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	<title>Comments on: On the silliness of the wealth tax idea</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.samizdata.net/2012/09/on-the-sillines/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2012/09/on-the-sillines/</link>
	<description>A blog for people with a critically rational individualist perspective</description>
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		<title>By: Paul Marks</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2012/09/on-the-sillines/#comment-238229</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Marks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2012 11:46:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=15199#comment-238229</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Increase taxation on the big houses of the rich - and correspondingly cut taxes elsewhere&quot;.

The &quot;corresponding&quot; tax cuts would not happen. And the media might well report the whole thing as tax CUTS on the rich.

After the last British government budget (all things considered) put taxation on wealthy people - UP.

However, the media presented the budget as doing exactly the opposite.

It is not just the American media that is hopeless - or worse....]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Increase taxation on the big houses of the rich &#8211; and correspondingly cut taxes elsewhere&#8221;.</p>
<p>The &#8220;corresponding&#8221; tax cuts would not happen. And the media might well report the whole thing as tax CUTS on the rich.</p>
<p>After the last British government budget (all things considered) put taxation on wealthy people &#8211; UP.</p>
<p>However, the media presented the budget as doing exactly the opposite.</p>
<p>It is not just the American media that is hopeless &#8211; or worse&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2012/09/on-the-sillines/#comment-238228</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2012 18:15:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=15199#comment-238228</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Hugo Neal: the logical conclusion of your argument is that anyone who has a mortgage would have to have a deduct for the percentage of the house that they don&#039;t own, before calculating their notional &#039;income&#039; from home ownership. Otherwise they would be being taxed on notional income from an asset they don&#039;t actually own. So you are in fact arguing for a return to a sort of MIRAS, which seems an odd thing to do.

The other thing is why should your concept not be also introduced for other assets? After all some people own their cars, some hire them via leases, some buy via hire purchase, some buy via loans. Why not a car ownership tax, on the notional benefit to car owners?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Hugo Neal: the logical conclusion of your argument is that anyone who has a mortgage would have to have a deduct for the percentage of the house that they don&#8217;t own, before calculating their notional &#8216;income&#8217; from home ownership. Otherwise they would be being taxed on notional income from an asset they don&#8217;t actually own. So you are in fact arguing for a return to a sort of MIRAS, which seems an odd thing to do.</p>
<p>The other thing is why should your concept not be also introduced for other assets? After all some people own their cars, some hire them via leases, some buy via hire purchase, some buy via loans. Why not a car ownership tax, on the notional benefit to car owners?</p>
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		<title>By: Laird</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2012/09/on-the-sillines/#comment-238227</link>
		<dc:creator>Laird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2012 21:44:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=15199#comment-238227</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with Perry; Hugo&#039;s post is one of the more offensive I&#039;ve seen here in a while. Using one&#039;s own property for one&#039;s own purposes is in no way &quot;equivalent to income&quot; except to someone whose worldview is that everything belongs to the state and anything you get to keep is entirely at its sufferance. That&#039;s a philosophy which I absolutely reject. (It&#039;s the same philosophy inherent in the &quot;tax expenditure&quot; concept.)

However, there is one small element implicit in his comment which has some merit. The ability to deduct mortgage interest expense from gross income for tax purposes does artificially distort markets in favor of home ownership (since there is no corresponding deduction for rental payments). Personally, I take advantage of that deduction, but would not have much philosophic objection to its elimination (although a better solution would be to permit a deduction for rent, since it&#039;s already taxed to the landlord as income so deductibility would restore parity).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Perry; Hugo&#8217;s post is one of the more offensive I&#8217;ve seen here in a while. Using one&#8217;s own property for one&#8217;s own purposes is in no way &#8220;equivalent to income&#8221; except to someone whose worldview is that everything belongs to the state and anything you get to keep is entirely at its sufferance. That&#8217;s a philosophy which I absolutely reject. (It&#8217;s the same philosophy inherent in the &#8220;tax expenditure&#8221; concept.)</p>
<p>However, there is one small element implicit in his comment which has some merit. The ability to deduct mortgage interest expense from gross income for tax purposes does artificially distort markets in favor of home ownership (since there is no corresponding deduction for rental payments). Personally, I take advantage of that deduction, but would not have much philosophic objection to its elimination (although a better solution would be to permit a deduction for rent, since it&#8217;s already taxed to the landlord as income so deductibility would restore parity).</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Neal</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2012/09/on-the-sillines/#comment-238226</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Neal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2012 21:30:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=15199#comment-238226</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Telling people what their needs are is not really the point I&#039;m trying to make: sorry for inducing a nausea that has perhaps distracted you from addressing the argument.

