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	<title>Comments on: Alameda County Cowards</title>
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	<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2011/07/alameda-county/</link>
	<description>A blog for people with a critically rational individualist perspective</description>
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		<title>By: Alisa</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2011/07/alameda-county/#comment-222379</link>
		<dc:creator>Alisa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jul 2011 16:06:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=14183#comment-222379</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I just remembered that I was also once saved from drowning. No way I could pass that on in that particular form though, as unfortunately I have not become a better swimmer since then. And, to this day (it happened something like 30 years ago) I have no idea who the guy was.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just remembered that I was also once saved from drowning. No way I could pass that on in that particular form though, as unfortunately I have not become a better swimmer since then. And, to this day (it happened something like 30 years ago) I have no idea who the guy was.</p>
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		<title>By: Dale Amon</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2011/07/alameda-county/#comment-222378</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale Amon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jul 2011 15:32:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=14183#comment-222378</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[PS: I do know someone saved from drowning when some brave person went in despite great risk. She in turn passed on the favor by saving someone else when she was older.

Incident noted above: no not by choice, at least in the sense of walking in knowing it ahead of time. Not meant to be an example of heroics, only that at that time and that place I was calm and thinking very clearly and very quickly in the face of something which would make many  irrational and terror striken. It is only a personal data point on my reaction to high danger, nothing more.

]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PS: I do know someone saved from drowning when some brave person went in despite great risk. She in turn passed on the favor by saving someone else when she was older.</p>
<p>Incident noted above: no not by choice, at least in the sense of walking in knowing it ahead of time. Not meant to be an example of heroics, only that at that time and that place I was calm and thinking very clearly and very quickly in the face of something which would make many  irrational and terror striken. It is only a personal data point on my reaction to high danger, nothing more.</p>
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		<title>By: Dale Amon</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2011/07/alameda-county/#comment-222377</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale Amon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jul 2011 15:10:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=14183#comment-222377</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m going to bookend this discussion with a few corrections. First of all, if anyone thought I was saying that a rescuer should always rush into a situation with no evaluation of the situation, then the point was missed. An individual makes that decision based on the situation they are in and not on the rules of a bureaucrat. 

In this particular case, a man walked out into the bay and stood neck deep for a very long time until overcome by the cold, at which point he drowned.  Most firemen I have known are the size of pro football players. They would likely have been shoulders above water at the same distance. In addition they most likely would have had body mass (heat storage mass) far above the guy who was standing out there. The fact that he was standing and did not actually go further tells me he wanted talked out of it. With his limbs cold I do not think he could have given much fight.

But they stood there, followed regulations and watched until the cold seeped into him and he finally went under.

That is just plain sick.
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m going to bookend this discussion with a few corrections. First of all, if anyone thought I was saying that a rescuer should always rush into a situation with no evaluation of the situation, then the point was missed. An individual makes that decision based on the situation they are in and not on the rules of a bureaucrat. </p>
<p>In this particular case, a man walked out into the bay and stood neck deep for a very long time until overcome by the cold, at which point he drowned.  Most firemen I have known are the size of pro football players. They would likely have been shoulders above water at the same distance. In addition they most likely would have had body mass (heat storage mass) far above the guy who was standing out there. The fact that he was standing and did not actually go further tells me he wanted talked out of it. With his limbs cold I do not think he could have given much fight.</p>
<p>But they stood there, followed regulations and watched until the cold seeped into him and he finally went under.</p>
<p>That is just plain sick.</p>
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		<title>By: Preston Hill</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2011/07/alameda-county/#comment-222376</link>
		<dc:creator>Preston Hill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jul 2011 06:05:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=14183#comment-222376</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Late on this thread I am, but I can&#039;t resist asking.  How many of you have actually fought, for combat it definitely can be, with a drowning person?  How many of you have resuscitated a person who, according to the measure of that time, had already drowned?  As a young man I was trained to do those things and did them.  Now, no longer anything like young, I might still go out for a child but I don&#039;t know whether I could handle an adult.  How many of you understand or have even heard the rule &quot;Row, throw, tow, go...&quot;?

Once, when I was still fairly young, but no longer working in the water, I was ashore and didn&#039;t go out for a boy--there was heavy surf, a over head shore break and an extremely nasty rip.  That was in a rural area far down the Mexican Pacific coast.  The boy survived, thanks to another man who was just finishing a ride on a surfboard.  Had the surfer not happened to be there I can&#039;t say to a certainty whether I would have gone out or not.  The next day I pulled out a local man in the same place.  The surf and rip had abated only slightly.  Possibly that act was some sort of redemption, but I&#039;ll remember and occasionally relive my initial failure for the rest of my very long life. 

