We are developing the social individualist meta-context for the future. From the very serious to the extremely frivolous... lets see what is on the mind of the Samizdata people.
Samizdata, derived from Samizdat /n. - a system of clandestine publication of banned literature in the USSR [Russ.,= self-publishing house]
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Samizdata cultural quote of the day “The fundamental story about consumer taste, in modern times, is not one of dumbing down or of producers seeking to satisfy a homogenous least common denominator at the expense of quality. Rather, the basic trend is of increasing variety and diversity, at all levels of quality, high and low.”
– Tyler Cowen, Creative Destruction: How Globalization is Changing The World’s Cultures. Page 127. First published in 2002.
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Who Are We? The Samizdata people are a bunch of sinister and heavily armed globalist illuminati who seek to infect the entire world with the values of personal liberty and several property. Amongst our many crimes is a sense of humour and the intermittent use of British spelling.
We are also a varied group made up of social individualists, classical liberals, whigs, libertarians, extropians, futurists, ‘Porcupines’, Karl Popper fetishists, recovering neo-conservatives, crazed Ayn Rand worshipers, over-caffeinated Virginia Postrel devotees, witty Frédéric Bastiat wannabes, cypherpunks, minarchists, kritarchists and wild-eyed anarcho-capitalists from Britain, North America, Australia and Europe.
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Not owning the book, (and being functionally illiterate besides) perhaps you could tell us: does Cowen make a convincing case that this is so?
My own experience is that the story of consumer taste is one about dumbing down, and of producers seeking to satisfy a homogenous least common denominator at the expense of quality. Of course, by “my experience,” I’m not claiming to be an economist, only that what I see in the shops seems to indicate that low cost is the primary consideration for the vast majority of
the great unwashedconsumers.If this were not so, I’m unclear on how China could have become such an economic powerhouse in so short a time. The Chinese are widely known, first and foremost, not for producing goods of superior quality, but for producing goods of low cost. The fact that they have come so far in so short a time would seem to say a lot.
Of course, I haven’t been to Neiman Marcus in a while, so for all I know, the place could be absolutely rammed nowadays with shoppers clamouring for non-Chinese-made, high quality luxury goods. I can’t really say myself, but perhaps someone else can speak to that?
I could be wrong, but I don’t think that is true, at least not any more. The Chinese are now rather known for producing anything, at any level of quality, at a lowest possible cost (the latter still being obviously dependent on the former). It just took them time to learn the skills, build the infrastructure, etc. (and not a long time at that).
Besides, I have not been to Neiman Marcus myself lately, but I am sure that if there are such people, they can always find what they are looking for if they have the means to pay for it. The point of the quote is not quality, it’s variety.
How do you figure that? Since the interweby-thingie arrived, I find myself able to listen to Senegalese Jali music, Croatian Eletro-Ganga from Herzegovina and Folk-Pop from Bulgaria, all with ease. I watch downloaded hilarious Taiwanese movies dubbed in Hindi with English subtitles… so frankly I no longer care or to be honest even notice what pap the music media sausage factories in the west are doing.
10 years ago I was immersed in ‘popular culture’ yet today I have no idea who 90% of the ‘top acts’ are in Britain or the USA. Ummm, that Lady Gaga chick, and , er, umm, ah… well I really dunno. Seriously. Yet I have added terabytes of music and movies on my hard drives over the last 10 years.
I’m inclined towards Tyler Cowen’s view rather than laidback’s.
I don’t think of Chinese goods as low quality any more, just cheap. I bought a petrol lawnmower, brand I’d never heard of, made in China, cost £100, has worked flawlessly. That’s pretty much what I expected; this experience is typical.
And high quality can always be found when you look for it. Perhaps not in high street shops, but probably more easily than ever before thanks to small, specialist businesses on the Internet. Ten years ago, could I have bought high quality, freshly roasted, single estate coffee? Probably not.
I also get the impression that today’s low quality goods are much better quality than mid-range stuff of 10 years ago or so.
Not sure I could put numbers on any of this, though.
I think that laidback’s comments are – too simplistic.
