My view is that the Force, God if you will, can be made to reconsider its assumptions.

That is no less than revolutionary – I like that:-)

I have read the link. Nice. My view is that the Force, God if you will, can be made to reconsider its assumptions. “It affects me and I affect it” in the Star Wars formulation. The Will of the Universe is not fixed. However, as a limited being my understanding may be incorrect. But that is how I see it today.

I have enjoyed your presence as well. And thanks for the link. I will give it some study.

And your point about reexamining your presumptions is very scientific. This engineer likes that.

Love is the Law.

A population with such beliefs (the belief in the nonexistance of right and wrong – and/or the belief that they can not make real choices) do not deserve to survive.

It’s a strawman you keep repeating, Paul – contrary to everything that has been said here.

Actually these matters are what matters to me (and has always mattered to me) more than anything else in the world

Yes, and you are not the only one, hence the argument.

I can not convince people with words

It is not about convincing people, which presumes that you know The Truth, and your mission is to spread it to others. It is about constantly reexamining your assumptions about the truth, and being prepared to change them if proven wrong, rather than blindly following them.

Anyway, I’m exhausted. You may find this of interest.

“On the other hand – I can not convince people with words. In this particular thread I clearly lack the skill.

So there is no point in my reading or writing anything more here.

Finis.”

Well it takes time. And repetition. Patience.

I have enjoyed your presence.

Love is the Law.

I like that. Still. I am looking for a formula that might change their minds. I’m not inherently a blood thirsty person. But I will do my duty to the best of my ability. Devil take hindmost. Heh.

I have a more than nodding acquaintance with the gentleman myself. He will leave you alone if he finds you too hard to conquer. But he is always available for conversation. And I do enjoy the conversation.

“with their head in the highest heavens and their feet in the deepest hells”

from: http://www.witchtalkshow.com/post/14927920773/the-crossed-keys-european-spellcraft-with

Which is a bit too romantic for my taste these days. People who believe they can/should do only good are capable of the greatest evil. What ever you do will help some and hurt others. If you developed a perfect cancer cure you would be hurting seriously all those purveyors of imperfect cures. “Creatures of Light and Darkness” (by Zelazny) indeed.

You complained that I replied to traditional arguments that had NOT actually been made in the thread.

You also made the perfectly valid point that this thread was not about me being “happy” but was about something else.

Actually these matters are what matters to me (and has always mattered to me) more than anything else in the world – but that might be misunderstood as an appeal to happiness (something I do not put much store in anyway).

It would have been more accurate to say “anger me a great deal” rather than “I am not happy with”.

But my anger is as nonrelevant as my happiness.

A population with such beliefs (the belief in the nonexistance of right and wrong – and/or the belief that they can not make real choices) do not deserve to survive.

And will not survive.

Perhaps a Hayekian – cultural evolution point.

Although, if one takes Hayek at his word (that morality is to be judged by rules that are useful for the long term growth of society) the correct moral response to his statements (for example his examination, or rather denial, of the human mind in “The Sensory Order”) would have been to kill him (having first destroyed all copies of such writings). As such beliefs, if they spread, can only have an incredibly negative effect on the future survival of society.

I do not believe that would have been the right thing to do.

One can not defend the dignity of the human mind by hanging those humans who deny it, and one can not defend the work of humans by burning books one does not approve of.

Such evil means corrupt the end. Something “Saint” Augustine did not seem to understand.

On the other hand – I can not convince people with words. In this particular thread I clearly lack the skill.

So there is no point in my reading or writing anything more here.

Finis.

Our current rulers have adopted evil. How do we change their minds when as of now they are profiting so handsomely from their choice?

You don’t. It will not be easy – it will be…is, impossible. You force them to leave you alone, by any means necessary.

If you had experienced what I have your opinion would be different. I was fortunate to be alive and in my 20s in the 60s. There was a culture developing then that could have helped the larger culture. Squashed. All that remains is a remnant. And who was in the lead in the squashing? The Church. For very good reasons. From their point of view.

The situation was not loss free I grant you. But the gains far exceeded the losses. And had the movement been embraced the losses could have been reduced.

You might find this of interest: http://www.maps.org/ Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies

Is spot on relative to the morality one should adopt among the sleepers. Our current difficulty is that the ruling elite have adopted the morality of the Nazis if in a less extreme form. Bastards. We are in a better condition relative to some cultures in that our current masters are not above mass murder but it is not their preference.

Alisa – you are not wrong either.

The eternal question for the awake is what morality do you adopt among the sleepers? Our current rulers have adopted evil. How do we change their minds when as of now they are profiting so handsomely from their choice? It will not be easy. How do we strike the fear of “God” into them? How do we convince them that raising up the sleepers is a better choice even if it means some personal losses? I currently have no idea.