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	<title>Comments on: Samizdata quote of the day</title>
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	<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/02/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-255/</link>
	<description>A blog for people with a critically rational individualist perspective</description>
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		<title>By: Nick (nice-guy) Gray</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/02/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-255/#comment-298459</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick (nice-guy) Gray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Mar 2013 02:24:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16870#comment-298459</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Paul, does this mean you won&#039;t tell me what you&#039;re drinking?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul, does this mean you won&#8217;t tell me what you&#8217;re drinking?</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Marks</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/02/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-255/#comment-298405</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Marks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Mar 2013 00:03:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16870#comment-298405</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I humbly apologise Nick (nice-guy) Gray.

But then I only looked at the attack for a few seconds before &quot;Counting Cats&quot; went down.

I thought it was your name on the attack - but, clearly, it was not.

So, again, I apologise.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I humbly apologise Nick (nice-guy) Gray.</p>
<p>But then I only looked at the attack for a few seconds before &#8220;Counting Cats&#8221; went down.</p>
<p>I thought it was your name on the attack &#8211; but, clearly, it was not.</p>
<p>So, again, I apologise.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick (nice-guy) Gray</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/02/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-255/#comment-298393</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick (nice-guy) Gray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2013 23:44:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16870#comment-298393</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Paul, in my humble opinion, you must have a drinking problem, because I never said anything about your column before, and I never mentioned a pension to anyone. Even when I called myself Nuke Gray, I never mentioned pensions.
So what are you on, and where can I get some?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul, in my humble opinion, you must have a drinking problem, because I never said anything about your column before, and I never mentioned a pension to anyone. Even when I called myself Nuke Gray, I never mentioned pensions.<br />
So what are you on, and where can I get some?</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Marks</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/02/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-255/#comment-298323</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Marks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2013 21:34:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16870#comment-298323</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nick (nice guy) Gray.

You do not like facts.

You ranted at me when I typed some out on another blog.

You accused me (I think) of wanting to cut your pension.

And compared me to Marxists who want to build Heaven on Earth.

Just to be nasty I think I will repeat the facts that sent you off the deep end.

Government spending is NOT under control. Certainly some British government departments have had their budgets reduced but TOTAL government spending....

Government debt is INCREASING (even as a percentage of GDP).

Indeed one could cut government spending by about a third and it would still be at the level (again even as a percentage of the economy) as it was in fiscal 1963.

I suggested a series of government spending cuts (with the aim of balancing the budget and ending the practice of Bank of England fianced deficit spending).

Yes they were radical (by pathetic modern standards - getting rid of the overseas budget [indeed budgets - Overseas Aid, E.U., U.N., IMF, World Bank....], ending Corporate Welfare [Trade and Industry subsdies] and returning roads, rail, the universities and the arts to civil society) - but they did NOT include cutting pensions, or cutting education for the children in schools (although I do not regard universities as schools for children - different budget)or income support.

In short I was hopelessly weak (bent over backwards) and may well have suggested far too little in terms of cutting government spending.

And all I got from you was abuse (which I have repeated above).

Plus &quot;you never give sources for your statements&quot; (as if you could not have checked anything I typed in a couple of minutes).

That is calling me a liar - and doing it in a cowardly way.

I was quite hurt.

Sensitive soul that I am.

There were almost tears.

Of course the joke is that there is no chance what-so-ever of big government spending cuts happening.

So the present system is doomed.

Oh dear, how sad.

Oddly enough I am quite sincere when I say I would like to save the system - which, I suppose, makes me a traitor to hardcore libertarianism.

But there is no chance that people like me will win - none.

The system will go down. Our suggestions to save it will be rejected.

And then that pension you are hopeing for........

By the way - I did not think you were British based anyway.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick (nice guy) Gray.</p>
<p>You do not like facts.</p>
<p>You ranted at me when I typed some out on another blog.</p>
<p>You accused me (I think) of wanting to cut your pension.</p>
<p>And compared me to Marxists who want to build Heaven on Earth.</p>
<p>Just to be nasty I think I will repeat the facts that sent you off the deep end.</p>
<p>Government spending is NOT under control. Certainly some British government departments have had their budgets reduced but TOTAL government spending&#8230;.</p>
<p>Government debt is INCREASING (even as a percentage of GDP).</p>
<p>Indeed one could cut government spending by about a third and it would still be at the level (again even as a percentage of the economy) as it was in fiscal 1963.</p>
<p>I suggested a series of government spending cuts (with the aim of balancing the budget and ending the practice of Bank of England fianced deficit spending).</p>
<p>Yes they were radical (by pathetic modern standards &#8211; getting rid of the overseas budget [indeed budgets - Overseas Aid, E.U., U.N., IMF, World Bank....], ending Corporate Welfare [Trade and Industry subsdies] and returning roads, rail, the universities and the arts to civil society) &#8211; but they did NOT include cutting pensions, or cutting education for the children in schools (although I do not regard universities as schools for children &#8211; different budget)or income support.</p>
<p>In short I was hopelessly weak (bent over backwards) and may well have suggested far too little in terms of cutting government spending.</p>
<p>And all I got from you was abuse (which I have repeated above).</p>
<p>Plus &#8220;you never give sources for your statements&#8221; (as if you could not have checked anything I typed in a couple of minutes).</p>
<p>That is calling me a liar &#8211; and doing it in a cowardly way.</p>
<p>I was quite hurt.</p>
<p>Sensitive soul that I am.</p>
<p>There were almost tears.</p>
<p>Of course the joke is that there is no chance what-so-ever of big government spending cuts happening.</p>
<p>So the present system is doomed.</p>
<p>Oh dear, how sad.</p>
<p>Oddly enough I am quite sincere when I say I would like to save the system &#8211; which, I suppose, makes me a traitor to hardcore libertarianism.</p>
<p>But there is no chance that people like me will win &#8211; none.</p>
<p>The system will go down. Our suggestions to save it will be rejected.</p>
<p>And then that pension you are hopeing for&#8230;&#8230;..</p>
<p>By the way &#8211; I did not think you were British based anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Marks</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/02/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-255/#comment-298300</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Marks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2013 20:28:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16870#comment-298300</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bloke in Spain it is perfectly possible to be a libertarian (a sincere libertarian - a just person) whilst still being a total shit.