Firstly – from first-hand, OEM experience – the Chinese will produce whatever you want, at whatever level of quality you ask for and will pay for – at the lowest cost possible. To cast the entire Chinese manufacturing sector as operating in s single mode is wildly simplistic. The Chinese are indeed widely known for producing low-quality goods at low cost, but that is by no means the only thing they do. It’s not either/or – the Chinese do it all, from soup to nuts. For exmaple, they lead the world in injection-molded part making, at any and all price points – their tool-making and -operating skills are second to none. The finest mechanical watch movements in the world are no longer made in Switzerland (I hate to say it) but in China.
Secondly – I think what we are seeing is the increasing availability of a vast range of goods at extraordinarily low prices (and possibly at lower levels of quality to match those lower prices) but that were never available at any price or quality level just a few years ago.
Sure, Walmart is full of cheap, lower-quality, Chinese-made DVD players. But what sort of DVD player could you buy 20 years ago, at any price or quality level? The same goes for many of the other low-cost goods which fill our stores – many of them (not so long ago) were only available, even at the same quality at much higher cost. 500 aspirin tablets for $2.49? They used to come 25 in a silly little glass bottle with cotton wool stuffed in the neck – but not any more!
I think we also overlook the absolutely-stunning advances that have been made in product quality at all price points over the last few decades. Almost-all of our consumers goods are generally of far-higher and more-consistent quality thatn they have ever been before. Much of this is due to the fact that the ‘Asian Tigers’ and now China took in modern manufacturing quality methods from the ground up and it’s now in their DNA. Considering their truly-staggering outputs, and the amazing complexity of much of what they make, it’s very, very seldom that they slip up.
In short, the Chinese (and indeed, all the manufacturing economies of the Pacific Rim) have largely-broken the traditional connections between cost and quality, because now you can have as good a quality as you really need for ever-lower amounts of money. A Chinese-made Timex or a Japanese-made Seiko will now give you quality, life and function previously undreamed-of at any price, for an ever-reducing real cost.
llater,
llamas
Perhaps things have gone in all directions.
Definitely the quality and variety of goods available has increased dramatically, but have our awareness and understanding in some ways been coarsened?
The dumbing down is an attitude of “psychic brutality” that I don’t think is caused by lack of education, but rather because of it, as we are educated to be the serfs of the future.
Human creativity and achievement is a wonderful story. It is what has been done with it as individuals or groups seek to take control, that is the tragedy.
Several years ago I was looking to buy a Hunter ceiling fan for a new house. I was told that since I last had a Hunter (early 90s), most of them are now made in China, and only a few models are still being made in the US (and are being priced accordingly). Obviously, I went for the Chinese-made version, and was not disappointed: it was the same flawless quality I came to associate with the brand years ago. The important point here though is that although the US-made models were hideously expensive compared to the Chinese-made, the latter were still considerably more expensive than some generic Chinese ceiling fan. The point: you want quality, you pay for it. You want to save money, you forgo quality. The better the variety and the diversity, the more options are available to consumers.
That’s true: the Chinese manufacture everything from iPhones to vegetable peelers.
I guess, on my part, I’m not sure how the Chinese are widely perceived. For example, the phrase “Made in Japan” was fairly synonymous with cheap junk in the 1950’s. However, that same phrase stamped on a TV in the 1980’s meant that the consumer could expect to pay a premium price for that TV.
I don’t know if China in 2011 is still widely perceived as being like the Japan of the 1950’s, or the Japan of the 1980’s. Perhaps it’s somewhere between the two?
It would be interesting to know what percentage of the goods to be found in NM these days originate from China. I know that some things you’ll find there are made in China, but I’m not sure of the exact proportion.
I think the case could be made (well, I’ll try to, anyway) that the quote concerns both variety and quality equally:
For me, it’s just as important to be able to obtain a vegetable peeler that will last for five years as it is to obtain one that will last for five weeks.
