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	<title>Comments on: Who are the real Islamophobes?</title>
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	<description>A blog for people with a critically rational individualist perspective</description>
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		<title>By: NickM</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2010/10/who-are-the-rea/#comment-210801</link>
		<dc:creator>NickM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Oct 2010 14:30:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=13667#comment-210801</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have to agree with a number of the commentators here. The &quot;phobia&quot; has been added to make it sound irrational. By that I mean a close down of debate. In the UK (and elsewhere) we have seen an appalling attempt to conflate &quot;Islamophobia&quot; with racism despite the (genuinely worrying) repeated claims by Islam that it is the &quot;One True Faith for All Humanity&quot;. from my Personal experience (yes, I have read The Qu&#039;ran and Hadith) the people who bandy terms like &quot;Islamophobe&quot; tend not to actually know anything about the religion.  It is a classic inversion. Yes, &quot;inversion&quot;. Any ideology can claim to stand for peace if everyone plays the game slavishly. &quot;Inversion&quot; is off course an old term for homosexuality which I suspect goes back to Sigmund Fraud et al. Hmm... 

Moreover there is a mighty hint of Orientalism kicking about. This is not new. If you read John Buchan&#039;s &quot;Greenmantle&quot; you will see it from nearly 100 years ago. Some lefty academics in the USA have started defending FGM. The same lefty academics who would howl if I came at their vulva with a rusty tin lid. That is Orientalism and it is fundamentally not enlightenment thinking. 

Furthermore, I think the conflation of &quot;phobias&quot; is... not academically helpful. Sexuality is not religion for example. Religion is not race. back to the sexuality. The way we view homosexual sex is not the way the ancient Greeks did and it is not the way many extant cultures do. But religion is - almost by definition - cast in stone. 

I guess what I&#039;m saying is it&#039;s too cutsey to lump all our hang-ups or distastes into the same pot. It is extremely lazy thinking. 

And there is another thing... Islam is fundamentally (I use that term word deliberately) a supremacist view. Very few examples of homosexuality I have come across are. Very few claim the moral high-ground. It&#039;s a different thing. Cute and neat to conflate but not intellectually helpful. 

I mentioned old Siggy Fraud. He was big on &quot;penis envy&quot;. I think he just made that up. From my experience girls have some mighty fine orgasms so why envy? Because Fraud really meant &quot;physics envy&quot;. His own envy. You read his stuff about cathexis and whatnot and it&#039;s screaming to be written in differential equations. He didn&#039;t manage it for it is all best bollocks but that was his aim - to understand human nature in terms analogous to physics. A complete failure to comprehend culture and perhaps perversity. The same tinker-toy mentality to culture, religion, sex, life, death, tomatoes pervades the arts and humanities and social sciences to this day. Marx did the same with the idea of &quot;scientific&quot; history. The most corrosive thing that has happened is the idea, inspired by the enormous successes of science over the last few hundred years is that the arts have to emulate them in a real half-assed manner. 

Now lets look at somethings I do know about. Beethoven and compressible flow. Einstein himself (both a musician and a scientist) stated that there is no point in analysing a piece of Beethoven in terms of air-pressure waves. No, there isn&#039;t. I can&#039;t play the triangle but I do know about fluid dynamics. The later doesn&#039;t help. I indeed know people who struggle with the Pythagorean Theorem but can bang-out a tune. Culture, society and all that are done a disservice when people attempt to understand them in what are frankly pseudo-scientific terms and make up big and &quot;clever&quot; words to that end. 

The attempt to scientificate every goddamn thing is (including God) is an appalling intellectual failure. And that applies to the &quot;phobias&quot;. Attempting to use the tools of science here is banging screws in with a hammer. 

