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The ‘Satanic Cartoons’

I have written a couple of times before about the very useful cultural confrontation with intolerant Muslims that occurred when Danish newspaper Jyllands Posten published some less than flattering cartoons featuring the Prophet Mohammed.

Well in case you are curious what those cartoons actually looked like, here they are (sorry, but I do not have a larger version and the original link no longer works):

Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_drawings.jpg

If Salman Rushdie wrote the ‘Satanic Verses’ and incurred the ire of the moonbat faction of Islam, I guess the Jyllands Posten publication must be the ‘Satanic Cartoons’.

Here is a link that shows the cartoons more clearly so you can see what all the fuss is about.

702 comments to The ‘Satanic Cartoons’

  • Mike James

    Whatever puts bees in those savages’ pantyhose suits me to a T.

  • As usual, the UN is sucking up to islamofascist countries who want this stopped. The usual cultural relativism. Bah!

    Anders Fogh’s comment to 11 muslim ambassadors, who had come to Denmark to demand action, was priceless. He simply said “in Denmark we have freedom of press” and refused to meet with them. Cojones!

  • Verity

    Scanian Redneck – The Danish prime minister’s name is Anders Fogh Rasmussen. He told them he had no control over the press and nor did he want such control. For such a bunch of control freaks, his words must have been baffling. They’re probably still trying to figure it out.

  • The best bit is I only found two of them in the slightest funny and that was stretching it. The rest were not worth bothering about at all. Whoever is complaining about these needs to get a life.

    On the other hand it was worth seeing what all the fuss is about.

  • Verity

    Dave Petterson says flippantly, and somewhat tritely, “Whoever is complaining about these needs to get a life.”

    Surely you are aware that it is the Muslim “leaders” and foreign ambassadors who are complaining, about this. Death threats have been issued to the editor of the newspaper, as is their wont. In case you missed it, in Islam, they’re not allowed to depict Mohammad for some unknown reason – and these primitives are trying to impose their desert, tribal rules on the civilised world. The Danes have resisted. The Muslims then had an international Islamic conference about the “problem”. Then they got the UN involved in sovereign Denmark’s free press. Bravely, the Danes have held their ground.

  • Julian Morrison

    Number 7 is my favourite.

  • Susan

    They don’t allow pictures of Mo or other “prophets” because they are afraid the images will be worshipped as idols. Worshipping an “idol” is just about the worst thing that one can do in Islam.

    Go figure.

  • Verity

    Susan – Do they allow images of Aisha, the big Mo’s 6-year old bride? Or was she a prophet, and thus exempt from the image problem?

  • guy herbert

    Perspective again: This isn’t just a peculiarity of Islam. Iconoclasm is a strong tradition in Judaism and Christianity, too. From the legend of the Golden Calf on, it has gone in waves. Though you do see representational art in synagogues, abstraction is strongly favoured, and pictures of God are definitely taboo in a relgious context.

    Iconoclastic fervour also accounts for the pitiful, gutted state of many Anglican churches in England, vandalised at the Reformation or during the Civil War, and for the sparse, bare boxes preferred as places of worship by a variety of Protestant sects.

    Not worshipping idols was how the Jews in particular distinguished themselves from other ancient eastern cultures, and this feature was consciously or unconsciously copied by Muhammad when setting Islam apart from the folk religions of Arabia. There is, however, a tradition in which he had an image of the virgin and child preserved when other idols found in the Kaaba were destroyed.

    Pushy clerics looking to bolster their power by arousing communal anger should be firmly told to get lost without further comment, just as the Danish government has done. Sad to say, the UK’s line in the Satanic Verses affair–which started as a piece of communitarian dirty politics in India–was a bit more equivocal.

    Here lies the problem: A “multiculturist” cringe, where obeisance is paid to abstractly defined groups who shout loudly or who might complain of racism, will find thugs to exploit it, internally or internationally. Picking out some abstractly defined groups (as opposed to pernicious practices) as especially dangerous gives comfort to two sets of thugs: the self-selected community-leaders those groups are then encouraged to turn to, and the spiritual heirs of Adolf who recycle propaganda among themselves and spread the herd-poison.

    If we want an enlightened individualist society rather than to regress into brutish tribalism, then we should neither recognise group claims, nor in the public sphere attribute group characteristics to individuals.

  • fooltomery

    Raise your lamp high, Diogenes, and help us find an artist courageous enough to produce and exhibit a “Piss Muhammed”.

  • Verity

    I couldn’t care less about the superstitions of a bunch of primitives living in caves and sand pits, but what is important is, Mr Rasmussen brought Western enlightenment and rationality to the non-issue by refusing to engage with these individuals. Tony Blair would have held meetings with the Muslim Council and “community leaders” and then agreed to put a law in place forbidding pix of their prophet. Mr Rasmussen and Flemming Rose, the editor who commissioned the illustrations, stood calmly and firmly for Western values.

    These whiners are the same people who complain of American cultural imperialism because people like Coke and Starbucks. There is no more rigid, aggressive, ignorant bunch of cultural imperialists in the world than Muslims who, as a group, are intent on forcing their preposterous beliefs on the rest of the world. Give me Starbucks any day.

  • Using stripcreator.com and Kaddar – Arabian character, you can easily make your own Mohammed cartoons.

    Fun for the whole family. Until the Muslims come to behead you all in an orgy of blood and retribution.

  • Moany Lisa

    Verity, do you have your own blog? I love your comments and think you should start a blog. Happy Christmukkah!

  • Verity

    Moany Lisa – Thank you and no, I don’t have a blog. I find there are enough entertaining subjects on Samizdata. I do occasionally blog over on the Anglosphere, but I’ve been otherwise occupied for most of this month.

  • GF

    Yeah, who cares about Guy Herbert’s salient, thoughtful and informative comment? Let’s just bash Muslims because, well, we can. It’s what this blog is about, after all.

    Sickening. The actions of many, many Muslims is disgraceful, and has to change, but to call them “a bunch of primitives living in caves and sand pits” is reflective of immense anti-intellectualism. Would you apply the same epithet to your own ancestors, Verity, perhaps barring swapping sand pits for bogs?

  • Winzeler

    is reflective of immense anti-intellectualism.

    Or it’s reflective of a sense of humor in a person who also happens to be frustrated with the trend toward islamic imperialism.

  • Welcome back, Winzeler! Haven’t seen you around for a while (I used to comment under the nom de plume “I’m Suffering For My Art”). However, I am currently enjoying Christmas in south western China and haven’t been online much, so I may have missed your commenting over the last month or so. Merry Christmas regardless, and it’s good to have you back. Merry Christmas to the rest of the Samizdatistas and commentariat.

  • Verity

    James Waterton – How nice to hear from you! I’ll never forget that moment when you strode onto the stage and unmasked Bollo! “J’accuse!” One of the great moments in Blogdom.

    How is China?

  • What’s up GF, didn’t you get the Junior Jihadi Martyrdom Kit in your Christmas Stocking?
    Never mind,take the training wheels off your bike and go for a spin.

  • Susan

    Susan – Do they allow images of Aisha, the big Mo’s 6-year old bride? Or was she a prophet, and thus exempt from the image problem?

    No, they do not allow images of Aisha or other family members of Mo either. Note this is in Sunni tradition; the Shiites do allow two-dimensional images — but not sculptures — of the prophet’s family. They mostly like to depict his cousin and son-in-law, Ali bin Abi Talib, whom they consider a sort of great saint, next only in reverence to Mohammed himself. They would probably not concern themselves with portraits of Aisha, whom Shiites blame for the death of Ali.

    Shiite portraits of Ali look very much like Catholic portraits of Jesus BTW. They even put halos around his head etc.

    Happy Christmas/winter solstice/Hanukkah to all at Samizdata!

  • Winzeler

    Suffering, I haven’t been around much this year. I’ve been getting rid of one business and trying to work my way into another. Merry Christmas to you to.

  • Verity

    Back atcha, Susan. I have enjoyed your informed and informative comments throughout the year. And some of the funny thoughts you have posted on Biased BBC.

    Have a happy Christmas and a good New year.

  • Gengee

    This is not striclly, not even remotely really, related to the topic, at least the fundamentalist bashing part of it, but it does bear on civil liberties which was the other byline.

    Civil Liberties / Regulation

    I read an article in the Telegraph, thought crimes for children.

    Another nail in the coffin ? or a justifiable method of reducing the delinquency of the nation ?

    Later

    Gengee

  • Verity

    It disturbs me that people have allowed themselves, through ignorance, to have their opinion formed by the BBC (and the MSM in the US). Gengee refers to “fundamentalists”. Doubtless he also refers to suicide bombers in Israel as “Palestinian militants” and the whackos who lopped off the heads of three Christian girls walking to school as “insurgents in Indonesia”. Other acceptable terms are “in an incident involving people of Middle Eastern or Mediterranean appearance”. Can you spot the missing word?

    This is how the left wants you to view aggressive, violent Islam. Islam is a political, warrior philosophy and its point is conquest. It is overwhelmingly young men who carry out acts of mass murder and suicide, but they are encouraged in this by a vast international and domestic structure of older men who do the organising, the training and run the supply lines. The structure of Islam, run by older males and executed by younger, very stupid males hungry for glory is geared to conquest.

    Although most Islamics would not commit mass murder and suicide themselves, that does not mean that they do not approve of the warriors who do. Even the ones who don’t really think it’s a good idea do not positively disapprove. (Yes, yes, I know there are some, although very few, given the enormous Islamic population of the world, who sincerely hate the current 30-year war of terrorism. The King of Jordan is one.)

    These mass murdering and maiming suicidees are not acting alone. They are acting with the approval, tacit or otherwise, of most of their society.

    The BBC is soothing you with non-threatening terms. It has its own agenda.

  • Dangerfield

    I see that Islamaphobia rules okay under the name of truth.

  • Ed T

    I’ve got this idea for a ‘Satanic Cartoon’, but given that I can’t draw worth a damn you’ll have to content yourselves with a description of it.

    Picture this – Mohammed, looking bit shame-faced, in handcuffs in a station of the Greater Mecca Police. The desk sergeant is leaning over, wagging his finger sternly and saying “I don’t care if you are the Prophet of the One True God, matey. You’re on the ‘Register’ for dipping your wick in a minor, therefore you will report to my nick every Friday. And let’s have none of this nonsense about you being at ‘prayers’.

    There. Think that’s enough to earn me a fatwa or three?

    And before anyone hurls accusation of muslim-bashing, all I’m doing is illustrating some of the absurdity of the so-called ‘religion of peace’. Consider this: in muslim eyes the Qu’ran is the unreconstructed word of God – the unalloyed truth. Therefore, Mohammed did in truth marry and have sex with a child. Given that Mo’ is the most holy figure in the Qu’ran (God notwithstanding) it’s reasonable to assume that muslims condone (I’ll not go so far as to accuse them of approving of) pedarasty. Simple logic otherwise Mohammed would not be venerated in the way he is.

    Of course, if muslims condemn sexual acts with children then they must surely condemn their prophet. Again, simple logic. OK, muslims could turn round and say ‘Ah yes, but Mohammed was commanded by God’. This begs the question is saying ‘Gold told me to’ be a viable defence for kiddie-fiddling in Islamic countries? I would love to see this issue debated in a high profile public forum (I mean in addition to this hallowed ground!), but of course it won’t be. The multi-culti conspiracy of silence will see to that.

    Oh well, at least we can vent our spleens to each other.

    Hope those of you who keep Christmas had a good one.

    Cheers

    Ed

  • Denise

    Ed T

    I would LOVE to see a cartoon like that!

    I hope everyone had a nice Christmas.

  • Verity

    Or you could do Mo up on a stage and dressed like Gary Glitter.

  • Verity

    Actually, though, maybe not. I don’t think Gary Glitter’s been accused of molesting anyone of nine. They all seem to have been around 11.

  • Ed T

    So, on that basis Gary Glitter would be no good as the prophet of a world-wide Abrahamic religion?

    Doh! I succumbed to the opportunity to poke fun at Islam. Oh well, don’t think I’ll lose much sleep over it.

    Ed

  • I see that Islamaphobia rules okay under the name of truth.

    Yes, I am Islamo-phobic. I am also Nazi-phobic, Communist-phobic, Racist-phobic, Stupidity-phobic, etc. etc.

    Is that a problem for you?

  • Verity

    What Perry said. All those things.

  • I am -phobic of nothing since all my fears are rational and quite thought out thank you very much.

    Islamists are the greatest threat to world peace and the safety of all of us…of this I am in doubt.

  • Verity

    I see that in the HQ of the religion of peace, Saudi Arabia, a judge has sentenced a migrant Indian worker to have an eye gouged out.

    He was a petrol station attendant (Saudis don’t want to work as petrol station attendants) and there was a disagreement with a customer about payment. The Indian tackled him, a fight ensued and the fellow apparently later lost the sight of an eye. The Indian says the eye injury was self-inflicted as the fellow had picked a fight with him. That’s just how these religion of peace adherents settle their differences, especially with inconsequential low rent Indian immigrants who leave their homes to work in laid back Saudi Arabia to support their families back in India.

    The Indian government has sent a “mercy petititon” asking that their overseas Indian worker be spared his eye.

  • Interesting about the Indian worker in Saudi. I suppose he must have been a Muslim. Or was what I heard about the Saudis not admitting Hindus or Buddhists on religious grounds wrong? Imagine the uproar if an Islamic terrorist who caused an innocent Muslim civilian to lose an eye was deprived of an eye at Guantanamo! The Saudis would condemn it as an attack on Islam.

  • Verity

    Robert Spiers – I think your information is incorrect. There are a lot of Filippinas working as maids, as I understand it, and they are overwhelmingly Christian. A lot of men and women from Sri Lanka as well, although they do have Muslims in Sri Lanka and they may be Muslim. The also import Indonesians, because they are, by and large, Muslim.

    I don’t think there’s any particular veto on Hindus or Buddhists. I could be wrong, but surely they need people to keep the country running – as in petrol stations – during five-times-a-day prayers? And all day Fridays?

    Incidentally, I forgot to note that I read the original, longer, piece on Little Green Footballs.

  • Verity

    I hope I won’t disturb anyone if I SCREAM but I have just seen this (Link) about the publication of the cartoons and the Danish Prime Minister, and if I were living in the EU, I would gnaw my own leg off to get out.

    “Franco Frattini, the Deputy EU commissioner for Justice, Freedom, and Security, (oh, pulleeeeeze) noting the publication as “foolishness and indiscretion” condemned the cartoons Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rassmussen backed up on the grounds of “freedom of speech and thought”.

    “Such publications, Frattini emphasized, will serve to radicalism by fomenting hostility against Islam and foreigners. ”

    This unelected invertebrate has crawled out of his putrid pond to condemn a brave elected leader of a very brave country. He has declared that Mr Rasmussen “used freedom of the press as an excuse”. He added that the “the media is not free to make a news story out of anything”. There is a large iguana who takes the sun on my wall who has more brains in his lizard head than this pre-Ice Age lump of primitive algae and probably has a better developed sense of honour.

    Something smells rotten and it certainly isn’t in the state of Denmark. If you go to the link, have some tissues handy for wiping the foam off your monitor.

  • jdm

    Unless I miss my guess, Frattini is not Danish. His comments seem to me to be somewhat hostile towards Danes. So, isn’t he also fomenting hostility towards Danes (ie, foreigners)?

  • miep

    If anyone agrees with the freedom of publication of the cartoons about Mohammed why don’t you give a support mail to the Jyllands Posten newspaper, e.g. mailaddress jp@jp.dk

  • I have copied the drawings of Prophet Mohammed to my hard drive & will post them everywhere I possibly can, to attempt to spread freedom of the press & more importantly, freedom of thought. Christians are occasionally offended by this, but at least we do not organize death threats & offer rewards for killing. Since others are attempting to forcefully censor what I can view, or even draw myself, I resist their censorship efforts with all the fanaticism of every man who ever died in the name of freedom! FREEDOM!

  • Soldier of Allah

    May Allah give you all what you deserve!
    You fear what the muslims will do to you, verily you should fear what Allah will do to you, for he is All Merciful but he is also harsh in his punishment. I suggest you repent before it is too late.

  • May Allah give you all what you deserve!

    I rather doubt we are going to be given what we deserve by some figment of your imagination.

    You fear what the muslims will do to you, verily you should fear what Allah will do to you, for he is All Merciful but he is also harsh in his punishment. I suggest you repent before it is too late.

    But that said, thanks for confirming all the stereotypes and eloquently making the point that there can be no accomodation with people who respond to everything with mindless anti-intellectual religious slogans.

  • Bernhard

    I think few people will deny that a fair number of people with an islamic faith have terrible ideas. The same is true for a fair number of Christians, Hindus etc., too. However, we should respect the fact that some people do have religous beliefs. I am quite amazed at the amount of brainless bashing that takes place here by people who claim to be enlightened, rational and so forth. Call me a sissy, but PEACE is the answer!

  • linzi

    For all those who call this freedom of speech are a bunch of losers! This is insulting other religions. If it was Jesus that was in the pictures im sure christians will be as upset as well. These are prophets that u are making fun of.. Whoever is responsible for this will be punished in hell.. TRUST ME!!

  • we should respect the fact that some people do have religous beliefs. I am quite amazed at the amount of brainless bashing that takes place here by people who claim to be enlightened, rational and so forth. Call me a sissy, but PEACE is the answer!

    But Bernhard, freedom of speech means NOT having to ‘respect’ points of view we disagree with. Yes, some people do have religious beliefs and I respect their right to hold those beliefs (i.e. I tolerate them), but that is not the same as respecting those beliefs themselves. People have a right to demand tolerance from me, they have no right to demand acceptance and agreement or silence from me.

    Tell me, people also have racist beliefs, communist beliefs, fascist beliefs… I respect people’s right to hold absurd views abut I have no hesitation poking fun at people who hold those views. Are you suggesting otherwise?

    And also tell me, if pease is the answer, what do you have to say to those muslims who threaten violence against the people behind Jyllands Posten? If peace is the answer, does that not also apply to Danish people experessing their views without fear of violence?

  • For all those who call this freedom of speech are a bunch of losers! This is insulting other religions.

    If it is not freedom of speech, what is it then? Are you suggesting people should only be free to say thing everyone wants to hear? What am I allowed to insult according to you? Can I insult a person’s political views? Their choises of clothing? Their grammer?

    If it was Jesus that was in the pictures im sure christians will be as upset as well. These are prophets that u are making fun of.. Whoever is responsible for this will be punished in hell.. TRUST ME!!

    Sure, some Christians would be upset, but do you think they would be calling for the Danish government, rather than ‘God’, to punish them? Somehow I do not think so. Feel free to call for them to be punished in ‘hell’, but how do you respond to those muslims who think Jyllands Posten should be ‘punished’ in this world? What are your views about that? Is that ok with you?

  • Jayne

    Well, the link to the cartoons doesn’t seem to work at all. Any other sites for them? Thanks.

    Any information on how to support the Danish paper would be useful too.

    Go free-speechers! Without freedom of speech, what freedom do we have?

  • mohammed

    Peace be upon those who follow the true guidance:

    I have reviewed what some of the news agencies dealt with concerning the Danish news agency Jyllands-Posten had published, which I believe it to be a heinous mistake and dreadful deviation from the path of justice, reverence and equality. The said agency published 12 cartoon caricatures on the 30th of September, 2005, ridiculing Mohammed , the messenger of Islam. One of these cartoons pictures Allah’s Messenger PBUH, wearing a turban that resembles a bomb wrapped around his head. What a pathetic projection!

