<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Low information voters</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.samizdata.net/2013/01/low-information-voters/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/01/low-information-voters/</link>
	<description>A blog for people with a critically rational individualist perspective</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 09:16:48 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jacob</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/01/low-information-voters/#comment-273214</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2013 15:45:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16109#comment-273214</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks, Rich,
Maybe the preferrence for tall men is a modern feature, introduced with the TV.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Rich,<br />
Maybe the preferrence for tall men is a modern feature, introduced with the TV.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Nick (nice-guy) Gray</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/01/low-information-voters/#comment-272622</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick (nice-guy) Gray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2013 06:35:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16109#comment-272622</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Very good, Rich Rostrum!!! However, you did leave out a factor- what was the average height of a typical American at that time?
We tend to think of Napoleon as short, but he was average for France. However, he insisted on tall guards around him, so he looked, next to them, to be short!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very good, Rich Rostrum!!! However, you did leave out a factor- what was the average height of a typical American at that time?<br />
We tend to think of Napoleon as short, but he was average for France. However, he insisted on tall guards around him, so he looked, next to them, to be short!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rich Rostrom</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/01/low-information-voters/#comment-272607</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Rostrom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2013 04:16:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16109#comment-272607</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jacob: &lt;i&gt;Maybe history experts could tell if there was ever a shorter than average American president...&lt;/i&gt;

James Madison (1809-1817) - 5&#039; 4&quot;

Martin Van Buren (1837-1841) - 5&#039; 6&quot;; known as &quot;The Little Magician&quot;.

William McKinley (1897-1901) - 5&#039; 7&quot;; twice defeated William Jennings Bryan, 5&#039; 11&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jacob: <i>Maybe history experts could tell if there was ever a shorter than average American president&#8230;</i></p>
<p>James Madison (1809-1817) &#8211; 5&#8242; 4&#8243;</p>
<p>Martin Van Buren (1837-1841) &#8211; 5&#8242; 6&#8243;; known as &#8220;The Little Magician&#8221;.</p>
<p>William McKinley (1897-1901) &#8211; 5&#8242; 7&#8243;; twice defeated William Jennings Bryan, 5&#8242; 11&#8243;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: RRS</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/01/low-information-voters/#comment-272581</link>
		<dc:creator>RRS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2013 01:30:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16109#comment-272581</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Writing on a different point, Michael Polanyi gave an interesting example of a swarm of insects moving as a cloud across the field of vision with a seeming &quot;sense of direction.&quot; On closer inspection of that cloud it could be observed that the tiny creatures within it were all buzzing about in different, uncoordinated directions colliding with and avoiding one another, with no seeming common direction. Still despite the randomness of the activity within it the cloud had a direction, albeit random and wavering.

A social order will probably move much like the cloud of insects. Those that do not move within it, and thereby cause others to move, will possibly dropout, but the cloud will move and it will move because of the random individually directed actions of the members within the cloud. If not dropped out, the members will be moved along by the motions of others.

The analogy is also thought to be applicable to molecular motion of contained gases.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Writing on a different point, Michael Polanyi gave an interesting example of a swarm of insects moving as a cloud across the field of vision with a seeming &#8220;sense of direction.&#8221; On closer inspection of that cloud it could be observed that the tiny creatures within it were all buzzing about in different, uncoordinated directions colliding with and avoiding one another, with no seeming common direction. Still despite the randomness of the activity within it the cloud had a direction, albeit random and wavering.</p>
<p>A social order will probably move much like the cloud of insects. Those that do not move within it, and thereby cause others to move, will possibly dropout, but the cloud will move and it will move because of the random individually directed actions of the members within the cloud. If not dropped out, the members will be moved along by the motions of others.</p>
<p>The analogy is also thought to be applicable to molecular motion of contained gases.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Midwesterner</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/01/low-information-voters/#comment-272540</link>
		<dc:creator>Midwesterner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2013 21:43:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16109#comment-272540</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[J V,

I think I pick up on the specific moral issue you are facing.  It is one that I wrestled with for some time before resolving.  When one is attacked by a collectivist entity, then any part of the collectivist entity is morally burdened to share the costs of defending it.

If you are attacked by a feral animal, you don&#039;t confine yourself to counter attacks and defenses against just its teeth and claws, you justly attempt to disable its body as well.  Even though the legs themselves are not doing you any harm, they support and launch the teeth and claws against you.

