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	<title>Comments on: The debt ceiling should be cut not raised</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.samizdata.net/2011/07/s-if-anything-t/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2011/07/s-if-anything-t/</link>
	<description>A blog for people with a critically rational individualist perspective</description>
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		<title>By: Paul Marks</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2011/07/s-if-anything-t/#comment-222550</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Marks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Aug 2011 15:57:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=14199#comment-222550</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[People now living (including many people involved in this site) will live to see the end of this farce - for it will end soon.

The end will, most likely, be terrible - but at least it will be the end.

That is some comfort.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People now living (including many people involved in this site) will live to see the end of this farce &#8211; for it will end soon.</p>
<p>The end will, most likely, be terrible &#8211; but at least it will be the end.</p>
<p>That is some comfort.</p>
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		<title>By: Laird</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2011/07/s-if-anything-t/#comment-222549</link>
		<dc:creator>Laird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jul 2011 18:04:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=14199#comment-222549</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I see that Moody&#039;s remains &lt;a href=&quot;http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/801-economy/174447-moodys-neither-plan-protects-the-nations-aaa-rating&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;pessimistic&lt;/a&gt; even if a debt ceiling increase should be enacted. If not an outright downgrade we&#039;re due for a &quot;negative outlook&quot; in the near term.

Antoine, &lt;a href=&quot;http://dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/100000/20000/6000/100/126195/126195.strip.sunday.gif&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this one&#039;s&lt;/a&gt; for you.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see that Moody&#8217;s remains <a href="http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/801-economy/174447-moodys-neither-plan-protects-the-nations-aaa-rating" rel="nofollow">pessimistic</a> even if a debt ceiling increase should be enacted. If not an outright downgrade we&#8217;re due for a &#8220;negative outlook&#8221; in the near term.</p>
<p>Antoine, <a href="http://dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/100000/20000/6000/100/126195/126195.strip.sunday.gif" rel="nofollow">this one&#8217;s</a> for you.</p>
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		<title>By: Antoine Clarke</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2011/07/s-if-anything-t/#comment-222548</link>
		<dc:creator>Antoine Clarke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jul 2011 15:18:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=14199#comment-222548</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Demand for tangible assets, gold and property, would tend to rise in a default situation. I&#039;m checking the use by dates on canned food: anything past 2015 is good. ;-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Demand for tangible assets, gold and property, would tend to rise in a default situation. I&#8217;m checking the use by dates on canned food: anything past 2015 is good. <img src='http://www.samizdata.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Laird</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2011/07/s-if-anything-t/#comment-222547</link>
		<dc:creator>Laird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jul 2011 15:01:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=14199#comment-222547</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree, Roue, that the Euro would be the obvious choice as the world&#039;s reserve currency should the dollar fail. The problem, however, is that the Euro is in even worse shape than the dollar, what with propping up the economies and the PIIGS nations and all. So I still feel that there&#039;s no real alternative to the dollar available. But I agree with you otherwise.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree, Roue, that the Euro would be the obvious choice as the world&#8217;s reserve currency should the dollar fail. The problem, however, is that the Euro is in even worse shape than the dollar, what with propping up the economies and the PIIGS nations and all. So I still feel that there&#8217;s no real alternative to the dollar available. But I agree with you otherwise.</p>
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		<title>By: GeeGuy</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2011/07/s-if-anything-t/#comment-222546</link>
		<dc:creator>GeeGuy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jul 2011 14:58:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=14199#comment-222546</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My understanding of all this from all you really smart guys is that default immediately solves two problems. No more debt and no more borrowing.  The budget is forcibly balanced if we can&#039;t borrow.  As for repurcussions in the US or elsewhere, I&#039;m no economist or sage, but I find it hard to believe they&#039;d be worse than what we&#039;re facing on this course.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My understanding of all this from all you really smart guys is that default immediately solves two problems. No more debt and no more borrowing.  The budget is forcibly balanced if we can&#8217;t borrow.  As for repurcussions in the US or elsewhere, I&#8217;m no economist or sage, but I find it hard to believe they&#8217;d be worse than what we&#8217;re facing on this course.</p>
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		<title>By: Roue le Jour</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2011/07/s-if-anything-t/#comment-222545</link>
		<dc:creator>Roue le Jour</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jul 2011 08:00:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=14199#comment-222545</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I fully agree with Laird, the US cannot default. The US government has got the ratings agencies to talk publicly about a downgrade simply to put pressure on Republicans to raise the debt ceiling. The US will increase taxes, reduce entitlements and put the National Guard on the streets to maintain order but it will not default.

I would take issue with Laird&#039;s statement that there is nothing to take the dollar&#039;s place as a reserve currency. The dollar obtains an enormous advantage from its reserve status and so to compare the reserve dollar and the non-reserve euro is misleading. Were the euro to become the reserve currency, capital would flow out of the US and into the EU, solving all the piggie problems at a stroke and leaving the US is a very precarious position indeed.

