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	<title>Comments on: Piracy on the high seas</title>
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	<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2008/11/piracy-on-the-h/</link>
	<description>A blog for people with a critically rational individualist perspective</description>
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		<title>By: llamas</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2008/11/piracy-on-the-h/#comment-179149</link>
		<dc:creator>llamas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:46:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=12052#comment-179149</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[James wrote:

&#039;I&#039;m no master mariner but that would seriously hinder the seaworthiness of a dhow...&#039;

The VLCC Sirius Star was taken by pirates operating off an ocean-going tug/tender. These vessels typically have a large open working deck aft, where towlines and other gear are stored and flaked out for use. Plenty of room, and all the rigging in the world, to set out and secure virtually any land-based weapons system there is. The T70 has a fine targetting system for the main gun, which I feel sure could handle mild to moderate seas with no problem.

The world is awash with people who have the know-how to deploy the most complex weapons systems. Such persons are especially plentiful in the Near and Middle East. And the pirates of the Indian Ocean have all the money they need to hire whatever skills they want.

Put out of your mind the idea that these are simply some feckless nomads in fishing boats out for what they can find. That&#039;s what they used to be - &lt;em&gt;but not anymore.&lt;/em&gt;

llater,

llamas]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James wrote:</p>
<p>&#8216;I&#8217;m no master mariner but that would seriously hinder the seaworthiness of a dhow&#8230;&#8217;</p>
<p>The VLCC Sirius Star was taken by pirates operating off an ocean-going tug/tender. These vessels typically have a large open working deck aft, where towlines and other gear are stored and flaked out for use. Plenty of room, and all the rigging in the world, to set out and secure virtually any land-based weapons system there is. The T70 has a fine targetting system for the main gun, which I feel sure could handle mild to moderate seas with no problem.</p>
<p>The world is awash with people who have the know-how to deploy the most complex weapons systems. Such persons are especially plentiful in the Near and Middle East. And the pirates of the Indian Ocean have all the money they need to hire whatever skills they want.</p>
<p>Put out of your mind the idea that these are simply some feckless nomads in fishing boats out for what they can find. That&#8217;s what they used to be &#8211; <em>but not anymore.</em></p>
<p>llater,</p>
<p>llamas</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2008/11/piracy-on-the-h/#comment-179148</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 00:56:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=12052#comment-179148</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think that llamas overestimates the strength of the Somali pirates, although he is right in stating that it is too optimistic to expect you can deal with them with a few machineguns bolted to the bridge wings. It&#039;s not a matter of having the arms, but of using them effectively if you have to and having the know-how to avoid trouble.

&quot;And you think that &#039; . . . a couple of 30 calibers mounted on the bridge wings would put paid to this.&#039; These folks left that sort of simplicty behind some time ago. When you open up with your 30 calibers, expect to be replied to by a twin DShK 38 mount or a hail of RPGs - or perhaps even a volley or two from the 125mm cannon and the 9M119 missile launchers mounted in the T70 MBT that they have chained to the deck.&quot;

I&#039;m no master mariner but that would seriously hinder the seaworthiness of a dhow...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that llamas overestimates the strength of the Somali pirates, although he is right in stating that it is too optimistic to expect you can deal with them with a few machineguns bolted to the bridge wings. It&#8217;s not a matter of having the arms, but of using them effectively if you have to and having the know-how to avoid trouble.</p>
<p>&#8220;And you think that &#8216; . . . a couple of 30 calibers mounted on the bridge wings would put paid to this.&#8217; These folks left that sort of simplicty behind some time ago. When you open up with your 30 calibers, expect to be replied to by a twin DShK 38 mount or a hail of RPGs &#8211; or perhaps even a volley or two from the 125mm cannon and the 9M119 missile launchers mounted in the T70 MBT that they have chained to the deck.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m no master mariner but that would seriously hinder the seaworthiness of a dhow&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Subotai Bahadur</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2008/11/piracy-on-the-h/#comment-179147</link>
		<dc:creator>Subotai Bahadur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:53:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=12052#comment-179147</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just as in domestic politics in the Western world, the uneven [and biased towards those in power] application of laws and constitutions forbids solutions to problems.  There is no doubt that a sufficient [and to be honest relatively small] application of force at a critical point would bring this problem to a screeching halt.  If say the port of Eyl, Somalia is, as reported, one of the centers of pirate activity; the application of a concept called &quot;ARC LIGHT&quot; to the area without warning would soon put an end to pirate activity not only there, but also elsewhere.  It would not even require precision guided munitions.  Just dumb bombs.  A lot of them, delivered with no possibility of interference by the locals.

That, of course, will not happen.  Because modern Western sensibilities are such that any attacks by tribal and non-melanin deprived populations on the West are not to be responded to in a way that would ensure victory.  It would not be either fair or compassionate in modern terms.