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to agree with a number of the commentators here. The &#8220;phobia&#8221; has been added to make it sound irrational. By that I mean a close down of debate. In the UK (and elsewhere) we have seen an appalling attempt to conflate &#8220;Islamophobia&#8221; with racism despite the (genuinely worrying) repeated claims by Islam that it is the &#8220;One True Faith for All Humanity&#8221;. from my Personal experience (yes, I have read The Qu&#8217;ran and Hadith) the people who bandy terms like &#8220;Islamophobe&#8221; tend not to actually know anything about the religion.  It is a classic inversion. Yes, &#8220;inversion&#8221;. Any ideology can claim to stand for peace if everyone plays the game slavishly. &#8220;Inversion&#8221; is off course an old term for homosexuality which I suspect goes back to Sigmund Fraud et al. Hmm&#8230; </p>
<p>Moreover there is a mighty hint of Orientalism kicking about. This is not new. If you read John Buchan&#8217;s &#8220;Greenmantle&#8221; you will see it from nearly 100 years ago. Some lefty academics in the USA have started defending FGM. The same lefty academics who would howl if I came at their vulva with a rusty tin lid. That is Orientalism and it is fundamentally not enlightenment thinking. </p>
<p>Furthermore, I think the conflation of &#8220;phobias&#8221; is&#8230; not academically helpful. Sexuality is not religion for example. Religion is not race. back to the sexuality. The way we view homosexual sex is not the way the ancient Greeks did and it is not the way many extant cultures do. But religion is &#8211; almost by definition &#8211; cast in stone. </p>
<p>I guess what I&#8217;m saying is it&#8217;s too cutsey to lump all our hang-ups or distastes into the same pot. It is extremely lazy thinking. </p>
<p>And there is another thing&#8230; Islam is fundamentally (I use that term word deliberately) a supremacist view. Very few examples of homosexuality I have come across are. Very few claim the moral high-ground. It&#8217;s a different thing. Cute and neat to conflate but not intellectually helpful. </p>
<p>I mentioned old Siggy Fraud. He was big on &#8220;penis envy&#8221;. I think he just made that up. From my experience girls have some mighty fine orgasms so why envy? Because Fraud really meant &#8220;physics envy&#8221;. His own envy. You read his stuff about cathexis and whatnot and it&#8217;s screaming to be written in differential equations. He didn&#8217;t manage it for it is all best bollocks but that was his aim &#8211; to understand human nature in terms analogous to physics. A complete failure to comprehend culture and perhaps perversity. The same tinker-toy mentality to culture, religion, sex, life, death, tomatoes pervades the arts and humanities and social sciences to this day. Marx did the same with the idea of &#8220;scientific&#8221; history. The most corrosive thing that has happened is the idea, inspired by the enormous successes of science over the last few hundred years is that the arts have to emulate them in a real half-assed manner. </p>
<p>Now lets look at somethings I do know about. Beethoven and compressible flow. Einstein himself (both a musician and a scientist) stated that there is no point in analysing a piece of Beethoven in terms of air-pressure waves. No, there isn&#8217;t. I can&#8217;t play the triangle but I do know about fluid dynamics. The later doesn&#8217;t help. I indeed know people who struggle with the Pythagorean Theorem but can bang-out a tune. Culture, society and all that are done a disservice when people attempt to understand them in what are frankly pseudo-scientific terms and make up big and &#8220;clever&#8221; words to that end. </p>
<p>The attempt to scientificate every goddamn thing is (including God) is an appalling intellectual failure. And that applies to the &#8220;phobias&#8221;. Attempting to use the tools of science here is banging screws in with a hammer. </p>
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		<title>By: Paul Marks</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2010/10/who-are-the-rea/#comment-210800</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Marks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Oct 2010 00:01:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=13667#comment-210800</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Washington Post, L.A. Times and (New York Times owned) Boston Globe all run a common comic scrip (that is desturbing in its self - but it is not my point).

One day there was a joke in the c.s. which used the word &quot;Muhammed&quot; - he was not shown, and the joke did not attack Muhammed.

But the MSM newspapers pulled the thing - at once, and they did not even have the courage to admit that they did it out of fear.

They were so fearful they could not even admit their own fear.