The thing is, I’m not entirely sure if the demand for El Cheapo vegetable peelers can’t crowd out the demand for El Deluxo ones. Perhaps I’m making the mistake of believing in those “Fixed Quantity Of…” theories that Brian Micklethwait talked about in the post concerning Toby Young and education? 🙂
John B: I’m not sure about that either. I’d be the first to agree with you that public education in the West has done more damage than good overall, to both individuals and society. But then, said “education” is not really as all-consuming as one might think. The fact is, people (including kids) who want to learn, will learn regardless, and there are many examples of people with no formal education (or who can even be considered failures in it) who are successful in all kinds of fields. Furthemore and most importantly, for better or worse, each one of us will be naturally inclined to learn things (and “versions of truth”) our personalities predispose us to. Human nature is one of curiosity, inquiry and exploration, and that will never change.
Bingo:-)
Here’s the thing: you’re talking about the Internet. In my post, I was talking about what I see in the shops. Shops that have a finite supply of shelf and display space.
In my own shop-bound retail pursuits, I see (or, at least, think I see) a general (though not absolute) tendency toward mediocrity. Does everyone else see the same thing when they go shopping in The Big Room? Maybe, maybe not; Cowen apparently doesn’t.
Fair enough. But if 90% of the movies that people download are Hollywood blockbusters and 10% are hilarious Taiwanese movies dubbed in Hindi, can it honestly be said that “the basic trend is of increasing variety and diversity,” as Cowen claims?
You yourself might not want to waste drive space on Lady Gaga or, say, The Big Bus. However, I’m not sure how much of the rest of the world is following that same kind of trend. Trends are not necessarily about what you and I have on our respective hard drives: trends are about what an ever-increasing number of people have on their hard drives.
What percentage of the world’s hard drives contain Croatian Eletro-Ganga from Herzegovina vs. Lady Gaga? I’m not saying that the rest of the world doesn’t spend any of its time downloading Croatian Eletro-Ganga, just that the relative percentage of people might be very small compared to those who are burning up the InterTubes trying to download more Lada Gaga songs.
Laidback: it doesn’t really matter. The common denominator has always been fairly low, and I doubt it has gotten any lower (if it even could:-)). What has happened is that things are now easily accessible (both technically and financially), independent of their quality, that were not in the past – and that is a good thing. So maybe most people these days like Britney Spears, and in the past they might have liked Barry Maniow – the point is that both are now much more easily accessible.
Laidback, in answer to your question at the top of this board, he does. He demolishes much of the Eyeorishness of fusty conservatives who say everything is going to hell. It isn’t.
I like to be succinct these days. I am a busy lad.
Well, I’m a pretty simple guy, after all, and I’m doing the best I can here. 🙂
I understand (that is, I better understand after reading your post 🙂 ) that the Chinese can manufacture things of both high and low quality. However, I’m left wondering what percentage of consumers actively pursue variety and diversity when they look to buy something, and how many are perfectly content with what the corner shop offers, no need to look any further.
Your point seems to be that both the Chinese and the corner shop are able to offer an increasing variety of goods at steadily-increasing levels of value for money. Okay, I’ll agree with that. 🙂
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head in terms of what my secret fascination is with all this. 🙂
See, at first, I suppose I was guilty of thinking that the Internet, by and large, simply aided and accelerated the pursuit of the mediocre. IOW: the Internet allowed Barry Manilow to sell more albums than he did before simply because it’s now easier and faster to purchase things through the Internet.
However, llamas’ post has made me re-think all this (blast him!). 🙂 As he pointed out, markets are not necessarily exclusively a “pull” (demand from consumers) thing: they are also a “push” (supply from producers) thing. Where China seems to come into the equation is that their ability to produce anything one might want on a scale of efficiency never before seen allows manufacturers the ability to offer a greater variety of goods.
The greater the variety of goods that are on offer, the greater variety that consumers come to expect. Or something like that. 🙂
The reason I asked is because I’ve run into a few books with a fascinating premise that were pretty amazing for a chapter or two, (and, sadly, sometimes as little as a paragraph or two) while the rest had a distinct “filler” feel to it. I wasn’t sure if Cowen’s book might fall into that category or not; it sounds like it’s worth a look.
I understand entirely. Thank you for the reply and for the thought-provoking original post: I have learned a great deal in a very short time. 🙂
I think of slot toasters.