An individual defending themselves against a collective entity must treat every unit of that collective entity as one cohesive unit.  That is the nature of collectivism.  If any unit in the collective wants out, they are welcome to join the cause of individual LLP.  So long as they support the collective, they are part of a monolithic enemy of liberty.

My recommendation to you, and to everybody else facing this question, is that you not project your individualism on to collectivists.  They are collectivists by choice and they share in the spoils.  Just as they do not recognize your individuality, you are not recognizing their collective identity.  

Just to be clear, morals must always trump utility.  Utilitarianism can turn the best of intentions into the darkest of evils.  I am speaking of the moral burden that members of a collective must bear.  Even if only at the ballot box, they are allowing themselves to be agents of evil.  Actions have consequences.  Their actions are causing consequences so they are responsible for those consequences.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>J V,</p>
<p>I think I pick up on the specific moral issue you are facing.  It is one that I wrestled with for some time before resolving.  When one is attacked by a collectivist entity, then any part of the collectivist entity is morally burdened to share the costs of defending it.</p>
<p>If you are attacked by a feral animal, you don&#8217;t confine yourself to counter attacks and defenses against just its teeth and claws, you justly attempt to disable its body as well.  Even though the legs themselves are not doing you any harm, they support and launch the teeth and claws against you.</p>
<p>An individual defending themselves against a collective entity must treat every unit of that collective entity as one cohesive unit.  That is the nature of collectivism.  If any unit in the collective wants out, they are welcome to join the cause of individual LLP.  So long as they support the collective, they are part of a monolithic enemy of liberty.</p>
<p>My recommendation to you, and to everybody else facing this question, is that you not project your individualism on to collectivists.  They are collectivists by choice and they share in the spoils.  Just as they do not recognize your individuality, you are not recognizing their collective identity.  </p>
<p>Just to be clear, morals must always trump utility.  Utilitarianism can turn the best of intentions into the darkest of evils.  I am speaking of the moral burden that members of a collective must bear.  Even if only at the ballot box, they are allowing themselves to be agents of evil.  Actions have consequences.  Their actions are causing consequences so they are responsible for those consequences.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Paul Marks</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/01/low-information-voters/#comment-272500</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Marks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2013 19:25:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16109#comment-272500</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Alas that alternative is not on offer J.V.

But if the alternatives were a smaller government (lower taxes, less regualtions and so on) against bigger (indeed totalitarian) government, I think you would vote.

The problem is that after SO MANY BETRAYALS it would be very hard to win over your trust again.

It is like a Congressman or a Senator or the United States (or an MP in Britain) making a wonderful speech about how much they want to fight big government - with the tears rolling down their face (or whatever).

Then one finds they voted FOR TARP (the bank bailouts), FOR the auto company bailouts, FOR the recent tax increaes (and on and on).

One is tempted to say.

&quot;Spare me your speeches - till your DEEDS match your words, I am just not interested&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alas that alternative is not on offer J.V.</p>
<p>But if the alternatives were a smaller government (lower taxes, less regualtions and so on) against bigger (indeed totalitarian) government, I think you would vote.</p>
<p>The problem is that after SO MANY BETRAYALS it would be very hard to win over your trust again.</p>
<p>It is like a Congressman or a Senator or the United States (or an MP in Britain) making a wonderful speech about how much they want to fight big government &#8211; with the tears rolling down their face (or whatever).</p>
<p>Then one finds they voted FOR TARP (the bank bailouts), FOR the auto company bailouts, FOR the recent tax increaes (and on and on).</p>
<p>One is tempted to say.</p>
<p>&#8220;Spare me your speeches &#8211; till your DEEDS match your words, I am just not interested&#8221;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Alisa</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/01/low-information-voters/#comment-272491</link>
		<dc:creator>Alisa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2013 18:55:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16109#comment-272491</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, JV, you did mention not having it figured out yet - so consider my comment an attempt to help:-) And like I said, the refusal to vote is only problematic in my view depending on the reasons for the refusal.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, JV, you did mention not having it figured out yet &#8211; so consider my comment an attempt to help:-) And like I said, the refusal to vote is only problematic in my view depending on the reasons for the refusal.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jaded Voluntaryist</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/01/low-information-voters/#comment-272486</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaded Voluntaryist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2013 18:33:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16109#comment-272486</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Paul I would generally agree with what you say.  Coming from a Voluntaryist position (which may or may not be the same as Voluntarist depending on who you ask), it is hard to conceive of any form of government which would please me.

Not impossible though.