Letters of Marque, which would be a wonderful solution for a number of problems in the world, were banned by treaty long ago.  Britain and the EU have drawn their own rules against their own interests to such a degree that they cannot kill pirates except at the cost of the careers and possible incarceration of the military forces who do the killing, and if they capture them the pirates become clients of the Euro-welfare state with more legal rights than the average Euro-subject.  There will be no help from Western Europe.  The less that is said about which side the UN would be on, the better.

The United States will not be operating against pirate bases while Hussein Pasha is in the White House, and indeed our military will probably be subservient to the &quot;Civilian National Defense Force&quot; he will be creating outside their control. [for Brit readers, yes he really announced such in a speech not 50 miles from where I am writing, on July 2, and it has been confirmed by his new Chief of Staff, Rahm Emmanuel.  Think &lt;em&gt;Ton Ton Macoutes&lt;/em&gt;.]  

National governments will not allow the creation of a truly private military force outside their political control strong enough to do the job, because once created they might be hired by dissidents to work against national governments.  

The West has tied itself up in its own legalisms and political correct attitudes to the point of being unable and unwilling to defend themselves against armed attack.  Of course we knew that from other incidents long before piracy loomed large on the horizon.  

The only entities which have the capability to do something, and which may have the will to do so would be Russia, China, and India.  Each has its own reasons for not doing so.  &lt;strong&gt;IF&lt;/strong&gt; a Russian or Chinese vessel were to be taken and say the crew killed, there might be a limited strike similar to what the Soviets did in Lebanon the first and only time Soviets were kidnapped there.  But that would only grant immunity to their own vessels.

Being a &quot;barbarian&quot; in the world works, so long as the &quot;civilized&quot; world refuses to deal with them in the only terms they understand.  For some, the statement &lt;em&gt;Oderint dum Metuant&lt;/em&gt; is a reasonable explication of national policy.

Get used to piracy being an effective and profitable tactic for a number of years.

Subotai Bahadur]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just as in domestic politics in the Western world, the uneven [and biased towards those in power] application of laws and constitutions forbids solutions to problems.  There is no doubt that a sufficient [and to be honest relatively small] application of force at a critical point would bring this problem to a screeching halt.  If say the port of Eyl, Somalia is, as reported, one of the centers of pirate activity; the application of a concept called &#8220;ARC LIGHT&#8221; to the area without warning would soon put an end to pirate activity not only there, but also elsewhere.  It would not even require precision guided munitions.  Just dumb bombs.  A lot of them, delivered with no possibility of interference by the locals.</p>
<p>That, of course, will not happen.  Because modern Western sensibilities are such that any attacks by tribal and non-melanin deprived populations on the West are not to be responded to in a way that would ensure victory.  It would not be either fair or compassionate in modern terms.</p>
<p>Letters of Marque, which would be a wonderful solution for a number of problems in the world, were banned by treaty long ago.  Britain and the EU have drawn their own rules against their own interests to such a degree that they cannot kill pirates except at the cost of the careers and possible incarceration of the military forces who do the killing, and if they capture them the pirates become clients of the Euro-welfare state with more legal rights than the average Euro-subject.  There will be no help from Western Europe.  The less that is said about which side the UN would be on, the better.</p>
<p>The United States will not be operating against pirate bases while Hussein Pasha is in the White House, and indeed our military will probably be subservient to the &#8220;Civilian National Defense Force&#8221; he will be creating outside their control. [for Brit readers, yes he really announced such in a speech not 50 miles from where I am writing, on July 2, and it has been confirmed by his new Chief of Staff, Rahm Emmanuel.  Think <em>Ton Ton Macoutes</em>.]  </p>
<p>National governments will not allow the creation of a truly private military force outside their political control strong enough to do the job, because once created they might be hired by dissidents to work against national governments.  </p>
<p>The West has tied itself up in its own legalisms and political correct attitudes to the point of being unable and unwilling to defend themselves against armed attack.  Of course we knew that from other incidents long before piracy loomed large on the horizon.  </p>
<p>The only entities which have the capability to do something, and which may have the will to do so would be Russia, China, and India.  Each has its own reasons for not doing so.  <strong>IF</strong> a Russian or Chinese vessel were to be taken and say the crew killed, there might be a limited strike similar to what the Soviets did in Lebanon the first and only time Soviets were kidnapped there.  But that would only grant immunity to their own vessels.</p>
<p>Being a &#8220;barbarian&#8221; in the world works, so long as the &#8220;civilized&#8221; world refuses to deal with them in the only terms they understand.  For some, the statement <em>Oderint dum Metuant</em> is a reasonable explication of national policy.</p>
<p>Get used to piracy being an effective and profitable tactic for a number of years.</p>
<p>Subotai Bahadur</p>
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		<title>By: Nick M</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2008/11/piracy-on-the-h/#comment-179146</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:03:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=12052#comment-179146</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wouldn&#039;t something like an anti-tank missile of the Javelin variety really put a crimp on their day? Oh and of course a load of 50 calibres. Hell&#039;s teeth how much is a Phalanx defence system. I heard the USN had modified them to tackle small boats. In anycase Somalia is a hell-hole of epic proportions so if we just level the gaff who&#039;s gonna even notice? Or maybe not. I dunno. I read somewhere these guys are heroes back home. And if the Battle of the Black Sea is any measure they are not casualty averse. Some deranged loon charged at the US Rangers astride a cow during that one. This is because they are all bombed out of their boxes on khat. The Ranger who mowed down the bovine cavalry said it was like &quot;being attacked by refugees from the Disco Generation&quot;. 