    I was extremely saddened to read such news.
    I personally visited the site of the agency on the net.
    I examined the size of the blundering scandal it was. On Sept 29th, 2005 issue of , Jyllands-Posten, I saw and read dreadful news and cartoons.
    The news and the cartoons were horrifying and extremely disturbing to me.

    I believe al Muslims who read, viewed or learned about this news were equally saddened, disappointed and disturbed. All criticized such work and felt awful and dismayed about it. Similarly, I do believe that all sane and wise people, I believe, would feel the same about it.

    The contemporary world is witnessing today great much confusion all over. Innocent blood is being shed. Innocent lives are being harvested by oppression and transgression. We are in utmost need to spread peace, justice and love all over the world. We need to call for the respect and reverence of all Divine and heavenly Messages and Scriptures. By doing so, we would be able to preserve the divine messages and demonstrate love, appreciation and reverence to the Prophets and Messengers of Allah, the Almighty to this world.
    We would further help to preserve the souls, honor and belongings of all mankind all-over-the-world. We would further demonstrate the respect and honor of the human rights all over the world.

    The claim of Jyllands-Posten newspaper that they allow, promote and practice freedom-of-speech, by publishing cartoons ridiculing Mohammed the Prophet of Islam, is a non-convincing claim. All worlds’ constitutions and international organizations insist on and demand to respect all the Prophets and Messengers of Allah, the Almighty. Moreover, they confirm the necessity to respect the Divine Messages, respect others and do not attack the privacy, dignity and honor and principles of others.

    In the International World Federation Council of media and press people, it is stated:

    ) Media people must be alert of risks that may arise as a result of prejudice and discrimination implied by the media. The Council would exert every possible effort to avoid being involved in such calls, which are based on prejudice and religion, sex or other social differences discrimination.
    A media man may commit a dangerous professional deviation such as: claiming other’s work, ill-interpretation of facts, false accusations of others, condemning others for no basis, accusing others with their integrity and honor for no sound basis or accepting bribes to either publish or prevent the publishing of specific materials.
    A noteworthy media-person should believe that it is their duty to give an honest attention to the aforementioned items, and through the general framework of the law in each country.)
    Therefore, we also base our opinion and/or statements herein on an honest and sound media proclamation requesting the Danish newspaper to apologize for what they did. The proclamations states: “The media person would exert every possible effort to correct, modify any published information that he/she noticed that they are inaccurate and/or harmful to others.”

    Undoubtedly, what the Danish newspaper; Jyllands-Posten published is harmful not only for more than two hundred thousand Danish citizen, but also to more than one-billion-three-hundred-million Muslims along with others who are fair and just people. All these hurt people honor, respect and love Mohammed the Prophet. This action will continue to hurt and harm all Muslims so long we live on the face-of-this-earth. Denmark, if does not deal with this problem on a fair ground, will also continue to be a source of harm and convulsion to many Muslims. This is because of the mentality of some Danish individuals who are anti-prophets, messengers and divine messages.

    We would like to remind also with the decree which the Human Rights Agency in the United Nations adopted on the 12th of April, 2005. This decree insisted on the ban of distortions and vicious attacks against religions and especially Islam; which had been strongly attacked in the last few years.

  • If I ridicule something I think is ridiculous (a religion, for example), you think that is not just wrong, it is intolerable and should be prevented by force of law. Do I get the do the same to you? If some of the things you say are offensive to me, can I get the state to prevent you from expressing what you think?

    In that case, if a person takes the view that as religion as probably killed more people throughout history that other other ideology, people should be prevented from advocating religion because that is “harmful”, by your logic, why should people who think religion is nonsense tolerate your expression of religion if you will not tolerate their expression against religion? You have no right whatsoever not to be offended.

  • aymo

    it was all shit from that journalist and soon he will see how will God punish him and make him an example ..
    i cant belive they call this a freedom the denemark governement must punish that journalist and whom els did thos painting about the prophet Muhamed sala ALLAH alihe wasalam..
    i wish all muslim arround the world wake up and be such aone hand to stand &face this evil

  • mohammed

    In The Name of Allah, The Most Merciful
    The Most Kind

    Muhammad
    Prophet Muhammad was born in Makkah in the year 570. Since his father died before his birth and his mother died shortly thereafter, he was raised by his uncle who was from the respected tribe of Quraysh. He was raised illiterate, unable to read and write, and remained so till his death.His people, before his mission as a prophet, were ignorant of science and most of them were illiterate. As he grew up , he became known to be truthful, honest, trustworthy, generous, and sincere. He was so trustworthy that they called him the Trustworthy.( Narrated in Mosnad Ahmad , # 15078 ). Prophet Muhammad was very religious, and he had a long detested the decadence and idolatry of his society.

    At the age of forty, Prophet Muhammad received his first revelation from God through the Angel Gabriel. The revelations continued for twenty -three years, and they are collectively known as the Qu’ran.

    As soon as he began to recite the Qu’ran and to preach the truth which God had revealed to him , he and his small group of followers suffered presecution from unbelievers. The presecution grew so fierce that in the year 622 God gave them the command to immigrate. This emigration from Makkah to the city of Madinah,some 260 miles to the north, marks the beginning of the Muslim calendar.

    After several years, Prophet Muhammad and his followers were able to return to Makkah, where they forgave their enemies. Before Prophet Muhammad died, at the age of sixty-three, the greater part of the Arabian Peninsula had become Muslim, and within a century of his death , Islam had spread to Spain in the West and as far East as China.Among the reasons for rapid and peaceful spread of Islam was the truth and clarity of its doctrine. Islam calls for faith in only one GOD, who is the only one worthy of worship.

    The Prophet Muhammad was a perfect example of an honest, just , merciful, compassionate,truthful, and brave human being. Though he was a man , he was far removed from all evil characteristics and strove solely for teh sake of God and His reward in the Hereafter. Moreover, in all his actions and dealings , he was ever mindful and fearful of GOD

  • mohammed

    His Last Sermon
    (This Sermon was delivered on the Ninth Day of Dhul Hijjah 10 A.H in the Uranah Valley of mount Arafat )

    “O People, lend me an attentive ear, for I don’t know whether, after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying to you carefully and TAKE THIS WORDS TO THOSE WHO COULD NOT BE PRESENT HERE TODAY. O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your LORD, and that HE will indeed reckon your deeds. ALLAH has forbidden you to take usury (Interest), therefore all interest obligation shall henceforth be waived… Beware of Satan, for your safety of your religion. He has lost all hope that he will ever be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.

    O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have right over you. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and comitted helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as never to commit adultery.

    O People, listen to me in earnest, whorship ALLAH, say your five daily prayers (Salah), fast during the month of Ramadhan, and give your wealth in Zakat. Perform Hajj if you can afford to. You know that every Muslim is the brother of another Muslim. YOU ARE ALL EQUAL. NOBODY HAS SUPERIORITY OVER OTHER EXCEPT BY PIETY AND GOOD ACTION.

    Remember, one day you will appear before ALLAH and answer for your deeds. So beware, do not astray from the path of righteousness after I am gone.

    O People, NO PROPHET OR APOSTLE WILL COME AFTER ME AND NO NEW FAITH WILL BE BORN. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand my words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the QUR’AN and my example, the SUNNAH and if you follow these you will never go astray.

    All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me direcly. BE MY WITNESS O ALLAH THAT I HAVE CONVEYED YOUR MESSAGE TO YOUR PEOPLE.”

  • Mohammed: please tell me what *you* think, not what your prophet said. I really could not care less what the prophet Mohammed said. As far as I am concerned, he is just a historical figure… but I would be quite interested to hear what the commenter called mohammed thinks himself. Without quoting anyone else, explain what YOU think and why I should change my views.

    Like millions of people I am an agnostic so quoting religious texts at me is unlikely to change my mind. If I quoted the US Constitution at you, would that have much bearing on what you think? I suspect not.

  • mohammed

    In The Name of Allah, The Most Merciful
    The Most Kind

    The aim of this site is to provide clear information about ISLAM. It will tell you very quickly what ISLAM is all about. But first, ISLAM is NOT about guns and bombs. This is a major misconception. ISLAM is a very peaceful, complete way of life.

    If you ever think about your origins, or the reason for you being alive, then take a look at Islam, one of the biggest and growing religions of the world. ISLAM will rid you off your worldy worries and give you strength. To proceed, click tihs button(Link).

  • Mohammed

    it’s very simpl Ithink in all what Prophet Muhammad saids ….why? because he teels about ALLAH (GOD); not from US Constitution (Human like us)

  • Mohammed: that makes it rather hard for us to have a conversation seeing as you “think in all what the Prophet Muhammad saids” and I on the other hand regard the Prophet Muhammad as just a historical figure and I suspect that ‘God’ is just a psychological artifice.

    To me, the US Constitution was at least a partially successful attempt to use reason to improve the human condition, written by rational people I can relate to, whereas I cannot see much reason being used by people who trot out religious texts as if those are self-evident.

    I am quite a well educated guy and my refusal to accept religion as meaningful (be it Islam or any other) is not because I do not understand your religion, I do. I understand it just fine. I just do not think it makes much sense rationally and unless you can give me some astonishing perspective that I have previously missed, I am unlikely to change my mind. Feel free to try if you like but I do not rate your chances of success very highly.

  • Mohammed

    Perry de Havilland:
    1- My GOD said in The Holy QUR’AN:
    2-256. (There is no compulsion in religion. Surely the right has become distinct from error; so whosoever refuses to be led by those who transgress and believes in ALLAH, has surely grasped a strong handle which knows no breaking. And ALLAH is All-Hearing. All-Knowing).
    2- you said ” I suspect that ‘God’ is just a psychological artifice”and you also said “To me, the US Constitution was at least a partially successful attempt to use reason to improve the human condition, written by rational people I can relate to, whereas” you well make your live in this stage
    3- for me I do not have any problem for what you said” I can not see much reason being used by people who trot out religious texts as if those are self-evident.”
    4- I do not want to change your mind ,I want to explain what I think.
    5- I am very sori about my language.

  • 1- My GOD said in The Holy QUR’AN:
    2-256. (There is no compulsion in religion. Surely the right has become distinct from error; so whosoever refuses to be led by those who transgress and believes in ALLAH, has surely grasped a strong handle which knows no breaking. And ALLAH is All-Hearing. All-Knowing).

    Certainly it is irrational to use compulsion if true belief is the objective (and in fact impossible: you can compel obedience but you cannot compel belief).

    2- you said ” I suspect that ‘God’ is just a psychological artifice”and you also said “To me, the US Constitution was at least a partially successful attempt to use reason to improve the human condition, written by rational people I can relate to, whereas” you well make your live in this stage

    All things that we ‘know’ are theories. Some theories are better than others at explaining reality, but as we cannot directly perceive the totality of reality directly due to the limitations of our senses, we can only theorise about the true nature of reality. Thus to be dogmatic and refuse the possibility that a better theory can come along is very irrational indeed. In fact one of my biggest objections to Islam is the attitude to apostasy.

    That is why you are welcome to try and present a better theory about the nature of reality (for example one that assumes the existence of God as something more than a psychological construct), but my current best theory does indeed suggest ‘god’ as a man-made psychological tool. Am I certain? No, but that is what my analysis leads me to think is the best explanation.

    3- for me I do not have any problem for what you said” I can not see much reason being used by people who trot out religious texts as if those are self-evident.”
    4- I do not want to change your mind ,I want to explain what I think.

    Fair enough.

    5- I am very sori about my language.

    You are doing just fine.

  • Saleem Mohamed

    Okay – reality check.

    I’m a Muslim, and I thought the cartoons were pretty funny. I did! I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a few funny cartoons. We’re not supposed to worship idols, but I don’t see these cartoons as idol-worship. I’m not going to pin them up on my wall and pray to them…

    Shocked?

    I hate how Muslims and Persian regimes are equated by Westerners. They are not the same – there is a huge distinction and I don’t like being stereotyped as a raging mullah who wants to declare jihad every time someone pisses me off.

    I’d like to tell you that I am a free-thinking, open-minded Muslim. I love all people of the world, I don’t want to kill anybody, and I like to enjoy a good laugh every now and again. I am not a rabid fundamentalist. I am not a terrorist. I am not a barbarian. I do not, for that matter, live in a cave. (I have a nice home of my own, thank you very much…)

    I do not agree with the way so-called Islamic states are run. They oppress their people, subjugate their women, and persecute foreigners. This is not the way of Islam. Islam is about peace, is about tolerance, is about understanding. (You may not know that.) It’s sad to me that the leaders of those countries have subverted Islam to make it seem xenophobic and dangerous and evil to rational outside observers. Those people are not proper Muslims – not in my eyes. Not as I was taught.

    It’s sad to me that some misguided Muslims will issue death-threats to people because of this. It’s sad to me that Muslims are burning the Danish flag in Gaza. These people are just poorly educated. They are brainwashed to think in a certain way – and that way is not the same as Islam. They just don’t know any better.

    Please don’t lump all of us Muslims in together with these morons. Hitler was a Christian – but I would never have the cheek to say that all Christians are bad because of a few bad seeds. It’s the same with me – I have nothing but respect and love for all people of of the world – Muslim or not. That’s what I was taught, and it’s what I try to tell fellow Muslims.

    Please remember us Muslims who are trying to enlighten our people when you pass judgement upon our religion. We are fighting the good fight. We are trying to educate people whose only education is from fear-mongering mullahs who say that non-Muslims are bad and must be wiped out. They have no other education because it is kept from them, so it is all they will ever know.

    It is an uphill struggle. These beliefs are held rigidly and are not be easy to break. But it is happening. Slowly.

    With greater education will come greater tolerance.

    Just remember tht some of us Muslims do love you and care about you – whoever you are, wherever you come from, and whatever you may believe.

    Best wishes, great site
    Saleem

  • A.S.H.A

    Well, i’ve read all the comments written and i think some people do understand what Islam is and some people do NOT. If you think islam is a terrorist religion, its not, but what media show is less than tenth of one tenth of reality. Muslims are respected people, who fears no one but god. I do think disrespecting their religion and prophet means we are something important but its the opposite, we look like losers and TERRORIST.. yes terrorists! We should have respected all religions. Iam sure if Muslims disrespected Christianity or Jesus we wont say its FREEDOM! Think about it carefully and put yourself in their places and let me know what your decision or comment will be! “Think wise once in your life for god sake and dont be fool” .

  • Eli Jensen

    Being a Dane, born with the freedom of press and the freedom of speech in a democratic society, I find the reactions in the Middle East disturbing. I do not want any of my values and not even the slightest piece of freedom touched – especially not from outsiders.

    Having followed the reactions in the Middle East, I must admit that their reactions seem rather typical and narrow-minded. Forgetting that the Christian cross is in the centre of the Danish flag, they burn off not just Dannebro (the Danish flag), but the main symbol and essence of my religion; the cross! And this is supposed to be a reaction based on religious insensitivity. How can they be more insensitive than burning off, what is essentially millions of peoples symbol of the suffering of Christ?

    Furthermore, I am offended by their reactions on an internal Danish discussion, why don’t they focus on their own INTERNAL topics – they could start with caring internally about the most basic and fundamentally agreed on: the human rights. How many of the states in the middle east can even get close to the human rights standards we have in Denmark?
    They may stress that this is a religious matter. I am against religious insensitivity, but my freedom of beliefs and the values of my society, where all kind of religious topics are discussed, and where satire and caricature is an everyday part of my society, means a lot to me. I for one am not willing to give up my fundamental rights – because of some few not to good and not too bad drawings of a guy called Muhammad.

    They can stop buying the Danish products including cheese and butter, but they can’t impose their outdated and narrow minded dictations. The Danish economy is still one of the best economies in the EU, and a boycott of Danish produce in the Middle east is not going to impact more than a few companies, who should be looking for other and alternative markets. I am confident, that all this will lead to is a worse tone in the internal Danish discussions of beliefs and integration, as well as an even further growth potential for the extreme Danish national party. Is this what the muslems really want?

    Unfortunately the small group of people that make the headlines leave an image of the Muslems as a group who’s reacting with threat, they just outline low and backward societies. Is this the picture we in the Western countries are supposed to be left with? If not, then I urge other and more constructive Moslems to take up this debate and engage in a constructive discussion.

  • michael farris

    “Well, i’ve read all the comments written and i think some people do understand what Islam is and some people do NOT.”

    I don’t care what Islam is, I’m not interested one way or the other.
    I do know what freedom of the press is, something many people (including you?) do not.

    “We should have respected all religions.”

    Why?
    I feel no need to respect any religion. I respect individual people (or not, it depends on their behavior). I like and respect many (maybe most) of the Muslim people I’ve known but I don’t care about their religion one way or another.

    “Iam sure if Muslims disrespected Christianity or Jesus we wont say its FREEDOM!”

    You’re wrong. Muslims like everyone else are perfectly free to disrespect Christianity and Jesus. The overwhelming majority of (western) Christians don’t even care much. Even most those that would be most upset personally would not be in favor of censorship.

    “Think about it carefully and put yourself in their places and let me know what your decision or comment will be! “Think wise once in your life for god sake and dont be fool” .”

    It’s a question of priorities. If person is a Dane first and Muslim second then they’re not in favor of censorship, even if they find the cartoons offensive. Part of the price of the kind of freedom and prosperity that Danes enjoy is the fact that other people can make fun of them and their religion and they can’t do anything about it (nor do they want to).
    If someone is a Muslim first and a Dane second (or not at all) then Danish people should not care what they believe. I would go further and say they have no business staying in Denmark or at the very least they should not care what Danish newspapers print.

  • S.Mohd Khursheed

    Hollo.
    Allah is great.u r not insulting muslims but insulting Allah and his messenger dare the day of ressurection onthat day no one can help u ALLAH TELLS HEIS ALONE NO ONE IS EQUAL TO HIM
    OBEY HIM AND HHIS MESSENGER.
    ALLAH IS GREAT

  • soon.. denmark will loose its economy.. denmark people will pay much for this .. they will be an example for all the world .. and they will finally beg muslims for mercy ..

  • ISAM

    heloo every body..Im muslim and surrounded by muslims..i never felt that me or the people arround me thinking the way some pple wrote here about killing other not muslims or about hate.. we all like the freedome of speach but if the freedom of speach you are talking about is no limits and can say any thing tell me please if any one in denmark or anything else denied the holocost.. is going to be a freedom of speach? im sure all europe well get crazy… this is just a sample..if you think in europe you can say it..then we can call it a freedom of speach

  • اقسم بالله ان سياتى اليوم الذى تندمون فيه على ما صدر منكم فى حق نبينا و سيد الخلق محمد (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

  • Shirin

    The dictatorships stand up controlling the information. they want to control information everywhere, irrespective of peoples and thier sovereignty. In these countries, the islamic-religious rule has the political control and everything that fades and blunts the religious dogma, will weaken the govern. It’s what we are speaking about. We are not speaking about Muhammed, but oil and money and power.

  • khansa

    why can’t we see some cartoons about Jesus or virgin Mary or the Jews. WHY NO ONE FROM THIS SO CALLED FREE WORLD WON’T EVEN DARE TO CHALLANGE OR EVEN ASK ABOUT THE CREDIBILITY OF THE HOLOCAUST. IT SEEMS THAT YOUR FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS BIAS AND SELECTIVE JUST TO SHOW YOUR HATRED TO MUSLIMS WHEN CIRCUMSTANCES ALLOW.