Life can be difficult when you have choices.  May I ask whether you went to the grenade by choice?  Who is any of us to say, to speak of cowardice?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Late on this thread I am, but I can&#8217;t resist asking.  How many of you have actually fought, for combat it definitely can be, with a drowning person?  How many of you have resuscitated a person who, according to the measure of that time, had already drowned?  As a young man I was trained to do those things and did them.  Now, no longer anything like young, I might still go out for a child but I don&#8217;t know whether I could handle an adult.  How many of you understand or have even heard the rule &#8220;Row, throw, tow, go&#8230;&#8221;?</p>
<p>Once, when I was still fairly young, but no longer working in the water, I was ashore and didn&#8217;t go out for a boy&#8211;there was heavy surf, a over head shore break and an extremely nasty rip.  That was in a rural area far down the Mexican Pacific coast.  The boy survived, thanks to another man who was just finishing a ride on a surfboard.  Had the surfer not happened to be there I can&#8217;t say to a certainty whether I would have gone out or not.  The next day I pulled out a local man in the same place.  The surf and rip had abated only slightly.  Possibly that act was some sort of redemption, but I&#8217;ll remember and occasionally relive my initial failure for the rest of my very long life. </p>
<p>Life can be difficult when you have choices.  May I ask whether you went to the grenade by choice?  Who is any of us to say, to speak of cowardice?</p>
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		<title>By: Alisa</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2011/07/alameda-county/#comment-222375</link>
		<dc:creator>Alisa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jul 2011 14:14:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=14183#comment-222375</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dale, I&#039;m with you, at least emotionally, in that I &lt;em&gt;would &lt;/em&gt;expect the rescuers to respond differently, but I think that you are missing a point here: there is no way you can tell that those people are &lt;em&gt;cowards &lt;/em&gt;on the basis of this incident alone. For all we know, they may be very brave people, who are even willing to sacrifice their lives under certain circumstances - the fact that those circumstances may be different from the ones in your or mine expectations is a separate matter. IOW, they have a different set of priorities. The real problem is the system that at least partly dictates those priorities. You could well say &#039;screw the system&#039;, but that would mean that you cannot be part of it (see FlyingPig above).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dale, I&#8217;m with you, at least emotionally, in that I <em>would </em>expect the rescuers to respond differently, but I think that you are missing a point here: there is no way you can tell that those people are <em>cowards </em>on the basis of this incident alone. For all we know, they may be very brave people, who are even willing to sacrifice their lives under certain circumstances &#8211; the fact that those circumstances may be different from the ones in your or mine expectations is a separate matter. IOW, they have a different set of priorities. The real problem is the system that at least partly dictates those priorities. You could well say &#8216;screw the system&#8217;, but that would mean that you cannot be part of it (see FlyingPig above).</p>
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		<title>By: Nuke Gray</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2011/07/alameda-county/#comment-222374</link>
		<dc:creator>Nuke Gray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jul 2011 12:28:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=14183#comment-222374</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Look on the bright side- we&#039;ll soon be able to give up war entirely- it&#039;ll be regulated out of existence by a bureaucrat! You&#039;ll have mandated time off, you won&#039;t need to exercise so much (stress levels can cause all kinds of illnesses!), and you won&#039;t be allowed to do anything unless you have exactly the right equipment! Your chances of survival are excellent, even if you do end up in a war!
Some people might be inconvenienced, and die, but a bureaucrat has made the world safer, over-all!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Look on the bright side- we&#8217;ll soon be able to give up war entirely- it&#8217;ll be regulated out of existence by a bureaucrat! You&#8217;ll have mandated time off, you won&#8217;t need to exercise so much (stress levels can cause all kinds of illnesses!), and you won&#8217;t be allowed to do anything unless you have exactly the right equipment! Your chances of survival are excellent, even if you do end up in a war!<br />
Some people might be inconvenienced, and die, but a bureaucrat has made the world safer, over-all!</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2011/07/alameda-county/#comment-222373</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jul 2011 03:39:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=14183#comment-222373</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wait Dale, you are telling me that you saw someone commit several serious illegal acts in front of you and you didn&#039;t perform a citizen&#039;s arrest?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wait Dale, you are telling me that you saw someone commit several serious illegal acts in front of you and you didn&#8217;t perform a citizen&#8217;s arrest?</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2011/07/alameda-county/#comment-222372</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jul 2011 03:28:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=14183#comment-222372</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have to agree with Mr Rockwell here. People die trying to perform rescues unprepared. You see it all the time and it has happened in my family. It left my daughter with no grandfathers and possibly contributed to the early death of my mother. 

These first responders are not gung-ho adventurers, they are trained professionals. There is a right way to do a job and that is the way to do it.

In this particular case, possibly it was a bit borderline but in this case, in my opinion, the best thing would have been for one of the cops to draw their firearm and two in the head then home for cocoa. Someone who would perform an action which endangers others unnecessarily (which it would have, even were a boat present - Did I mention the rescuers that needed hospital treatment after attempting to rescue my father and father-in-law? I guess I did now).