Some form of night watchmen government (it doesn&#039;t have to be a democracy) governed by an inviolable constitution which cannot be amended and which clearly defines their sole task as protecting life, liberty and property, and expressly forbidden from expanding its remit - kept in check by fear of the civilian militia....

Something like that would suit me just fine.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul I would generally agree with what you say.  Coming from a Voluntaryist position (which may or may not be the same as Voluntarist depending on who you ask), it is hard to conceive of any form of government which would please me.</p>
<p>Not impossible though.</p>
<p>Some form of night watchmen government (it doesn&#8217;t have to be a democracy) governed by an inviolable constitution which cannot be amended and which clearly defines their sole task as protecting life, liberty and property, and expressly forbidden from expanding its remit &#8211; kept in check by fear of the civilian militia&#8230;.</p>
<p>Something like that would suit me just fine.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jaded Voluntaryist</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/01/low-information-voters/#comment-272484</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaded Voluntaryist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2013 18:26:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16109#comment-272484</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t think it&#039;s a means of escape Alisa, I&#039;ve still not got that figured out as I said.  I just want nothing to do with &quot;the system&quot; and find the notion of trying to exert majority control over others highly distasteful.  What I was expressing was my own personal preference rather than a coherent strategy to bring about a change.

However, despite my objections to the very concept of representative democracy, if I thought there was someone worth voting for who would neuter the state then I might be willing to put my objections to one side and vote for them.

Living as I do in NE Scotland, there is no such person.  No vote I cast from here will ever make the slightest bit of difference.  The candidates in all levels of election up here range from soft-left to hard-left.  I tried voting UKIP at the EU elections a few years ago.  There wasn&#039;t much point.

If there were some Ron/Rand Pauls or some Herman Cain&#039;s to vote for then perhaps I would view things differently.

Although all this talk of &quot;You don&#039;t vote for someone, you vote against them&quot; got me thinking about a way to improve democracy (such as it is).

How about if all elections had 2 questions instead of one &quot;Should we re-elect Mr. X? and if no, Who should replace him?&quot;.

That seems like a good way to ensure every single election was a total bloodbath of all but the most popular politicians, and that can only be a good thing.  If the pols were fighting among themselves, they&#039;d have less time left for me....]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s a means of escape Alisa, I&#8217;ve still not got that figured out as I said.  I just want nothing to do with &#8220;the system&#8221; and find the notion of trying to exert majority control over others highly distasteful.  What I was expressing was my own personal preference rather than a coherent strategy to bring about a change.</p>
<p>However, despite my objections to the very concept of representative democracy, if I thought there was someone worth voting for who would neuter the state then I might be willing to put my objections to one side and vote for them.</p>
<p>Living as I do in NE Scotland, there is no such person.  No vote I cast from here will ever make the slightest bit of difference.  The candidates in all levels of election up here range from soft-left to hard-left.  I tried voting UKIP at the EU elections a few years ago.  There wasn&#8217;t much point.</p>
<p>If there were some Ron/Rand Pauls or some Herman Cain&#8217;s to vote for then perhaps I would view things differently.</p>
<p>Although all this talk of &#8220;You don&#8217;t vote for someone, you vote against them&#8221; got me thinking about a way to improve democracy (such as it is).</p>
<p>How about if all elections had 2 questions instead of one &#8220;Should we re-elect Mr. X? and if no, Who should replace him?&#8221;.</p>
<p>That seems like a good way to ensure every single election was a total bloodbath of all but the most popular politicians, and that can only be a good thing.  If the pols were fighting among themselves, they&#8217;d have less time left for me&#8230;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Paul Marks</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/01/low-information-voters/#comment-272483</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Marks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2013 18:24:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16109#comment-272483</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For a true 100% &quot;Voluntarist&quot; any government at all is wrong - because it is based on force and fear (nonvoluntarism).

One can get such people to vote - if a clear choice between a bigger or smaller government is presented to them.