These are the same newspapers who run editorials every other day (and whose every news story is slanted) with the Muslims-are-fluffy-anyone-who-implies-different-is-stupid-evil-and-mad line.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Washington Post, L.A. Times and (New York Times owned) Boston Globe all run a common comic scrip (that is desturbing in its self &#8211; but it is not my point).</p>
<p>One day there was a joke in the c.s. which used the word &#8220;Muhammed&#8221; &#8211; he was not shown, and the joke did not attack Muhammed.</p>
<p>But the MSM newspapers pulled the thing &#8211; at once, and they did not even have the courage to admit that they did it out of fear.</p>
<p>They were so fearful they could not even admit their own fear.</p>
<p>These are the same newspapers who run editorials every other day (and whose every news story is slanted) with the Muslims-are-fluffy-anyone-who-implies-different-is-stupid-evil-and-mad line.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim McGraw</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2010/10/who-are-the-rea/#comment-210799</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim McGraw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Oct 2010 17:09:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=13667#comment-210799</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Andrew, Islam is different because they have a hate  manual known as the Koran, without it these close minded people couldn&#039;t get out of their own way.  It is the teachings of Mohammad that bind them together.  There is no central authority in Islam, but still millions believe the same thing...world domination. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew, Islam is different because they have a hate  manual known as the Koran, without it these close minded people couldn&#8217;t get out of their own way.  It is the teachings of Mohammad that bind them together.  There is no central authority in Islam, but still millions believe the same thing&#8230;world domination. </p>
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		<title>By: Trofim</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2010/10/who-are-the-rea/#comment-210798</link>
		<dc:creator>Trofim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Oct 2010 11:44:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=13667#comment-210798</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I find it useful to wind up my opponents with the use of &quot;Islamophilia&quot; and in particular &quot;Islamophiliac&quot;, which has a nastier sound to. I explain it as &quot;an irrational liking for Islam&quot;, and as someone who is predisposed to suffer from it. They should be used widely and liberally in order to insinuate them into general consciousness. After all, that&#039;s how &quot;islamophobia&quot; meme was created and promoted - by using, using and using them again, particularly on left-wing blogs, such as Liberal Conspiracy or Pickled Politics.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find it useful to wind up my opponents with the use of &#8220;Islamophilia&#8221; and in particular &#8220;Islamophiliac&#8221;, which has a nastier sound to. I explain it as &#8220;an irrational liking for Islam&#8221;, and as someone who is predisposed to suffer from it. They should be used widely and liberally in order to insinuate them into general consciousness. After all, that&#8217;s how &#8220;islamophobia&#8221; meme was created and promoted &#8211; by using, using and using them again, particularly on left-wing blogs, such as Liberal Conspiracy or Pickled Politics.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Lale</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2010/10/who-are-the-rea/#comment-210797</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Lale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Oct 2010 11:34:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=13667#comment-210797</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Two things. I have a blog, and I say things regularly on my blog about Islam which I would not say if my real name was attached to my blog. That is because of my awareness of Daniel Pearl, Theo Van Gogh and thousands of other real-world events. I fear because of my knowledge.
Second point. Islam seems free of corporate responsibility for no reason I can fathom. If a group of Republicans decided to tour the world murdering people they disagree with spiritually and philosophically, would the London Times and the Washington Post repeat at every available opportunity, &#039;of course, this has nothing to do with Real Republicans, these people represent nothing but their own perverted ideology, you can&#039;t possibly hold your local neighborhood Republican in any way responsible&#039;?  I don&#039;t think so. So why is Islam different?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two things. I have a blog, and I say things regularly on my blog about Islam which I would not say if my real name was attached to my blog. That is because of my awareness of Daniel Pearl, Theo Van Gogh and thousands of other real-world events. I fear because of my knowledge.<br />
Second point. Islam seems free of corporate responsibility for no reason I can fathom. If a group of Republicans decided to tour the world murdering people they disagree with spiritually and philosophically, would the London Times and the Washington Post repeat at every available opportunity, &#8216;of course, this has nothing to do with Real Republicans, these people represent nothing but their own perverted ideology, you can&#8217;t possibly hold your local neighborhood Republican in any way responsible&#8217;?  I don&#8217;t think so. So why is Islam different?</p>
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		<title>By: Nuke Gray</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2010/10/who-are-the-rea/#comment-210796</link>
		<dc:creator>Nuke Gray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Oct 2010 06:32:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=13667#comment-210796</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mike, Santa Claus is not real, and nor is Yoda!
These are big concepts, I know, but I think it&#039;s time someone told you.
If &#039;phobia&#039; is taken to mean &#039;irrational fear&#039;, then none of us are islamophobiacs, or islamophobes. My fear of islam is based on the real evidence of the backwardness of many of the muslim countries, and the irrational statements put out by the Iranian President. My fear is rational, and therefore not a phobia.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike, Santa Claus is not real, and nor is Yoda!<br />
These are big concepts, I know, but I think it&#8217;s time someone told you.<br />
If &#8216;phobia&#8217; is taken to mean &#8216;irrational fear&#8217;, then none of us are islamophobiacs, or islamophobes. My fear of islam is based on the real evidence of the backwardness of many of the muslim countries, and the irrational statements put out by the Iranian President. My fear is rational, and therefore not a phobia.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Lorrey</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2010/10/who-are-the-rea/#comment-210795</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Lorrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Oct 2010 05:30:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=13667#comment-210795</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As Yoda once said, &quot;pain turns to fear, fear turns to hate, hate is where is found the dark side.&quot;