  • In America or the UK, you can make yourself look like a complete moron and claim the holocaust never happed and no one will come and arrest you.

    As if you want so see images mocking Jesus and anti-Christian, take a look at some of the links in this article, and it did NOT cause hordes of outraged Christians to call for any one to be ‘punished’.

  • Ahmed

    I wondered what inspired the cartoonist to draw the imaginative picture of our beloved Prophet Muhammad. The Danish people forgot that it would hamper the relationship between the muslim world. The following comments tell me that as you are not even a purified Christian because I got many christian friends. They never disrespected Islam because they know the meanign of Islam. However the following comments expresses that commenters are not even a good christian. Freedom of speech gives you to become free and free to help mankind with your speech not to discriminate.

    In my country there are thousands of Danish citizen living here. Even they were surpised and they feel shame not fear to express themselves as Danish. People here are abandoning the Danish product so Danish market in my country will soon fall including each and every country around the world. Especially the Arab countries.

    Surely my Danish brother will understand. As a muslim I’ve always respected other religion. As a citizen of a muslim country we also have the freedom of speech and I will say proudly that we do not discriminate other religion since Jesus,Naoh,Abraham,Moses are also our prophet.

  • I wondered what inspired the cartoonist to draw the imaginative picture of our beloved Prophet Muhammad. The Danish people forgot that it would hamper the relationship between the muslim world.

    You ask what inspired the cartoonist(s) to draw those images, but several of them stated why quite clearly: to show that free speech is important and trumps religious attempts to suppress it, so that answers that question…

    …you then state “The Danish people forgot…” as if the cartoonists (several individuals) and The Danish People were one and the same thing. It suggests you are utterly collectivist in your outlook and cannot see that “The Danish People” cannot do anything because a “people” not a moral or even political actor, it is just a geographic/ethno-cultural category. It is interesting how so many Muslim activists (rightly) get upset when some Islamist terrorist blow up a bus full of civilians somewhere and articles appear in the Western press saying “look what The Muslims have done!” as if every Muslim in the world set off that bomb. Yet you are making exactly the same sort of category error by equating some individual artists with “The Danish People”.

    And therein lies the core of this… freedom of speech is something that individuals in a free society have. Moreover, what makes you think most of the commenters here are Christians? I think all religion is irrational nonsense, not just Islam. I have no obligation whatsoever to ‘respect’ your religion any more than you have an obligation to respect my lack of religion. All I want from you (demand in fact) if that you tolerate me expressing my views, because if you will not, why should I tolerate you expressing yours?

  • Dennis Castle

    A few years ago Maplethorpe’s “Piss Christ” and, more recently, some other jerks Mary portrait covered in asses and vaginas, were on display in taxpayer funded Museums and promoted at taxpayer expense. Please note that the uproar that occured wasn’t because somebody wanted to promote art that hurt other peoples feelings, it was specifically because the very people whose feelings were being hurt were the ones being forced (tax dollars) to fund this crap.

    And, for the record, Hitler never chose nor claimed to be a Christian. Being born in a country whose majority is a particular religion doesn’t count toward that kind of thing.

    I think it is unfortunate if someone wants to go out of their way to insult people, especially those they’ve never met. The videos of Muslims from Morocco to Malaysia celebrating on 9/11 as the towers came down were painful to watch. More recently, their accepting the hundreds of millions of dollars given by ordinary Americans (not counting government aid) to tsunami victims and the Pakistani earthquake victims, the overwhelming majority of which were Muslim, one day and then marching in vast parades burning our flag and our leaders in effigy the next was less than endearing as well. Why do you get to burn our leaders in effigy but we can’t even draw yours?

    Do you want offensive? I am carefully reading through the Koran (albeit in English) and am blown away by the horribly offensive things written there. Remember, the Koran was written well over half a millennia after the New Testament (love your neighbor … love your enemy … do good to those who hurt you, etc.) and what is their improvement? “… believers, retaliation is decreed for you in bloodshed … slay them wherever you find them … fighting is obligatory for you … do not make friends with anyone other than your own people” that’s just in the first few pages.

    I don’t want to get into a “who has the best imaginary friend” argument or anything. My only point is that your whole religion is monstrously offensive and if you feel the need to dish-it-out, at least be man enough to deal with the trite offense of a cartoon.

  • Dennis

    Here’s a better/ larger view of these cartoons:

    http://democracyfrontline.org/blog/?p=133

  • Non-Believer

    Exactly what David said. We send you money, yet you laugh at our tragedy? I work at a broadcast center and it made me sick to watch you Muslims dance while many people died.

    You are dogs.

  • Verity, thanks for your incisive comments.

    What exactly is a “terrorist religion”? A religion that terrorists subscribe to? Most subscribe to Islam. OK, check. Is it a religion that advocates voilence against non-believers? Yes, Islam does that. Check.

    Want to know more about Islam. Check out Rational Thought.

    Finally, some claim that freedom of speech and expression does not extend to criticising religions and hurting religious peoples’ sentiments. But then shouldn’t religious freedom also be similarly circumscribed? Why is it that Islam can have the “religious freedom” to heap invective and vile epithets on idol-worshippers like me — a peaceful person myself — and vow to kill me (merely because I don’t bow to their Allah) without any provocation? How about calling the Koran (Quran) for the piece of terrorist manual it is and prohibiting its publication?

    The moment Denmark capitulates and apologizes officially, I will know that Europe can be written off: it has lost to the terrorist dogma called Islam.

  • George Bush

    Moronic comment deleted by admin. Get a life.

  • sara

    “May peace and mercy be upon you all”. if you werent aware what this phrase is, i shall tell you. It’s the greeting of the Islam, the highest relegion being converted to these days.
    You speak of Islam my friends in a very narrowly limited sterotyped point of view. You speak what your newsagencies say without even looking back to history and trying to figure out actually who is this prophet you are simply insulting and who have changed this world at a time where caous and savage behavior was found.
    please refer to history books for authentic authors and then have the decency to write with objectivity about the the best person who shall ever come to earth.
    you speak of the man who came with the message of Allah, the one God, at a time where ignorance was all spread, and people were worshiping stones made by themselves. He was sent as a mercy to mankind.
    The world my friends, is changed and divided to a world before Mohammad (prayers and peace be upon him) came and world after him.
    Without him, girls wouldnt have had the rights they have today. Let me remind you, at the pre-Mohammad era, Females were treated like goods. They had no right of ownership, no right of life, no right of anything that matters. Look at europe and how was it? Look at the most powerful nations at that time, one which is Rome. Look at the devilish acts they were. It is said that at that time the highest difference in social class was reached. People were either sooooooo poor and barely able to survive and others were sooooo rich they were so greedy and selfish and ignorant.
    He came with a message, and alone with one child who believed in his message called, Ali, and his wife, was able to change the world as it was known.

    Please read about this prophet from authentic sources and then i would doubt you would not admire the man he was and the ideals he lived by.

    It’s a shame that what we call now a freedom of speech is becoming the freedom of insulting others and disrespecting their believes, their ideals, messengers and holy behaviors.

    It’s a shame that we now speak of ignorance, and judge upon what we hear, rather upon digging in the history and finding out the truth.

    Mohammad(pbuh) was a man of nobility, and was known for it even among his enemies.

    I am afraid, those who claim justice today don’t know the first thing of how justice is achieved. Perhaps they have heard the saying, “One is innocent until proven guilty.”

    So please, before bothering to write few words that mark your important opinon and your whole existence for all we are is what we believe, read history, read the life of Mohammad(pbuh) and then before deciding he is guilty of what he is charged in this horrific silly sterotyped animations, give him the benefit of the doubt.

    Re-ask yourself, who is he? And know that the actions of some people who claim they are Islamic, doesnt say that they are Muslims or that Islam agrees with what they do. Just like the actions of Christians to Jews in the past doesnt reflect the Christian teachings. Just like the actions of some Jews in Israel dont reflect the Jewish relegion.

    Be objective, and read. with reading you shall learn many new things and the blindess that you walk with now shall be taken away.

    We disagree with these cartoons because they lack all the truth and because it is not right to draw a prophet.

    I only would imagine your reaction when someone insults you, so how about when some one insults your parents or someone you love?

    How about when some one insults a man who sacrificed all his life just for what he believed in and just for you and I can have this holy book and communicate to Allah with prayers and other holy behaviors?

    Have you developed the interest now to know about him and clear your ignorance for once and for all?

    please refer to this website, and learn about the prophet and then perhaps you are allowed to speak about him.

    http://www.pbuh.us/prophetMuhammad.php?f=Biography

    Learn about how the world was before him and how it became after him.

    And do you know that Islamic scholars were the first to develop sciences and were the first to bring in their translations to different languages and all sciences like medicine, mathematics, philosophy etc… started with islamic scholars and with the help of Muslims, it was transferred to Europe and other nations?

    Unfortunately, there is so much you dont know. But it is important as Aristotle said, we must admit and know that we dont know.

    But most Important is that we do something about it!!!!

    So look for knowledge and pursue education.

    With all respect to all of you

  • michael farris

    “We disagree with these cartoons because they lack all the truth and because it is not right to draw a prophet.”

    It’s not right for someone who says they are Muslim to draw a prophet because that’s a rule of Islam.

    That rule simply does not apply to non-Muslims.

    In a western civil society they are free to draw Muhammed and Allah all day long if they want. Islamic law does not apply to non-Muslims. Is this hard for you to understand?

    You are free to not like the cartoons or the people who drew them or published them. You are not free to force them to apologize or prevent them from doing something similar in the future.

    Are Muslims really so weak in their faith that they care what non-Muslims in an overwhelmingly non-Muslim society think of them or their religion?

    “I only would imagine your reaction when someone insults you, so how about when some one insults your parents or someone you love?”

    So? I might not like it, but in a free society, others are free to do so. If I don’t respect the person or their opinion it won’t bother me if someone insults a loved one.

  • Max

    Sara: does it occur to you that maybe some of us understand Islam just fine and that understanding, not reports in the media, is why we reject it? Some of us have indeed pursued knowlage and education and it led us to very different conclusions.

    Read my comment here to understand why.

  • sara

    In answer to the last 2 comments, if freedom of speech allows others or gives them the right to insult other people, then its only humane to fight it.

    No, the fact that muslims are not allowed to draw Prophet mohammad or Allah is not only bound to Muslims, it is also bound to non-muslims as well. why, you may ask? Because, if i promote for instance some bad rumor about a company, this will cost it millions and millions and i can be sued for that right? why? because the law protect the company and because that rumor hurted their business and might have left them bankrupt.

    thus, when someone is doing this bad animations about prophet Mohammad, he would be insulting Islam and all Muslims, and would be promoting a bad image on Muslims and on Islamic relegion.

    Now if you accept that, i cant tell you i can or anyone else can. As much as a rumor can cause damage to a business, this animation can cause damage to my relegion, a relegion which i love and admire, and a relegion that even in its greetings wishes peace for all mankind. Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) as God says in the holy Quran was sent as a mercy to mankind, not only to muslims.

    One might accept someone saying about someone else who has stole, that he/she is a thief, because it’s what actually happened. However, one can not accept someone saying about someone who is not a rapist for example, a rapist.

    I dont think Jews or Chrisitians would allow such acts or accept them.

    When we see the right thing to do, no matter how much we are fought not to do it, we will.

    Please check the link i placed before on the life of prophet Mohammad and then tell me, u can’t admire him.

    Freedom of speech doesnt entitle people to hurt each other. I recall here a saying, “there is a tiny thread between being honest and being rude.”

    Lets be respectful to each other’s relegions and each other’s holy practices. That is what prophet Mohammad tought us.

    And if those drawings werent only on prophet mohammad, but were on other prophets as well we would have refused them as well.

    we respect all relegions and all we ask is to be respected in return. but if we are fought, we will fight to death for what we believe in and we will not accept the wrong thing no matter what.

    In Islam, we believe in Jesus, Moses, Noah, Mohamad(pbuh) and all other noble prophets. And we will not bear disrespect to anyone of them.

    With all respect,

  • thus, when someone is doing this bad animations about prophet Mohammad, he would be insulting Islam and all Muslims, and would be promoting a bad image on Muslims and on Islamic relegion.

    But if I happen to think that Islam is a bad thing, are you saying I am not permitted to say that? I am a Godless agnostic, should I be allowed to prevent you saying that being Godless is a bad thing becasue that might present agnostics in a bad way? Explain your view on that.

    I dont think Jews or Chrisitians would allow such acts or accept them.

    Will all ‘respect’ (oh that word), clearly you need to get out more and mix in wider circles. I could link to literally thousands of athiest websites that are openly anti-religious, and that includes the Jewish and Christian religions. Ridiculing the irrationality of religion (not just Islam) happens all the time, so you are just factually incorrect. Jews and Christians may not like it and they may argue against the point of view but I have yet to mean one who want to ban such anti-religious points of view. Yet it there seem to be countless muslims who want to do just that.

    When we see the right thing to do, no matter how much we are fought not to do it, we will.

    But the difference is, I am fighting for both of our views to be tolerated, you are fighting to suppress my view. I just want to not be threatened so there is no equivilence between us. That is what makes you little more than a Islamo-fascist. I will tolerate your absurd religion and let you say what you like about my views yet you will not do the same for me.

    Please check the link i placed before on the life of prophet Mohammad and then tell me, u can’t admire him.

    I don’t admire him.

    Freedom of speech doesnt entitle people to hurt each other. I recall here a saying, “there is a tiny thread between being honest and being rude.”

    But that is EXACTLY what freedom of speech is. Freedom of speech does not mean “the right to say things people will agree with”, it is the right to say thing people will not like and not agree with, without fear of being subject to threats of force. You have a right not to be threatened by me, you have no right not to be insulted by me.

    Lets be respectful to each other’s relegions and each other’s holy practices. That is what prophet Mohammad tought us.

    Sorry but no. I do not have any religion for you to be respectful of and in any case I do not need your ‘respect’, only your tolerance. You are free to think and say that I am a complete ass and to ridicule the fact I do not believe in God, just as long as you do not threaten me for saying the similar things about you and what you believe in. That is what tolerance means.

  • sara

    “The religion of Islam respects freedoms far more than any laws and other religions. Prophet Mohammed , peace be upon him (PBUH), has taught us respect of others’ freedoms and rights, principles of sound negotiation, exchange of views, and using the right evidence and proof. One of the essential basics of freedom is respecting human rights. Therefore, it comes as totally strange that the Government of Denmark, while claiming respect for human rights and freedoms, does permit the publication of such lies and distortions about Prophet Mohammed (PBUH).

    How could respect for human rights allow aggression by one person against another, their parents and relatives by means of swearing and insult? Even greater would be attacking and insulting someone’s prophet and religious beliefs. Islam totally rejects attacking the Prophets. Muslims deeply genuinely keep away from any sort of insult or attack mounted against the Prophets of all heavenly religions whom they believe in and revere. However, it is very humiliating to see such claims falsely made around the character of the most honorable of human beings; the one that was sent as a mercy to the world and final messenger to humanity: Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him). Blocking ears and closing eyes to such claims and insult to the Prophet of Islam is the gravest aggression against human rights. Moreover, it is a catalyst to sectarian conflicts and hatred among peoples of the world; besides sowing seeds of terrorism. If the Denmark government rejects these things, it should prohibit and fight such acts of insult and aggression against the Prophet of Islam rather than consider them part of the freedom of expression. Freedom never means breaching the rights of others. Planting hatred and enmity with Islam and Muslims is far from sound thinking and behaving on the part of any government that claims to uphold justice.”
    Amro Mumtaz

  • Therefore, it comes as totally strange that the Government of Denmark, while claiming respect for human rights and freedoms, does permit the publication of such lies and distortions about Prophet Mohammed

    Why? What Muslim freedoms and human right matter are being broken? YOU say something is a ‘lie and a distortion’… I say ‘ALL religion is a lie and a distortion’. Does that mean I should be calling for YOU to be banned from expressing your views?

    Even greater would be attacking and insulting someone’s prophet and religious beliefs. Islam totally rejects attacking the Prophets.

    In which case a practicing Muslim should not do that. But neither I nor the Danish journalists are Muslims and I for one resent your attempts to impose (i.e. get the state to use force) your restrictions on me. Do you think I am trying to stop you ridiculing my agnostic beliefs? Go right ahead!

    Muslims deeply genuinely keep away from any sort of insult or attack mounted against the Prophets of all heavenly religions whom they believe in and revere.

    So what? I do not give a damn if you ridicule everything I revere and believe it (and in fact you have been doing exactly that). Do you hear me calling for the state to use force stop you expressing your views?

    Saying ‘good things’ about Islam is what you do…you are a muslim. Saying ‘bad things’ about all religions is what I do… I am an agnostic and my ‘religion’ if you like is secularism. I look forward to you explaining your reasoning why you should be accorded special privilages to express yourself that you would deny to me and a certain Danish newspaper.

  • sara

    Mr. Perry,

    I admire the way you analyze things and interpret and follow up on each word i write :). it reveals your openess to read and try to understand others, doesnt mean however that you should agree with me or that i am asking you too.

    With your words, you accuse me of something i didnt do. You accuse me of actually hating you, not tolerating you, not accepting you as who you chose to be, an athiest when actually i have not once even offended you as an athiest or brought up to you accusations. Why then you feel you need to defend yourself to me. Reread your words.

    “But the difference is, I am fighting for both of our views to be tolerated, you are fighting to suppress my view. I just want to not be threatened so there is no equivilence between us. That is what makes you little more than a Islamo-fascist. I will tolerate your absurd religion and let you say what you like about my views yet you will not do the same for me.

    Who said i am fighing to supress your view? and how could you be tolerating my point of view if you keep on insulting my points of view and my paths?

    My job as a person is to invite you to what i see as the viable truth. why? why should i care to show it to you? because i care for you, just like i care for all mankind as well. It doesnt mean i will force it on you, no, or that i will insult you, that is not in my agenda and will never be.

    i am not taught to insult others and claim it as freedom of speech!!! tolerance means acceptance of the other no matter how different he or she is. well i can accept you while being polite and unhurtful or rude.

    U r asking for tolerance, i am asking for tolerance.

    i just wanted you to know the prophet Mohammad(pbuh) as i know him so that you can understand me better and understand my position. It’s my duty and my belief that when i believe in something, i have to stand up for it and fight for it till the end. Just like when women stood up for their right to vote, black people for their right to live like others and be treated like others and so…..

    how come you made your judgement on my prophet by saying “i dont admire him” without even giving him a chance and learning about him?

    how can u make such judgement without learning about him?

    now that is prejudice and injustice.

    with all respect

  • michael farris

    “No, the fact that muslims are not allowed to draw Prophet mohammad or Allah is not only bound to Muslims, it is also bound to non-muslims as well.”

    Maybe I should call up some muslims the next time I want to have some bacon (pork) a beer (alcohol) since you think the rules of your religion apply to me?

    This is seriously the heart of the issue. Muslims like you want to force non-Muslims to follow their beliefs.

    Should Denmark stop producing ham or shnaps (pork and alcohol) since Muslims aren’t allowed to? Should non-Muslim Danish women start wearing the veil?

    Seriously, which rules of Islam do you wish to force non-Muslims to follow and which will you (in your great kindness and mercy) allow us to not follow?

  • not accepting you as who you chose to be, an athiest when actually i have not once even offended you as an athiest or brought up to you accusations. Why then you feel you need to defend yourself to me.