Sorry but a &quot;libertarian person&quot; is just a &quot;person who is a libertarian&quot; - naught more.

One does not even have to prevent someone else violating the nonaggression principle (as a Randian Objectivist would), just as long as one does not commit injustice one&#039;s self (or suggest it, or support it).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bloke in Spain it is perfectly possible to be a libertarian (a sincere libertarian &#8211; a just person) whilst still being a total shit.</p>
<p>Sorry but a &#8220;libertarian person&#8221; is just a &#8220;person who is a libertarian&#8221; &#8211; naught more.</p>
<p>One does not even have to prevent someone else violating the nonaggression principle (as a Randian Objectivist would), just as long as one does not commit injustice one&#8217;s self (or suggest it, or support it).</p>
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		<title>By: Laird</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/02/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-255/#comment-298257</link>
		<dc:creator>Laird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2013 18:55:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16870#comment-298257</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bloke, someone who is depriving you of your freedom of movement or access to your possessions is committing aggression against you. It is not a violation of the NAP to use force to open the door because that is not the &lt;em&gt;initiation&lt;/em&gt; of violence. The NAP is not a pacifist doctrine or a unilateral disarmament commitment; it fully recognizes the right to self-defense and to &lt;em&gt;respond&lt;/em&gt; to others&#039; violence.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bloke, someone who is depriving you of your freedom of movement or access to your possessions is committing aggression against you. It is not a violation of the NAP to use force to open the door because that is not the <em>initiation</em> of violence. The NAP is not a pacifist doctrine or a unilateral disarmament commitment; it fully recognizes the right to self-defense and to <em>respond</em> to others&#8217; violence.</p>
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		<title>By: bloke in spain</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/02/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-255/#comment-298003</link>
		<dc:creator>bloke in spain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2013 09:25:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16870#comment-298003</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanx Paul but I think you just answered the wrong question. I didn&#039;t ask what was required to be a good person, by some definition of good. I asked what was required to be a free person. But as a &lt;em&gt;libertarian&lt;/em&gt; person. One who tempers their own freedom by respecting the desire of others to have their own freedom. Note no mention of rights. One can grant rights. One cannot demand them without curtailing the freedom of others.
I&#039;ll give you an example of my own. You stand before a locked door that denies you your freedom. Maybe it&#039;s a prison door or behind it are your freely obtained possessions. The person holding the key denies you the use of it for no other reason than that they can. Are you a libertarian if you initiate violence to obtain that key? Or is it a violation of the nonaggression principle (the libertarian principle of justice).
Note: I&#039;ve no objection to justice but it really is just pooled violence.
      Just because people have been asking &amp; answering questions for thousands of years doesn&#039;t mean they got them right.
      Morals are great things to have. You can take them out, polish &amp; admire them in the safety of your own home. It&#039;s what works that counts.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanx Paul but I think you just answered the wrong question. I didn&#8217;t ask what was required to be a good person, by some definition of good. I asked what was required to be a free person. But as a <em>libertarian</em> person. One who tempers their own freedom by respecting the desire of others to have their own freedom. Note no mention of rights. One can grant rights. One cannot demand them without curtailing the freedom of others.<br />
I&#8217;ll give you an example of my own. You stand before a locked door that denies you your freedom. Maybe it&#8217;s a prison door or behind it are your freely obtained possessions. The person holding the key denies you the use of it for no other reason than that they can. Are you a libertarian if you initiate violence to obtain that key? Or is it a violation of the nonaggression principle (the libertarian principle of justice).<br />
Note: I&#8217;ve no objection to justice but it really is just pooled violence.<br />
      Just because people have been asking &amp; answering questions for thousands of years doesn&#8217;t mean they got them right.<br />
      Morals are great things to have. You can take them out, polish &amp; admire them in the safety of your own home. It&#8217;s what works that counts.</p>
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		<title>By: R Dawes</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/02/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-255/#comment-297985</link>
		<dc:creator>R Dawes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2013 08:27:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16870#comment-297985</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nick: the phrase you&#039;re looking for is Freedom of Conscience. It subsumes freedom of opinion, belief, AND expressions thereof, in one integrated package while also not opening the door to the prats who think that freedom of religion includes the right to supersede other rights.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick: the phrase you&#8217;re looking for is Freedom of Conscience. It subsumes freedom of opinion, belief, AND expressions thereof, in one integrated package while also not opening the door to the prats who think that freedom of religion includes the right to supersede other rights.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick (nice-guy) Gray</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/02/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-255/#comment-297954</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick (nice-guy) Gray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2013 06:07:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16870#comment-297954</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have often thought that we should support a Freedom of Opinion principle. I feel that opinions should be something no-one should be legally punished for. Some opinions might have more value than others (the opinions of someone who has studied a subject is more likely to prove to be true than that of someone who has just opened one&#039;s mouth), but we should all have a right to them, so long as we admit that they are simply opinions, not facts.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have often thought that we should support a Freedom of Opinion principle. I feel that opinions should be something no-one should be legally punished for. Some opinions might have more value than others (the opinions of someone who has studied a subject is more likely to prove to be true than that of someone who has just opened one&#8217;s mouth), but we should all have a right to them, so long as we admit that they are simply opinions, not facts.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Marks</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/02/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-255/#comment-297844</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Marks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2013 22:16:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16870#comment-297844</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Captain Pedant - you are quite correct.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Captain Pedant &#8211; you are quite correct.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Marks</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/02/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-255/#comment-297843</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Marks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2013 22:09:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16870#comment-297843</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes it is possible to be a nonviolent libertarian.

