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	<title>Comments on: A sinister development</title>
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	<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2008/11/a-sinister-deve/</link>
	<description>A blog for people with a critically rational individualist perspective</description>
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		<title>By: guy herbert</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2008/11/a-sinister-deve/#comment-179589</link>
		<dc:creator>guy herbert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Nov 2008 07:57:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=12078#comment-179589</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry, in the above,

&lt;em&gt;Who ordered the arrest? .... Did one of those factors apply?&lt;/em&gt;

Should all be italicised, as Sunfish&#039;s question.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, in the above,</p>
<p><em>Who ordered the arrest? &#8230;. Did one of those factors apply?</em></p>
<p>Should all be italicised, as Sunfish&#8217;s question.</p>
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		<title>By: guy herbert</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2008/11/a-sinister-deve/#comment-179588</link>
		<dc:creator>guy herbert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Nov 2008 07:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=12078#comment-179588</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sunfish,

&lt;em&gt;Who ordered the arrest? If it was pursuant to a warrant, the warrant should have been issued by a judge. Correct?

At least here, if the arrest was made without a warrant, then additional justification would generally be needed: inability to identify the arrestee, reasonable basis to believe that the arrestee would flee the jurisdiction or refuse to appear if summoned to court, or reasonable grounds to believe that he&#039;d pose a danger to himself or to the public at large if not arrested.

Did one of those factors apply?&lt;/em&gt;

No. Police and prosecuting authorities have much more arbitrary power here than in the States. It has been accruing for over 20 years, but has been massively increased in the last decade.

No warrant is in general required for an arrest, unless the arrest is being made on behalf of a third party such as court whose order is being defied, the HMRC in its tax function (though the Inland Revenue is pushing to get police arrest powers too). No warrant is required for very extensive search and seizure of property associated with the person arrested, provided the reason given for arrest is moderately serious. Police can authorise themselves to bug suspects or to use numerous powers of entry.  ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sunfish,</p>
<p><em>Who ordered the arrest? If it was pursuant to a warrant, the warrant should have been issued by a judge. Correct?</p>
<p>At least here, if the arrest was made without a warrant, then additional justification would generally be needed: inability to identify the arrestee, reasonable basis to believe that the arrestee would flee the jurisdiction or refuse to appear if summoned to court, or reasonable grounds to believe that he&#8217;d pose a danger to himself or to the public at large if not arrested.</p>
<p>Did one of those factors apply?</em></p>
<p>No. Police and prosecuting authorities have much more arbitrary power here than in the States. It has been accruing for over 20 years, but has been massively increased in the last decade.</p>
<p>No warrant is in general required for an arrest, unless the arrest is being made on behalf of a third party such as court whose order is being defied, the HMRC in its tax function (though the Inland Revenue is pushing to get police arrest powers too). No warrant is required for very extensive search and seizure of property associated with the person arrested, provided the reason given for arrest is moderately serious. Police can authorise themselves to bug suspects or to use numerous powers of entry.  </p>
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		<title>By: Paul Marks</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2008/11/a-sinister-deve/#comment-179587</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Marks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Nov 2008 22:09:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=12078#comment-179587</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The last time I heard Hazel Blears, this person was on a radio show claiming that people were too cynical about politicians and that they deserved credit for (for example) &quot;the great improvements in education&quot;.

The next day a mainstream independent association of scientists (the Royal Society of Chemistry, I seem to remember) reported that science education (in all the sciences) was now a farce at school level - with &quot;A&quot; (advanced) level examination at 18 year of age, having collapsed in the level of knowledge and problem solving the courses teach.

No doubt H.B. will also deny that the recent arrest has anything to do with trying to create a &quot;chilling effect&quot; on dissent - that would be &quot;cynical&quot; and such a cynical attitude &quot;should not exist&quot;.