All these punctilius distinctions are really rather irrelevant. I always understood xenophobia to mean a fear of strangers, and, as Yoda said, fear can turn to hate, or in those not really inclined to the emotional investment of hating, to revulsion. 

I treat islamophobia, haplophobia and homophobia the same way, as well as lycopersicophobia (fear of tomatos).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Yoda once said, &#8220;pain turns to fear, fear turns to hate, hate is where is found the dark side.&#8221;</p>
<p>All these punctilius distinctions are really rather irrelevant. I always understood xenophobia to mean a fear of strangers, and, as Yoda said, fear can turn to hate, or in those not really inclined to the emotional investment of hating, to revulsion. </p>
<p>I treat islamophobia, haplophobia and homophobia the same way, as well as lycopersicophobia (fear of tomatos).</p>
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		<title>By: DachDerain</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2010/10/who-are-the-rea/#comment-210794</link>
		<dc:creator>DachDerain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Oct 2010 01:27:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=13667#comment-210794</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, I cannot conceive of the fear of jihadi terror or of suffering under sharia law to be irrational fears, so in my opinion the terms jihadophobia and shariaphobia would strain to find legitimacy.

This is akin to the old saying that it&#039;s not paranoia if they&#039;re really out to get you.  And the global Ummah is indeed out to Borgianly assimilate everyone on the planet, while relentlessly maintaining that resistance to the will of Allah as they interpret it (while simultaneously denying that they are interpreting at all) is futile, and deeming every refusal to embrace their faith to be an attack upon it deserving of a brutal &#039;defensive&#039; response.  And those infected with the jihadi mind virus fervently believe that they earn Paradise points by killing those who refuse to be converted or to become dhimmis and serfically submit to Caliphate hegemony, and murderously act on those beliefs.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I cannot conceive of the fear of jihadi terror or of suffering under sharia law to be irrational fears, so in my opinion the terms jihadophobia and shariaphobia would strain to find legitimacy.</p>
<p>This is akin to the old saying that it&#8217;s not paranoia if they&#8217;re really out to get you.  And the global Ummah is indeed out to Borgianly assimilate everyone on the planet, while relentlessly maintaining that resistance to the will of Allah as they interpret it (while simultaneously denying that they are interpreting at all) is futile, and deeming every refusal to embrace their faith to be an attack upon it deserving of a brutal &#8216;defensive&#8217; response.  And those infected with the jihadi mind virus fervently believe that they earn Paradise points by killing those who refuse to be converted or to become dhimmis and serfically submit to Caliphate hegemony, and murderously act on those beliefs.</p>
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		<title>By: Nuke Gray</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2010/10/who-are-the-rea/#comment-210793</link>
		<dc:creator>Nuke Gray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Oct 2010 00:50:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=13667#comment-210793</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the correct term might be &#039;Islamocratophobia&#039;, a fear of an Islamic society. Perhaps the term should be Khalifatophobia, fear of an Islamic empire.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the correct term might be &#8216;Islamocratophobia&#8217;, a fear of an Islamic society. Perhaps the term should be Khalifatophobia, fear of an Islamic empire.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave M. (now in S. Korea)</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2010/10/who-are-the-rea/#comment-210792</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave M. (now in S. Korea)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Oct 2010 23:50:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=13667#comment-210792</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Cliff May said it best.  Those who are intimidated by Islam try to hide their fear by standing on principle.  