However, the &quot;alterative&quot; of big government &quot;compassionate&quot; conservatives (such as George Walker Bush or John Major or David Cameron) so &quot;turns off&quot; voluntarists, that is is very hard to get then to vote again.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For a true 100% &#8220;Voluntarist&#8221; any government at all is wrong &#8211; because it is based on force and fear (nonvoluntarism).</p>
<p>One can get such people to vote &#8211; if a clear choice between a bigger or smaller government is presented to them.</p>
<p>However, the &#8220;alterative&#8221; of big government &#8220;compassionate&#8221; conservatives (such as George Walker Bush or John Major or David Cameron) so &#8220;turns off&#8221; voluntarists, that is is very hard to get then to vote again.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Alisa</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/01/low-information-voters/#comment-272480</link>
		<dc:creator>Alisa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2013 18:16:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16109#comment-272480</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[JV, I think it was Trotsky who said: &#039;You may not be interested in war, but war &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; interested in you&#039;. That war Mid alludes to, it is very much interested in &lt;em&gt;you&lt;/em&gt;. That secret door of yours leads back to the same room you thought you&#039;d left - it&#039;s just a matter of time. Only when you are eventually back in that same room and at that same table you thought you left and could ignore, you may find different players with different cards - or even a different game altogether, where participation is no longer optional.

Now don&#039;t get me wrong, refusing to vote &lt;em&gt;can&lt;/em&gt; be an effective tactic - but it has to be that, i.e. a tactic in a war, most likely used in conjunction with other means. It is useless though as a means of escape from the war, which is what you seem to have been implying.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JV, I think it was Trotsky who said: &#8216;You may not be interested in war, but war <em>is</em> interested in you&#8217;. That war Mid alludes to, it is very much interested in <em>you</em>. That secret door of yours leads back to the same room you thought you&#8217;d left &#8211; it&#8217;s just a matter of time. Only when you are eventually back in that same room and at that same table you thought you left and could ignore, you may find different players with different cards &#8211; or even a different game altogether, where participation is no longer optional.</p>
<p>Now don&#8217;t get me wrong, refusing to vote <em>can</em> be an effective tactic &#8211; but it has to be that, i.e. a tactic in a war, most likely used in conjunction with other means. It is useless though as a means of escape from the war, which is what you seem to have been implying.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jaded Voluntaryist</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2013/01/low-information-voters/#comment-272472</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaded Voluntaryist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2013 17:35:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samizdata.net/?p=16109#comment-272472</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Refusal to choose is also a choice.  I&#039;ve never been a big believer in harm reduction doctrine, but that&#039;s maybe just me.  If given a choice between a lesser and a greater evil I would take secret door #3 - I would refuse to choose.  Evil is still evil be it big or small.  

&quot;I want nothing to do with this&quot; is almost always a perfectly reasonable response to any demand for action and I don&#039;t think it reasonable to then say that I was complicit in the harm caused by the system I refused to participate in.  


To say otherwise is a bit like Homer Simpson when he says: &lt;blockquote&gt;Lisa, maybe if I&#039;m part of that mob, I can help steer it in wise directions. Now where&#039;s my giant foam cowboy hat and airhorn?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Now that said, a person who has the capacity to act to save another and does not may legitimately be called a coward, but they are not the murderer.  He still bears full responsibility for his conduct.  I don&#039;t think participatory democracy is that clear cut though, which is why I eschew it altogether.

Ultimately the point is I don&#039;t want to see my dream government elected or my dream society built.  I want to mind my own business, associate with those who I wish to, avoid those who I don&#039;t and generally make my way through life neither molesting nor being molested.  I still haven&#039;t got that part figured out.....]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Refusal to choose is also a choice.  I&#8217;ve never been a big believer in harm reduction doctrine, but that&#8217;s maybe just me.  If given a choice between a lesser and a greater evil I would take secret door #3 &#8211; I would refuse to choose.  Evil is still evil be it big or small.  </p>
<p>&#8220;I want nothing to do with this&#8221; is almost always a perfectly reasonable response to any demand for action and I don&#8217;t think it reasonable to then say that I was complicit in the harm caused by the system I refused to participate in.  </p>
<p>To say otherwise is a bit like Homer Simpson when he says:<br />
<blockquote>Lisa, maybe if I&#8217;m part of that mob, I can help steer it in wise directions. Now where&#8217;s my giant foam cowboy hat and airhorn?</p></blockquote>
<p>Now that said, a person who has the capacity to act to save another and does not may legitimately be called a coward, but they are not the murderer.  He still bears full responsibility for his conduct.  I don&#8217;t think participatory democracy is that clear cut though, which is why I eschew it altogether.</p>
<p>Ultimately the point is I don&#8217;t want to see my dream government elected or my dream society built.  I want to mind my own business, associate with those who I wish to, avoid those who I don&#8217;t and generally make my way through life neither molesting nor being molested.  I still haven&#8217;t got that part figured out&#8230;..</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
