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	<title>Comments on: A strangeness of Russians</title>
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	<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2007/05/a-strangeness-o/</link>
	<description>A blog for people with a critically rational individualist perspective</description>
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		<title>By: Paul Marks</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2007/05/a-strangeness-o/#comment-143743</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Marks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jun 2007 00:23:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=10392#comment-143743</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry Nick.

Why did I type &quot;special&quot; not &quot;secret&quot;?

Still there is no reason for you to know - as I do not.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry Nick.</p>
<p>Why did I type &#8220;special&#8221; not &#8220;secret&#8221;?</p>
<p>Still there is no reason for you to know &#8211; as I do not.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick M</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2007/05/a-strangeness-o/#comment-143742</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jun 2007 08:54:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=10392#comment-143742</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m with H Lime and others here.

Anybody who saw Ivanov&#039;s performance in the UN in the pre-war Iraq debate when he wittered on and on about how Russia had always been a lawful, peace-loving nation and respector of international law etc ad nauseum must be aware that the Putin regime will tell the most outrageous porkies.

I have quite frankly never seen a more brazen display. 

And Sergei Ivanov is Putin&#039;s annointed succesor. He is by all accounts an even bigger bastard than his boss and even more narrowly nationalistic. No wonder that the Poles and Czechs were so keen to join NATO...

Paul,
I agree with your analysis. &quot;high profile&quot; and &quot;spy&quot; form an oxymoron. But, I&#039;ll pick one nit. It&#039;s the &quot;secret&quot;  intelligence service, not &quot;special&quot;. I suppose that strengthens your argument even more.  

Am I the only one who after years of saying &quot;Russian&quot; finds myself going back to using &quot;Soviet&quot;? ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with H Lime and others here.</p>
<p>Anybody who saw Ivanov&#8217;s performance in the UN in the pre-war Iraq debate when he wittered on and on about how Russia had always been a lawful, peace-loving nation and respector of international law etc ad nauseum must be aware that the Putin regime will tell the most outrageous porkies.</p>
<p>I have quite frankly never seen a more brazen display. </p>
<p>And Sergei Ivanov is Putin&#8217;s annointed succesor. He is by all accounts an even bigger bastard than his boss and even more narrowly nationalistic. No wonder that the Poles and Czechs were so keen to join NATO&#8230;</p>
<p>Paul,<br />
I agree with your analysis. &#8220;high profile&#8221; and &#8220;spy&#8221; form an oxymoron. But, I&#8217;ll pick one nit. It&#8217;s the &#8220;secret&#8221;  intelligence service, not &#8220;special&#8221;. I suppose that strengthens your argument even more.  </p>
<p>Am I the only one who after years of saying &#8220;Russian&#8221; finds myself going back to using &#8220;Soviet&#8221;? </p>
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		<title>By: Alisa</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2007/05/a-strangeness-o/#comment-143741</link>
		<dc:creator>Alisa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2007 18:36:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=10392#comment-143741</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think Sigivald&#039;s version makes the most sense.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Sigivald&#8217;s version makes the most sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Marks</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2007/05/a-strangeness-o/#comment-143740</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Marks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2007 18:18:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=10392#comment-143740</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is some confusion in the reporting - both in the United Kingdom and in the United States.

Litvinenko was never a &quot;spy&quot;, he was in the domestic arm of the F.S.B. investigating corruption.

To try and put it in American terms he was like an F.B.I. man assigned to investigating dodgy goings among politicians and administrators.

M.I.6. (or, to use the other name, the Special Intelligence Service) might be interested in such a man WHEN HE WAS IN POST.

However, on finding out all sorts of nasty things (for example about the Chechen war) L. made lots of noise in Russia and then (when it became clear there was no way of bringing Putin and co to justice in Russia - indeed if he stayed he would join all the journalists and others that Mr Putin has simply had murdered for finding out nasty things about his doings) came over here to Britain (where he continued to complain and other such).

The intelligence value AS AN AGENT of an exile who is openly hostile to his government is ZERO.

Certainly he may be asked questions about information he may have - but as he was talking and writing about this all the time even asking him questions may not be bothered with.