The US will not allow this to happen as it would be virtual suicide, but it would not be that much of a problem to the rest of the world if it did. In any case its hard to see how the reserve currency can change while the petrodollar system remains in place, and that is enforced by half the world&#039;s military, which happens to be American.

]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I fully agree with Laird, the US cannot default. The US government has got the ratings agencies to talk publicly about a downgrade simply to put pressure on Republicans to raise the debt ceiling. The US will increase taxes, reduce entitlements and put the National Guard on the streets to maintain order but it will not default.</p>
<p>I would take issue with Laird&#8217;s statement that there is nothing to take the dollar&#8217;s place as a reserve currency. The dollar obtains an enormous advantage from its reserve status and so to compare the reserve dollar and the non-reserve euro is misleading. Were the euro to become the reserve currency, capital would flow out of the US and into the EU, solving all the piggie problems at a stroke and leaving the US is a very precarious position indeed.</p>
<p>The US will not allow this to happen as it would be virtual suicide, but it would not be that much of a problem to the rest of the world if it did. In any case its hard to see how the reserve currency can change while the petrodollar system remains in place, and that is enforced by half the world&#8217;s military, which happens to be American.</p>
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		<title>By: Alisa</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2011/07/s-if-anything-t/#comment-222544</link>
		<dc:creator>Alisa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jul 2011 10:21:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=14199#comment-222544</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Useful summary, Laird - thanks.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Useful summary, Laird &#8211; thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Laird</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2011/07/s-if-anything-t/#comment-222543</link>
		<dc:creator>Laird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:23:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=14199#comment-222543</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A few comments on this thoughtful post:

1) Default on our debt will not happen unless the Obama administration makes a conscious decision to do so, which would be an impeachable act. There is plenty of revenue to meet all debt service obligations, and any maturing debt can be &quot;rolled over&quot; without exceeding the current ceiling, as it would simply be replacing existing debt. When Obama and Geithner threaten default they&#039;re lying, plain and simple. (Yes, I know: &lt;em&gt;quelle&lt;/em&gt; surprise.)

2) Certain government pension obligations are indeed contractual, but the big ones (Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid) are &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt;. The Supreme Court long ago specifically ruled that SS payments are &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; a right or a contract, but rather can be changed (raised, lowered, even eliminated outright) by simple act of Congress. (The same applies to all other welfare schemes.) Whether Congress would ever do so is an entirely separate question, but the fact remains that these payouts &lt;em&gt;could&lt;/em&gt; be reduced should Congress have the will. (This is why I object to calling them &quot;entitlements&quot;; they are nothing of the kind, but mere &lt;em&gt;expectancies&lt;/em&gt;.) 

3) Even the truly contractual pension obligations might not be quite as sacrosanct as you think. Yes, the courts would probably rule otherwise, but a Congress with the courage to reduce Social Security and other welfare payments would also have the courage to invoke sovereign immunity and repudiate the contracts. That&#039;s beyond the reach of the courts.

4) A downgrade is inevitable, as you say, whether or not the debt ceiling is raised. Rumors are that S&amp;P has already privately told the Administration that only spending cuts in the range of $4 &lt;em&gt;trillion&lt;/em&gt; would prevent it. None of the proposals being bandied about come anywhere near to that level of cuts. It won&#039;t happen, but a downgrade will. And it won&#039;t be the end of the world, just a modest increase in our debt service cost.

5) As you say, the current &quot;strategy&quot; (if one can dignify it with that term) is to inflate our way through this mess. That is a short-term solution at best, and it can&#039;t continue for too much longer: price inflation is already beginning to take its toll, notwithstanding the government&#039;s best efforts to pretend it away by playing games with the CPI index. But nascent inflation is already &quot;baked in&quot; to the currency; &quot;excess&quot; bank reserves (discussed by Midwesterner in his &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/2010/06/money_supply_th.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;article&lt;/a&gt; last summer) are today &lt;em&gt;60% higher&lt;/em&gt; than they were then (see &lt;a href=&quot;http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/EXCRESNS&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt;). Sooner or later they&#039;re going to start &quot;leaking&quot; out into the general economy and trigger massive inflation. 

6) If the US were to truly default on the payment of its bonds, the results would be very bad not only for us but for the rest of the world as well. Greece can default; the US cannot. For good or ill, the dollar is still the world&#039;s reserve currency, and there is nothing apparent which could take its place. But rather than default, the more likely scenario would be a simple inability to incur &lt;em&gt;additional&lt;/em&gt; debt, as the Chinese (and others) cut back on their purchases. That will happen sooner or later (debt ceiling notwithstanding), and it would force massive spending cuts and some pretty serious economic dislocations. And not just here: remember, when the US gets a cold the rest of the world gets pneumonia. (If we get pneumonia I shudder to think what will happen elsewhere.) In the long run getting our spending back to some normal, sustainable level will be a good thing, but the transition will be extremely unpleasant.