Thus, the constitutional arguments favoring the Ground Zero mosque as opposed to the moral argument against it.  The &quot;principled&quot; people think that if the ingratiate themselves to the jihadis, they will be spared their thuggery.  ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cliff May said it best.  Those who are intimidated by Islam try to hide their fear by standing on principle.  Thus, the constitutional arguments favoring the Ground Zero mosque as opposed to the moral argument against it.  The &#8220;principled&#8221; people think that if the ingratiate themselves to the jihadis, they will be spared their thuggery.  </p>
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		<title>By: keeskennis</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2010/10/who-are-the-rea/#comment-210791</link>
		<dc:creator>keeskennis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Oct 2010 22:46:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=13667#comment-210791</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;So who are the &#8216;Islam o phobes&#8217; again?&quot;
Wisely answered on &quot;phobes&quot; by most commentors
Then
Gray Woodland
&quot;Meantime, I keep my powder dry, and scan the horizon as I see it&quot;
I am Pre-Scotting this:
&quot;I will not shoot until I see the black veil that cover the  whites of their eyes&quot;
Call me a phobe, I am to paranoid for a taxi.
Jeebus
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;So who are the &lsquo;Islam o phobes&rsquo; again?&#8221;<br />
Wisely answered on &#8220;phobes&#8221; by most commentors<br />
Then<br />
Gray Woodland<br />
&#8220;Meantime, I keep my powder dry, and scan the horizon as I see it&#8221;<br />
I am Pre-Scotting this:<br />
&#8220;I will not shoot until I see the black veil that cover the  whites of their eyes&#8221;<br />
Call me a phobe, I am to paranoid for a taxi.<br />
Jeebus</p>
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		<title>By: Laocoon</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2010/10/who-are-the-rea/#comment-210790</link>
		<dc:creator>Laocoon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Oct 2010 22:31:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=13667#comment-210790</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[(A) Freud coined the term &#039;homophobia&#039; (rightly or wrongly) to describe the situation of someone who was terrified that  own latent homosexuality would come out in response to someone else&#039; overt homosexuality. This being terrifying to them, they displace the fear of their own homosexuality into fear and rage directed at the other.

Needless to say, most Muslims are quite aware that they are Muslims. And most people who fear and/or criticize Islam are pretty sure that they are not Muslims. So the metaphor is completely miscarried, except as a verbal association to suggest that fear of Muslims is just as neurotic, despicable, and misplaced as fear of gays in Freud&#039;s theory.

(B) &quot;Nobody has any idea how to fight this ideological battle&quot; -- I think we&#039;ve been fighting it for about 1400 years. So there are some pretty good lessons available as to how to do so, but they are best sought in the period before political correctness. Try 1800 or earlier.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(A) Freud coined the term &#8216;homophobia&#8217; (rightly or wrongly) to describe the situation of someone who was terrified that  own latent homosexuality would come out in response to someone else&#8217; overt homosexuality. This being terrifying to them, they displace the fear of their own homosexuality into fear and rage directed at the other.</p>
<p>Needless to say, most Muslims are quite aware that they are Muslims. And most people who fear and/or criticize Islam are pretty sure that they are not Muslims. So the metaphor is completely miscarried, except as a verbal association to suggest that fear of Muslims is just as neurotic, despicable, and misplaced as fear of gays in Freud&#8217;s theory.</p>
<p>(B) &#8220;Nobody has any idea how to fight this ideological battle&#8221; &#8212; I think we&#8217;ve been fighting it for about 1400 years. So there are some pretty good lessons available as to how to do so, but they are best sought in the period before political correctness. Try 1800 or earlier.</p>
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