I&#039;m really pointing out unequal tax treatment between renters and owners.  This can be done in language of imposition rather than privilege if it makes it more digestible:

Given that the confiscatory state actually is laying these various impositions on its subjects/victims, shouldn&#039;t we prefer that it does so in a way that is more equal and less distorting of economic incentives?

]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Telling people what their needs are is not really the point I&#8217;m trying to make: sorry for inducing a nausea that has perhaps distracted you from addressing the argument.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m really pointing out unequal tax treatment between renters and owners.  This can be done in language of imposition rather than privilege if it makes it more digestible:</p>
<p>Given that the confiscatory state actually is laying these various impositions on its subjects/victims, shouldn&#8217;t we prefer that it does so in a way that is more equal and less distorting of economic incentives?</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Marks</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2012/09/on-the-sillines/#comment-238225</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Marks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2012 21:03:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=15199#comment-238225</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have been hearing talk of a Wealth Tax (from the usual suspects  - the open socialists and the &quot;libertarian&quot; left). However, I have not being paying much attention to it - the vermin are always plotting something.

So it has gone &quot;mainstream&quot; has it?

And just as I thought things could not get any more stupid and economically suicidal.

]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been hearing talk of a Wealth Tax (from the usual suspects  &#8211; the open socialists and the &#8220;libertarian&#8221; left). However, I have not being paying much attention to it &#8211; the vermin are always plotting something.</p>
<p>So it has gone &#8220;mainstream&#8221; has it?</p>
<p>And just as I thought things could not get any more stupid and economically suicidal.</p>
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		<title>By: Perry de Havilland</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2012/09/on-the-sillines/#comment-238224</link>
		<dc:creator>Perry de Havilland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2012 15:16:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=15199#comment-238224</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hugo Neal&#039;s presumption of his right to rent-seek (in the most literal sense) is nauseating.  How dare he tell others what &#039;their needs&#039; are?  In reality what he is really saying is their &#039;needs&#039; must adjusted to whatever is more convenient to the needs of the confiscatory state as it doles out the &#039;privilege&#039; of owning things to people.

A very fascistic (right-socialist) world view, to be sure, in which one may own things privately just as long as it is in convenient for the state&#039;s objectives.

Absence of a tax is not a &#039;privilege&#039;,  the existence of one is an imposition, because ownership is not a privilege whose legitimacy depends of a King or State granting it, however much they would like you to think that way.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hugo Neal&#8217;s presumption of his right to rent-seek (in the most literal sense) is nauseating.  How dare he tell others what &#8216;their needs&#8217; are?  In reality what he is really saying is their &#8216;needs&#8217; must adjusted to whatever is more convenient to the needs of the confiscatory state as it doles out the &#8216;privilege&#8217; of owning things to people.</p>
<p>A very fascistic (right-socialist) world view, to be sure, in which one may own things privately just as long as it is in convenient for the state&#8217;s objectives.</p>
<p>Absence of a tax is not a &#8216;privilege&#8217;,  the existence of one is an imposition, because ownership is not a privilege whose legitimacy depends of a King or State granting it, however much they would like you to think that way.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Neal</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2012/09/on-the-sillines/#comment-238223</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Neal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:17:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=15199#comment-238223</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mansions are very much undertaxed in UK at the moment, and there are good arguments in equity for increasing tax on owner-occupied property (and making corresponding reductions elsewhere).

Having the use of a house is equivalent to enjoying an income of the amount at which the house could be rented.  This income is enjoyed without being subject to Income Tax:  there is no corresponding provision for those who do rent to deduct this expense from their income before tax is computed on it.  This is inequitable and unfairly favours those who can own their homes.  

This tax privileging of home ownership distorts the allocation of capital within the economy. (And never mind the reinforcement of this distortion arising from the exemption from Capital Gains Tax.)

