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Samizdata quote of the day

Okay, but there are ways of going about that which do not involve asking Russian tanks to cross the border in support and shooting down passenger jets. Last I looked, Scotland wasn’t fighting English soldiers in the streets, parading captured Englishmen through the streets of Aberdeen, and handing out weapons to Glasgow Celtic fans willy-nilly. I’d not have any problem if East Ukraine had attempted peaceful means of seceding from Kiev, but they haven’t: it’s been thuggish violence from the outset.

- Tim Newman, commenting here on Samizdata.

18 comments to Samizdata quote of the day

  • William O. B'Livion

    Yeah, but Scotland is part of a long English tradition of sort-of-ish democractic institutions.

    Russia is not.

  • Paul Marks

    There were elected Mayors and councils in the eastern parts of Ukraine – swept away by the thugs who have been paid by Putin to murder and loot. Putin is not a Marxist – but that has not stopped him supporting people who dance round statues of Lenin and so on (please remember how many MILLIONS OF PEOPLE the Marxists murdered in the Ukraine from 1917 onwards).

    Even I have been shocked by the attitude of the Black Flaggers in the West (both the communal “anarchists” and the “racial nationalists” – supposedly wildly different but, as so often, on the same side) – they are supported the Putin regime.

    A regime that destroyed the infant civil society in Russia (destroying opposition media and crushing anyone who did not support Putin) and is now invading other lands.

    The Black Flaggers (both sorts) will support any enemy of the West.

    What next? An alliance with the Islamists?

    We will be seeing Peter Hitchens joining hands with some American Rothbardians – telling us that………

    By the way – as the “Old Whig” Edmund Burke and Winston Churchill would have both pointed out….

    This hated of “big business” (and “corporations” generally) and hatred of America – is NOTHING to do with conservatism (with support for the traditions of civil society).

    Neither Fascism (the state should own the railways and make-them-run-on-time) or anti capitalist “anarchism” (not anarcho-capitalism) is anything that a libertarian should be involved in.

  • bob sykes

    The Ukrainian mess began when the US/EU/NATO engineered the overthrow of the only democratically elected government the Ukraine has had, and used openly fascist militias to do so. Putin has been reacting opportunistically to that original sin. So if you want to look for monitors, go hunting for Obama, Cameron, Hollande and Rasmussen. I exclude Merkel because she is the only European leader working to avoid a pan-European war, which would of necessity be nuclear.

    And since we’re on the Scotland/Ukraine comparison, the eastern Ukraine became part of Russia in 1667, 40 years before the official unification of Scotland and England, more than 100 years before the American Revolution and more than 200 years before the establishment of the German and Italian states. Historically, culturally, economically and politically, Russia’s claim to the Ukraine is better than most claims of sovereignty. And it should be remembered that Russia has more nuclear weapons than the US, UK and France combined, and a first use policy.

    Let’s worry about ISIS, which is a real existential threat to Europe and North America and let the Russkies and Ukies duke it out in private.

  • bob sykes

    Make that monsters rather than monitors.

  • Jacob

    “Let’s worry about ISIS, which is a real existential threat to Europe and North America and let the Russkies and Ukies duke it out in private.”

    I will second that.
    Especially as the EU and the US are absolutely and totally impotent, and are unable to do anything significant there except moralizing speeches by Obama and Kerry.

  • The Ukrainian mess began when the US/EU/NATO engineered the overthrow of the only democratically elected government the Ukraine has had, and used openly fascist militias to do so.

    Oh please, not this shite again.

  • Mr Ed

    Historically, culturally, economically and politically, Russia’s claim to the Ukraine is better than most claims of sovereignty.

    I wasn’t aware that the Russians were claiming sovereignty to the Ukraine, I thought that they were simply watching on as locals seek to join them. A Russian claim to sovereignty over the Ukraine is right up there with Argentine fantasy/bullshit over the Falklands. Russia is also party to a treaty guaranteeing the Ukraine’s sovereignty and integrity, the Budapest Memoranda. Perhaps Russia should bomb itself as a warning.

  • The Ukrainian mess began when the US/EU/NATO engineered the overthrow of the only democratically elected government the Ukraine has had, and used openly fascist militias to do so.

    Someone needs to stop listing to Radio Moscow, well, assuming they are not paying for your ‘opinion’ that is. I know some Euromaidan people and you really don’t know what you are talking about. Indeed it is Putin seeking to reunite the Russian Volk with the Motherland who is the purveyor of the paleo-fascist blood-and-soil shit, as anyone paying attention can see.

    I do not believe for a moment anyone making the sort of claims Bob Sykesovich makes is doing so in anything resembling ‘good faith’. It is not an opinion, it is a tactic.

    No sale.

  • hennesli

    The nationalist right in Europe admires Putin both because they see in his actions over Ukraine a defiance of the European Union, and because in his anti-gay laws they see a defiance of so called ‘Cultural Marxism’.

  • There’s also the tendency for people who are smart, but not half as smart as they think they are, to adopt a contrarian (but often stupid) view in an effort to demonstrate they are independent thinkers and imply they have a profound understanding of a situation. I know loads of people like this, and damn they piss me off.