As for him being a agent of M.I.6. - I point out again that he would be last type of person that any Western intelligence ageny would choose. Well known exile, openly hostile to Putin regime. Operational usefulness - zero.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is some confusion in the reporting &#8211; both in the United Kingdom and in the United States.</p>
<p>Litvinenko was never a &#8220;spy&#8221;, he was in the domestic arm of the F.S.B. investigating corruption.</p>
<p>To try and put it in American terms he was like an F.B.I. man assigned to investigating dodgy goings among politicians and administrators.</p>
<p>M.I.6. (or, to use the other name, the Special Intelligence Service) might be interested in such a man WHEN HE WAS IN POST.</p>
<p>However, on finding out all sorts of nasty things (for example about the Chechen war) L. made lots of noise in Russia and then (when it became clear there was no way of bringing Putin and co to justice in Russia &#8211; indeed if he stayed he would join all the journalists and others that Mr Putin has simply had murdered for finding out nasty things about his doings) came over here to Britain (where he continued to complain and other such).</p>
<p>The intelligence value AS AN AGENT of an exile who is openly hostile to his government is ZERO.</p>
<p>Certainly he may be asked questions about information he may have &#8211; but as he was talking and writing about this all the time even asking him questions may not be bothered with.</p>
<p>As for him being a agent of M.I.6. &#8211; I point out again that he would be last type of person that any Western intelligence ageny would choose. Well known exile, openly hostile to Putin regime. Operational usefulness &#8211; zero.</p>
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		<title>By: Sigivald</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2007/05/a-strangeness-o/#comment-143739</link>
		<dc:creator>Sigivald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:55:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=10392#comment-143739</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To me, it sounds more like &quot;Sure, Russian State Security killed him, but not because he was critical of President Putin, rather because he was a double agent. You&#039;ve seen spy movies, we all know double agents are fair game for assassination. This wasn&#039;t about silencing a critic, just standard Spy Stuff.&quot;

The idea being, perhaps, not to deny the murder but to present a less offensive motive?

(Or Lugavoi&#039;s just pimping a book deal.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To me, it sounds more like &#8220;Sure, Russian State Security killed him, but not because he was critical of President Putin, rather because he was a double agent. You&#8217;ve seen spy movies, we all know double agents are fair game for assassination. This wasn&#8217;t about silencing a critic, just standard Spy Stuff.&#8221;</p>
<p>The idea being, perhaps, not to deny the murder but to present a less offensive motive?</p>
<p>(Or Lugavoi&#8217;s just pimping a book deal.)</p>
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		<title>By: Perry de Havilland</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2007/05/a-strangeness-o/#comment-143738</link>
		<dc:creator>Perry de Havilland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2007 16:24:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=10392#comment-143738</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[IanP, in what way should the actions of our spooks be aired?  If they were indeed trying to recruit a Russian spy (which Lugovoi clearly is) to work for our side, is that not what we pay them for?  It obviously did not work but I cannot fault them for trying.

Surely we should be disturbed if MI6 was &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; taking action to build up assets against a very obviously dangerous and hostile government (i.e. the Kremlin) that things nothing of brazenly murdering people in the UK.  ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IanP, in what way should the actions of our spooks be aired?  If they were indeed trying to recruit a Russian spy (which Lugovoi clearly is) to work for our side, is that not what we pay them for?  It obviously did not work but I cannot fault them for trying.</p>
<p>Surely we should be disturbed if MI6 was <em>not</em> taking action to build up assets against a very obviously dangerous and hostile government (i.e. the Kremlin) that things nothing of brazenly murdering people in the UK.  </p>
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		<title>By: H Lime</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2007/05/a-strangeness-o/#comment-143737</link>
		<dc:creator>H Lime</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2007 15:03:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=10392#comment-143737</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Old CIA director Porter Goss advised the same line: &quot;Admit nothing, deny everything and make counteraccusations.&quot;  Freeman&#039;s right, there&#039;s nothing here but the expected--and Putin himself frequently follows up smears on Russia by outlandish speeches fingering the accusing countries.

Of course the accusations against you Brits are absurd.  It&#039;s nearly as shut a case as the O.J. case was here in the States.  We simply don&#039;t have the acquittal, which the Russians accomplish by denying your investigators the ability to interrogate the necessary subjects.  Instead, the Russkies are parroting Renault, but much more nastily: &quot;We&#039;ll round up the usual suspects.  Don&#039;t you worry about it.&quot;

H Lime]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Old CIA director Porter Goss advised the same line: &#8220;Admit nothing, deny everything and make counteraccusations.&#8221;  Freeman&#8217;s right, there&#8217;s nothing here but the expected&#8211;and Putin himself frequently follows up smears on Russia by outlandish speeches fingering the accusing countries.</p>
<p>Of course the accusations against you Brits are absurd.  It&#8217;s nearly as shut a case as the O.J. case was here in the States.  We simply don&#8217;t have the acquittal, which the Russians accomplish by denying your investigators the ability to interrogate the necessary subjects.  Instead, the Russkies are parroting Renault, but much more nastily: &#8220;We&#8217;ll round up the usual suspects.  Don&#8217;t you worry about it.&#8221;</p>
<p>H Lime</p>
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		<title>By: Phil A</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2007/05/a-strangeness-o/#comment-143736</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2007 07:48:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=10392#comment-143736</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I doubt they&#8217;ll kill Lugavoi unless he becomes a liability, as they will already know exactly what really happened unless they have amnesia.

His line may conceivably have a certain plausibility to Russian ears (or it could be a domestic message of some sort), being familiar with the workings of the Russian body politic, but is unlikely to have much mileage in it outside.