]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The last time I heard Hazel Blears, this person was on a radio show claiming that people were too cynical about politicians and that they deserved credit for (for example) &#8220;the great improvements in education&#8221;.</p>
<p>The next day a mainstream independent association of scientists (the Royal Society of Chemistry, I seem to remember) reported that science education (in all the sciences) was now a farce at school level &#8211; with &#8220;A&#8221; (advanced) level examination at 18 year of age, having collapsed in the level of knowledge and problem solving the courses teach.</p>
<p>No doubt H.B. will also deny that the recent arrest has anything to do with trying to create a &#8220;chilling effect&#8221; on dissent &#8211; that would be &#8220;cynical&#8221; and such a cynical attitude &#8220;should not exist&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: el windy</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2008/11/a-sinister-deve/#comment-179586</link>
		<dc:creator>el windy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Nov 2008 09:40:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=12078#comment-179586</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Having just got back to the UK from Italy where elected politicians can literally get away with murder and no VIP collars will ever be felt by the gallant Carabinieri or other members of the police force, I find this story refreshing. Whilst I agree that the arrest and raids are outrageous, at least someone here still cares about personal liberty and is prepared to raise a huge stink about it and at the same time being an elected politician or front bench oppposition spokesman doesn&#039;t make you immune to arrest, is also a positive.
I do wonder, however, about how many of your posters live in urban inner city areas - there seems to be a worrying predominant bunker mentality in the tone of the majority of the comments.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having just got back to the UK from Italy where elected politicians can literally get away with murder and no VIP collars will ever be felt by the gallant Carabinieri or other members of the police force, I find this story refreshing. Whilst I agree that the arrest and raids are outrageous, at least someone here still cares about personal liberty and is prepared to raise a huge stink about it and at the same time being an elected politician or front bench oppposition spokesman doesn&#8217;t make you immune to arrest, is also a positive.<br />
I do wonder, however, about how many of your posters live in urban inner city areas &#8211; there seems to be a worrying predominant bunker mentality in the tone of the majority of the comments.</p>
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		<title>By: Sunfish</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2008/11/a-sinister-deve/#comment-179585</link>
		<dc:creator>Sunfish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Nov 2008 07:33:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=12078#comment-179585</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Okay, so he was suspected of conspiring to commit some sort of official misconduct. That&#039;s a wonderfully-vague term for readers not familiar with UK law.

Who ordered the arrest? If it was pursuant to a warrant, the warrant should have been issued by a judge. Correct?

At least here, if the arrest was made without a warrant, then additional justification would generally be needed: inability to identify the arrestee, reasonable basis to believe that the arrestee would flee the jurisdiction or refuse to appear if summoned to court, or reasonable grounds to believe  that he&#039;d pose a danger to himself or to the public at large if not arrested. 

Did one of those factors apply? Was it not possible to identify a member of Parliament? Was there a concern that he&#039;d run over people in his car and beat up nuns if not immediately taken into custody? Did he have a secret Namibian passport and a private plane with warm engines waiting?

My entire adult life as a cop has taught me one thing: the truth generally sounds true, and a lie generally sounds like bullshit. The relevance: when the PM and the HS both claim not to have been informed ahead of time of a police plan to arrest an opposition member of Parliament, I know how that sounds-about like if the US AG had claimed to not know that the FBI was planning to arrest a Democratic representative who was storing eighty grand of bribe money in his freezer.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, so he was suspected of conspiring to commit some sort of official misconduct. That&#8217;s a wonderfully-vague term for readers not familiar with UK law.</p>
<p>Who ordered the arrest? If it was pursuant to a warrant, the warrant should have been issued by a judge. Correct?</p>
<p>At least here, if the arrest was made without a warrant, then additional justification would generally be needed: inability to identify the arrestee, reasonable basis to believe that the arrestee would flee the jurisdiction or refuse to appear if summoned to court, or reasonable grounds to believe  that he&#8217;d pose a danger to himself or to the public at large if not arrested. </p>
<p>Did one of those factors apply? Was it not possible to identify a member of Parliament? Was there a concern that he&#8217;d run over people in his car and beat up nuns if not immediately taken into custody? Did he have a secret Namibian passport and a private plane with warm engines waiting?</p>
<p>My entire adult life as a cop has taught me one thing: the truth generally sounds true, and a lie generally sounds like bullshit. The relevance: when the PM and the HS both claim not to have been informed ahead of time of a police plan to arrest an opposition member of Parliament, I know how that sounds-about like if the US AG had claimed to not know that the FBI was planning to arrest a Democratic representative who was storing eighty grand of bribe money in his freezer.</p>
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		<title>By: USpace</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2008/11/a-sinister-deve/#comment-179584</link>
		<dc:creator>USpace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Nov 2008 06:27:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=12078#comment-179584</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[.
If Labour and the Tories would just be sensible and honest about immigration policies and problems, then non-racist Brits simply concerned with Britain would not be driven to the only party concerned about immigration problems, the BNP; most of whose members are NOT &#039;fascists&#039; or &#039;racists&#039;.  