Fifty years ago such a toaster was a minor investment. It was made of stainless steel and was expected to last three generations or a nuclear war, whichever came first. And you had a few options ranging from smooth stainless steel with black end handles or stainless steel with some wavy lines inscribed on it for some reason, with black end handles.
Today, you can get a toaster for $11 dollars at Wal-Mart (or whatever) and comes in ten different colors (or some sort of shiny metal) and may only last three years before making one side of the bread black as coal and barely drying out the other side. Some people don’t mind the short run, because you just might be changing abodes with different color schemes and you’d want a new one anyway.
Of course, there are fancy, high end toasters with 54 different settings and sensors and you need an advanced degree in chaos theory to run it. It might only cost a few more dollars to produce, with higher end materials and thicker grade stainless steel, but slap a fancy name on it and people will slap down the money.
And there still the ones that are all retro and come in about the same price it did 50 years ago (adjusted for inflation).
So you can get a cheap one if you’re more of a disposable person, a high end one to impress the neighbors even though you’re only a quarter of the way through the operator’s manual (in six volumes), or one like mom and dad used to have.
Though one thing to observe, the people who produce and market toasters know there all these niches, so they can hood wink people into thinking they’re getting one caliber versus another by simpling upping the price. That, I think, is where the original notion is coming from. Paying $75 for a toaster that is a slightly gussied up $11 toaster without doing at least some homework. The ability of some producers to prefer a short run money grab versus the building up of a reliable brand name has always been around and always will be, that is until toasters are banned completely as toasted bread is considered a non-sensically individualist endeavor.
Laidback – I wasn’t going to be snarky. It’s a pity you can’t hear people’s inflexions on this Intertubes thingy.
Both Brad and yourself make excellent points.
I think one reason why we get the impression that consumer taste is ‘dumbing down’ (as you said) is that the Interwebpipes make the full range of consumer goods very-much-more visible than they ever were before. With just a few clicks, Amazon or Groupon or whatever will show you the entire gamut of consumer choices for a given article, including many which might (in the past) have not registered on your radar. They also allow you to make a much-quicker and more-accurate assessment of the real quality of a product (via custiomer reviews) vs the perceived quality (from past experience or mere brand recognition).
I think there’s another perception issue, also. Aloow me to expand . . . .
I bulk-purchased incandescent light bulbs the other day, because our benign leaders have decided to pick winners and losers in the market for light bulbs and I choose not to participate in their decision.
Used-to-was, you could shop for lightbulbs and have maybe 2 choices – the good ones, or the cheap ones. Now you can go to Bulbs.com, and you can choose from 34 different offerings for just the one specification you ask for. But many of them are clsutered at the lower end of the price spectrum, all (obviously) vying for the budget-conscious consumer by offering prices within pennies of each other. This may lead to the perception of a ‘cheapening’ of goods or a ‘dumbing-down’ of the consumer, simply because there are a large number of offerings at the lower end of the price range. But it ain’t necessarily so.
A fascinating subject and I are fascinated. Discuss.
llater,
llamas
Go into a supermarket (any supermarket, anywhere, and they exist in vastly more places than they did three decades ago) and look at the variety and quality of food on the shelves. Compare that with a supermarket (anywhere) three decades back. The variety that is available is just astoundingly greater than it was not even very long ago.
You always know how to assess “dumbing down” when a luxury car manufacturer announces plans to build a £700,000 hybrid supercar that does 200 mph and only costs £25 in road tax.
http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/jaguar-cx75-to-be-built-official-2011-05-06
Beer.
On the one hand: consolidation of the global brewing industry into a few giant firms (SABMiller, Anheuser-Busch Inbev).
On the other hand, an explosion of regional craft breweries, producing an enormous variety of styles and types of beer.
I was in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, last week. At the Hy-Vee supermarket, I could get any Bud/Miller/Coors – or any of about a dozen area craft beers, several national craft beers (Sierra Nevada, Sam Adams. Deschutes), and imports ranging from Guinness and Beck’s to a variety pack of Belgian monastery beers.
Oh, and the fish department had Scottish salmon and Chilean brook trout (both farm-raised).
This doesn’t look to me like “homogenous lowest common denominator” marketing.