Making pensioners conscious of the value of the housing that they are &quot;consuming&quot; each year, by taxing it as income in this way, would discourage them from staying in houses that are beyond their needs (even if the tax is rolled up and only becomes payable when the house is sold).  As they downsized, the return of the excess to the market would increase the supply and reduce housing costs for the upcoming generation which is so much downtrodden by this unfairness.

I&#039;m not taking a view on whether or not widows should be staying on in their family homes, just suggesting that they can only afford to do so because of these unseen and unfair tax privileges.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mansions are very much undertaxed in UK at the moment, and there are good arguments in equity for increasing tax on owner-occupied property (and making corresponding reductions elsewhere).</p>
<p>Having the use of a house is equivalent to enjoying an income of the amount at which the house could be rented.  This income is enjoyed without being subject to Income Tax:  there is no corresponding provision for those who do rent to deduct this expense from their income before tax is computed on it.  This is inequitable and unfairly favours those who can own their homes.  </p>
<p>This tax privileging of home ownership distorts the allocation of capital within the economy. (And never mind the reinforcement of this distortion arising from the exemption from Capital Gains Tax.)</p>
<p>Making pensioners conscious of the value of the housing that they are &#8220;consuming&#8221; each year, by taxing it as income in this way, would discourage them from staying in houses that are beyond their needs (even if the tax is rolled up and only becomes payable when the house is sold).  As they downsized, the return of the excess to the market would increase the supply and reduce housing costs for the upcoming generation which is so much downtrodden by this unfairness.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not taking a view on whether or not widows should be staying on in their family homes, just suggesting that they can only afford to do so because of these unseen and unfair tax privileges.</p>
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		<title>By: Laird</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2012/09/on-the-sillines/#comment-238222</link>
		<dc:creator>Laird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2012 19:09:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=15199#comment-238222</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You won&#039;t get off this f*cking Laffer Curve irrelevancy, will you? &lt;em&gt;Of course&lt;/em&gt; I&#039;m talking about the right side of the curve, which is where all modern governments are; I would have thought that was self-evident from the context. Your point might have had some relevance a century ago, but certainly not since World War I, when income taxes first reached modern levels. So I stand by my statement that reductions in marginal income tax rates always increase governmental revenues; that has been proven empirically time and time again (Kennedy, Reagan, Bush). And I also stand by my statement that &lt;em&gt;it doesn&#039;t f*cking matter&lt;/em&gt;, because absolute revenues are irrelevant to the people advocating new and/or higher taxes. 

Focus on what&#039;s important, not on pettifogging trivialities.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You won&#8217;t get off this f*cking Laffer Curve irrelevancy, will you? <em>Of course</em> I&#8217;m talking about the right side of the curve, which is where all modern governments are; I would have thought that was self-evident from the context. Your point might have had some relevance a century ago, but certainly not since World War I, when income taxes first reached modern levels. So I stand by my statement that reductions in marginal income tax rates always increase governmental revenues; that has been proven empirically time and time again (Kennedy, Reagan, Bush). And I also stand by my statement that <em>it doesn&#8217;t f*cking matter</em>, because absolute revenues are irrelevant to the people advocating new and/or higher taxes. </p>
<p>Focus on what&#8217;s important, not on pettifogging trivialities.</p>
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		<title>By: Rich Rostrom</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2012/09/on-the-sillines/#comment-238221</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Rostrom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2012 08:14:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=15199#comment-238221</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Rate cuts always increase tax revenues; that is suggested by the Laffer Curve...&lt;/i&gt;

That is not true, and the Laffer Curve suggests nothing of the kind. Laffer&#039;s argument was that increasing taxation of an activity above a certain level will reduce the volume of that activity by more than the increase in tax rate, leading to net loss of revenue, and that conversely, when an activity is taxed at levels that reduce volume of it, reducing tax increases activity by a higher proportion than the decrease in tax rate, leading to net increase in revenue.

If the tax on an activity is modest, an increase is unlikely to depress volume, and so will generate more revenue. A decrease won&#039;t increase volume and so will generate less revenue. That&#039;s the left side of the Laffer Curve.

For instance, if HMG imposed a 2p tax on football tickets, which sell for 30-50 pounds, would it affect sales? If the tax was later cut to 1p, would it cause sales to double?