A few frigates and a few helicopter gunships ought to keep the problem tolerable.  

Or of course we wait until Obama decides to go nation-building. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wouldn&#8217;t something like an anti-tank missile of the Javelin variety really put a crimp on their day? Oh and of course a load of 50 calibres. Hell&#8217;s teeth how much is a Phalanx defence system. I heard the USN had modified them to tackle small boats. In anycase Somalia is a hell-hole of epic proportions so if we just level the gaff who&#8217;s gonna even notice? Or maybe not. I dunno. I read somewhere these guys are heroes back home. And if the Battle of the Black Sea is any measure they are not casualty averse. Some deranged loon charged at the US Rangers astride a cow during that one. This is because they are all bombed out of their boxes on khat. The Ranger who mowed down the bovine cavalry said it was like &#8220;being attacked by refugees from the Disco Generation&#8221;. </p>
<p>A few frigates and a few helicopter gunships ought to keep the problem tolerable.  </p>
<p>Or of course we wait until Obama decides to go nation-building. </p>
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		<title>By: Johnathan Pearce</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2008/11/piracy-on-the-h/#comment-179145</link>
		<dc:creator>Johnathan Pearce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:02:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=12052#comment-179145</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Snag, whatever. I am can provide you with a version in classical Greek if necessary for the expression &quot;get a life&quot;.

]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Snag, whatever. I am can provide you with a version in classical Greek if necessary for the expression &#8220;get a life&#8221;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Snag</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2008/11/piracy-on-the-h/#comment-179144</link>
		<dc:creator>Snag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 11:55:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=12052#comment-179144</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;Snag, &quot;Premia&quot; is the plural of premium.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

If you were writing in Latin, undoubtedly.

In English, it&#039;s &#039;premiums&#039;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Snag, &#8220;Premia&#8221; is the plural of premium.</p></blockquote>
<p>If you were writing in Latin, undoubtedly.</p>
<p>In English, it&#8217;s &#8216;premiums&#8217;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: llamas</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2008/11/piracy-on-the-h/#comment-179143</link>
		<dc:creator>llamas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 10:46:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=12052#comment-179143</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[jsallison wrote

&#039;A couple of 30 calibers mounted on the bridge wings would put paid to this. Why is this even being discussed?&#039;

and that is exactly the sort of simplistic, one-dimensional thinking that will NOT solve this problem.

These are NOT simply a bunch of feckless African peasants whiling away an idle afternoon, and easily scared off by white man&#039;s juju. They already have heavy weapons - RPG&#039;s, heavy mounted machine guns, all kinds of infantry weapons and they just took a freighter carring 33 Russian-made main battle tanks as well as a host of other infantry and mounted weapons. What, you think that was just a coincidence? These folks have the makings of a small army at their disposal &lt;em&gt;and the cash to buy as much more as they need.&lt;/em&gt;

As their latest exploits have shown, they are now capable of complex logistics and intelligence-gathering, finding and stopping a VLCC in mid-ocean using at least two other vessels hijacked solely for the purpose and bringing it to a secure anchorage.

And you think that &#039;  . . . a couple of 30 calibers mounted on the bridge wings would put paid to this.&#039; These folks left that sort of simplicty behind some time ago. When you open up with your 30 calibers, expect to be replied to by a twin DShK 38 mount or a hail of RPGs - or perhaps even a volley or two from the 125mm cannon and the 9M119 missile launchers mounted in the T70 MBT that they have chained to the deck.