Alisa:
From my perspective, as someone trying to build products from components procured in China, that is definitely not true. Not that it might not be true one day, but that learning process you mentioned is far from over.
For example, it is not yet possible to specify material on a drawing — even something as prosaic as steel — with full confidence that the part will actually be made from the specified material. In that sense, China is solidly more than a century behind Europe and North America (although I have no doubt it will take them much less than a century to fix that).
With a lot of hand-holding you can get products of acceptable quality made there, and more so in some industries than others. But if we think of countries as a black boxes that we put orders into and products come out of China is nowhere near in the same league as Europe, North America, or even some other parts of Asia.
It’s important to remember, though, that someone in my position in Europe 150 years ago would have said much the same of the U.S.
Tedd: it may well be the case that the Chinese made more progress in some industries than in others (in fact, that makes perfect sense). But overall, I think that the times when “Made in China” automatically meant ‘cheap crap’ are for the most part over.
Well, who IS making all the cheap crap? It doesn’t seem to be going away!
I am sure that ‘The Guardian’ will soon start talking about how we’re burdened with choice, and there are too many products on the shelves, and it all needs to be regulated and restricted. With the right laws, you’ll soon only be able to buy from the corner shop, once again.
How quickly we forget, we have been here before(Link):
1955 Doc Brown: No wonder this circuit failed. It says “Made in Japan”.
1985 Marty McFly: What do you mean, Doc? All the best stuff is made in Japan.
1955 Doc Brown: Unbelievable.
But…
Physical ‘shops’ as outlets for ‘culture’ are going the way of the dinosaur. Virgin Megastores, HMV etc are withering away before our eyes and that means it is not just weirdos like me that are staying away in droves.
Alisa:
There are two separate issues here. One is where the cheap crap is made, and the other is China’s capability.
Cheap crap is highly likely to come from China, but I don’t consider that a reflection on China’s capability. If I were having a product made that was aimed at the cheap crap demographic I’d have it made in China, too.
The more relevant issue is: What is China’s capability to manufacture products of a given quality relative to the capability of other countries? China is making great strides in this area and I think it will not be too much longer before they could be considered the equal of, say, Taiwan. But they are simply not in the same league as “western” countries in that regard.
If I send a drawing to a vendor anywhere in Europe, North America, Japan, and a few other places I know I will get something very, very close to what’s on the drawing, if not indistinguishable. In China, not so much. It will likely take quite a few iterations for them to get it right and then, quite often, a few batches later you’ll discover that it’s not right anymore.
There was a discussion here on Samizdata a few months ago about industrial standards. Industrial standards in the western world are so ubiquitous they’re like air: we only notice them when they’re gone. If say a part is to be made from ASTM A36 steel it will be made from ASTM A36 steel, and it will be actual ASTM A36 steel. But there is no such thing as ASTM A36 steel in China. They simply have not yet developed to the point where they have the infrastructure of industrial standardization that we do. So the part will be made from whatever they can get their hands on that’s somewhat similar to ASTM A36. I’m not spit-balling here, this is a real-world example, which I’ve seen more than once.
So it depends how you interpret the question. Yes, products of quite decent quality can be made in China. And it might even be worth the effort, given the direct cost savings. From a consumer’s point of view that may be all that matters. But from a manufacturer’s point of view China is a very different place to get work done than Europe, North America, and a few other places.
I take your point, Tedd. BTW, are there any regional differences within China in that regard? It is a very big country, after all.
Tedd wrote:
‘For example, it is not yet possible to specify material on a drawing — even something as prosaic as steel — with full confidence that the part will actually be made from the specified material. ‘
Well, my personal experience has been entirely different.
I find that my Chinese suppliers are conscientious to a fault in matters like this. In fact, I have a lot more trouble with US vendors, who sometimes take a very lah-di-dah attitude to things like material certifications and RoHS/WEE/REACH compliance paperwork.
And I’m not buying jet engine parts, either.
The last shipping drop test I had done by a Chinese supplier, they sent me a full-length video of the test being performed. I half-expected the engineer to hold up a copy of that day’s Shanghai Gazette (or whatever) to prove the date.