Gordon Brown is clearly a fascist wannabe, and it would be even worse for Boris Johnson to have been privy to this.  Hopefully most people will hear about this.
.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
arrest innocent MPs

for just doing their jobs
exposing failed policies

.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
be a violent leftist

attack conservatives&#039; homes
you brown-shirt NAZI FASCISTS

.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe thinks
Marx was NOT an idiot

keep believing and HOPING
that communism WILL WORK

.
All real freedom starts with freedom of speech.  Without freedom of speech there can be no real freedom.
.
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.libertarian.to/images/animation/PhilosophyOfLiberty-english.swf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Philosophy of Liberty Cartoon&lt;/a&gt;
.
&lt;a href=&quot;http://haltterrorism.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Help Halt Terrorism Today!&lt;/a&gt;
.
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.lulu.com/uspace&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;USpace&lt;/a&gt;

:)
.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>.<br />
If Labour and the Tories would just be sensible and honest about immigration policies and problems, then non-racist Brits simply concerned with Britain would not be driven to the only party concerned about immigration problems, the BNP; most of whose members are NOT &#8216;fascists&#8217; or &#8216;racists&#8217;.  </p>
<p>Gordon Brown is clearly a fascist wannabe, and it would be even worse for Boris Johnson to have been privy to this.  Hopefully most people will hear about this.<br />
.<br />
absurd thought -<br />
God of the Universe says<br />
arrest innocent MPs</p>
<p>for just doing their jobs<br />
exposing failed policies</p>
<p>.<br />
absurd thought -<br />
God of the Universe says<br />
be a violent leftist</p>
<p>attack conservatives&#8217; homes<br />
you brown-shirt NAZI FASCISTS</p>
<p>.<br />
absurd thought -<br />
God of the Universe thinks<br />
Marx was NOT an idiot</p>
<p>keep believing and HOPING<br />
that communism WILL WORK</p>
<p>.<br />
All real freedom starts with freedom of speech.  Without freedom of speech there can be no real freedom.<br />
.<br />
<a href="http://www.libertarian.to/images/animation/PhilosophyOfLiberty-english.swf" rel="nofollow">Philosophy of Liberty Cartoon</a><br />
.<br />
<a href="http://haltterrorism.com" rel="nofollow">Help Halt Terrorism Today!</a><br />
.<br />
<a href="http://www.lulu.com/uspace" rel="nofollow">USpace</a><br />
 <img src='http://www.samizdata.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
.</p>
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		<title>By: RAB</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2008/11/a-sinister-deve/#comment-179583</link>
		<dc:creator>RAB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Nov 2008 23:57:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=12078#comment-179583</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When I was a Civil Servant, I leaked like a sieve.

This was the honourable and noble stance to take!

After all we Civil Servants were supposed to be beyond politics.

So I just went with the truth instead...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I was a Civil Servant, I leaked like a sieve.</p>
<p>This was the honourable and noble stance to take!</p>
<p>After all we Civil Servants were supposed to be beyond politics.</p>
<p>So I just went with the truth instead&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Ron Brick</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2008/11/a-sinister-deve/#comment-179582</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Brick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Nov 2008 23:18:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=12078#comment-179582</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/3534787/Jacqui-Smith-under-pressure-over-Damian-Green-arrest.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The details are even more suspect&lt;/a&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/3534787/Jacqui-Smith-under-pressure-over-Damian-Green-arrest.html" rel="nofollow">The details are even more suspect</a></p>
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		<title>By: APL</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2008/11/a-sinister-deve/#comment-179581</link>
		<dc:creator>APL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Nov 2008 23:02:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=12078#comment-179581</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Tory party is an absolute outrage. The lot of them should be arrested!

