been immense. BTW, if you have never read it, I highly recommend this book (the first in a trilogy, the rest of which I have not read) – it is very pertinent to this subject, and very instructive, as well as just a fascinating read.

  • gongcult

    I think there might be some Muslim women who dont want the hijab and the repression it symbolizes.They are powerless to stop it and Western feminists don’t give a shit.An armed liberal reformist feminist movement in Saudi Arabia and other countries of that ilk might help women. Don’t think it will ever happen though…

  • Cristina

    It’s my experience with Muslim women that they consider themselves vastly superior to us regarding dress codes, moral mores, and family values. We are trained to think that everybody, given the opportunity, will choose our values. That’s simply not true.
    The Muslim woman at The Citadel considers herself morally superior to her pairs and entitled to the preferential treatment.