Once again, regarding this:
‘But there is no such thing as ASTM A36 steel in China. They simply have not yet developed to the point where they have the infrastructure of industrial standardization that we do. So the part will be made from whatever they can get their hands on that’s somewhat similar to ASTM A36. I’m not spit-balling here, this is a real-world example, which I’ve seen more than once.’
my personal experience is entirely different.
That being said, you will get a lot further with Chinese suppliers of hard parts if you will work with them to specify parts in materials that they can easily source. It’s no good drawing your part in a proprietary grade of steel that you can only buy from one US supplier. But I specify steel parts in AISI or equivalent grades all the time and my Chinese suppliers generally have no issues – and if they do, we can get together and pick whatever SUM-grade material will give an equivalent result. For most things, there are perfectly-acceptable equivalents. I’ve had much more trouble with European vendors in matters like this – they profess complete ignorance of common US specs for all sorts of things, and insist that The Only Way Is ISO. Bugger that for a game of soldiers.
Regarding this:
‘Yes, products of quite decent quality can be made in China. And it might even be worth the effort, given the direct cost savings.’
There is absolutely no question that vast cost savings can be realized, without sacrificing quality, by sourcing in China. There’s simply no ‘can’ or ‘might’ about it. There is a process that has to be gone through to reach that point – you have to pay your ‘school fees’ and learn how to do it – but, once done, the savings are real and consistent.
Coming again to my experience with injection-molded parts – working with Chinese vendors is like night and day compared to working with US vendors. With A US vendor, if you want a molded part, you first have to go though an extensive process of wheedling and whining about how your part is hard to make, and how it would be easier to make if you would only completely redesign it, and how the material you specified has a long lead time and can’t we make it out of what we happen to have here on the shelf? And then you have to wait for 22 weeks for a tool to make it to first trial, and when the part is not to print, the vendor will whine and snivel some more, and make you wait another 8 weeks for tool corrections, and then try to tell you that they were design changes, so there’ll be an upcharge. US mold vendors recoil from slides and lifters as a vampire from garlic.
Meanwhile, the Chinese vendor will DFM your part in 3 days, complete will mold-flow analysis and tolerance estimations, quote you a tool price that will not change, no matter what you do (and it’s 30% of the US vendor’s quote) and then deliver you first parts in 6 weeks, on time to the day, and which are 100% to print, with a 68-page inspection report, material certs, CpK analysis, and a piece part price that’s 30-60% lower than the US vendor. Tool corrections are very infrequent, but it’s not unknown for me to upload a correction one day and hear that the tool has been corrected the very next day, and corrected parts are on the plane that night. I can’t get that kind of response from a 30-year US vendor who is (literally) down the street from me. And my Chinese vendors actually relish a challenge – the harder a part is to mold, the more-insistent they are that they can do it, and better than the next outfit. Nothing scares them, and they have expanded my design horizons with their willingness to take on the big challenges. I have successfuly designed molded parts with the Chinese that would have gotten me called into the office just a decade ago, for designing parts that the supply chain can’t fulfil.
I’ll take door # 2, Alex.
Your descriptions of the trials you are having with Chinese vendors suggests to me that you have perhaps not yet fully completed the process of integration required to make them a normal part of your supply chain. I have, and they are now my preferred source for most things, most of the time, because they are cheaper, better and faster than domestic vendors for the great majority of what I have to source. They are great to work with as well, and could give lessons to more than a few of my local suppliers.
Sorry to be so long-winded, but I really felt the need to rebut the picture you are presenting.
llater,
llamas
Rich: the craft beer one is interesting. In the US, it seems to be mostly home brewers turning into little commercial breweries. In the UK, it is people setting up little breweries to preserve traditional styles of real ale. In Japan, it is sake producers diversifying into beer. Local circumstances seem to have found different routes in different places, but with much the same result – big companies mass producing commercial beer but simultaneously an explosion of interesting, small batch beers becoming available.
Nuke: don’t forget, choice implies competition which means advertising. Advertising means “waste” therefore choice must be done away with…
CountingCats, before Japan, there was “Made in Hong Kong”. Similar story there. There was also “Made in Taiwan” for a while but I’m not clear how to grade that.