They have been utterly useless as an opposition.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Tory party is an absolute outrage. The lot of them should be arrested!</p>
<p>They have been utterly useless as an opposition.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2008/11/a-sinister-deve/#comment-179580</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Nov 2008 19:55:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=12078#comment-179580</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Will be interested to see how the papers report this tomorrow.  Shouldn&#039;t have thought there will be too many who swallow the ZNL line.  The problem is - as an earlier contributor pointed out - if something similar had happened to a normal member of the public, the MSM wouldn&#039;t give a toss.  ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will be interested to see how the papers report this tomorrow.  Shouldn&#8217;t have thought there will be too many who swallow the ZNL line.  The problem is &#8211; as an earlier contributor pointed out &#8211; if something similar had happened to a normal member of the public, the MSM wouldn&#8217;t give a toss.  </p>
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		<title>By: Ron Brick</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2008/11/a-sinister-deve/#comment-179579</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Brick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Nov 2008 19:51:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=12078#comment-179579</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Perhaps the government is sensitive because &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1089711/Massacre-Mumbai-Up-SEVEN-gunmen-British-came-area-7-7-bombers.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; a number of the terrorists are British born.&lt;/a&gt; Whoops,that&#039;s fucked the multiculti open borders poliy of ZanuLabour.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps the government is sensitive because <a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1089711/Massacre-Mumbai-Up-SEVEN-gunmen-British-came-area-7-7-bombers.html" rel="nofollow"> a number of the terrorists are British born.</a> Whoops,that&#8217;s fucked the multiculti open borders poliy of ZanuLabour.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian B</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2008/11/a-sinister-deve/#comment-179578</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Nov 2008 19:09:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=12078#comment-179578</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;What appears to be a quite obscure common law offence is being used increasingly in ways that I find troubling.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

As &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cse.dmu.ac.uk/~mward/gkc/books/Eugenics.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;G.K. Chesterton said...&lt;/a&gt;

&quot;I had thought of calling the next sort of superficial people the Idealists; but I think this implies a humility towards impersonal good they hardly show; so I call them the Autocrats. They are those who give us generally to understand that every modern reform will &quot;work&quot; all right, because they will be there to see. Where they will be, and for how long, they do not explain very clearly. I do not mind their looking forward to numberless lives in succession; for that is the shadow of a human or divine hope. But even a theosophist does not expect to be a vast number of people at once. And these people most certainly propose to be responsible for a whole movement after it has left their hands. Each man promises to be about a thousand policemen. If you ask them how this or that will work, they will answer, &quot;Oh, I would certainly insist on this&quot;; or &quot;I would never go so far as that&quot;; as if they could return to this earth and do what no ghost has ever done quite successfully --- force men to forsake their sins. Of these it is enough to say that they do not understand the nature of a law any more than the nature of a dog. If you let loose a law, it will do as a dog does. It will obey its own nature, not yours. Such sense as you have put into the law (or the dog) will be fulfilled. But you will not be able to fulfill a fragment of anything you have forgotten to put into it.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>What appears to be a quite obscure common law offence is being used increasingly in ways that I find troubling.</p></blockquote>
<p>As <a href="http://www.cse.dmu.ac.uk/~mward/gkc/books/Eugenics.html" rel="nofollow">G.K. Chesterton said&#8230;</a></p>
<p>&#8220;I had thought of calling the next sort of superficial people the Idealists; but I think this implies a humility towards impersonal good they hardly show; so I call them the Autocrats. They are those who give us generally to understand that every modern reform will &#8220;work&#8221; all right, because they will be there to see. Where they will be, and for how long, they do not explain very clearly. I do not mind their looking forward to numberless lives in succession; for that is the shadow of a human or divine hope. But even a theosophist does not expect to be a vast number of people at once. And these people most certainly propose to be responsible for a whole movement after it has left their hands. Each man promises to be about a thousand policemen. If you ask them how this or that will work, they will answer, &#8220;Oh, I would certainly insist on this&#8221;; or &#8220;I would never go so far as that&#8221;; as if they could return to this earth and do what no ghost has ever done quite successfully &#8212; force men to forsake their sins. Of these it is enough to say that they do not understand the nature of a law any more than the nature of a dog. If you let loose a law, it will do as a dog does. It will obey its own nature, not yours. Such sense as you have put into the law (or the dog) will be fulfilled. But you will not be able to fulfill a fragment of anything you have forgotten to put into it.&#8221;</p>
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