What surprised me is he missed out trying to implicate the Duke of Edinburgh ;-)

Maybe if Putin decides Lugavoi needs to become less able to, as they say, make like a birdie, they&#8217;ll go with that angle to cover that.
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I doubt they&rsquo;ll kill Lugavoi unless he becomes a liability, as they will already know exactly what really happened unless they have amnesia.</p>
<p>His line may conceivably have a certain plausibility to Russian ears (or it could be a domestic message of some sort), being familiar with the workings of the Russian body politic, but is unlikely to have much mileage in it outside.</p>
<p>What surprised me is he missed out trying to implicate the Duke of Edinburgh <img src='http://www.samizdata.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Maybe if Putin decides Lugavoi needs to become less able to, as they say, make like a birdie, they&rsquo;ll go with that angle to cover that.</p>
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		<title>By: nick g.</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2007/05/a-strangeness-o/#comment-143735</link>
		<dc:creator>nick g.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2007 06:16:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=10392#comment-143735</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Maybe this is mainly for domestic consumption, as the above commenter noted, so that the average Russian in the street will think, &quot;But if we did do it, he deserved it anyway!&quot; If he had any links at all, no matter how tenuous, to any element of British Intelligence, that might be game, set, and match, as far as the average Russian is concerned.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe this is mainly for domestic consumption, as the above commenter noted, so that the average Russian in the street will think, &#8220;But if we did do it, he deserved it anyway!&#8221; If he had any links at all, no matter how tenuous, to any element of British Intelligence, that might be game, set, and match, as far as the average Russian is concerned.</p>
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		<title>By: guy herbert</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2007/05/a-strangeness-o/#comment-143734</link>
		<dc:creator>guy herbert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2007 05:43:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=10392#comment-143734</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What I suspect you are missing Perry is that this is framed  as both denial and justification. &quot;Of course I didn&#039;t kill him ;) But he was working for British intelligence, so of course it was a good thing someone did.&quot;

The literal translation &#039;British Special Services&#039; was used on the report I saw.  What I also noted was the same accusation leveled at Berezovsky, implying Boris should get more bodyguards.

The mode of discourse is a conspiracy-theoretical one in which all dissidents are pawns of foreign enemies of the state, traitors who deserve anything that happens to them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I suspect you are missing Perry is that this is framed  as both denial and justification. &#8220;Of course I didn&#8217;t kill him <img src='http://www.samizdata.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />  But he was working for British intelligence, so of course it was a good thing someone did.&#8221;</p>
<p>The literal translation &#8216;British Special Services&#8217; was used on the report I saw.  What I also noted was the same accusation leveled at Berezovsky, implying Boris should get more bodyguards.</p>
<p>The mode of discourse is a conspiracy-theoretical one in which all dissidents are pawns of foreign enemies of the state, traitors who deserve anything that happens to them.</p>
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		<title>By: Sunfish</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2007/05/a-strangeness-o/#comment-143733</link>
		<dc:creator>Sunfish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2007 03:30:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=10392#comment-143733</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;As to the murder itself, I am of the view that it was probably Kremlin instigated, if not by Putin himself, certainly by one of the many factions working within either the Kremlin or the Duma.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

..who had access to nuclear bomb triggers. Po-210 in quantities useful as a weapon does not grow in the tomato patch. This is a killing that says &quot;I have access to exotic materials and I want to make an example of you.&quot; Not many people have either means or motive to make quite that statement.

As for the accusation that James Bond did it...that&#039;s not quite as silly as the notion that George W. Bush made Hollywood release 300 to insult Iran. It&#039;s close, though.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>As to the murder itself, I am of the view that it was probably Kremlin instigated, if not by Putin himself, certainly by one of the many factions working within either the Kremlin or the Duma.</p></blockquote>
<p>..who had access to nuclear bomb triggers. Po-210 in quantities useful as a weapon does not grow in the tomato patch. This is a killing that says &#8220;I have access to exotic materials and I want to make an example of you.&#8221; Not many people have either means or motive to make quite that statement.</p>
<p>As for the accusation that James Bond did it&#8230;that&#8217;s not quite as silly as the notion that George W. Bush made Hollywood release 300 to insult Iran. It&#8217;s close, though.</p>
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		<title>By: IanP</title>
		<link>http://www.samizdata.net/2007/05/a-strangeness-o/#comment-143732</link>
		<dc:creator>IanP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2007 23:35:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://192.168.200.139/?p=10392#comment-143732</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Perry,

I am not suggesting for one minute that MI6 or any other British agency were responsible for the death of Litvinenko.

What has however surfaced in Lukavoi&#039;s press conference is the involvement of British services.

It is that involvement that I feel needs to be aired.

As to the murder itself, I am of the view that it was probably Kremlin instigated, if not by Putin himself, certainly by one of the many factions working within either the Kremlin or the Duma.

]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perry,</p>
<p>I am not suggesting for one minute that MI6 or any other British agency were responsible for the death of Litvinenko.</p>
<p>What has however surfaced in Lukavoi&#8217;s press conference is the involvement of British services.</p>
<p>It is that involvement that I feel needs to be aired.</p>
<p>As to the murder itself, I am of the view that it was probably Kremlin instigated, if not by Putin himself, certainly by one of the many factions working within either the Kremlin or the Duma.</p>
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