  • The Wobbly Guy

    I know some Euromaidan people

    And obviously that is enough to completely refute bob sykes’ claims.

    bob sykes argues that:

    1. The units involved at Maidan were openly fascist militias.
    2. The whole thing was planned by the West.

    Let’s examine his claims.

    Claim 1: An important component of the successful action at Maidan was Svoboda. Whether or not they are fascist, well… they once were, at least. But apparently legitimacy has softened their stripes, and they have become more moderate. One thing is certain though – they are staunch nationalists, and probably traditionalists too.

    Their leader Tyahnybok made some very incendiary remarks in the past, e.g. “They were not afraid and we should not be afraid. They took their automatic guns on their necks and went into the woods, and fought against the Muscovites, Germans, Jews and other scum who wanted to take away our Ukrainian state”. He did have a very amiable meeting with the Israeli ambassador recently though, so claims of antisemitism might be overblown.

    Another party present at Maidan was Right Sector, also said to be fascist or neo-fascist. Salon has some information here.

    So openly fascist militias? What do you think? Of course, these sources could be wrong – all Russian-fed lies.

    Claim 2: Planned by the West? So far the only evidence is Victoria Nuland’s tapped phone call and her presence at Maidan giving out food to the militia fighters.

    Some have cited a speech where Nuland stated that the US had invested $5 billion in the Ukraine to support its democracy, but that money was the total spent since 1991. Whether or not there had been any monies channeled to the militia groups and anti-Russian agitators is sheer speculation.

    I can accept the opinion that fascist groups were present at Maidan, but not that they were funded by the West.

  • And obviously that is enough to completely refute bob sykes’ claims.

    It is enough to know that the notion large masses of people who participated in the overthrow of the Russia backed government were neither fascists nor there due to foreign money. It certainly is enough to know that. Were there fascists there? Certainly. But Svoboda has largely ‘gone respectable’ and even Jewish politicians like Ihor Kolomoyskyi now describes them as ‘centrists’.

  • The Scots (and the English) have plenty of bloody history which is sufficient not to feel superior about their Recent Reasonableness.

  • Johnnydub

    All I have to say at this point is so much for the EU preventing wars…..

  • Regional

    The English Civil War has been one the most bloodiest in history and the English and Scots have had some good donnybrooks, Culloden, makes this unpleasantness look like a tea party.

  • The Wobbly Guy

    Large masses of people are necessary yet not sufficient (eg Tiananmen), n without strong leadership are just a helpless n useless flock of sheep. It took groups like Right Sector n Svoboda to act as the tip of the spear to successfully defeat the pro-Russian government. Credit to where credit is due.

  • Paul Marks

    Out of date Perry – it is not Radio Moscow it is “Russia Today” television (and much more importantly the people it influences – for every one person who watches it, a hundred or a thousand get this propaganda second or third hand), the same anti Western (and anti “big business”) propaganda – but presented as “libertarian” (rather than Marxist), I have been banging on about this for some time.

    “Bob Sykes” even declares the Ukrainian government to be “Fascists” (Putin plays the same game) – actually they are rather boring pro E.U. social democrats (but then the NKVD branded social democrats )”Social Fascists” – just as it made up the legend, still devoutly pushed by Hollywood and the universities today, that both the Italian Fascists and the German National Socialists were tools of “corporate big business”).

    The murderers and looters that Mr Putin is paying in the Ukraine are not dancing round statues of Ludwig Von Mises – they are dancing around statues of Lenin.

    However, this is not reported on “Russia Today” – or on fake “libertarian” websites (such as the one controlled by the person in Kent – who has moved from being an paid agent of the Islamists in the Sudan to being an apologist for Putin), so some people are mislead (deceived).

    What can be done for people such as Bob Sykes? I wish I had an easy answer – but I do not.

    The same people also tend to believe that America is ruled by “corporate big business” – even though (in reality) the insane level of company taxation and regulation is driving business out of the United States.

    So why do they believe these things – that Putin is fighting “fascism” (in reality he is one – he has crushed the infant civil society in Russia, destroying dissent and crushing any business enterprise owned by people who commit the “crime” of not supporting him)and that American is run by “corporate big business”?

    They believe these things because they are told so – again and again and again.

    Not by Marxists – but by people who call themselves “libertarians” or “supporters of a true free market”.

    It is a deception operation on a massive scale.

    And very many libertarians (especially in the United States) have been co opted (or just plain been bought) into it.

    Let me give a practical example of the harm that is being done.

    Governor Brownback in Kansas has cut taxes and got government spending under control – by such things as abolishing the State Arts Commission and taking on the Teachers Union.

    So libertarians are supporting him?

    Not a chance – they are doing everything the can to win Kansas, and other States, for the Democrats, both by running their own candidates – and backing fake “independent Republican” candidates to split the vote (not just in Kansas – in several States).

    A lot of the libertarian movement is starting to resemble a vast “false flag” operation – both internationally (the support for Putin, the support for the Islamists in Israel and the rest of the Middle East – the support for any enemy of the West) and in their domestic activities.

    I have watched this nightmare develop – step by step (for years).

    It is lot more than a few scumbags (such as the person in Kent) – this is a large scale operation, and highly destructive.

  • Nick (Natural Genius) Gray

    Johnnydub, if the EU can negotiate the ‘peace-in-our-time’ deal to hand over the Ukraine, then you will not have a war! Simples, yes? Another pan-european group hug time!

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