Bottom line, this isn&#039;t a Hollywood movie. If things go wrong, people die. Fathers, friends, husbands, sons. These people *do* risk their lives (though I have certain opinions about many police) and it isn&#039;t really anyone&#039;s place to be calling them cowards without looking at their record and basing it on a single incident. I&#039;d lay good odds that if it was someone who had genuinely fallen in, they would have been gotten out. Heck, the guy was suicidal, who&#039;s to say he wouldn&#039;t have grabbed on and taken someone with him.

I&#039;m sure that some people may not get what I am saying. My writing is charged with emotion but I assure that it is tempered with rationality. If anything I&#039;m trying to say is unclear, I&#039;m happy to unravel it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to agree with Mr Rockwell here. People die trying to perform rescues unprepared. You see it all the time and it has happened in my family. It left my daughter with no grandfathers and possibly contributed to the early death of my mother. </p>
<p>These first responders are not gung-ho adventurers, they are trained professionals. There is a right way to do a job and that is the way to do it.</p>
<p>In this particular case, possibly it was a bit borderline but in this case, in my opinion, the best thing would have been for one of the cops to draw their firearm and two in the head then home for cocoa. Someone who would perform an action which endangers others unnecessarily (which it would have, even were a boat present &#8211; Did I mention the rescuers that needed hospital treatment after attempting to rescue my father and father-in-law? I guess I did now).</p>
<p>Bottom line, this isn&#8217;t a Hollywood movie. If things go wrong, people die. Fathers, friends, husbands, sons. These people *do* risk their lives (though I have certain opinions about many police) and it isn&#8217;t really anyone&#8217;s place to be calling them cowards without looking at their record and basing it on a single incident. I&#8217;d lay good odds that if it was someone who had genuinely fallen in, they would have been gotten out. Heck, the guy was suicidal, who&#8217;s to say he wouldn&#8217;t have grabbed on and taken someone with him.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure that some people may not get what I am saying. My writing is charged with emotion but I assure that it is tempered with rationality. If anything I&#8217;m trying to say is unclear, I&#8217;m happy to unravel it.</p>
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		<title>By: jsallison</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2011/07/alameda-county/#comment-222371</link>
		<dc:creator>jsallison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jul 2011 01:04:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=14183#comment-222371</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The guy chose to be there and initiated the chain of events that led to his death.  While I find it sad that no one present could summon up the necessary to do what was needful he got what he apparently wanted.  Would I have responded differently?  I like to think so, but I wasn&#039;t there.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The guy chose to be there and initiated the chain of events that led to his death.  While I find it sad that no one present could summon up the necessary to do what was needful he got what he apparently wanted.  Would I have responded differently?  I like to think so, but I wasn&#8217;t there.</p>
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		<title>By: Dale Amon</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2011/07/alameda-county/#comment-222370</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale Amon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jul 2011 23:57:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=14183#comment-222370</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No. But most whom I know are men and women who have honor and courage.

As to how I would react? I can only say that I&#039;ve stood and stared unblinking at a biker gang leader who held a grenade under my nose with the pin pulled while the rest of the gang surrounded me to see how I&#039;d react. I simply told myself I&#039;d see him in hell before I&#039;d show fear. And yes, I confirmed it was real. Found out for sure years later.

I&#039;ve also faced a few other incidents of extreme peril. and got myself and others out of them. Enough experience to have learned a bit about what sort of man I am.

So I have some basis, perhaps uncertain as such things are, of how I react when my life is on the line.
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No. But most whom I know are men and women who have honor and courage.</p>
<p>As to how I would react? I can only say that I&#8217;ve stood and stared unblinking at a biker gang leader who held a grenade under my nose with the pin pulled while the rest of the gang surrounded me to see how I&#8217;d react. I simply told myself I&#8217;d see him in hell before I&#8217;d show fear. And yes, I confirmed it was real. Found out for sure years later.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve also faced a few other incidents of extreme peril. and got myself and others out of them. Enough experience to have learned a bit about what sort of man I am.</p>
<p>So I have some basis, perhaps uncertain as such things are, of how I react when my life is on the line.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Rockwell</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2011/07/alameda-county/#comment-222369</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Rockwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jul 2011 22:45:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=14183#comment-222369</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Are you a first responder?  Police, fire, EMS, or the like?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are you a first responder?  Police, fire, EMS, or the like?</p>
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		<title>By: Dale Amon</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2011/07/alameda-county/#comment-222368</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale Amon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jul 2011 22:36:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=14183#comment-222368</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mr. Rockwell. Your efforts to rationalize cowardice are fascinating. I sincerely hope you are not a first responder because you do not seem to be the sort I would want on the scene were I in difficulty.

You train to a standard. And when duty calls for it, you reach inside and you go beyond it.

They were cowards.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Rockwell. Your efforts to rationalize cowardice are fascinating. I sincerely hope you are not a first responder because you do not seem to be the sort I would want on the scene were I in difficulty.</p>
<p>You train to a standard. And when duty calls for it, you reach inside and you go beyond it.</p>
<p>They were cowards.</p>
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