Offtopic: Perry, your software tells mobile users that their comment has failed and invites them to try again. Meanwhile it actually posts the comment. Luckily I knew about this to check this time but I got caught before with a triple comment. You may want to look at that as it looks set to cause the problem it’s trying to solve.
There is a major software upgrade in the works for samizdata as it happens… may take a while however.
Some of you may know that I keep and play fine guitars. Always a Gibson man, I keep a cheap Made in Mexico Fender Stratocaster just because every well-equipped player needs some representative of that sound. Otherwise, my Gibson quiver has varied over the past thirty-five years or so enough to really know what I’m looking at and doing with these things. Currently, I’m running a 2004 Les Paul Studio (hand-numbered, custom color), a ’95 SG Special (white, with ebony fretboard), and a 1962 ES-355 with real PAF pickups.
About a month ago, wandering through a local shop, I came across a Chinese copy of a 1956 Les Paul Goldtop Standard — that would be the one with P90 pickups (the last year before the Humbuckers). This thing was right on target: lusting as I have been for P90’s in a Les Paul body type. After listening to it for a moment, my fiancé bought it before I could whip out the cash: $235. A 2011 Gibson of similar type would start at about $900 (the new Studio P90 releases) and could run to thousands, depending on how much time and money you wanted spend in the Custom Shop.
This is almost crazy. I’d thought, “Well, it really can’t be as good as I think it is, and if it’s not — at that price — I’ll enjoy beating it to death.” The woodwork here is superb, which is essential to a successful guitar of any type. The pickups are howling: this has been a P90 single-coil revelation to me, which is exactly what I had in mind.
Some of the hardware will have to go, but as one wag correctly pointed out, “hardware is fungible”. The basic instrument is astonishing, simply because of that price. It’s a second-rate guitar, but it’s so good that I don’t hesitate to gig it. It’s standing tall right next to my real guitars.
Now, I would have serious problems if this thing were turned out by laogai victims at gunpoint. If not, though, then this is only a good thing, worldwide.
And it has not even occurred to me to remove that “Made in China” sticker on the back of the machine head. It’s a great conversation piece among other players.
Tedd: an old friend of mine is operations manager for an American tech company subcontracting to China, and he describes exactly what you do. The man’s been pulling his hair out for several years now.
Did you get a quote from a Chinese programmer?
China loometh large in the Samizsphere.
Several factors are responsible for China’s reputation for cheap goods:
– They have a huge peasant class from which to draw on, and little distraction from concerns about individual satisfaction or advancement
– The country was industrially behind the West by at least 3 generations, maybe more, so disrupting existing infrastructure was simply not a concern
– shipping technology has advanced to the point where the rock-bottom costs of labor in the country, plus shipping half way around the world, is STILL much cheaper than producing the same goods locally
This situation will not last. It cannot last. Inflation, education, insurrection, and the relentless Darwinian tendency of the market (now global) to seek equilibrium will level the playing field for China too.
Sophisticated Chinese manufacturers are learning to produce goods for the West, but then turning around and marketing those same goods at higher and higher volumes, within China itself. We are becoming their lucrative test market, before they get down to the commodity business of selling to fellow Asians.
Richard, I am commenting from mobile with no problems.
Alisa, that’s no surprise. It’s quite consistent for me though. I will get by until the update. I will save time by preemptively declaring it as awful though 🙂
Jumping back in here after a long absence.
Llamas:
Not at all. Your experience pretty much confirms what I said. “With a lot of hand-holding you can get products of acceptable quality made there, and more so in some industries than others.” I have seen very good work come out of China, and I, too, have had some very positive experiences with vendors there. One vendor that I’m currently working with is outstanding.
But my career has also moved me through several different industries and exposed me to quite a few different vendors there over the last few years, and my experience has been very uneven. The question of standards is not moot, they really do not have standards bodies there in the manner that we have them in western countries. Not that standards are necessary to produce good work, but they make the process of getting to what you want much easier.
Alisa:
Regarding regional differences, I honestly don’t know. I’m an engineer, not a buyer, and I actually have very little idea which region any of the parts and products I’ve worked on have been made in.