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	<title>Comments on: Samizdata quote of the day</title>
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	<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/01/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-244/</link>
	<description>A blog for people with a critically rational individualist perspective</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 20 May 2013 04:10:36 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: bloke in spain</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/01/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-244/#comment-283602</link>
		<dc:creator>bloke in spain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2013 12:58:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16455#comment-283602</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[JV
Does it not occur, the law may have been specifically written like that? It&#039;s not the UK*. A total ban is simply not viable. You only have to read some of the stuff from the pro-gun lobby. Making possession illegal would just mean firearms would be possessed illegally. So they&#039;ve drafted a law favours those considered &#039;fit &amp; proper persons&#039; to deter those individuals from joining the illegal gun owners.

*Down here in Spain I&#039;m looking at the catalog from a company would sell me a 9mm Browning auto or a Ceska CZ858 Tactical. What some would describe as an assault rifle. Both available with possession of a hunting license. But the Spanish aren&#039;t Brits. They seem to regard themselves as &#039;fit &amp; proper&#039; rather than dangerously unstable. Or, at least, those they elect do.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JV<br />
Does it not occur, the law may have been specifically written like that? It&#8217;s not the UK*. A total ban is simply not viable. You only have to read some of the stuff from the pro-gun lobby. Making possession illegal would just mean firearms would be possessed illegally. So they&#8217;ve drafted a law favours those considered &#8216;fit &amp; proper persons&#8217; to deter those individuals from joining the illegal gun owners.</p>
<p>*Down here in Spain I&#8217;m looking at the catalog from a company would sell me a 9mm Browning auto or a Ceska CZ858 Tactical. What some would describe as an assault rifle. Both available with possession of a hunting license. But the Spanish aren&#8217;t Brits. They seem to regard themselves as &#8216;fit &amp; proper&#8217; rather than dangerously unstable. Or, at least, those they elect do.</p>
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		<title>By: Laird</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/01/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-244/#comment-283355</link>
		<dc:creator>Laird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2013 02:33:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16455#comment-283355</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[JV, not being an alien I&#039;m unfamiliar with the rules you cite, so I&#039;ll withdraw my objection to your observation. You could be right that it is an irrational subversion of the law. Or it could be an instance of local officials recognizing that the law is an ass (which it frequently is) and going through the legal motions while effectively (but passively) thwarting them. It would be nice to think that the latter is the case. There actually are a few bureaucrats who are good guys.

Paul, I know people who hunt with pistols (as well as muzzle-loaders, AR15s, longbows and crossbows). I also know a fellow who hunts wild boars with only a large knife. He carries a pistol for snakes. And he is insane, but that&#039;s beside the point.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JV, not being an alien I&#8217;m unfamiliar with the rules you cite, so I&#8217;ll withdraw my objection to your observation. You could be right that it is an irrational subversion of the law. Or it could be an instance of local officials recognizing that the law is an ass (which it frequently is) and going through the legal motions while effectively (but passively) thwarting them. It would be nice to think that the latter is the case. There actually are a few bureaucrats who are good guys.</p>
<p>Paul, I know people who hunt with pistols (as well as muzzle-loaders, AR15s, longbows and crossbows). I also know a fellow who hunts wild boars with only a large knife. He carries a pistol for snakes. And he is insane, but that&#8217;s beside the point.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Marks</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/01/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-244/#comment-283196</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Marks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2013 20:34:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16455#comment-283196</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Richard - as you may well know...

The S&amp;W 50 cal revolver is actually more powerful than an Israeli Desert Eagle (although unlike the semiautomatic Desert Eagle, it only has a five bullets).

One could blow a polar bear&#039;s head off with it. So, yes, it is perfectly possible to hunt with a pistol - although the range is short.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard &#8211; as you may well know&#8230;</p>
<p>The S&amp;W 50 cal revolver is actually more powerful than an Israeli Desert Eagle (although unlike the semiautomatic Desert Eagle, it only has a five bullets).</p>
<p>One could blow a polar bear&#8217;s head off with it. So, yes, it is perfectly possible to hunt with a pistol &#8211; although the range is short.</p>
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		<title>By: Jaded Voluntaryist</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/01/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-244/#comment-283172</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaded Voluntaryist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2013 19:43:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16455#comment-283172</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It varies from state to state, Richard.

Those on work visas without greencards can normally only obtain guns by either

1, Being a diplomat
2, Being an invited foreign law enforcement officer
3, Being in the country for a sporting event.

It is the last category those on work visas frequently use to obtain guns.  If you can show you have an invitation to a shooting competition, or a valid hunting permit, then you are allowed to purchase guns as long as you have been resident in your state for the required time.  Some states also require you to take a hunter safety course (and some states require these anyway before issuing a permit).