If someone is attacked in front of you, it is not &quot;unlibertarian&quot; to refuse to help them.

Contrary to what some say, only aggression (against bodies or goods) is a violation of the nonaggression principle (the libertarian principle of justice).

Someone (out of cowardice of pacifist principle) can stand by and watch millions being killed - without commtting any crime (as a libertarian understands &quot;crime&quot; - i.e. a violation of justice).

Just as someone can (because they are miser or whatever) sit counting their (thousands and thousands) of gold coins whilst watching people starving to death - without committing any crime (any injustice).

Such a person lacks the virtue of benevolence (mercy - charity), not the ice cold virtue of justice.

In other words - a just person (a true libertarian) may be utterly vile in many other respects.

Being just (being libertarian) is not enough, if one wants to be a good person.

&quot;Paul not a word of the above is original - you cribbed it all from thinkers, some of whom go back thousands of years&quot;.

Errr - guilty.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes it is possible to be a nonviolent libertarian.</p>
<p>If someone is attacked in front of you, it is not &#8220;unlibertarian&#8221; to refuse to help them.</p>
<p>Contrary to what some say, only aggression (against bodies or goods) is a violation of the nonaggression principle (the libertarian principle of justice).</p>
<p>Someone (out of cowardice of pacifist principle) can stand by and watch millions being killed &#8211; without commtting any crime (as a libertarian understands &#8220;crime&#8221; &#8211; i.e. a violation of justice).</p>
<p>Just as someone can (because they are miser or whatever) sit counting their (thousands and thousands) of gold coins whilst watching people starving to death &#8211; without committing any crime (any injustice).</p>
<p>Such a person lacks the virtue of benevolence (mercy &#8211; charity), not the ice cold virtue of justice.</p>
<p>In other words &#8211; a just person (a true libertarian) may be utterly vile in many other respects.</p>
<p>Being just (being libertarian) is not enough, if one wants to be a good person.</p>
<p>&#8220;Paul not a word of the above is original &#8211; you cribbed it all from thinkers, some of whom go back thousands of years&#8221;.</p>
<p>Errr &#8211; guilty.</p>
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		<title>By: bloke in spain</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/02/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-255/#comment-297840</link>
		<dc:creator>bloke in spain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2013 21:52:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16870#comment-297840</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ Perry
&quot;But I do not wish or advocate violence against everyone I hate.&quot;
Surely, isn&#039;t that what the word detest is for. Or there are a few others that express a strong but passive emotion.
On a wider point, is it possible to be a non violent libertarian? I&#039;d imagine not. There has to be a point where the initiation of violent force is justified to preserve liberty. And a true libertarian can&#039;t expect to pass that responsibility over to another. That&#039;s just being a stateist in fancy dress.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Perry<br />
&#8220;But I do not wish or advocate violence against everyone I hate.&#8221;<br />
Surely, isn&#8217;t that what the word detest is for. Or there are a few others that express a strong but passive emotion.<br />
On a wider point, is it possible to be a non violent libertarian? I&#8217;d imagine not. There has to be a point where the initiation of violent force is justified to preserve liberty. And a true libertarian can&#8217;t expect to pass that responsibility over to another. That&#8217;s just being a stateist in fancy dress.</p>
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