    But this is not about ‘acceptance’, it is about ‘tolerance’. I think you miss my point: I want you to be free to offend me by ridiculing my agnostic views, regardless of whether or not you actually choose to.

    Who said i am fighing to supress your view?

    By calling for the Danish state to use law to sanction the authors of the cartoon, you are indeed seeking to use force to suppress something that you find insulting. Law is force.

    and how could you be tolerating my point of view if you keep on insulting my points of view and my paths?

    I think you mistake tolerance (the right to hold your views) with acceptance (to accept them as valid). I tolerate your right to hold them (I am not trying to prevent you expressing your religious based views) but I do not accept them as valid or correct (i.e. I tolerate what I regard as your right to hold invalid and incorrect views).

    how come you made your judgement on my prophet by saying “i dont admire him” without even giving him a chance and learning about him? how can u make such judgement without learning about him?

    Do not confuse non-acceptance with ignorance. I have read a ttanslation of the Koran (many years ago, I admit) and am far from ignorant of your religion. Likewise I know quite a lot about Christianity and I am not longer a Christian either.

    now that is prejudice and injustice.

    Feel free to regard my views, which I at least think have a basis in rationality, as ‘prejudice’, but I fail to see how they can be ‘unjust’. I am not trying to make what you say illegal in Denmark. The same cannot be said about your point of view.

  • Troy

    As an Atheist, I think all religions are ridiculous. They truley are!

    All religions are human inventions, therefore all prophets false. The world would be a better place without hateful Religions, particularly Islam and Christianity.

  • Dear,

    You dont know muhammed to talk about him . You must know him first .before Islam, there was unjusttice to the poor and weak people .In Islam ,the only reason for a war is being attacked by others. In fatah makka (victory in Makka) Muhammed forgave all the people who hurt him and forced him to leave Makka.
    You must know about him more and ask yourself what about yourself ?you permise marriage of homosexual ,you permisse killing of innocent people in Iraqe and Plastine

  • Gerald

    Nothing to add but these quotes from Voltaire:
    “The truths of religion are never so well understood as by those who have lost the power of reasoning.”
    “Men who believe absurdities will commit atrocities.”
    Still true.

  • Troy

    Mohammed may have been a good man, but a messenger of a super-being? There is no super-being, so this can’t be true.

    There is still injustice to the poor and weak. Nothing has changed. In fact, I would argue that it gets worse with every “Prophet” that claims to know all the answers.

    If the only reason for war in Islam is because you are being attacked by others, how do you explain the Iran – Iraq War? Both are Islamic Nations.

    Yes, I would permit marriage of homosexuals. Any human affection is better than any type of hate.

    No, I do not permit killing of innocents, anywhere. Not in Iraq, not in Palestine, not in Israel, not in Africa, not in America. It does not matter where they are from, or what they believe. Never do I advocate killing of innocent people.

  • Joergen

    “The religion of Islam respects freedoms far more than any laws and other religions”
    I read this further up. Were are the Churches, Mormon temples, Atheist clubs in Mekka.
    Why can’t I kiss and have sex legaly with my boy friend (I’m male myself).
    Why does my mother have to walk around coverd like a ghost.
    Why can’t she drive a car.
    I judge islam by its actions by how I see the societys of the middle east, like I judged Communism on what I saw, not what they said. And what I see as a whole in the middle east is not nice. Even in relativly liberal Malaysia Apostasi is illegal.

  • i havent ever understand u.
    tell me have u ever published a cartoon saying that the holocost is a lie?
    no ? why? u r free .
    i think u might enter the prison if u do that.
    face the truth u r NOT FREE.
    SO INSULTING THE FATHER OF MUSLIMS.
    CONSIDER IT A HOLOCOST.
    he ve done what u cant. he changed the world
    there r 2000000000 muslims in the world now
    i am not a muslim but i think muhamed is one of the greatest 10 in the history of earth
    and u?
    so sand cant insult mountains

  • Well ‘Guevara’ (interesting you use the name of a mass murder), claiming the holocaust did not happen is not a crime where I come from (Britain), so I am perfectly free to claim that if I want.

    Of course people would think I was a complete idiot given the overwhelming evidence that it DID happen (I had a relative who was one of the people who saw Belsen the day it was liberated in 1945), but no one would come to throw me in jail.

  • if any one want me to explain what about young wife aisha , painting the prophets in islam and many othe misswestern understanding write to my email
    mildmagician@yahoo.com
    i ve read alot about islam
    most of people in the world r not civilized enough to understand other cultures .
    this is bad

  • marwa

    Salam Alaycom
    You ,who are talking about democracy and freedom, you are know nothing about it.
    Democracy and freedom are not in trespassing the messengers of Allah .
    So, as your prophet Jesus is a prophet and a messenger of Allah , our prophet Mohammad is a prophet and messenger of Allah.
    We believe in our prophet and his message and we don’t accept to insult him any more peace be upon you our prophet Mohammad .
    Islam is the religion of equality and justice, the religion which equals all prophets and messengers .
    There is a verse in the holy Quran in which Jesus talking about our prophet Mohammad and that he is the only prophet who will come after him :( And when Jesus son of Mary said: O children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of God to you confirming that which was revealed before me in the Torah, and bring good tidings of a messenger who comes after me , whose name is Ahmad . Yet when he has come to them with clear proofs, they say: This is mere magic.
    ( وإذ قال عيسى ابن مريم يا بني اسرائيل إني رسول الله إليكم مصدقا لما بين يدي من التوراة ومبشرا برسول يأتي من بعدي اسمه أحمد فلما جاءهم بالبينات قالوا هذا سحر مبين )
    So, where is this freedom You are talking about???????? And where is the religion you are calling the religion of peace, justice and equality ?????
    (Link)

  • Joergen

    Guevara.

    You can’t compare the 2. In Denmark ther is no special law the forbids Holocost denial. But of course you take sombody to court and try to convince the court that you have a reasonable right to be offended. The court of course has to accepte that right. The muslims in denmark havn’t even bothered to take Jyllands Posten to court. And it does’nt realy matte in Danish law and most europen those cartoons are far to mild to fall under what you said. And we live a society build on law. The law of Man, decide by the Danish people, controled by our constitution and signed by our queen (may peace be upon her)

  • Lulu

    Hello Perry de Havilland,

    Re your post of 31st Jan, 06. (#104331 ?); and your comment :

    I am quite a well educated guy and my refusal to accept religion as meaningful (be it Islam or any other)…..

    I would like to try and invite that you chew on the content of this link.

    This link content would be self-explanatory. Just in case though : http://www.thinkdeeply.com/index.php?q=node/42

    And as for Saleem Mohamed’s post(#104361), I say Amen/Ameen and ‘hallelujah’ to that! How ‘sweet’ the light!

    Look on the bright side guys, if not for the right of freedom of speech, we would not have had the pleasure of having been introduced to such an enjoyable site.

    My warmest to one and all,
    Lulu

  • if he was a mass murder tell me what i call sharon
    bosh remember thousands of victims in iraq palastine israel .
    guevara was a romantic character who tried to fight
    the imperialism in 3 different countries in africa and south america and he was killed by the CIA
    MURDERS -REAL MURDERS- R THOSE WHO ORDER ARMIES TO FOUGHT FOR THIER PERSONAL SAKE

  • We believe in our prophet and his message and we don’t accept to insult him any more peace be upon you our prophet Mohammad

    Fine, no one is asking you to insult your prophet. You are a Muslim (obviously), so feel free to act like a Muslim if you want to.

    However do NOT feel free to expect a non-believer like me, or a bunch of Danish non-believers, to feel any obligation whatsoever towards your self-imposed limitations. As should be obvious if you glanced at a few of the previous comments, I am not a Christian, like millions of other people I am an agnostic and so ALL religion is just superstitious gibberish to me, not just Islam.

    Nevertheless, like most people in the western world, I am prepared to tolerate your religious expressions even though I may think they are nonsensical, because that is what tolerance means: not trying to prevent people saying things you may regard as idiotic. All I demand from you is that you understand that you must do the same as you have no right to stop some Danish artists drawing whatever they want to draw, even if you think it is idiotic.

    It is really that simple.

  • ‘Guevara’, stay on-topic or your comments will be deleted by Admin.

  • FIRST HI MARWA U ARE ARABIC ARENT U?
    THEN to other friends
    I want u to tell me when a newspaper at any place
    said that the holocost -as an example- is a lie do u know about a law in france says that u can doubt
    any thing except the holocost u know about the
    guilty of (antisam) why there is no thing like (antichrist) or(antidarwin) or (antiislam)
    last i am enjoyed with yr chat

  • she dont ask u to do that
    but the simplest rules of humidity is to respect 2 billion muslim u insulted thier prophet
    u can criticise any one but u cant insult any one

  • Joergen

    Last year the danish minstry of churches recognised our ancient religion of Thor and Odin, The Asser gods as we call them, in Denmark as an Official Religion like Islam, The Danish state church, Cathlicsme etc. So be carefull people of one gode only around the world you might offence my gods in Valhalla, If you kill me the Valkyres will come and tack me to Valhalla, Odins (peace be upon him) palace in Asgard. For Odin (peace be upon him) it is a big offence to just mention god in singular. We say Gods. All of them, Odin, Thor, Balder, Thyr, Frig, Freja (peace be upon them).
    I hope I’m not to much of topic

  • berry there is a law in france canthrow any one to the jail
    in europe a doctor have been criticized a lot and his
    doctora was canceled because of claiming that
    even in britain if u claim that u will be an antisam they will throw u to the jail friend
    last
    i mean that our freedom is not perfect u cant agree
    a crime like the holocost also u cant insult the icons
    again freedom is to criticise not to insult

  • Joergen

    Islam has no right to hide behind the holy. In Europe Islamic lobbisme try to influence the law on social matter: Age of consent, partnership laws etc…. That is there right. They use the Koran in that political strugle. That is also there right. But it is my right to fight back and critise, make fun of there book. The words they use on my gay lifstyle (peace be upon that lifestyle) based on their book. May be the day when there will be a GAY organisation in Mekka will I give up my right to critise the Koran

  • I hope I’m not to much of topic

    Far from it, Joergen, the point is well made.

    even in britain if u claim that u will be an antisam they will throw u to the jail friend

    Wrong. ‘Guevera’, I know ‘holocaust denial’ is a crime in some countries (France, Germany and Austria that I know of) and that is an absurd law, but in Britain and the USA, that is certainly not the case. However the fact free speech is not perfect in some places is no excuse for restricting it even more.

    But the fact is you have no right not to be offended! Just because someone upsets you, tough luck! I regard your use of the name ‘Guevara’ as offensive as he was a child killing mass murderer, so does that give me the right to call on the state to ban you from calling yourself that because I find it offensive? Surely not! Can you not see where that will lead?

    And please, take you time commenting and try to make the language clearer. It is very hard to understand you.

  • hi joergen
    the most dangerous problem is being blind to see others opinions
    christians see muslims barbarians,muslims see christians fools , non believers see gods a big lie
    christians say that the world must be created
    by a not created thing(god).
    if only we can hear each other well we can respect each other

  • if only we can hear each other well we can respect each other

    I think you are missing the point. It is all very well just saying ‘can’t we all just get along’ but you don’t seem to have a problem with one group of people (Muslims in Denmark and elsewhere) urging force of law to be used impose their will on another group of people (Danish non-believes), so your ‘nice’ sentiments ring very hollow.

    Tolerance has nothing to do with ‘respect’, they are two quite different things. I do not respect Islam and I do not care (a) if the fact I am willing to say that upsets some muslims (b) if muslims (or anyone else) do not ‘respect’ me or my agnostic beliefs and are willing to say so.

    All I want from them, and all I am prepared to offer them in return, is tolerance, and that means tolerating what they say, not accepting what they believe has any validity or objectve truth (because I don’t).

  • Tyree

    Bernard says:
    Call me a sissy, but PEACE is the answer!

    History has proven time and time again that you cannot sit down and talk with hate mongers. They have to be killed, then you can have peace.
    “Better to have the right enemies, than the wrong friends.” tyree

  • If and I say IF muslims as quickly condemned terrorist atrocities committed in the name of Islam as they do mere cartoons, they might have a point.

    Instead, their deafening silence denouncing terrorism indicts them as wantonly complicitous barbarians.

    Opps, did I type that outloud?

  • Troy

    All Religions are false.

    It is so obvious to the “Non-believer”, its painful to watch the rest of the world be convinced of all the ridiculous claims any religion has to offer. It is crazy that in this day we even have to argue this point.

    A few common themes to show that religions were “made up” by men.

    1. God is a man. – Why is this? Does it have a penis? If so, what for? Does it need to urinate? Does it enjoy sex.

    2. All prophets are male. – Why are there no female prophets in any modern religion? Do these gods not talk to Women? Women account for about 50% of the worlds population. Are they not just as important?

    3. Adultery is committed by women, not men. – A bit unfair, don’t you think?

    In the Christian bible it states that Women should not speak in it’s churches. ( I Cor. 14:34,35 I Tim 2:11,12 )

    In Islam the Women aren’t even allowed in the Mosques.

    Doesn’t this all seem a little bias? Almost like Men wrote these rules to oppress Women? So if these things were “made up” to oppress Women, what else could have been made up.

    I am looking forward to the day when human kind thinks for themselves and doesn’t let religions do their thinking for them. They will look back on modern religions such as, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam as silly superstitions of ancient people.

  • hi troy
    we non believers have our philosophy which is based on sientific reasons
    but believers r not fools
    in islam for example the god is not a man the god has no wife or a child the god is perfect and he is the one.
    women r allowed of course to enter mosques
    they sit in a private place for them only
    prophets r men as the ancient societies werent
    respecting women.
    jews and others have killed a lot of male prophets i can only imagine what they may have done if there was a female prophet
    women have fought in islam(most of them in medical services but some ve really fought)
    last the christian and islamic philosophies can be distructed by simple points orelse they will not stand till to day
    hope u ve understand me.

  • Dennis Castle

    Woe, easy there Troy. A woman arrived at a well and asked Jesus about the Father, he told her that God is spirit. Don’t get hung up on anthropomorphisms. Paul may have addressed a concern in the Corinthian church and expressed a personal opinion to Timothy about appropriate behavior. Nonetheless he’s the guy that wrote “there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free but all are one …”; not only that but if you think the New Testament insists on shutting down women then what were Phillip’s four daughters doing preaching in Jerusalem (Acts 21:9)? If it makes you feel comfortable cherry picking a couple ambiguous verses so you can dismiss religion altogether then you aren’t being intellectual, enlightened or clever. You’re just being lazy. But you are free (and that is what this is all about) to be lazy, or to cherry pick or to think the world just began all by itself and excreted sentient beings convinced of love and justice and mercy and I am free to think otherwise (perhaps I’m superstitious, but I think if you have a rabbit coming out of an empty hat that it is more reasonable to insist on a magician).

    And our Muslim friends are free to say what I consider hideously blasphemous things about Jesus, like our careful writer Marwa above when she wrote that Jesus spoke of Muhammad (O please), and that he was a prophet of “Allah”, or when Ahmed wrote that Jesus was just a prophet (to say that is to call Jesus a liar or a lunatic, because Jesus said “I and the Father are One”, which is a pretty crazy thing to say unless, of course, it’s true). Jesus claimed to be God, and unless all the good Muslims are willing to acknowledge that then they are making up a fake Jesus and pretending to be polite by calling him a prophet. But they are not being polite, they are being insulting and disrespectful to the Christians on this planet by insisting otherwise.

    Ah, but (again), that is the point isn’t it? Muslims are free to think that Jesus was just a prophet even though it mocks Christianity to say so. Why? Because that is their dearly held conviction and it wouldn’t be fair for me to insist that legal authorities force Muslims to acquiesce to my beliefs. They get to (in my opinion) insult the Creator of the Universe and I get to draw pictures of their prophet. Troy gets to mock anything he wants and we need to tolerate that or move to a land that has rejected Western Civilization and start boycotting things.

  • John Kilborn

    I think all the cartoons are primitive, childish and just plain dumb — whatever the reactions of the Islamists. And I don’t expect anything else from a humorless farty little country like Denmark, that should have been sold to Estonia years ago.

  • Ray

    I have gone through all the comments mentioned above. However there are cartain points which I feel need to be cleared up or discussed. As a Christian I have the utmost respect for Muslims as I have for followers of other religions.
    I take a quote from sara above

    “The religion of Islam respects freedoms far more than any laws and other religions.

    Having lived in Saudi Arabia I must say the freedom for non-muslims is severely restricted there. This is also in answer to some comments mentioned above as to whether there are Hindus, Christian, Buddhists and followers of other religions in Saudi Arabia. Yes there are. Although they are almost totally expatriates. Their freedom of practising their own religion is practilcally nil. Even followers of monotheistic religions like Christians are not allowed to build their own churches to worship God. All woman irrespective of their religion or preferences are forced to wear the burka (the black veil and robe). Conversion of a muslim to any other religion is considered as apostasy and is punished by death. These are just a very few of the draconian laws enforced under the Islamic Shariah syatem. There are many others which I’m not mentioning here, some of which have been mentioned above. However to be fair to them other muslim countries are a bit more fairer in these regards. But the overlying concept of curbing religious freedon is found in most of them.

    Muslims demand these same freedoms for those who reside in mainly christian countries of the west. And they do get most of them. They are allowed to build their mosques, follow their traditions and practice their religion. But the fact that these very freedoms are denied in their own countries reeks of hyposrisy. So how do you Sara claim that Islam respects freedoms more than other relogions?

    Wherever the muslims are in a majority, there is a tendency to wipe out the minority and enforce their will on them. I’ll give a few examples. There are regular cases of abduction and raping of Coptic christian girls in Egypt by muslims and they are forced to marry muslims. Christians in Indonesia, the largest muslim country in the world regularly face subjugation and harassment, which recently esclalated in the war in East Timor which a majority christian province. Hindus in Bangladesh regularly face death threats and are often compelled to convert or leave Bangladesh for India which is basically a Hindu predominant country. Examples of religious persecution are present all over the muslim world. Even among themselves towards the minority groups such as Ahmadiyyas and where the Shias are a minority.

    Could any of my muslim friends explain this discrepancy it Islam claims to be a religion that tolerates all other religions and ensures the most freedom?

    I do not believe that making fun of someones beliefs is the way of going about things. I think the Danish cartoons were in bad taste. But I do believe in their freedom to choose what they want to say and print especially in their own country where the constitution guarantees them that freedom. Of course this argument can be used to say that in Saudi Arabia the constitution does not give those that live there the same freedom. But then they have no right to claim the same freedom for those muslims living in countries where they are minorities.

    I have many muslim friends and I must say that msot of them have the viewwpoint of Saleem Mohammed above. Religion was never an issue between us. But there were those who were more fanatical followers of the religion and it was quite normal that I did not entertain their friendship or rather should I say they did not entertain mine. But my question is not addressed to the Saleem Mohammeds out there who I agree with but to those who are more ardent and intolerant about their beliefs. And Perry I’d love to get your take on this too.

  • I don’t expect anything else from a humorless farty little country like Denmark, that should have been sold to Estonia years ago.

    Which only goes to show that inspite of all our technological and social progress in the west, John Kilborn demonstrates we too can produce very limited people who have nothing meaningful to say and who are incapable of seeing the bigger issue.