I&#039;d start looking at hard assets.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few comments on this thoughtful post:</p>
<p>1) Default on our debt will not happen unless the Obama administration makes a conscious decision to do so, which would be an impeachable act. There is plenty of revenue to meet all debt service obligations, and any maturing debt can be &#8220;rolled over&#8221; without exceeding the current ceiling, as it would simply be replacing existing debt. When Obama and Geithner threaten default they&#8217;re lying, plain and simple. (Yes, I know: <em>quelle</em> surprise.)</p>
<p>2) Certain government pension obligations are indeed contractual, but the big ones (Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid) are <em>not</em>. The Supreme Court long ago specifically ruled that SS payments are <em>not</em> a right or a contract, but rather can be changed (raised, lowered, even eliminated outright) by simple act of Congress. (The same applies to all other welfare schemes.) Whether Congress would ever do so is an entirely separate question, but the fact remains that these payouts <em>could</em> be reduced should Congress have the will. (This is why I object to calling them &#8220;entitlements&#8221;; they are nothing of the kind, but mere <em>expectancies</em>.) </p>
<p>3) Even the truly contractual pension obligations might not be quite as sacrosanct as you think. Yes, the courts would probably rule otherwise, but a Congress with the courage to reduce Social Security and other welfare payments would also have the courage to invoke sovereign immunity and repudiate the contracts. That&#8217;s beyond the reach of the courts.</p>
<p>4) A downgrade is inevitable, as you say, whether or not the debt ceiling is raised. Rumors are that S&#038;P has already privately told the Administration that only spending cuts in the range of $4 <em>trillion</em> would prevent it. None of the proposals being bandied about come anywhere near to that level of cuts. It won&#8217;t happen, but a downgrade will. And it won&#8217;t be the end of the world, just a modest increase in our debt service cost.</p>
<p>5) As you say, the current &#8220;strategy&#8221; (if one can dignify it with that term) is to inflate our way through this mess. That is a short-term solution at best, and it can&#8217;t continue for too much longer: price inflation is already beginning to take its toll, notwithstanding the government&#8217;s best efforts to pretend it away by playing games with the CPI index. But nascent inflation is already &#8220;baked in&#8221; to the currency; &#8220;excess&#8221; bank reserves (discussed by Midwesterner in his <a href="http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/2010/06/money_supply_th.html" rel="nofollow">article</a> last summer) are today <em>60% higher</em> than they were then (see <a href="http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/EXCRESNS" rel="nofollow">this</a>). Sooner or later they&#8217;re going to start &#8220;leaking&#8221; out into the general economy and trigger massive inflation. </p>
<p>6) If the US were to truly default on the payment of its bonds, the results would be very bad not only for us but for the rest of the world as well. Greece can default; the US cannot. For good or ill, the dollar is still the world&#8217;s reserve currency, and there is nothing apparent which could take its place. But rather than default, the more likely scenario would be a simple inability to incur <em>additional</em> debt, as the Chinese (and others) cut back on their purchases. That will happen sooner or later (debt ceiling notwithstanding), and it would force massive spending cuts and some pretty serious economic dislocations. And not just here: remember, when the US gets a cold the rest of the world gets pneumonia. (If we get pneumonia I shudder to think what will happen elsewhere.) In the long run getting our spending back to some normal, sustainable level will be a good thing, but the transition will be extremely unpleasant.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d start looking at hard assets.</p>
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		<title>By: RRS</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2011/07/s-if-anything-t/#comment-222542</link>
		<dc:creator>RRS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2011 16:26:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=14199#comment-222542</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In a more serious vein, there is a question that is generally being avoided (certainly at the U S political levels):

&lt;strong&gt;Who will be the lenders of the additional credit sources required?.&lt;/strong&gt;


Ancilliary: 

&lt;strong&gt;What will be the sources of capital for those lenders; and from what other uses will that capital be diverted?&lt;/strong&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a more serious vein, there is a question that is generally being avoided (certainly at the U S political levels):</p>
<p><strong>Who will be the lenders of the additional credit sources required?.</strong></p>
<p>Ancilliary: </p>
<p><strong>What will be the sources of capital for those lenders; and from what other uses will that capital be diverted?</strong></p>
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		<title>By: RRS</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2011/07/s-if-anything-t/#comment-222541</link>
		<dc:creator>RRS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2011 16:17:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=14199#comment-222541</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh! but we must borrow more in order to pay the interest, etc on the obligations we have created before.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh! but we must borrow more in order to pay the interest, etc on the obligations we have created before.</p>
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