I believe some states don&#039;t allow non greencarded immigrants to buy guns at all.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It varies from state to state, Richard.</p>
<p>Those on work visas without greencards can normally only obtain guns by either</p>
<p>1, Being a diplomat<br />
2, Being an invited foreign law enforcement officer<br />
3, Being in the country for a sporting event.</p>
<p>It is the last category those on work visas frequently use to obtain guns.  If you can show you have an invitation to a shooting competition, or a valid hunting permit, then you are allowed to purchase guns as long as you have been resident in your state for the required time.  Some states also require you to take a hunter safety course (and some states require these anyway before issuing a permit).</p>
<p>I believe some states don&#8217;t allow non greencarded immigrants to buy guns at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/01/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-244/#comment-283166</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2013 19:39:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16455#comment-283166</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[FWIW, I do know someone who hunts with a pistol. Though he&#039;s actually an Australian.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FWIW, I do know someone who hunts with a pistol. Though he&#8217;s actually an Australian.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/01/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-244/#comment-283164</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2013 19:35:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16455#comment-283164</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not aware of any requirement to take a hunting course here. Of course, I am a permanent resident which places me in a different category. I was just filling out the form for the background check today though and it did have a section for those who are here on non-immigrant visas. Presumably mostly aimed at those popping down from Canada for a bit of hunting.

Then again, there&#039;s always the so called &quot;gun show loophole&quot; which just means that the background check is not required for private sales. I have seen guns for sale at flea markets and there are websites that pick up the slack where Craigslist falls down.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not aware of any requirement to take a hunting course here. Of course, I am a permanent resident which places me in a different category. I was just filling out the form for the background check today though and it did have a section for those who are here on non-immigrant visas. Presumably mostly aimed at those popping down from Canada for a bit of hunting.</p>
<p>Then again, there&#8217;s always the so called &#8220;gun show loophole&#8221; which just means that the background check is not required for private sales. I have seen guns for sale at flea markets and there are websites that pick up the slack where Craigslist falls down.</p>
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		<title>By: Jaded Voluntaryist</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/01/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-244/#comment-283130</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaded Voluntaryist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2013 18:10:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16455#comment-283130</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;Or are you suggesting the authorities should have the power to compel the person to hunt?&lt;/em&gt;

No.

But what I&#039;m suggesting is that presumably as a result of some wrangling on Capitol Hill they&#039;ve passed a law than on the face of it prevents non-citizens from owning firearms for everything except hunting, and then they turn a blind eye while applications for a hunting permit become a defacto gun-fitness test for non citizens.

It seems rather cumbersome and disingenuous.  It seems bizarre for example that a person who is worried about a crack head kicking down his door has to go on a course that is going to teach him about how to use a tree stand safely, or the ethics of hunting deer humanely.

It just seems that we have a law which is doing one thing, but has been designed to look as though it is doing something else entirely for the sake of political expediency.

Although I wouldn&#039;t complain about it too much personally.  It&#039;s a loophole that&#039;s likely to be closed if too much attention is drawn to it, rather than a more honest and transparent mechanism being put in its place.

And that would leave a great many residents of the US with no legal defence at all.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Or are you suggesting the authorities should have the power to compel the person to hunt?</em></p>
<p>No.</p>
<p>But what I&#8217;m suggesting is that presumably as a result of some wrangling on Capitol Hill they&#8217;ve passed a law than on the face of it prevents non-citizens from owning firearms for everything except hunting, and then they turn a blind eye while applications for a hunting permit become a defacto gun-fitness test for non citizens.</p>
<p>It seems rather cumbersome and disingenuous.  It seems bizarre for example that a person who is worried about a crack head kicking down his door has to go on a course that is going to teach him about how to use a tree stand safely, or the ethics of hunting deer humanely.</p>
<p>It just seems that we have a law which is doing one thing, but has been designed to look as though it is doing something else entirely for the sake of political expediency.</p>
<p>Although I wouldn&#8217;t complain about it too much personally.  It&#8217;s a loophole that&#8217;s likely to be closed if too much attention is drawn to it, rather than a more honest and transparent mechanism being put in its place.</p>
<p>And that would leave a great many residents of the US with no legal defence at all.</p>
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		<title>By: bloke in spain</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/01/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-244/#comment-283128</link>
		<dc:creator>bloke in spain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2013 18:03:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16455#comment-283128</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[JV
Go back through your argument. The authorities have established the individual is a fit &amp; proper person to possess a firearm. That is what the law requires. The law does not require the licensed person to either own a firearm or hunt. But whether he owns or not, hunts or not, he&#039;s exactly the same person as if he did. A person adjudged to be fit &amp; proper to possess a firearm to so if he wishes.
Or are you suggesting the authorities should have the power to compel the person to hunt? By extension, possessing a driving license would oblige one to drive.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JV<br />
Go back through your argument. The authorities have established the individual is a fit &amp; proper person to possess a firearm. That is what the law requires. The law does not require the licensed person to either own a firearm or hunt. But whether he owns or not, hunts or not, he&#8217;s exactly the same person as if he did. A person adjudged to be fit &amp; proper to possess a firearm to so if he wishes.<br />
Or are you suggesting the authorities should have the power to compel the person to hunt? By extension, possessing a driving license would oblige one to drive.</p>
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		<title>By: Jaded Voluntaryist</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/01/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-244/#comment-282980</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaded Voluntaryist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2013 12:47:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16455#comment-282980</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Laird I think you&#039;ve rather missed the point I was making.