  • Olly

    Jyllands Posten was entitled to publish the cartoons and Anders Fogh Rasmussen was right to refuse to intervene in the affair (notice he did not actively ‘defend’ the publication). I do think that Islam, like all other religions, is ultimately absurd and I would have difficulty living for long under even a moderately Islamic regime, but then again I grew up in Ireland in the 1980s, where Catholicism was in the midst of its final hurrah, marshalling the private lives of five and a half million people (I count the North, because the “British”-run, Protestant-majority statelet was scarcely any more liberal than the Republic, probably less so); Muslims certainly do not have a monopoly on reactionary and absurd social views.

    I do however resent being caricatured as backward and deprived of a proper civic culture because I grew up in a Catholic society (I often get this at the hands of self-righteous “secular” Protestants – Scandinavians are often the worst in this respect). I think that moderate, even non-believing Muslims, are similarly quite likely to take offence at a blanket caricaturing of their background as a benighted, irrational, misogynistic morass. People should be entitled to say what they believe about many of the stupidities of Islam, even if their own assessment is often ill-informed (many of Islam’s critics are shockingly ignorant of the religion itself and tend to lump the entire Muslim world into one convenient one-size-fits-all whole, in much the same way as the West tends to think of Africa as one homogenenous country). The sickening bile by some of the posters here, masquerading as free thinking, is becoming increasingly common in so-called liberal Europe, and has provided useful support for Bush and Blair in their murderous, racist (I am not making reference to anybody’s religion here) war, we all know, too where Denmark stood in that. I expect that some of these same posters cannot wait for the neo-cons to nuke Iran, to rid the world of the loathsome theocracy that few of them would be able to distinguish culturally, socially, demographically or even topographically from Saudi Arabia. Liberalism’s big weakness has always been its historical failure to provide a coherent aesthetic for its tenets and has also failed to account for the social effects of world history (would, for instance, the Muslim outrages over Jyllands Posten and Rushdie have occurred in the same way had Palestine not being colonised in the mid-twentieth century, had Iran not suffered under a brutal secular dictatorship for much of that century, for no reason other than to control oil supplies, had the US, the UK and Russia not prosecuted murderous conflicts, safe in the knowledge that deaths of Muslims do not arouse much sympathy in their lands?) and unfortunately there are some soi-disant liberals that gleefully nail their colours to the mast in cross-cultural flashpoints such as this, revealing those true colours to be the tawdry, sickly hues of the far right.

    As for the dangers represented by religion to the world, I think we have the right to be sanguine, if not complacent. After all, the greatest murderers of the past century, Hitler, Mao, Stalin, the Khmer Rouge, the Young Turks, were all fervently anti-religious. Even Hamas and bin Laden could only dream of their tolls and despite their own blood-thirst, I do not think they would ever want to.

    By the way, the cartoons were abysmal, unfunny and focused in no other way than to cause offence. Even the Daily Mail would have jetisoned them at the picture editor’s desk.

    I can’t expect that too many of the free “thinkers” on this site will have paid too much attention to the above but a bit of balance was needed.

    A lapsed Catholic from the far left (and proud of both)

  • Liberalism’s big weakness has always been its historical failure to provide a coherent aesthetic for its tenets

    Its not a bug, its a feature. Attempts to provide a ‘coherent aethetic’ for your tenets invariably lead to people in really cool uniforms goose stepping down the street and rank upon rank of women with fixed smiles on their faces doing syncronised gymnatics in a coherently aethetic way. No thanks.

    and has also failed to account for the social effects of world history (would, for instance, the Muslim outrages over Jyllands Posten and Rushdie have occurred in the same way had Palestine not being colonised in the mid-twentieth century, had Iran not suffered under a brutal secular dictatorship for much of that century, for no reason other than to control oil supplies, had the US, the UK and Russia not prosecuted murderous conflicts, safe in the knowledge that deaths of Muslims do not arouse much sympathy in their lands?)

    That would because it is not actually relevent.

    and unfortunately there are some soi-disant liberals that gleefully nail their colours to the mast in cross-cultural flashpoints such as this, revealing those true colours to be the tawdry, sickly hues of the far right.

    Ethno-tribal collectivism is not a ‘right’ thing, it is a collectivist thing. In fact the whole left/right thing is largely an absurdity propagated by people who say “Socialists are left and National Socialists are right” in the hope people will not notice the similarities. Collectivist statism in its varied flavours is always just variations on a theme which is why listening to communists and fascists argue is like listening to members of different religions argue over why their invisible imaginary friend likes them the best.

    By the way, the cartoons were abysmal, unfunny and focused in no other way than to cause offence. Even the Daily Mail would have jetisoned them at the picture editor’s desk.

    True but so what? This is not about art or humour, it is about liberty.

    I can’t expect that too many of the free “thinkers” on this site will have paid too much attention to the above but a bit of balance was needed.

    I am not sure which bit you are balancing to be honest.

    A lapsed Catholic from the far left (and proud of both)

    As a collectivist yourself then, surely you see all ‘rights’ are mere political grants from ‘the people’ (i.e. the state) and so what could you possibly object to if the political process in Denmark decided to prohibit certain types of expression? If the democratic majority in Denmark decide to use the collective means of repression (the political process) to impose restrictions on a minority of Danish cartoonists for reasons of utility, well I cannot see how someone from the far left would lose any sleep over that. Even if you dio not like the idea yourself, you must surely think it is an acceptable use of the political process. All that “objective rights” nonsense is for us “free thinkers”.

  • Troy

    guevaradennice,

    I did not mean to imply that believers are fools. Many intelligent people are believers. My entire family “believes”. Smart people are very good at justifying things that aren’t true. Lawyers are a perfect example.

    As for Prophets, again humans decide their prophets and we kill them.

    Dennis, you are right. I “cherry picked” verses out of the bible that fit my needs. Didn’t you do the same? Doesn’t everyone who quotes the bible do that? Isn’t it funny that no matter what your point is, you can find a verse that fits your needs? For every verse I quote, someone can find another to completely contradicted the one used. Many times people can use the same verse and pull completely different meaning out of it. People pick out what suits them. You’re right to ask, “what were Phillip’s four daughters doing preaching in Jerusalem (Acts 21:9)?” when in other parts of the bible clearly states women should not speak, or be above a man? How can we possible use something as contradictory as this for a moral code. It’s wrong and unfair. For example: A man shall not lie with another man, or we put them to death. (Lev. 20:13,…. ((Lev 20 has many rules for sexual behavior))) Then in the next chapter, Deut. 21:18,21 we should stone to death a disobedient son. We pick and choose what things we enforce in the bible. Yes, again I’m “Cherry picking”, I can’t quote the entire bible. I have to use examples. Don’t use a religious book for moral code. You are an intelligent person, use your own conscience.

    If Paul was expressing a personal opinion in the bible, “Paul may have addressed a concern in the Corinthian church and expressed a personal opinion to Timothy about appropriate behavior”, how is that the inspired word of God? How many other things in the bible are personal opinions?

    Interestingly you also stated, “all the good Muslims are willing to acknowledge that then they are making up a fake Jesus and pretending to be polite by calling him a prophet.” Don’t Muslims believe just as strongly as Christian that they are following the correct prophet? How do you know you haven’t been mislead? I mean how do you really know? You believe what you believe because that is what your parents told you to believe. Are they right?

    I will leave you with one of my favorite quotes from a Greek Philosopher…
    Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
    Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing?
    Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing?
    Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing?
    Then why call him God?
    – Epicurus

  • eao

    It is so sad to wake up each day to the world slowly slipping into the next conflagration. History has shown that when incompatible ideologies have clashed over the same turf, inevitably a correction takes place, which leaves one dominant and the other, either dead, or dormant until it can regroup and re-challenge the status quo. Modern communication has made the entire world one space. The sight of middle-east protesters defiling a nordic flag is a direct consequence of that. There is no more a ‘national’ context, isolated from world opinion and defined by common values or beliefs.
    The question is: do we need new standards of conduct that reflect this lack of a common context (i.e. multiculturalism)? Or do we maintain separate, traditional norms?
    The Secular West and Islamic East both believe that their respective ‘norms’ should govern those within their sphere of communication. One tradition allows free rein to the other’s views, the other tradition does not. Short of war, the only solution to this seems to be voluntary separation of those who abhor divergent views from those who tolerate it.
    One Tradition cannot demand the rights and respect for its views elsewhere that it itself denies to other beliefs, because in this issue, secularism is as much a ‘religion’ as Islam and just as passionately defended.

  • Fuzail

    wow!
    i cant believe what i just just read, incredible. what ever happened to respect for people let alone religion. it seems that people concentrate on what sells better than the feeling of human beings. I live in south africa and the respect that christians have for muslims is like brothers. This whole fiasco started with 9/11. i yrge you tyo visit a site called reopen911.org and you will see and read the lies of britain and america.

    anyway i still cant belive europeans, it seems 2 me than by europeans tryin to more like americans have gone overbord and become worse than americans really are.

    i leave with one one last statement – u will not succeed by promoting hatred and anamosity, it will be the cause of you own downfall.

    Thank u for allowing me to air my views

  • eao

    Liberalism’s big weakness has always been its historical failure to provide a coherent aesthetic for its tenets
    Its not a bug, its a feature. Attempts to provide a ‘coherent aethetic’ for your tenets invariably lead to people in really cool uniforms goose stepping down the street and rank upon rank of women with fixed smiles on their faces doing syncronised gymnatics in a coherently aethetic way. No thanks.

    btw, just read perry’s previous post after posting mine. Here in a nutshell is the whole crux. This is not about Islam per se, it is the age-old human conflict between the herd and the individuals; between those who’d rather rent their minds out to other’s ideology because they’re too lazy, stupid or materialistic to think for themselves and those that question the purpose of their existance; between the 10,000 vacant lots occupied by 1 mob mind and the skyscrapers that have a different office on every floor.
    Basically we’re back at 1930 all over again, although it’s not as well organized yet. Crypto-fascism has hijacked a noble and well-meaning religion just as it did with Catholicism in the middle-ages and democracy in 20th Century Europe and is once more on the march. The only difference is that it’s not that well organized… yet.

  • wow!
    i cant believe what i just just read, incredible. what ever happened to respect for people let alone religion. it seems that people concentrate on what sells better than the feeling of human beings. I live in south africa and the respect that christians have for muslims is like brothers. This whole fiasco started with 9/11. i yrge you tyo visit a site called reopen911.org and you will see and read the lies of britain and america.

    anyway i still cant belive europeans, it seems 2 me than by europeans tryin to more like americans have gone overbord and become worse than americans really are.

    i leave with one one last statement – u will not succeed by promoting hatred and anamosity, it will be the cause of you own downfall.

    Thank u for allowing me to air my views

  • we must always fight for freedom of expression, wherever and whoever is the editor, and fight against all religions fundamentalism as well, because they tell just bullshit to stupid believers!
    f u c k any church, from vatican to jewish and muslims: god is a personal affair for anyone who believe.

  • wow!
    i cant believe what i just just read, incredible. what ever happened to respect for people let alone religion. it seems that people concentrate on what sells better than the feeling of human beings. I live in south africa and the respect that christians have for muslims is like brothers. This whole fiasco started with 9/11. i yrge you tyo visit a site called reopen911.org and you will see and read the lies of britain and america.

    anyway i still cant belive europeans, it seems 2 me than by europeans tryin to more like americans have gone overbord and become worse than americans really are.

    i leave with one one last statement – u will not succeed by promoting hatred and anamosity, it will be the cause of you own downfall.

    Thank u for allowing me to air my views.

  • vince stephen

    Mohammed was a political leader – anyone can see this. It was his job to lead an army. Rhetoric about God and divine purpose would have been perfectly usual for a political and military leader at that time. In fact, only recently, G W Bush has claimed God’s authority for his actions; going far enough to suggest that God “told him” to go into Iraq.

    Now, I really find it vile that George Bush brings God’s voice to the table in order to justify his economically motivated neo-conservative agenda, but it does at least demonstrate how easy it is to do.

    It makes sense to me that Mohammed would have appealed to an imaginary divine being in order to get people to go and die in battle. And it would have made sense for him offer them a beautiful afterlife, as they were probably going to be killed in battle in the near future and didn’t have much other hope of reward. All this is fine.

    The problem comes when, centuries later, the rhetoric of a political leader and excellent military general is taken literally as a divine text of some kind. It is now completely out of context, aside from any other problems.

    This is my position on Islam and (I imagine) the position of many others. And I have read the Koran in translation (most of it… I found it rather boring). There is no reason why anyone of this view will ever see a problem with drawings of an anachronistic historical figure, which is what we hold Mohammed to be. And if we are atheists to boot, we are likely to feel that these cartoons are about as offensive as pictures of the toothfairy engaged in fellatio.

    What worries me most is that most of the Islamic voices on this board don’t understand this position at all: Most seem to think the misunderstanding and ignorance is to be found in those who are, at best, fairly indifferent to these pretty average cartoons. Essentially, it seems impossible to conduct a debate on the subject which isn’t rendered completely futile by the fact that those usually offering the Islamic side of the argument are, largely, completely unable to see any non-Islamic viewpoint as anything other that the lies of the Infidel. And, while I am not Islamophobic exactly, this does seem to suggest terrible things in a wider global context.

  • Natrone Jackson

    Nobody appreciates their religion being mocked. Christians don’t like cartoons making fun of pedophile priests are TV shows making fun of Jesus as a sidekick. So certainly it is disrepectfull to Muslims to have these cartoons too. However, what you must realize is that this is the double edged sword of freedom of speech. Muslims can’t be going out to riot, demand people’s heads etc. just because they don’t like what’s been posted. Islam doesn’t promote the “turn the other cheek” ideal as Christians do which allows Christians to be so much of an easier audience to the brunt of so many jokes. So just keep on making fun of Christians because at least they won’t riot because of it, but maybe they’ll just never buy your newspaper or products or watch your TV shows.

  • 1: Islam has no room for anything but Islam. There is no point in trying to engage in argument with a conservative or fundamentalist Muslim. Their goal is to convert you (and every one else) to Islam, by force if necessary. You are either a: Muslim, b: about to become Muslim, or c: about to die. This is the source for laws and persecution against Christians, in particular, in most of the Muslim world. There is no place and no basis for tolerance in that worldview.

    2: To those Muslims who say “No Christian would tolerate such drawings” — perhaps we wouldn’t be happy about them. I’m as fundamentalist as they come, pretty much, and while I don’t like such insults, and I might even protest for change, if that’s possible, I’d be more likely to pray for the insulter, since that’s what Jesus expects of me. Nowhere except the lunatic fringe would you find demands to kill the artist and burn down the newspaper.

    3: Troy — your Greek epigram was witty but incomplete. God is both able and willing to stop evil — but by changing hearts, not by main force. We were created to be independent beings, not puppets, and if we make bad choices, we, and those around us must live with the results. Even forgiveness doesn’t mean consequences just go away.

    Agape,

    jma

  • Dennis Castle

    Troy ~ I had two points, the first was that you were selecting metaphors as being literal and obscure and ambiguous texts to come to enormous conclusions. The second was that, of COURSE different religions disagree and the non-religious do as well, therefore the Muslim argument that we must genuflect to their sensibilities but they don’t have to acknowledge ours is ridiculous.

    You made three points in response, the first being (in a nutshell) that that the Bible can be interpreted differently depending on who is doing the interpreting. You are correct. Most people in your camp believe we cannot know things as they are but only as they appear (as Quai-Gon Jin said “… your perception is your reality”), which means we cannot know for certain what is true. I believe that truth is that which agrees with the mind of God and that he has revealed the universe to us not just as it appears but as it truly is, and revealed himself to us in his son. I would be more than happy to explain my hermeneutic to address your question more fully (what I call the “read it like an intelligent 8-year old” method), but it would be a bit off-topic.

    Your second point was that Christians and Muslims disagree therefore how can we know who is right. My point was not that a reasonable resolution to that concern is unknowable, but that this question proves that a free society must tolerate disagreements.

    Your third point was the classic “God is all powerful, God is all loving, Evil exists, therefore God cannot exist”. Far be it from me to wrestle with the God making a rock so heavy he can’t lift it argument. All I can say is that, for some reason, the idea of relationship requires free will and that the desire of God for relationship with you transcends the boundaries of that otherwise unarguable proof.

    Which brings us back to the pre-eminent concept: freedom of thought. If our Muslim friends have their way then we won’t be having any of that. I confess I am at a loss how they can keep missing that point.

  • troy
    i completely respect yr point of view . in the last hundred year 3 billion people ve died and each one of them thinked that his relegion is the right one
    i ASK ALL MUSLIMS AND CHRISTIANS why do u think
    u will deserve heaven. only because yr parents were muslims or christians?
    one must suffer to reach the truth ,think a lot and never be sure he is completely right and others r wrong.
    at last a muslim relegion man says(my opinion is a right one which may be wrong and yr opinion is a wrong one which may be right)
    got the message?

  • Troy

    vince stephen,

    Well put stephen.

    Although, I would extend this same thought to all fundamentalist of most modern religions.

    The fact that G. W. uses “Gods Voice” to justify horrible things. This is the way Religion has always been used and always will be used as long as we (the people) believe in superstition. He is just using it the same way leaders always have, and still do. Christian and Muslim leaders today use their superstitions(religions) to justify Wars, oppression, and horrible foreign policy. It is the easiest way to get a lot of people to belive in you. I don’t like him either, but he is an excellent politician.

    The truly terrible part of all this is that the masses believe this and buy into these explanations so easily. If a leader mentions “God”, or a “Prophet”. No one questions it, because to do so would be to question their religion.

    Unquestioned and unchecked faith is VERY dangerous!

    The philosopher has never killed any priests, whereas the priest has killed a great many philosophers.
    – Denis Diderot

  • Abed Nasser

    i don’t know but who among you knows Muhammed you racists………………………………….. you know nothing about Muhammed and you ask others to repeat the foolish actions of the crazy dansih newspapers, but…………………………..

  • reply to ray
    i cant explain the position of the islam as a whole from personal freedom.
    islam -like any other beliefs- is not a one whole opinion from any thing.
    for ex.
    in kuwait ,yaman , saudia arabia the women must cover her whole body in black.
    in egypt . the isalamic opinion there is different she must cover her hair only.
    in saudia the islamic opinion there is punishing all who does sex away from marriage.
    in egypt the islamic opinion leave this task to the god
    (as to be punished u must do this in public)
    i mean osama bin laden and amr khaled are not certainly in the same camp.

  • Troy

    Dennis,

    I completely agree with your last paragraph.

    “freedom of thought. If our Muslim friends have their way then we won’t be having any of that. I confess I am at a loss how they can keep missing that point.”

    I couldn’t agree more. Well put! I am just as lost as you are.

    But again, I won’t limit this to Muslims. I believe if fundamentalist Christians or Jews had their way, It would be no different.

  • Dennis Castle

    Troy ~ do you have any examples of Christians demanding submission to their faith from non-Christians that don’t go back into antiquity?

  • pilchard

    I heartily applaud the Danes.

    I hate this pseudoterm “Islamophobia”. WTF? Not wanting to go back to the Dark Ages is not a phobia (and for the less educated a phobia is a defined medical condition not a rational dislike of something), just survival instinct. Not wanting another culture to impose themselves on you under threat of suicide bombers is natural.

  • i don’t know but who among you knows Muhammed you racists

    Islam is not a race, so a dislike of Isam does not make anyone a racist.

    you know nothing about Muhammed

    How do you know what I and other know? I have also read the Koran and I know Muslims. The reason I dislike the principles of Islam is not because I am ignorant of them, it is because I do understand them.

    and you ask others to repeat the foolish actions of the crazy dansih newspapers, but…

    For sure. Give me an rational intellectual reason why I should not think that. Why should I tolerate restrictions on free speech on behalf of a religion that I do not believe in? Is it okay with you if I restrict your rights to say things with I do not want to hear?

