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	<title>Comments on: Spreading ideas effectively</title>
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	<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/02/spreading-ideas-effectively/</link>
	<description>A blog for people with a critically rational individualist perspective</description>
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		<title>By: Paul Marks</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/02/spreading-ideas-effectively/#comment-295967</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Marks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2013 10:01:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16778#comment-295967</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Scary stuff Julie.

And I am not sure how much of this can really be countered.

We can get get a computer system that works (what Mr Romney failed to do - and the buck does stop with the man who did nothing but campaign from 2006 onwards), but the rest of this stuff?

Slipping in political messages into, harmless seeming, cultural stuff?

It is just not our way - it is the way of the so called  &quot;noble&quot; lie (of Plato and other collectivist deceivers).

&quot;It will have to become our way Paul&quot;.

Perhaps - but times are changing.

Things are going to get big and obvious - and that is going to happen real soon.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scary stuff Julie.</p>
<p>And I am not sure how much of this can really be countered.</p>
<p>We can get get a computer system that works (what Mr Romney failed to do &#8211; and the buck does stop with the man who did nothing but campaign from 2006 onwards), but the rest of this stuff?</p>
<p>Slipping in political messages into, harmless seeming, cultural stuff?</p>
<p>It is just not our way &#8211; it is the way of the so called  &#8220;noble&#8221; lie (of Plato and other collectivist deceivers).</p>
<p>&#8220;It will have to become our way Paul&#8221;.</p>
<p>Perhaps &#8211; but times are changing.</p>
<p>Things are going to get big and obvious &#8211; and that is going to happen real soon.</p>
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		<title>By: Julie near Chicago</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/02/spreading-ideas-effectively/#comment-295898</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie near Chicago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2013 06:03:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16778#comment-295898</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[An article by Daniel Rego on the Sith&#039;s campaign strategy makes several points applicable to our issue here.  See

&lt;a href=&quot;http://politicalhat.com/2013/02/21/from-technical-ecstasy-to-i-can-haz-socializm-a-stand-alone-complex/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://politicalhat.com/2013/02/21/from-technical-ecstasy-to-i-can-haz-socializm-a-stand-alone-complex/&lt;/a&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An article by Daniel Rego on the Sith&#8217;s campaign strategy makes several points applicable to our issue here.  See</p>
<p><a href="http://politicalhat.com/2013/02/21/from-technical-ecstasy-to-i-can-haz-socializm-a-stand-alone-complex/" rel="nofollow">http://politicalhat.com/2013/02/21/from-technical-ecstasy-to-i-can-haz-socializm-a-stand-alone-complex/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Pat</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/02/spreading-ideas-effectively/#comment-295765</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2013 22:13:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16778#comment-295765</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ &quot;bloke in spain&quot;
I did not mean a credentialed elite, merely that when expounding ideas it is useful to know more about them than either the listeners or those likely to oppose.
Apart from individual discussions- say with people at work, people met socially, etc. I think that fiction is the way to go- people will watch, read, listen to it for fun and then absorb the ideas without strain. Or music- any good songwriters out there, a good tune will get people listening to virtually any message (why should the devil have all the good tunes?)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ &#8220;bloke in spain&#8221;<br />
I did not mean a credentialed elite, merely that when expounding ideas it is useful to know more about them than either the listeners or those likely to oppose.<br />
Apart from individual discussions- say with people at work, people met socially, etc. I think that fiction is the way to go- people will watch, read, listen to it for fun and then absorb the ideas without strain. Or music- any good songwriters out there, a good tune will get people listening to virtually any message (why should the devil have all the good tunes?)</p>
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		<title>By: RRS</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/02/spreading-ideas-effectively/#comment-295650</link>
		<dc:creator>RRS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2013 15:58:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16778#comment-295650</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To return to the original thread, rather than discuss the kind of content to be &quot;spread,&quot; there seemed to be two facets:

is it the &quot;spreading&quot; that is to be effective; or,

is it to conduct the spreading in such a fashion that the ideas will be effective?