Several states will allow legal resident non citizens to purchase firearms if they can produce a valid hunting permit (and sometimes a hunter safety certificate).

Insofar as I can tell they are quite happy if these people then immediately go out and buy a shotgun/AR15/whatever for home defence and then never go hunting with it.  Evidently the law as it stands is designed to prevent non citizens purchasing arms for any purpose other than &quot;sporting&quot;, and yet the authorities seem quite happy to allow people to tick some boxes to sidestep this.

Now I&#039;m not saying legal aliens should not be allowed guns for home defence.  Indeed, if I do come across I fully intend to take advantage of this particular loophole in the law.

What I find odd is taking legal steps to achieve a particular end, then expressing total indifference to its subversion.  Why bother with the pretence in the first place?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Laird I think you&#8217;ve rather missed the point I was making.</p>
<p>Several states will allow legal resident non citizens to purchase firearms if they can produce a valid hunting permit (and sometimes a hunter safety certificate).</p>
<p>Insofar as I can tell they are quite happy if these people then immediately go out and buy a shotgun/AR15/whatever for home defence and then never go hunting with it.  Evidently the law as it stands is designed to prevent non citizens purchasing arms for any purpose other than &#8220;sporting&#8221;, and yet the authorities seem quite happy to allow people to tick some boxes to sidestep this.</p>
<p>Now I&#8217;m not saying legal aliens should not be allowed guns for home defence.  Indeed, if I do come across I fully intend to take advantage of this particular loophole in the law.</p>
<p>What I find odd is taking legal steps to achieve a particular end, then expressing total indifference to its subversion.  Why bother with the pretence in the first place?</p>
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		<title>By: Laird</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/01/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-244/#comment-282970</link>
		<dc:creator>Laird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2013 12:28:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16455#comment-282970</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[JV, it&#039;s clear from your comment that you understand neither hunting nor gun ownership. The two are only distantly related. One gets a hunting license for a specific type of game: different ones for different seasons. And the purpose is both game management (ensuring that not too many deer, say, are killed in one year) and, of course, government revenue.

As to gun ownership per se, there are many reasons for it and hunting is onely one. The purpose of the second amendment is not to protect our right to kill deer, but rather our right to kill politicians who become tyrants. An armed citizenry is the reason this country exists in the first place. And if it&#039;s to remain free (or, rather, to regain the freedom we once enjoyed) it&#039;s the only means of achieving that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JV, it&#8217;s clear from your comment that you understand neither hunting nor gun ownership. The two are only distantly related. One gets a hunting license for a specific type of game: different ones for different seasons. And the purpose is both game management (ensuring that not too many deer, say, are killed in one year) and, of course, government revenue.</p>
<p>As to gun ownership per se, there are many reasons for it and hunting is onely one. The purpose of the second amendment is not to protect our right to kill deer, but rather our right to kill politicians who become tyrants. An armed citizenry is the reason this country exists in the first place. And if it&#8217;s to remain free (or, rather, to regain the freedom we once enjoyed) it&#8217;s the only means of achieving that.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Marks</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/01/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-244/#comment-282905</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Marks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2013 09:32:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16455#comment-282905</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[True.

After all - otherwise Mr Glock would not have made his fortune.

Of course there are also some pretty automatic shotguns (for example the Korean one) - but we had better not &quot;go there&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True.</p>
<p>After all &#8211; otherwise Mr Glock would not have made his fortune.</p>
<p>Of course there are also some pretty automatic shotguns (for example the Korean one) &#8211; but we had better not &#8220;go there&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Alisa</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/01/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-244/#comment-282893</link>
		<dc:creator>Alisa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2013 08:50:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16455#comment-282893</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Paul, I agree with you on rifles, but not on handguns - the former are not for carrying around in a civilian setting, the latter are.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul, I agree with you on rifles, but not on handguns &#8211; the former are not for carrying around in a civilian setting, the latter are.</p>
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