Tchah!

llater,

llamas



]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jsallison wrote</p>
<p>&#8216;A couple of 30 calibers mounted on the bridge wings would put paid to this. Why is this even being discussed?&#8217;</p>
<p>and that is exactly the sort of simplistic, one-dimensional thinking that will NOT solve this problem.</p>
<p>These are NOT simply a bunch of feckless African peasants whiling away an idle afternoon, and easily scared off by white man&#8217;s juju. They already have heavy weapons &#8211; RPG&#8217;s, heavy mounted machine guns, all kinds of infantry weapons and they just took a freighter carring 33 Russian-made main battle tanks as well as a host of other infantry and mounted weapons. What, you think that was just a coincidence? These folks have the makings of a small army at their disposal <em>and the cash to buy as much more as they need.</em></p>
<p>As their latest exploits have shown, they are now capable of complex logistics and intelligence-gathering, finding and stopping a VLCC in mid-ocean using at least two other vessels hijacked solely for the purpose and bringing it to a secure anchorage.</p>
<p>And you think that &#8216;  . . . a couple of 30 calibers mounted on the bridge wings would put paid to this.&#8217; These folks left that sort of simplicty behind some time ago. When you open up with your 30 calibers, expect to be replied to by a twin DShK 38 mount or a hail of RPGs &#8211; or perhaps even a volley or two from the 125mm cannon and the 9M119 missile launchers mounted in the T70 MBT that they have chained to the deck.</p>
<p>Tchah!</p>
<p>llater,</p>
<p>llamas</p>
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		<title>By: Johnathan Pearce</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2008/11/piracy-on-the-h/#comment-179142</link>
		<dc:creator>Johnathan Pearce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 06:57:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=12052#comment-179142</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Snag, &quot;Premia&quot; is the plural of premium. Premia also happens to be a place in Switzerland or northern Italy, I believe.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Snag, &#8220;Premia&#8221; is the plural of premium. Premia also happens to be a place in Switzerland or northern Italy, I believe.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: jsallison</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2008/11/piracy-on-the-h/#comment-179141</link>
		<dc:creator>jsallison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 01:36:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=12052#comment-179141</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A couple of 30 calibers mounted on the bridge wings would put paid to this.  Why is this even being discussed?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A couple of 30 calibers mounted on the bridge wings would put paid to this.  Why is this even being discussed?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Snag</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2008/11/piracy-on-the-h/#comment-179140</link>
		<dc:creator>Snag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 21:33:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=12052#comment-179140</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Not &#039;premia&#039; surely.

What do you call those quacks who talk to the spirit world, media?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not &#8216;premia&#8217; surely.</p>
<p>What do you call those quacks who talk to the spirit world, media?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: lucklucky</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2008/11/piracy-on-the-h/#comment-179139</link>
		<dc:creator>lucklucky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:40:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=12052#comment-179139</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think that sinking by Indian Navy might be an historical landmark. NATO have ships in Indian Ocean since long ago and due to enormous rules burden and mission confusion due to cultural and post-modernism in Western World political thinking have been unable to do anything meaningful to make it costly to pirates. As such this is a path where Aliances with and within Western World means nothing and it would be preferable to make it with Chinese, Indians, Russians and all others that don&#039;t suffer from a post-modernist society.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that sinking by Indian Navy might be an historical landmark. NATO have ships in Indian Ocean since long ago and due to enormous rules burden and mission confusion due to cultural and post-modernism in Western World political thinking have been unable to do anything meaningful to make it costly to pirates. As such this is a path where Aliances with and within Western World means nothing and it would be preferable to make it with Chinese, Indians, Russians and all others that don&#8217;t suffer from a post-modernist society.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: RAB</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2008/11/piracy-on-the-h/#comment-179138</link>
		<dc:creator>RAB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:03:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=12052#comment-179138</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well the Indian Navies responce is to be highly commended.
They fired on us we fired on them.
Their boat sank.
Oh dear, how sad, never mind...

Much better than our FO telling our ships to leave well alone, or the fuckers might claim asylum!

Yes Johnathan is right, you have to take out the land bases or you are wasting your time.

You could follow the money too though. I hardly think the Saudis are getting instructions to leave 20 million in the third waste bin down from the corner of Mogadishu Hight Street, in return for their tanker now are they?
No Bank transferences are involved.
Find, freeze or block them. Better still confiscate them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well the Indian Navies responce is to be highly commended.<br />
They fired on us we fired on them.<br />
Their boat sank.<br />
Oh dear, how sad, never mind&#8230;</p>
<p>Much better than our FO telling our ships to leave well alone, or the fuckers might claim asylum!</p>
<p>Yes Johnathan is right, you have to take out the land bases or you are wasting your time.</p>
<p>You could follow the money too though. I hardly think the Saudis are getting instructions to leave 20 million in the third waste bin down from the corner of Mogadishu Hight Street, in return for their tanker now are they?<br />
No Bank transferences are involved.<br />
Find, freeze or block them. Better still confiscate them.</p>
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