To both facets, a prospective answer might lie in the techniques used to establish AOL in its initial days. That is, widescale distribution of a free DVD, in targeted areas initially.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To return to the original thread, rather than discuss the kind of content to be &#8220;spread,&#8221; there seemed to be two facets:</p>
<p>is it the &#8220;spreading&#8221; that is to be effective; or,</p>
<p>is it to conduct the spreading in such a fashion that the ideas will be effective?</p>
<p>To both facets, a prospective answer might lie in the techniques used to establish AOL in its initial days. That is, widescale distribution of a free DVD, in targeted areas initially.</p>
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		<title>By: bloke in spain</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/02/spreading-ideas-effectively/#comment-295641</link>
		<dc:creator>bloke in spain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2013 15:12:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16778#comment-295641</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Laird, I&#039;d tend to regard subversion of any &#039;message&#039; as being very close to my heart.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Laird, I&#8217;d tend to regard subversion of any &#8216;message&#8217; as being very close to my heart.</p>
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		<title>By: Laird</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/02/spreading-ideas-effectively/#comment-295617</link>
		<dc:creator>Laird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2013 14:26:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16778#comment-295617</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, that&#039;s the point, BIS, but if there isn&#039;t an intellectual underpinning to that &quot;point&quot; we risk subversion of the message and, ultimately, the very results we&#039;re now witnessing (rampant statism with no functioning opposing political philosophy). Which is not to say that there aren&#039;t already too many &quot;theoretical libertarians&quot; and not enough practical ones; that&#039;s certainly true. But we still need &lt;i&gt;some&lt;/i&gt; theoreticians.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, that&#8217;s the point, BIS, but if there isn&#8217;t an intellectual underpinning to that &#8220;point&#8221; we risk subversion of the message and, ultimately, the very results we&#8217;re now witnessing (rampant statism with no functioning opposing political philosophy). Which is not to say that there aren&#8217;t already too many &#8220;theoretical libertarians&#8221; and not enough practical ones; that&#8217;s certainly true. But we still need <i>some</i> theoreticians.</p>
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		<title>By: bloke in spain</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/02/spreading-ideas-effectively/#comment-295515</link>
		<dc:creator>bloke in spain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2013 10:04:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16778#comment-295515</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;Pat
February 20, 2013 at 12:35 pm

Rather than communicating detailed arguments to those with the time and inclination to read libertarian books, which boils down to preaching to the converted, we need to communicate very simple arguments for the rationally disinterested. Unless we can counter the endless stream of simplistic arguments propounding the alleged benefits of state intervention everywhere we are whistling in the wind.
Whilst a better educated elite would be of benefit to libertarianism, it will be useless until it translates into popular opinion.&lt;/em&gt;

Well said Pat. Except for:  &lt;em&gt;Whilst a better educated elite would be of benefit to libertarianism&lt;/em&gt;

In what way? The one thing libertarianism should be is pragmatic. The last thing it needs is a bunch of theoretical libertarians sitting round assessing the number of angels can waltz on pinheads. There&#039;s a lot can be learned from socialists, communists, fascists. Big State champions of all denominations. The propagation of simple messages to inspire ordinary folk to rally to the cause. Why adopt their prime failing. The endless navel gazing. The theoretical claptrap that never survives contact with reality..  Why do you need a libertarian intelligentsia? What&#039;s it&#039;s purpose? What&#039;s wrong with just giving people the opportunity to work out their own destinies &amp; let them get on with it? That&#039;s the point, isn&#039;t it?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Pat<br />
February 20, 2013 at 12:35 pm</p>
<p>Rather than communicating detailed arguments to those with the time and inclination to read libertarian books, which boils down to preaching to the converted, we need to communicate very simple arguments for the rationally disinterested. Unless we can counter the endless stream of simplistic arguments propounding the alleged benefits of state intervention everywhere we are whistling in the wind.<br />
Whilst a better educated elite would be of benefit to libertarianism, it will be useless until it translates into popular opinion.</em></p>
<p>Well said Pat. Except for:  <em>Whilst a better educated elite would be of benefit to libertarianism</em></p>
<p>In what way? The one thing libertarianism should be is pragmatic. The last thing it needs is a bunch of theoretical libertarians sitting round assessing the number of angels can waltz on pinheads. There&#8217;s a lot can be learned from socialists, communists, fascists. Big State champions of all denominations. The propagation of simple messages to inspire ordinary folk to rally to the cause. Why adopt their prime failing. The endless navel gazing. The theoretical claptrap that never survives contact with reality..  Why do you need a libertarian intelligentsia? What&#8217;s it&#8217;s purpose? What&#8217;s wrong with just giving people the opportunity to work out their own destinies &amp; let them get on with it? That&#8217;s the point, isn&#8217;t it?</p>
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		<title>By: Nick (nice-guy) Gray</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/02/spreading-ideas-effectively/#comment-295388</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick (nice-guy) Gray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2013 23:31:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16778#comment-295388</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&#039;Firefly&#039; started AFTER a major war. It should have been the lead-up to a war for liberty in the Vegan System. Come to that, it should have stayed in the Solar system, and had people looking for a Hyperdrive out! with the government trying to keep people in! Drama from the word &#039;Go&#039;!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;Firefly&#8217; started AFTER a major war. It should have been the lead-up to a war for liberty in the Vegan System. Come to that, it should have stayed in the Solar system, and had people looking for a Hyperdrive out! with the government trying to keep people in! Drama from the word &#8216;Go&#8217;!</p>
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		<title>By: Laird</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/02/spreading-ideas-effectively/#comment-295379</link>
		<dc:creator>Laird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2013 22:23:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16778#comment-295379</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David C, there is a lot of science fiction which is essentially (if not overtly) libertarian. In fact, there&#039;s an annual award (the Prometheus Award) for the best liberty-oriented SF. Pretty much anything by Heinlein has a libertarian orientation. That could be publicized more.