But tax rates rarely stay on the left side of the Laffer Curve. Revenue-hungry governments inevitably push them up to and past the Laffer optimum.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Rate cuts always increase tax revenues; that is suggested by the Laffer Curve&#8230;</i></p>
<p>That is not true, and the Laffer Curve suggests nothing of the kind. Laffer&#8217;s argument was that increasing taxation of an activity above a certain level will reduce the volume of that activity by more than the increase in tax rate, leading to net loss of revenue, and that conversely, when an activity is taxed at levels that reduce volume of it, reducing tax increases activity by a higher proportion than the decrease in tax rate, leading to net increase in revenue.</p>
<p>If the tax on an activity is modest, an increase is unlikely to depress volume, and so will generate more revenue. A decrease won&#8217;t increase volume and so will generate less revenue. That&#8217;s the left side of the Laffer Curve.</p>
<p>For instance, if HMG imposed a 2p tax on football tickets, which sell for 30-50 pounds, would it affect sales? If the tax was later cut to 1p, would it cause sales to double?</p>
<p>But tax rates rarely stay on the left side of the Laffer Curve. Revenue-hungry governments inevitably push them up to and past the Laffer optimum.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2012/09/on-the-sillines/#comment-238220</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2012 00:45:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=15199#comment-238220</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Laird, amen.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Laird, amen.</p>
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		<title>By: Laird</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2012/09/on-the-sillines/#comment-238219</link>
		<dc:creator>Laird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2012 22:43:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=15199#comment-238219</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Tedd, that&#039;s exactly what I said: the Laffer Curve is &quot;merely an illustration of an idea, not a formula which can be used to compute some absolute ideal rate of taxes.&quot; And it&#039;s also completely off-topic here, so everyone should just get off this fixation on an irrelevant side issue. The fundamental point I was making is that most people who advocate &quot;increasing&quot; taxes are not interested in increasing governmental &lt;em&gt;revenues,&lt;/em&gt; but rather in increasing governmental &lt;em&gt;power&lt;/em&gt;. Arguing that some particular tax scheme (a wealth tax, whatever) won&#039;t generate the promised revenues is, at best, a waste of time, and at worst is playing directly into the taxer-hikers&#039; hands. The revenue which they claim will result from such taxes is merely a red herring, sleight of hand intended to distract everyone from the real issue. &lt;em&gt;Actual revenues are irrelevant to these people.&lt;/em&gt; ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tedd, that&#8217;s exactly what I said: the Laffer Curve is &#8220;merely an illustration of an idea, not a formula which can be used to compute some absolute ideal rate of taxes.&#8221; And it&#8217;s also completely off-topic here, so everyone should just get off this fixation on an irrelevant side issue. The fundamental point I was making is that most people who advocate &#8220;increasing&#8221; taxes are not interested in increasing governmental <em>revenues,</em> but rather in increasing governmental <em>power</em>. Arguing that some particular tax scheme (a wealth tax, whatever) won&#8217;t generate the promised revenues is, at best, a waste of time, and at worst is playing directly into the taxer-hikers&#8217; hands. The revenue which they claim will result from such taxes is merely a red herring, sleight of hand intended to distract everyone from the real issue. <em>Actual revenues are irrelevant to these people.</em> </p>
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		<title>By: RRS</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2012/09/on-the-sillines/#comment-238218</link>
		<dc:creator>RRS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2012 22:37:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=15199#comment-238218</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;strong&gt;Laird&lt;/strong&gt; is spot on!

These proposals are about  &lt;em&gt;power&lt;/em&gt;  not revenue.

This is the colectivists&#039; goal.

Now that the idea has become entrenched that the individual is simply the  &lt;em&gt;vehicle&lt;/em&gt;  through which society produces &lt;strong&gt;income&lt;/strong&gt; (goods and services), we move now to the stage that property (assets held) belong to society and the individual must pay for the &quot;privilege&quot; of holding and using  that which is his or her wealth.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Laird</strong> is spot on!</p>
<p>These proposals are about  <em>power</em>  not revenue.</p>
<p>This is the colectivists&#8217; goal.</p>
<p>Now that the idea has become entrenched that the individual is simply the  <em>vehicle</em>  through which society produces <strong>income</strong> (goods and services), we move now to the stage that property (assets held) belong to society and the individual must pay for the &#8220;privilege&#8221; of holding and using  that which is his or her wealth.</p>
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