  • pilchard

    The comments about Adolf Hitler being a Christian are remarkably ill-informed also.

    As for comments about Islam in general, seeing balaclava-clad gunmen in Gaza is ample proof – as is the current campaign by Muslim countries. Yes there are moderate Muslims out there – who should be making themselves heard more. In the meantime the rest of us will worry about the quarter of Muslims in this country that sympathise with OBL.

  • The question is: do we need new standards of conduct that reflect this lack of a common context (i.e. multiculturalism)? Or do we maintain separate, traditional norms?

    But those are not the only alternatives. Multiculturalism is preposterous because it assumes all cultural values are equal and there is not such thing as objective truth. Do you want to allow cliterodectomies and the stoning of homosexuals to death by Muslims in the west? How about death for apostate Muslims who decide they have had enough of their nonsense and want to either lead a secular atheist life or maybe become a Christian or a Buddhist or Hindu? To hold ‘multiculturalism’ as valid, you cannot oppose those things.

    No, the future is neither mono-cultural nor multi-cultural, it is cosmopolitan… and that requires tolerance.

  • pilchard

    It is interesting to see the comment of Muslims. Most are threatening, some are cajoling. What do the threatening ones hope to achieve but confirm the impression that many Muslims are thugs who hope to wipe out all non-Muslims? As for cajoling, well we have this thing called Liberalism in the West. So regardless of what YOU think, other people have the right to think different and offend you. When nobody is allowed to do wrong (eg Saudi Arabia) for fear of monstrous punishment, is anyone truly “good”?

  • pilchard

    “rules of humidity”? LOL – is that to do with windchill factor?

  • Yasmine

    I know most people are saying that publishing thoes cartoon charchters shouldnt be a problem as this is the west, where freedom of speech exists, but if u want freedom of speech then u could make fun of western acts or beliefs. Western Freedom of Speech should only apply to western acts or beliefs.

  • Dennis Castle

    Yasmine, what color of crayon does “freedom of speech” need to be written in for you to understand those words?

  • this is the west, where freedom of speech exists, but if u want freedom of speech then u could make fun of western acts or beliefs.

    Yes, and we do that all the time.

    Western Freedom of Speech should only apply to western acts or beliefs.

    Does that mean we should not be allowed to ridicule North Korean communism, or forms of government in Congo? Or would that just apply to poking fun at Islam?

    And also please explain why we should treat someone else’s values, which we might find utterly abhorent, more delicately that we treat out own screwed up culture’s values?

  • theIronDuke

    Hello everyone.

    I think his thread is remarkably illustrative of the basic ideas behind Sam Huntington’s thesis in “Clash of Civilizations”. But this isn’t a clash of “civilizations”. It is a clash between a civilized order and utter rank barbarism.

    I lived all my life in India until three years ago when I moved to Britain. And my worst prejudices about Islam, Islamic attitudes and about Muslims have been confirmed every month, every day since then.

    These people do not, cannot understand the separation of church and state, the separation of powers, the precepts of the enlightenment. They are “blessed” with a prophet who sought to legislate on every conceivable area of human life so that no scope is left for science, for introspection or for a rational politics.

    And their utterly barbaric mentality reveals itself at every opportunity. Having just witnessed the last cricket test between India and Pakistan, I was amazed to see the level of hatred by Pakistanis vented at Hindus (Not Indians mind you) just because they happen to be engaging in a sport with India. To them it is another Jihad. The vilest, most obscene, the most vulgar forms of racial/religious abuse from Pakistanis litters the BBC’s South Asian cricket message boards. And the strangest thing is, they abuse and slander Hindu dieties in the most vulgar language, yet start screaming if someone draws a little cartoon of their beloved prophet.

    As an atheist and a firm believer in the fundamental ideas of the enlightenment I reject religion. But I do not consider it possible that these barbarians shall understand that point of view.

    Their demand for “respect” is laughable. It should be accorded when non-Muslims aren’t raped, robbed, pillaged, flogged and brutally murdered in Islamic lands. We shall then be willing to consider the principles of this so-called “religion of peace”.

    The spinelessness of western politicians sickens me. Clinton deserves to be born in Nazi Germany to be captured by the Gestapo. He understands nothing about Freedom. He is a disgrace.

  • Troy

    Dennis,

    Your question: “do you have any examples of Christians demanding submission to their faith from non-Christians that don’t go back into antiquity?”

    Certianly! Just a few…..

    “I don’t know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.”
    George Bush Sr. (President of the United States)

    There ought to be limits to freedom.
    – George W. Bush

    If we are going to save America and evangelize the world, we cannot accommodate secular philosophies that are diametrically opposed to Christian truth.
    – Jerry Falwell, “Moral Majority Report” for September, 1984

    Like all idolatries, democratism substitutes a false god for the real, a love of process for a love of country.
    – Pat Buchanan, 1990, quoted from Political Amazon’s “Quotes from Hell

    Washington and Lincoln were un-Christian and their names are unworthy of being brought before the public.
    – Rev. Romaine F. Bateman, New York Herald Tribune, Feb. 18, 1932

    “Nobody has the right to worship on this planet any other God than Jehovah. And therefore the state does not have the responsibility to defend anybody’s pseudo-right to worship an idol.”
    Joseph Morecraft (Chalcedon Presbyterian Church)

    “The long-term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to His Church’s public marks of the covenant–baptism and holy communion–must be denied citizenship.”
    “This is God’s world, not Satan’s. Christians are the lawful heirs, not non-Christians.”
    Gary North (Institute for Christian Economics)

    “When the Christian majority takes over this country, there will be no satanic churches, no more free distribution of pornography, no more talk of rights for homosexuals. After the Christian majority takes control, pluralism will be seen as immoral and evil and the state will not permit anybody the right to practice evil.”
    Gary Potter (Catholics for Christian Political Action)

    “I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good…Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a biblical duty, we are called by God to conquer this country. We don’t want equal time. We don’t want pluralism.”
    “Our goal must be simple. We must have a Christian nation built on God’s law, on the ten Commandments. No apologies.”
    Randall Terry (Operation Rescue)

    “When I, or people like me, are running the country, you’d better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we’ll execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed.”
    Randall Terry (Operation Rescue)

    [Those who oppose capitol punishment and war] are moral perverts and degenerates; they have lost the capacity for righteous indignation.
    – Rev. R. H. Charles, quoted by Joseph Lewis in The Ten Commandments p. 369
    Rev. R. H. Charles

    All of these people are alive today. I could keep going, but you get the point.

  • Those who oppose capitol punishment…

    LOL… is that “to be punished by being sent to Washington D.C.”?

    Glad I’m an agnostic.

  • Dennis Castle

    Troy ~ pretty scary laundry list.

    The first quote from George Bush, Sr. I find hard to believe. Do you have a source? I’d have to read the context of the second quote, how do you know it has anything to do with Christianity?

    In fact, none of them really addressed my question; though if you wanted to say “some Christians are idiots” you certainly proved your point. The quotes from Gary North (who?) and Gary Potter (friend of Hermoine?) are bizarre and come closest, but if that is the best you can do then (I mean, these guy’s are marginalized, invisible, disturbed) I think the world is pretty safe.

    I see a difference between using democratic means to address political issues, even when the motivations for activism are faith-based like Terry Randall and the abortion issue, and demanding de-facto acquiescence like this silly but dangerous cartoon Muhammad issue.

  • Jason

    Its funny how the atheist and the devout Christian/Muslim/Odinists posters here are so similar in their refusal to allow for the possibility that the other is correct about their religious beliefs and they themselves are wrong. They are both slamming each other for being closed minded when they themselves are being closed minded.
    The atheists have this erroneous mentality that only empirically proven data is plausible. To them I say the knowledge of the world we live is like the tip of an iceberg, barely discovered. How long ago did man think the world was flat or that the idea of tiny creatures called bacteria was ridiculous (Perry)? In other words, just because you cant prove something (God) exists doesn’t mean it isn’t so.
    To the Christian/Muslim/Valhallist (very funny Joergen btw) you assume that all people are blessed with your moral code and that you can reason to non-believers with your religious standards. You can argue until you are blue in the face on that one. If I don’t believe that Mohammed was anything other than a man that lived a long time ago then why would I hold him in any other light than any other being on the planet that I wanted to satire in a semi-funny way.
    One other thing, Perry please use smaller words! What the hell is “ethno-tribal collectivism” anyhow? You don’t have to get monosyllabic on us, but, keep it real man!

  • Well as I am an agnostic, not an atheist, I guess you are not really talking to me. Moreover as I am a Popperian and regard everything we know as a falsifiable theory, so you sure as hell cannot be talking to me.

    The most plausible theory available to me is that God is a psychological artifice rather than an objective invisible deity. It has taken me years to get to that position, but that is what I have concluded on the basis on the currently available evidence to which I have applied my reason.

    And I am sure you can figure out what an ethno-tribal collectivist it if you think hard enough. They are not uncommon.

  • Dennis Castle

    So, Perry, in that case what got everything started?

  • Troy

    Dennis,

    I know my source is a quite bias, but it has enough information in it, that you can confirm the statement on your own…I would only expect that you should, and would.

    http://www.evilbible.com/Retard_May_2004.htm

    True, Most sensible people will view a few of these guys as “Crazy Unknowns”. Just as you stated: “(I mean, these guy’s are marginalized, invisible, disturbed) I think the world is pretty safe.” But it shows the potential of the religion and its ideals. Remember, there was a time Osama bin Laden seemed marginalized, invisible, and disturbed. I’m sure Muhammad and Jesus appeared this way to many sensible people of their time.

    You are very sensible, in that you understand there isn’t always one right answer, and things should be thought out carefully after all the evidence and opinions are gathered. Then, hopefully, we can come to a “Democratic” solution. Religions do not advocate this. They have laws from divine inspiration.

    Islam has a law that states there should be no images of Muhammad. Which they follow and enforce as God has commanded. Christianity has the same law, from the same prophet (Moses), but rarely do I see them follow it. It’s the Second Commandment.

    Commandment 2: Thou shall make no image of God. “Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above…” (The commandments vary slightly; depending on what version of the bible you pick up…divine word of God?)

    Qur’anic Equivalent: “My Lord, make this a peaceful land, and protect me and my children from worshiping idols.” (14:35)

    There are countless holy images in Christianity; Crucifixes, pictures of Jesus and God. (In Christianity, Jesus is God. Part of the Trinity)

    This is a silly law (Commandment), it hurts nobody. The only thing it does is to protect the mystique of the religion. But it is a Gods law.

    It does not surprise me that Muslims are angry. They are only enforcing the divine word of God, as handed down to Moses, in the Second Commandment. There is no debate. This is a divine law, unlike most modern Christians (excluding the ones I quoted in my previous entry), Muslims have the conviction of their religion, and they take Gods word seriously! God has laws and they are non-negotiable for all people. Religion is not tolerant. People are.

    The problem is not with Islam itself. The problem is with ALL Religious Dogma.

    Your question: “do you have any examples of Christians demanding submission to their faith from non-Christians that don’t go back into antiquity?”

    I think I gave excellent examples of this. Did I not understand the question?

  • So, Perry, in that case what got everything started?

    I was responding to Jason’s post.

  • Dennis Castle

    Troy ~ you gave excellent examples for my poorly phrased question. I was referring to your earlier post that equated Islam with Christianity and so was looking for something in the last century or so where Christians tried to coerce the non-Christian world to acquiesce to their sensitivities (in a similar manner to what is happening now with the cartoons).

    Wow, you expect a balanced, in-context perspective from “evilbible.com/retard”? I mean, I’m more than happy to address controversial issues with fair-minded people but sheesh, that seems a little “vested interest” to me.

    Perry ~ I should have wrote “Since you are mostly convinced at this point in your life that God is imaginary then how did everything get started?”

  • I have no idea. I have never seen a theory (which I could get my head around) that made much sence.

  • Dennis Castle

    CS Lewis suggested imagining a sheet of paper stretching in all directions infinitely and then drawing a short line in the midst of it somewhere. The paper is God and the line represents all of time and space. I like that illustration because it shows that time and space are dependent on God while revealing how silly it would be to insist where on that line that God began.

    The most important thing about that paper, however, is that you cannot, must not, ever draw a picture of Muhammad on it.

  • Hey. This thread was on my referrer logs and I se someone lnked to me here (and they linked to me in another thread somewhere else). I just wanted to say Im not pimping my blog above, someone else linked to me. And I thank them and all, but rest assured pimpeth i am not. I dont want to soil my good (heh) name.

    As for the cartoons I am amazed at this tempest in a teapot, if thats the right word.

    Sure, you can view them as disrespectful, if you want. Thats a personal choice to be bothered by them. Many muslims seem to not be able to differentiate between feeling anger and choosing not to let it bother them. I dont think the recognize it as a choice right now.

    And I also dont think they fully grasp the limited ability of a democratic government to control the media. I am not suprised at these two deficits in understandiing because first of all many muslims live in countries with no free press AND there lives are not as full of choices as is mine, for example, or Perry’s.

    The free press does what it wants to, of course obeying the law. But depicting a mythical figure is not against our laws. And it is unfair to expect us to bend to their laws, to “Allah’s” will, just because they bend to it.

    Frankly, their religion is THEIR PROBLEM. Religion isnt always a problem, and Islam isnt always a problem, but in this case Islam is the problem…not Denmark. Not the newspaper.

    Islam is the problem. It has to adapt because frankly evolution only goes in one direction and if Islam doesnt adapt then the lot of the Muslim will continue to be a harsher life and a freedom deficit while the “west” continues to guzzle their oil and invade their tumultuous and disheveled countries.

    This entire fiasco is highlighting a major fault in Islam, NOT a major hypocrisy of the West. The Middle East is an open sore and their religion is in major need of an upgrade.

  • Troy

    Dennis,

    I agree. That web site is very bias and a little over the top. I’ve originally got that quote from a less accessible (paper) source. That is the best I did on the fly. But like I said, there is enough information there for you to independently confirm it (dates, location, venue, people) and that’s what’s really important.

    You should never just “take my word for it”, or anyone else’s for that matter. I expect you would, and should be researching anything you don’t believe or agree with. (especially if someone gives you such a questionable web site as I gave you, sorry) I have spent many painful hours trying to read the Bible, while taking notes (it’s difficult). I know….I really need a new hobby.

    Always find out…for yourself, if its important enough for you. Most religious people are simply happy with their holy books. That is, if they even actually read them ( I have found most haven’t). They usually just depend on an “Authority” figure to tell them what is right and how to interpret their holy books. I don’t blame them! Seriously reading the Bible and analyzing it, is hard work! Seems like an awful waist of time when you have people to tell you what it says. You just have to decide who to believe.

    Ahhhh….thank you for the clarification of you question.

    I do know that the U.S. dollar did not state “In God We Trust” until 1954, when fundamentalist Christian groups demanded it. Before that it said, “E Pluribus Unum” (From many [come] one). E Pluribus Unum was chosen by a committee of Jefferson, Adams and Franklin.

    On the contrary, G.W. recently made the new Iraqi government take “God is Great” off their flag.

    While many in the U.S. are trying to put more religion in U.S. schools, the U.S. Gov. is doing their best to encourage secular schools in the Muslim world.

    Does this seem a little hypocritical to anyone else? Do as I say, not as I do?

  • Troy

    The most important thing about that paper, however, is that you cannot, must not, ever draw a picture of Muhammad on it.

    Dennis! That was funny! I wan’t to use that creation theory, just so I can use the punch line.

  • here’s a link with some good size pics of the cartoons. I don’t see what the big deal is myself

  • Buddy

    here’s the link again didn’t work the first time

  • pilchard

    “Western Freedom of Speech should only apply to western acts or beliefs.” What sort of moronic nonsense is this? The fact that Muslims believe their faith should be above criticism is exactly why it should be criticised. Such pomposity deserves deflation. The poster obviously doesn’t understand the principle of free speech, possibly living in a repressive Islamic regime? Thank goodness I do not!

  • pilchard

    Amongst other ironies is the fact that these cartoons have cause offence by allegedly equating Mohammed with terrorism (which is not a great leap in my mind since he was bloodthirsty) and now 2 Jyllands Posten offices had to be shut because of bomb threats!

  • Dennis Castle

    Troy ~ My guess is that the “God is Great” that was removed (not that I know that is what happened, I’m just running with your explanation) actually reads Allahu Akhbar (or however it should be transliterated, not translated). Which means, of course, that Allah is Great. I know that most people will argue that Allah is the Arabic word for God, but they are wrong. Allah comes from a pagan name back in Muhammad’s time for a moon god (on a different etymological track, there are different Hebrew names for God, such as Adonai [lord], Elohim [God], and Yahweh [the Hebrew personal name for God, which can be interpreted as "I Am"]). I’m not trying to be insulting to anyone here, I’m just stating the grammatical/historical etymological roots for what we are writing about.

    Is it possible there is a real God and a real Devil, with real angels and demons (fallen angels)? Having read the Koran in English, the Hebrew Scriptures in Hebrew (except the Aramaic parts) and the New Testament in Greek (aren’t I special?), allow me to say there is nothing in common between Allah and God, and even less in common between Allah and Jesus (somewhere far back in this thread a Muslim tried to say in Africa all Muslims and Christians see each other as brothers. As though we aren’t able to read in the paper everyday about the Muslims raping and killing the Christians in Darfur. Spare me). Anyway, I am convinced that there is a spiritual dynamic in play with whoever this Allah character is, and I am convinced he is real. I am not surprised at all that the actions of his followers and unenlightened reactions of those who are not provide comfort for the convictions of people that think all religion is nonsense.

    Nonetheless there is a spectacular drama at play. Somebody may be ultimately RIGHT, though it is possible that all of us are, to varying degrees, completely WRONG. The secularists stare in dismay, hoping for some Gene Roddenberry type of United Federation of Planets solution to the whole mess. Which works out pretty well on Star Trek, but in reality would be the ultimate bureaucratic Hell-on- Earth and complete abnegation of individual freedom and the realization of a socialist death-of-the-soul. If the religious people are right at all, this means there are macro-spiritual beings with vested interests in all these goings on.

    Pretty interesting times, you think? Sounds more like a Chinese curse. Don’t ask me what my point is, I’m just writing my thoughts about all this.

  • oliver farry

    (somewhere far back in this thread a Muslim tried to say in Africa all Muslims and Christians see each other as brothers. As though we aren’t able to read in the paper everyday about the Muslims raping and killing the Christians in Darfur. Spare me).

    Dennis, this is remarkably similar to something I mentioned yesterday in passing about Western attitudes to Africa . I know that you are responding to a generalisation but allowing Darfur to stand as a metonym for a whole continent is a bit suspect. Though we could do the same thing for Bosnia and Europe…

  • wikimodo

    Denis do not despair.
    For everyone and i mean evreyone can embrace that gleaming rainbow of free expression without violence.
    The majority ARE normal and have that indelible truth seared into their hearts.
    I may have layed in the dunes and valleys of oppression, but shit, how those stars still shine!

  • Greg Henriksen

    I stumbled across this post by chance and have been very impressed by the comments and threads. It has been a very enlightening read for me and one that has taken me away from my work for some time. I feel that the fact that posts have been made from all spheres of the religious/political/cultural/etc/etc…. points of view is testament to the ideology of free speech. I have my own point of view on the topic but I am humbled buy those more proficient in the English language to pluck up the courage post anything more than this text.