Many of those works could be made into movies. Even the rather poor screen adaption of Starship Troopers (which morphed into something of a statist apology) still contains its libertarian roots if you look carefully. A better choice would be Heinlein&#039;s &quot;The Moon is a Harsh Mistress&quot;, in which the libertarian message is so strong it would be difficult to completely corrupt. So perhaps what we should be doing is trying to find someone to make more libertarian-themed science fiction movies. The books are already there.

And don&#039;t forget the TV series &quot;Fireflly&quot;. It doesn&#039;t get much more libertarian than that (although, to my knowledge, Joss Whedon isn&#039;t a libertarian).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David C, there is a lot of science fiction which is essentially (if not overtly) libertarian. In fact, there&#8217;s an annual award (the Prometheus Award) for the best liberty-oriented SF. Pretty much anything by Heinlein has a libertarian orientation. That could be publicized more.</p>
<p>Many of those works could be made into movies. Even the rather poor screen adaption of Starship Troopers (which morphed into something of a statist apology) still contains its libertarian roots if you look carefully. A better choice would be Heinlein&#8217;s &#8220;The Moon is a Harsh Mistress&#8221;, in which the libertarian message is so strong it would be difficult to completely corrupt. So perhaps what we should be doing is trying to find someone to make more libertarian-themed science fiction movies. The books are already there.</p>
<p>And don&#8217;t forget the TV series &#8220;Fireflly&#8221;. It doesn&#8217;t get much more libertarian than that (although, to my knowledge, Joss Whedon isn&#8217;t a libertarian).</p>
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		<title>By: David C</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/02/spreading-ideas-effectively/#comment-295365</link>
		<dc:creator>David C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2013 21:13:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16778#comment-295365</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Paul Marks above mentioned film: the left uses all sorts of art forms to spread their ideas. Libertarians not so much. Some would describe Ayn Rand&#039;s fiction as libertarian. In my view it&#039;s pretty poor as art - but immensely popular and famous because there&#039;s not much else. And it&#039;s indeed refreshing to read the anti-socialist diatribes in her novels. What about the &#039;Samizdata&#039; annual prize for a work of fiction promoting classical liberal ideas?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul Marks above mentioned film: the left uses all sorts of art forms to spread their ideas. Libertarians not so much. Some would describe Ayn Rand&#8217;s fiction as libertarian. In my view it&#8217;s pretty poor as art &#8211; but immensely popular and famous because there&#8217;s not much else. And it&#8217;s indeed refreshing to read the anti-socialist diatribes in her novels. What about the &#8216;Samizdata&#8217; annual prize for a work of fiction promoting classical liberal ideas?</p>
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		<title>By: RRS</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/02/spreading-ideas-effectively/#comment-295325</link>
		<dc:creator>RRS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2013 18:32:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16778#comment-295325</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There are 4 vols. of Frank Fetter&#039;s works at OLL (Libertyfund is based in Indianapolis)but none in print.

Athur Latham Perry&#039;s work is not available there. He was pre Hayekian on the &quot;exchange economy.&quot; I&#039;ll check some other sources, mebbe some at Princeton.

Liberty Fund has published the 20 Vol set of the works of Buchanan in print;9 of which are available at OLL.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are 4 vols. of Frank Fetter&#8217;s works at OLL (Libertyfund is based in Indianapolis)but none in print.</p>
<p>Athur Latham Perry&#8217;s work is not available there. He was pre Hayekian on the &#8220;exchange economy.&#8221; I&#8217;ll check some other sources, mebbe some at Princeton.</p>
<p>Liberty Fund has published the 20 Vol set of the works of Buchanan in print;9 of which are available at OLL.</p>
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		<title>By: RRS</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/02/spreading-ideas-effectively/#comment-295323</link>
		<dc:creator>RRS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2013 18:09:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16778#comment-295323</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[OK here we go;

You can read Turgot&#039;s principal work  at the OLL over at libertyfund.org.

It is the 1898 translation rather than the earlier translation by Thomas jefferson.

Simply go to the site, find the &quot;Online Library of Liberty&quot; in the left margin, click on that then find &quot;By Authors&quot; in the left margin, click. On the authors page (begins with &quot;A&quot;)  click on T at the top tabs. Next scroll down to Turgot. You too can join Paul Marks (and his team) and TJ in the appreciation of Turgot - several formats available.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK here we go;</p>
<p>You can read Turgot&#8217;s principal work  at the OLL over at libertyfund.org.</p>
<p>It is the 1898 translation rather than the earlier translation by Thomas jefferson.</p>
<p>Simply go to the site, find the &#8220;Online Library of Liberty&#8221; in the left margin, click on that then find &#8220;By Authors&#8221; in the left margin, click. On the authors page (begins with &#8220;A&#8221;)  click on T at the top tabs. Next scroll down to Turgot. You too can join Paul Marks (and his team) and TJ in the appreciation of Turgot &#8211; several formats available.</p>
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