  • Faisal

    I’m a muslim living in India. I’ve been reading all the anti Islam postings. Well….have you non-muslims ( esp. the westerners ) ever taken a peek inside U. First of all, your hatred of Islam is from the fact that Islam is the truth, and truth is always a bitter pill to swallow. Secondly, you blame Islam for the actions of Muslims…like terrorism. Ever spared a moment to think why this is happening??? Why will anyone blow himself up??? Its you and your ilk that are the reason behind it. Just be limited to your soil without trying to encroach on muslim soils and terrorism will just disappear. Its not terrorism..its fighting for one right & justice. True, you have the best of the weaponry..but thats it!!! You ppl are cowards…preferring to strike from a distance. If you have the guts…fight on a level playing field. I tell you…your entire tribe/civilisation will be wiped out..you just don’t have the balls to do that. And if you don’t feel bad about ppl making fun of your religion, its your problem. If you are happy in being ridiculed..so be it..but don’t expect others to feel the same. WE FEEL VERY VERY VERY OFFENDED IF IT COMES TO OUR RELIGION. If you don’t like it, just stay away from it and keep your stupid comments to yourself. And sit down and think…what makes the world tick…how in the first place the world was made..remember nothing is created out of thin air…without someone doing it. So, stop puking and think…if that’s not too much to ask for…logically!!!

  • Paul

    Religion is the problem — not the solution.

    If everybody got along without needing to destroy each other, then the world wouldn’t be quite so hateful.

    Cartoons are just cartoons, not a recipe for war or despising others.

    Somebody turn the lights on – i’m fed up of living in the dark ages — stop the destruction and provocation, please.

  • oliver farry

    Paul,
    religion is responsible for a lot of ills and we are all better off in civic society being protected from its encroaching influence – this is why I reluctantly support Jyllands Posten in this case despite its past history supporting xenophobic far-right political factions in Denmark – but the current war in Iraq has been waged by one secular faction upon a secular Arab despot. Religion of course has been a contextual factor in this conflict and has become more signficant as the war has progressed but the base motive was something altogether more worldly: naked greed and machiavellian geopolitics. To blame all wars on religion is naive and frankly lazy thinking (you have to go back to the eighteenth century at least to find a major international conflict in Europe prosecuted even ostensibly on religious grounds). Whatever we may wish, religion is not going to go away – two hundred and fifty years after the Enlightenment it is still with us, albeit in a thankfully mitigated form in Europe – and even if it were to disappear, the world could not be guaranteed any more peace because of it.

  • Uzma

    I would just like to say that those people who don’t know anything about Islam and have made comments such as they found the pictures entertaining and they don’t see what the fuss is about…well I assume they don’t believe in God.For a Muslim it is not a small matetr when someone, especially a non-Muslim slanders your religion and how can we tolerate it when they have insulted our Prophet (PBUH)?Those of you who do not believe in God, have shallow, meaningless lives.
    You are the people who live for the moment, as life is too short and you’re very quick to comment on other people’s issues.
    Islam has been around for over 14 centuries and if in all this time a Muslim hasn’t published any pictures of the Prophet (PBUH) who gives anyone else a right to do it?
    I think non-Muslims need to sort their own issues out first and should leave Islam and Muslims alone.
    Islam is the only pure, unchanged and true religion there is on this Earth and no-one, especially the ignorant non-Muslims, has a right to insult any part fo Islam, especially the Prophet (PBUH)
    So those people who don’t know anything about Islam, keep your stupid, pathetic comments to yourselves and just worry about your own, personal issues.

  • whimsy

    Thanks for posting the ‘cartoon’ and refs here. It’s difficult to know what the fuss is about without being able to see the offending ‘document’. Talk about Catch 22! Pity the religi-ites of all descriptions rarely go back to the source documents (however questionable their origin) and just keep quoting the most recent quoter, or whoever’s POV suits their own stance.

    I always like that bit in the Mel Brooks film where a couple of the 12 commandment tablets get dropped and broken before the content is conveyed to the masses. Maybe one was ‘thou shalt not take this stuff too seriously’.

  • I found some more cartoons.

  • First of all, your hatred of Islam is from the fact that Islam is the truth, and truth is always a bitter pill to swallow.

    In what way is it the truth? If I am an agnostic, in what way can Islam or any religion be the truth? Just saying “this is the truth” does not make it so.

    Ever spared a moment to think why this is happening?

    Why some Muslims are trying to ban a bunch of Danish people in Denmark from putting cartoons in a Danish newspaper? You tell me, why is this happening?

    Its you and your ilk that are the reason behind it. Just be limited to your soil without trying to encroach on muslim soils and terrorism will just disappear. Its not terrorism..its fighting for one right & justice

    And this has what to do with some Muslims trying to ban a bunch of Danish people in Denmark from putting cartoons in a Danish newspaper?

    And if you don’t feel bad about ppl making fun of your religion, its your problem. If you are happy in being ridiculed..so be it..

    That is because we are not so insecure that we cannot tolerate what other people say.

    but don’t expect others to feel the same.

    But how you FEEL about it is utterly irrelevent. The demand is that you tolerate the free speech of others, there is no requirement for you to feel good about what they are saying

    WE FEEL VERY VERY VERY OFFENDED IF IT COMES TO OUR RELIGION.

    Indeed. And that is your problem, not anyone elses. What people in the free world express is their business, not yours. What you feel offended about is your busness and not mine. I feel offended by what a lot of Muslims say, but that is my business, not theirs.

    If you don’t like it, just stay away from it and keep your stupid comments to yourself.

    When Danish people in Denmark make a comment in a Danish newspaper, that IS “keeping it to themselves”. It is their newspaper and their country, not yours. Don’t like it? Tough.

    And sit down and think…what makes the world tick…how in the first place the world was made..remember nothing is created out of thin air…without someone doing it.

    Prove it.

  • I would just like to say that those people who don’t know anything about Islam

    How do you know that?

    and have made comments such as they found the pictures entertaining and they don’t see what the fuss is about…well I assume they don’t believe in God.For a Muslim it is not a small matetr when someone, especially a non-Muslim slanders your religion and how can we tolerate it when they have insulted our Prophet (PBUH)?

    Firstly, because you do not have any choice in the matter. You don’t get to decide what people in the west can and cannot say. Secondly, if you expect non-Muslims to tolerate the things Muslims say (and there are many more non-muslims in the world that muslims), then you have to tolerate what they say.

    Those of you who do not believe in God, have shallow, meaningless lives. You are the people who live for the moment, as life is too short and you’re very quick to comment on other people’s issues.

    And people who belive in things that do not exist live deluded lives. So what?

    Islam has been around for over 14 centuries and if in all this time a Muslim hasn’t published any pictures of the Prophet (PBUH) who gives anyone else a right to do it?

    As those Danish people were not muslims, what gives you the right to stop them from publishing pictures of Mohammed? Your laws and values do not apply to non-Muslims, regardless of how much you wish they did. Even nominal Muslims in the west can choose to turn their back on Islam if they want to. People in Europe fought against Muslim invaders for centuries and your side lost. Your laws do not apply to us.

    I think non-Muslims need to sort their own issues out first and should leave Islam and Muslims alone.

    Why? Saying what we like about what we like is one of our ‘issues’… and we choose to talk about you guys at the moment.

    Islam is the only pure, unchanged and true religion there is on this Earth and no-one, especially the ignorant non-Muslims, has a right to insult any part fo Islam, especially the Prophet (PBUH)

    As Jyllands-Posten has just proved beyond any shadow of a doubt, cleary we DO have the right to say what we damn well please about your religion.

    So those people who don’t know anything about Islam, keep your stupid, pathetic comments to yourselves and just worry about your own, personal issues.

    I can onlyspeak for myslef, not other commenters, but I know quite a lot about Islam. My dislike comes from knowlage, not ignorance.

  • Bettina Pedersen

    Many thanks from Denmark for your statements and your support. We really need it.

  • pilchard

    Faisal you are a card – and a true fanatic. You seem incapable because of your extreme views of considering the viewpoint of anyone else so forgive me if I ignore everything you say. If its people like you that are offended, I can only hope there are busy cartoonists out there…

  • pilchard

    Usma, how exactly do you think your threats of divine retribution and claims of superiority play? On the basis of your extremely offensive comments, do you think therefore I and others are less likely or more likely to want to offend you.

    Stuff your beliefs where the Prophet cannot see them pal. And call down all the curse of Allah (name of a moon god but never mind) you want.

  • pilchard

    I aim to buy lots of Danish bacon this weekend! I pity the poor workers in Muslim countries who have lost their jobs over this.

  • pilchard

    Re graven images – like all scriptures, sensible people will research the context and the language used to get the exact meaning. In this particular verse clearly what is meant is that no idols should be made. In the Orthodox church of course icons are an important part of their tradition – and certainly nobody suggests the mere act of making a picture of God is blasphemy (a concept which surely can only apply to those of that faith as such).

    I had the logic behind the icon explained to me. A statue/idol is limiting god(s) to 3 dimensions, whereas an icon is like a photo and not limiting god(s) to the image. He explained it better. I have an icon from a Greek holiday and I think it is a very spiritual object.

  • Jason

    Perry,
    I appreciate the thought put forth by your posts. I am, however, extremely curious how a self professed agnostic (One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God) can claim that religion is ridiculous. In theory, a true agnostic would not be able to make such a claim because if they dont know if there is a God they cannot condemn those who believe in one. Being such, they would allow for the possibility of one and not think that idea of a God is “ridiculous”. An atheist, on the other hand, could surely blast anyone who thinks there is a divine creator. Obviously you have put some extensive thought into the subject, per your posts, so this isnt a blast so much as it is an inquiry to your logic.
    BTW I think I’m going to go protest the “Peanuts” cartoons. I have a rather large cranium and I think the depiction of Charlie Brown is rather insulting. To think of how he makes a fool of him always trying to kick the football and Lucy pulling it away at the last second just makes me irrate!

  • sara

    Mr Perry!!! Always using other’s words to retort and rarely finding something not to disagree with.

    i should tell you,sometimes it’s not that the battle chooses us, it’s us who choose the battle. Why, would you go through answering all these muslims, or defenders of Islam if Islam means to you so little? Why not ask yourself and look deep and search, why muslims actually are devoted to Islam this much and are willing to sacrifice their lives for it unlike many others.

    Tell me, what makes you survive or sacrifice your life for? what stipulates you in life? why were you created and who have created you? And if there is no creator for this whole universe then how come it is all so organized completely, like the solar system, that if one star would move slightly in different direction, our lives in this universe would be threatened?

    Do you think all this was created from nothing? then nothing certainly has to be something!!! doesnt it?

    Ponder in the nature’s behavior, in the plant’s behavior, in volcano’s or tornado’s or earthquakes actions and how easily can be taken human life!!

    think how come we dont know when we will die? think how come we are so powerless, and it takes us centuries to go past in science. it is know scientifically that the intelligence used by humans is a very very small tiny percentage of the actual human intelligence.

    Look at how we are progressing with science and at same time, what have been thought in science right before have proven to be wrong sometimes. Example, the earth was thought to be flat. Surprize!!! it is oval, years later.

    Can’t our minds be manipulated by the easiest things and tiniest things in life, cocain, heroin….. ?

    look how small we are and how fragile we are and incapable of defending ourselves against other or against a natural phenomena?

    my discussion here goes beyond all of the discussions above about the caricatures made, which i reject. So please dont answer me, what has all this got to do with what we are discussing as others you have answered.

    Open up your mind and think differently this time. Take one hour for yourself among nature, and look around everything around you and think!! That is my challenge to you.

    Think of your size against this world’s size!! think of the existence of things proved by science and that we dont see. doesnt that point out the possibility of the existence of other things that we dont actually see and that might be greater, and stronger than us?

    how can one look at the circle of life and dont actually see that there is a creator behind it? i dont understand.

    my conviction in Islam, is not because i was born a Muslim. It is because i learned about Islam and i understand it and i am convinced with it.

    You speak of the rights of women. Let me tell you something!! Women in the west are being used as marketing tools with their bodies and beauty. If you accept that as freedom, excuse me if i dont.

    Women are being exploited there and let me remind you that the largest commited rapes are found in the west. Almost, in every second, a women is being raped. Look at the murders being commited there and the society how it is deteriorating and look at the structure of the society, mostly composed of all people. look at the families there and the percentages of the divorce that are there and how much it is affecting children and their futures and prospects in life.

    Now that is a system created by the most civilized countries as you think and it’s clearly proving its failure.

    look at the elders how they are left by their children in a hospital to take care of them, how the parents are no longer seeing their children, whom they suffered a lot to raise and give!!! No one feels with the other, that is the problem we are facing. Everyone looks for their own self interest, and let me tell you this is what is killing humanity and the society as a whole.

    your countries maybe important now, but check what happened with the soviets, they were once the strongest power in the world, and now look at them. this is what will happen to America and Europe.

    Check what happened with Rome and Furs, the greatest nations before Mohammad(pbuh) and check how they failed.

    Everything in this world, comes from a source so this life as it is all created will have to come from one source, i choose to believe its Allah.

    There is some powerful God looking after us, but the aim of our life if you understand Islam, is to worship Allah in the best way and do good in life. Work hard, help others, care for our families, neighbors, other nations and even animals. Allah distinguished us from angels, in that angels are not given choice, but we are.

    with that choice, Allah will make no interference. He gave it to us so we place our own path in life and he guided us by sending the prophet Mohammad (pbuh) to us with His message. Whomever will take these guidlines, will go through this test called life and try as much as capable to create good in it while fighting the evil.

    This life is not but a mere journey, for us that we shall pass and hopefully be ready for the next eternal life, that of which we take upon our actions and deeds in this life.

    If we have done well in this life, we shall be rewarded with an eternal stay in Heaven and if we have caused and left only bad things in life by our choices and intenionally, then we shall go to hell.

    Deaths happen, murders, rapes, injustice etc…… all this happen because people do them, and make the choice of doing them not because Allah told them to do them.

    Allah leads us to the right path, its we who stray and walk another.

    Life is called the dunia (which is the lowest thing in arabic in meaning). Let’s work for it as if we live forever and lets work for the after life as if we will die today.

    that way, both ways we will be winning.

    It’s unfortunate how we judge relegion by how some people behaved, and its also unfortunate and sad to hear some people judge our prophet because they just taken a pre-sterotyped image of how it is portrayed by some people.

    it’s sad, and it hurts to see intelligent people go astray from the true path just because they believe science is everything.

    Science is important, but it cant prove everything. And that is why we should believe that Allah exist. if science could prove everything, then we will know that Allah exist and we wont need to make our own choice in believing in God.

    Then nothing can be called faith.

    i wish all of you who wrote in this site and who didnt, athiests. agonists, christians, jews….

    i wish you all the best in life and afterlife, and that you reach enlightment, peace,and tranquility within your soul.

    you may still choose to think the way you do, but i hope i have caused you to find some things to ponder about and some answers to look for and placed in your hearts a bit of interest in looking back and reading relegion of Islam as it is and understanding why it calls for things sometimes we dont understand, and cant explain but its important that we follow, because who would know us better than our creater? who would know our needs more than Him?

    I still am challenging you Mr Perry and all those who read my message. Look around you, take one hour for yourself outdoors and ponder on how everything is.

    Dont go outdoors with pre-set ideas and pre-judged thoughts, please just give yourself that chance, that’s all i ask, and hope you share the experiance with me.

    Wish you all the best in life, and afterlife

    with all respect,

    i remain sara

  • Troy

    Although Uzma’s comment wasn’t well thought out and easily broken down (All passion, no planning), I’d still like to say nice job, Perry.

    I think most religious zealots are created by unquestionably accepting a holy text, or what their authority figures say it says, and most atheistsagnostic are born by critically reading the holy books and examining the history of how they came to be.

    Dennis,

    I’m sorry, but I think you made my case even stronger.

    Again, your question: “do you have any examples of Christians demanding submission to their faith from non-Christians that don’t go back into antiquity?”

    Taking Allahu Akhbar off the Iraqi national flag, ESPESIALLY if it doesn’t represent the Christian God is a perfect example of Christians demanding submission, and demanding that the Iraqi people display less of there own “Pagan” beliefs.

    Play “Devils Advocate” sometime and bring up the subject of removing “In God We Trust” from U.S. currency, or removing the 10 Commandments for a secular court of law, see what kind of reaction you get. You will get reactions of disgust and hatred. Even by some of the most liberal Christians. Sound familiar? Wouldn’t you imagine that type of reaction from Muslims?

    YOUR POINT: I think you had a point. I believe your point was that there is something “out there” with a vested interest in our daily lives, and somebody is right, or possibly, everybody is wrong. Something like that, right?

    Sure, it’s possible that there is a God with all the lesser Gods (angels and demon’s), all battling each other in some mystical realm. It is also possible that that there is some alien race out there attempting to “Assimilate” all other beings in their path, (very possible, you can’t prove there isn’t) but I’m not going to spend one minute of my life preparing for the Borg to cross our path. It would be ridiculous! I have no more, or less proof for an alien existence than I do for a mystical one. And any secularist, atheist, or agnostic, who believes in one and not the other, is writing off a form of reasoning for one belief, while using that very same reasoning to validate the other. This is very hypocritical.

    I’m not saying that getting rid of religion will cure all our problems, but it would eliminate a whole lot of the irrational hatred that inherently comes with it.

  • Troy

    pilchard,

    The problem is, the further “sencible” people research religious dogma, the more contradictory explanations they find for there meanings. Yours is one of many.

    Even different versions of the Bible state and define the 10 commandments differently.

    Did you latch on to Gods one true meaning of the 2nd Commandment, or just one you liked? How do you know?

  • Why, would you go through answering all these muslims, or defenders of Islam if Islam means to you so little?

    It is not Islam that matters to me, it is free speech… that matters to me a great deal.

    All the rest of what you say could just as easily be explained by “it was all created by invisible moon-pixies”. I am a Popperian and so am very aware that our senses can only directly experience a small fraction of reality, therefore me must use our reason to theorise about the true nature of everything, rather than just our senses.

    If you really want to come up with an even halfway reasonable (i.e. the product of reason) theory that is a ‘theory of everything’, you might find at least a starting place here, but you sure won’t find it in the pages of some garbled religious book.

  • Dennis Castle

    Sara writes: Always using other’s words to retort and rarely finding something not to disagree with …

    I don’t need to speak for Perry or anything, but, um, responding to what other people say is what we non-Muslims in the West call a conversation.

  • gina

    To all who have given their opinions, I respect u all.But there is something you should all know is that not all muslims are terrosits and not all muslims support “Osama Benladin” and the “Kaaida” because what happened in september 11, in england, and in all the other places which have witnessed similar attacks is absolutely and without a doubt inhuman and immoral and bad really really bad. All those people who have died in these attacks are victims and complete innocents. we have to ask our selves why do such poeple have to die in such a way, and pay the price for other peoples’ crimes…It really hurts..

    All I am saying is that the west should not judge a all moslims all around the world who have their religion just as the chirstains, the budists and the jews because of crimes committed by a group of sick people as “kaaeda” and “Benladen”.
    For example,here in lebanon, we facing every month similar terroristic explosions and threats from “Kaaed” warning our government with promises of future attacks of their own(other than the ones we are facing due to toher political causes) so u see they interfere with everything, even withthe things that are non of their business.The lebanese cause , is a lebanese issue, but my point is that please respect our faith and religion as most of the moslims do all around the world.
    Here in Lebanon , we know hwat is the meaning of respecting others faith and religions, since lebanon as a country has more than 18 different sects, including christains, moslim, and even atheists…
    We dont dereseve this western despise and hatred.Every person should really judge others and listen to them well before giving their final verdict…

  • I am, however, extremely curious how a self professed agnostic (One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God) can claim that religion is ridiculous.

    I thing God is most likely a fallacy, but even if there is some sort of ineffable ‘thing’ out there, the sheer complexity and variety of religions suggests that religion (rather than God) is just a psychological construct and therefore all the rituals and theology just social artifice. With that assumption made, claiming religion is special (i.e. something more profound than, say, Morris Dancing) does indeed making it seem ridiculous to me. That is my best theory on what I have available and thus I form a critical preference for it.

    In theory, a true agnostic would not be able to make such a claim because if they dont know if there is a God they cannot condemn those who believe in one.

    They you obviously do not understand the nature of forming theories on the nature of reality. If people hold up a falsified theory as still being correct (such as the Thomist theory that the existence of God can be proven by logic alone, say), I have no problem with writing that off as a falsified theory. And as religions are based on a whole host of falsified theories…

    Am I sure I am right? No, but that is my critical preference right now based on what I know.

  • Gina… I agree. Not all Muslims should be thought of as terrorists or intolerant bigots, not at all!

    It is just that the overwhelming majority of vocal Muslims do seem to take positions which suggest they are either enemies of tolerance or supporters of terrorism.

    I am absolutely certain that there are Muslims who strongly disagree with those views (I have met some) but until they also start making themselves heard, it is the loud supporters of intolerance who will be seen as the true face of Islam.

  • vince stephen

    DearTroy,

    Thank you – first time i even blogged anywhere, so the encouragement is welcome. For the record, I pretty much agree with you. I struggle with any dogmatic faith which claims divine authority, as that faith puts itself above interrogation. I’m also very impressed by you list of examples concerning Christianity and could add some of my own. However, it is a matter of extent in terms of international freedom of speech. Yes, the Vatican banned the “Like a Prayer video” and the church campaigned against Monty Python’s “Life of Brian,” but i really think it impossible that there would be an international uproar about piss-taking pictures of Jesus in a foreign newspaper. That said, there is no possibility of rational debate with anyone who claims to know God’s will. The problem is that the major global debates are now being defined (perhaps they always were) on religious grounds.

  • vince stephen

    People use the actions of Muslims in Gaza to illustrate the fact that Islam is a violent religion (some people have done so here). To do this is to grossly miss the point. Now, in the version of Koran that I read, there was a lot of fighting talk, but, although I believe that all religion does operate as a control mechanism, I also believe it is used to express, to negotiate and (in some cases) to highjack larger human concerns.

    What is happening in Gaza is a tit-for-tat series of murders on the side of both the Israelis and the Palestinians. The only difference is that the Israeli violence is state sanctioned. The Palestinian terrorists are engaged in a battle over land and influence – like almost any other terrorist organisation. It does not help that they are excluded from wider political debate. The rise in Islamic Fundamentalism is certainly linked, at least in part, to anger at the foreign policy of the West and the perceived way in which much of the Arab world has been side-lined on the world stage. . So what happens, it seems to me, is that an argument about foreign policy and Machiavellian political manoeuvres is turned into a holy war, at which point there seems to be little hope of resolution. It seems almost too obvious to mention that the way in which Britain and America used 9/11 as part of their argument for the invasion of Iraq (a secular Arab state which Bin Laden regarded as evil) did not help matters and actively encouraged people on both sides of the debate to view global politics as a religious forum.

    Islam can be used to justify suicide bombing – but there has to exist a situation in which large numbers of people are angry enough to carry that out. This is not simply a matter of brainwashing.

    What concerns me most is that by allowing these discussions to become a matter of holy crusade (or by ensuring that they do), Islamic fundamentalist are engaging in a debate which is completely irrelevant and, as I pointed out before, almost impossible to conduct. There are enormous issues which can easily be completely dismissed in the West by the application of the attitude; “Well you’re talking about a group of people who get upset about a few cartoons”. That seems the real tragedy to me

  • Dennis Castle

    Vince ~ you assume that those who believe in the knowability of God and his will are afraid of interrogation. That isn’t the case with me. I do not fear answering for anything in the New Testament. Don’t ask me to address wacko individual comments like Troy brought up, though. That’s shooting fish in a barrell.

  • Dennis Castle

    No, Vince, you are wrong. The issue at hand has nothing to do with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. It is absolutely about the Muslim view of the sanctity of their religion and its pre-eminence over freedom of thought, speech and the press. Tragedy or not, we really are talking about a group of people who get upset about a few cartoons.

  • we’s supposed to respect thier religion, the same way they respect any other religion, which they always do, i’ve been to islamic countries and they never made fun of any of religions, no matter what is it.
    what im sayin is that, religion is a very private mtter to the people who beleive in it, so lets say they made fun of Jesus, will denemark and the world accept it as a journalism freedom ?!!! well allow me to say i doubte it and i think NOT.
    Respect others, they will respect u.

  • View from California

    I stumbled across this thread and have enjoyed the give and take from all of you. My only counsel is that some of you should be more factual, to wit:

    1. The fact is (as much as it might hurt some of you to accept), the overwhelming western world-view is that Muslims and Islamists are radicalized, crazed killers. (Again, that’s not what I believe or many of you believe, but it is reality). Regardless of the Israeli occupation, the West’s thirst for oil, the WTO’s exploitatioin of Africa, etc. or any ‘excuse’ you want to posit. The Muslim image is one of death and senseless violence to EVERYONE who lives in the west or is not a fundamental Islamist.

    2. Fact: Only one or two of the cartoons could be considered funny. Most were simply an artist’s doodlings. In the West, we consider this free speech, as well as the freedom to make an ass out of one’s self. Publishing them was probably irresponsible considering the reaction the Danes knew would follow from the Muslim world. But, nevertheless, the fact is this is a simple case of freedom of speech; which is inherent to our philosophy in the West. Deal with it.

    3. Fact: Everyone is entitled to their own religeous or non-religeous beliefs. It is futile to argue someone off of their belief structure. Deal with it.

    4. Fact: You can twist any religeous dogma, scripture, world-view, or snippet of conversation to accomodate your argument (see ‘The O’Reily Factor’, ‘Bush Administration’ and/or ‘Cheny speak’ for references). What do you believe? Where and how did you form your opinion? Stop hiding behind other’s words and actions and tell us what YOU believe. And why.

    5. Fact: The fundamentalist Islamist have been doing an incredible job of unifying the Muslim world to their ideology since 1979. Iran and Syria lead the way. They have solid ‘freedom fighter’ brigades and allies in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indonesia, Europe, N. Africa, the Balkans, and other regions stretching from Iberia to China, Sudan to Great Britian. And they are breeding at unprecedented rates! Deal with it.

    6. Fact: The West (led by the U.S. and Britian) have neglected and disrespected the Muslim world (W. Asia and N. Africa in particular). This, of course, stems from capitalistic endeavors ~ re: money’s needed to run successful election campaigns in western democracies that is supplied in large amounts by oil companies, arms manufacturers and pharmaceutical companies.

    The end result ~ the cartoons published to date about the Prophet – Bless his name – were irreverent, but acceptable by western standards. No apology needed.

    The Muslim world will and has reacted in kind, perpetuating the western world-view of Muslims.

    Fundamentalistic Islamist continue to construct the new Caliphate and will be successful within 20-30 years. A clash of civilizations is inevitable.

    Deal with it.

  • Nigel Sands

    I appreciate the freedom of speech that most of the people in world defend and seek and are proud off especially those who believe that they are living in democratic countries. Under the “freedom of speech” they openly declare their opinions which I believe is their complete right.
    Most of the comments I have read on this page was more to convince the opposite side that what they have done is wrong. however, the weakness in this was the reasons as why they should not be doing it. It is because Mohamed was a nice person, honest, changed the arabs life to a better life and above all because he is a prophet. The opposite side speaks a different language and therefore they dont have an interest in what the moslems are saying about the goodness of Mohamed and thinks they have the right to say what they believe without considering the hurt to the feelings of moslems assuming that what they are saying it is a freedom of speech. Their concept could be right, however, the real life is completely different. In several occassions when we talk with others people they could be friends, partners or else and express our opinions in a sarcastic and rough way we hurt their feelings, they sometimes cry and sometimes get depressed and at the end we end making others suffer without adding any value.
    We can implement the freedom of speech concept and give our opinion in Mohamed or any other religious or political personality but in a positive manner that can reflect our views in a professional manner and get better results were we open and improve communication channels between people from different cultures without provoking and irritating their feelings.
    Lets talk and group our discussions under one objective to meet and not an objective to fight. I believe both points of views are valid however the way we have done it was the issue.
    We like it or not, we live this life each individual for a specific period and then it ends. regardless of our believes what will happen after that. Dont you think it is worth to live it with love and peace regardless if you live it as a non believer Bodizim, Jewish, Christian or Moslem.
    Ending my comment, non believers can say whatever they think about Mohamed through sarcasm and cartoons and Moslems can respond back but do we get any were!! I personaly think that we should be spending out time and unite our efforts to make the world a better place for all of us to live in and respect the private and holy believes of each culture and we maintain the rights of expressing our views in a professional manner.

  • Dennis Castle

    O, we’ll deal with it.

  • vince stephe

    Dennis,

    Are you seriously trying to tell me that terrorism in Gaza and anger towards the West in the Arab world is entirely motivated by religious belief? If so, we will have to agree to differ on the point. This seems to me far too dismissive and easy an explanation and an easy way to absolve everyone but Muslim clerics for the current geo-political situation. I personally find it more likely that the violence in Palestine, which exists to one extent or another in most colonised countries, has found a convenient structure in Islam and that Muslim clerics have found a convenient cause with which to strengthen their power base and importance. Yes, we are dealing with people who get upset about a few cartoons, but there are contextual reasons why fundamentalism appeals to people.

  • J. Danni Jensen

    Quote:
    “U.S. State Department Deplores “Offensive” Mohammad Cartoon”

    Again another Bush administration mistake…does he and the administration ever learn?

    – Smile….Im sorry

    but i CANT take any official US
    government serious since Bush became president. With this Bush regime its simply impossible.

    I could not agree more with Mr David Beito and his article on the HNN blog about Liberty and Freedom. USA government are having a double standard.

    Wasn’t it something about that some people were arrested in the US around election before he was re-elected. Some lawyer or something who were arrested or ‘silenced’ because he had opposing viewpoints of the Bush administration.

    I think I heard something about this. I must admit Im not totally sure but maybe some can here tell me exactly what the case was.

    My freedom of speech (and of the press) I set over any religious beliefs of mine). Im a sincere Christian who will fight for my rights of freedom to speak as I like. I dont believe in telling or trying to force my beliefs on others…even when some might blaspheming some of the Biblical person like Jesus.
    Yes, I dont like people being blasphemious but again I cannot and will not force my beliefs on others.

    So it is with this Muslims. Im proud to be a Dane and Im proud of Jyllands Posten, the daily printing the cartoons. Likewise I would defend Jyllands Posten with their freedom of speech.

    We live in a secular world and should never allow the Christian or the Muslims beliefs to manipulate with our freedom.

    I believe in throwing out those Imams who with purpose actually told lies about the whole situation.

    Personally I would like to follow any fanatic Muslim to the door (our border – and wish them a great life…in another country of the world).

    They are NOT gonna come here to Denmark and try to take away our freedom of speech!!!

    Im not a racist I actually have distanct friends who are Muslims.
    Luckily there are many liberal Muslims living here in Denmark.
    I sure wanna give them all my support and welcome and wish them the best life here in our country.

  • vince stephen

    Dennis,

    I would like to point out that I am in complete agreement with you, with regards to the Islamic attitude to freedom of speech and on the issue of the publication of these cartoons. And that is, of course, the real issue here.

    I simply do not find it helpful to focus (as some here have) on violence carried out with religious justification, in cases where the actual debate ought to be political. All this does is play into the hands of those Muslims who seek to define the world in terms their vision and their vision only, and into the hands of non-Muslims who find this situation useful. I find it not only irrelevant, but retro-active.

  • Dennis Castle

    Vince ~ the point of this thread has to do with the cartoons, not the need of souls for meaning and purpose. Our Muslim friends have no right to demand we acquiesce to their sensibilities just because they say so. I liked Perry’s argument earlier that the Muslims tried to conquer Europe before and failed so now the Europeans don’t have to do what the Muslims say. Sometimes arguments are just that simple. Trying to muddy the water with some politically correct “Corporations are bad because they are all corporationy … the West is bad because they use the Middle East’s oil … the Jews are bad because I’m a brain-dead anti-Semite” doesn’t get around the point of this thread: MUSLIMS DON’T GET VETO POWER OVER FREEDOM OF SPEECH even if they think they are more pious and holy than everyone or more victimized than everyone or for any other reason.

  • george solti

    i think that freedom of speech has its limits. for example, why is there such outrage when Iranian president said that holocaust was a myth and Israel should be moved to Europe? isn’t it also protected by the same form of absolute freedom of speech that’s being defended by the European press right now in the Islam incident? why is that only when Europeans offended others it is protected by freedom of speech and when the Europeans are offended the same freedom is not defended?

  • Dennis Castle

    George ~ I missed the part of the European protest where lives were threatened when the Iranian president spoke. Anyway, whoever wants to outlaw denying the Holocaust is wrong as well.

  • vince stephen

    Dennis,

    Did you just call me an anti-semite for suggesting that Israel (a nation state) is not beyond reproach?

    1.) I agree with you completely that Europe should not have to acquiesce to Islam and that the press and anybody else should have the right to ridicule any group or position. I think if you read my previous comments carefully you would find that I have at no time tried to “get around” this point.

    2.) Religion is, in fact, the search for meaning, or rather a cul-de-sac end to that search. And weren’t you the one presenting creation myths for our entertainment earlier?

    3.) I did not mention corporations. I do not think “the West” is intrinsically bad. At least, no more so than any enormous conglomerate of people. I suggest you re-read my post. It seems you have mistaken me for an apologist. I don’t seek to muddy the waters, I have no interest in defending Islam or any other religion. I was merely attempting to point out what I think is an unhelpful tangent about geo-politics; which is, by the way, never that simple.

  • Dennis Castle

    Vince ~ sorry, I wrote my response to you just after the “I’d like to give the world a Coke” post by Nigel and was a little worked up. Of course you didn’t blame anyone, you were careful in stating that there are many issues at play here. But, no offense, that seems too easy a response to this specific issue. There are rare times the issue is this cut-and-dried and regardless of extrinsic motivations the answer here is simple, simple, simple. Muslims can be absolutely right to be mad that we can draw Muhammad, but they are absolutely wrong to demand we cannot draw Muhammad. Let’s not shade the edges here because the drama is picking up and clarity is critical.

  • J. Danni Jensen

    George~ its people like you who totally twist things around…even when the Iranian president said this…like Dennis said:

    “I missed the part of the European protest where lives were threatened when the Iranian president spoke. Anyway, whoever wants to outlaw denying the Holocaust is wrong as well.”

    So far I havent heard about any Christian blowing up any others for when others have rediculed them…

    Yes, you might mention Iraq…I dont agree on that war either…like many of your fellow americans. You cannot force your views down on other people. It will not last.

    Also I dont wanna accept Muslims who lies in order to created all this violence in the Middle east. They should simply be thrown out of the country after my opinion…simply because they work against the basic fundament of our society of freedom.

    All other Muslims that accepts and will be willing to defend our freedom are very welcome here in Denmark!

    Luckily tonight I just heard that there are now Muslim people who are gonna stand and speak up here within the next couple of days…even they have had enough with this crazy group of Muslims who totally has gone crazy.

    These crazy Muslims just confirms why many people dont like the Muslims here. Sometimes people forget you cant generalize and say all Muslims are like this.

    Generally speaking – it is a fact though that its usually from that Muslim world down there that obviously creates these ‘type’ of people. Very few Christians who gets that fanatical. Maybe except for the Bush administration :)

    So we do have to keep an eye on the Muslims…but it doesnt mean they all have these fanatical views.

  • Troy

    No. There should be no limit to Freedom of speech.

    Anyone should be able to voice any opinion they want! Say, “JESUS NEVER EXSITED!” Say, “MUHAMMED WAS POSESSED BY THE DEVIL!” By all means, say, “THERE WAS NO HOLOCOUST!

    I bet there are many newspapers articles, journals, and books being written about how the Holocaust never existed. Let them be written!

    Someone may not like it, but their job is to dispute the claim, not outlaw the claim all together.

    The Church tortured and jailed Galileo for publishing the fact that the earth revolved around the Sun. (Now and undisputable fact) Today things are getting better. People may be offended. They may even say, “You can’t say that!”, but because of “Freedom of Speech” laws, no one can (legally) enforce it.

    The Church now has to defend, justify, or even alter the meaning of their Dogma to fit what is the undeniable truth. Individuals can now choose to read and write anything they want. Communities can speak out against it, which is also their purgative. No one can tell them they can’t, but no one should be denied the liberty to express their views

  • vince stephen

    Dennis,

    Your apology not only accepted, but greatly appreciated.

    I agree that the Islamic reaction to these cartoons has been, in general, nothing short of frightening and, in some cases, disgusting. I think I’ve made my feelings about freedom of speech fairly clear at this point. I stand by my other assertions and I think they are important in relation to some of the other comments here, but I agree that where the issues of censorship and freedom of the press are concerned the important thing is that no one and no group should be excluded or claim special dispensation. Certainly threats of violent reprisal are utterly beyond defence. I write this having just watched politicians in my country condemning the re-publication of the pictures. I begin to see your point about clarity being critical.

    And perhaps I should apologise for my clumsy phrasing earlier with regard to “anyone who believes they know God’s will.” I was referring to the rigidly dogmatic, not to anyone with faith.

  • maher

    i think whoever did these picture, is an unbeliver. if he was reflecting his thought, he should of showed his thought by writing, but what he did was reflected to what kind of person is, it seems like he doesn’t believe in having prophets in this world.

  • Dennis Castle

    Maher ~ who exactly are you to tell someone what they can or cannot draw? How do you know if this person is a believer or not? What does having prophets in the world have to do with drawing a picture?

  • George

    I will note that other offended groups (such as the Jewish rabbis depicetd as cannibals on prime time Syrian TV) have not threatened with bombs and killings. I suppose they are just not equal to islamofascists in their love of humankind.

  • doener kebab

    Dear insulted islami

    Poor old painted muhamed (Piss Be Upon Him – sorry for my bad English). So many centuries kept in secret and all of a sudden… There he is!

    It’s time to draw the whole coran as a comic book as the content can’t be taken as serious.

    Have a nice time and…

    ……allah u (motherf)***(b)ar

  • muslim

    muslim’s will kill everybody does that

  • Dennis Castle

    Impressive demonstrators in London letting us all know what the religion of peace thinks of freedom of thought, speech and the press:

    http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004448.htm

  • Az

    Interesting debate which has transpired after the first batch of quite blatently racist posts. As a muslim I find this whole issue absolutely fascinating as it seems hardline positions seemed to have been formed on both sides with the defenders of freedom of expression absolute v muslim absolutionists. Life is unfortunately not so black and white.

    My personal view is that freedom of expression is not absolute (to use the age old example of not being able to shout fire in a cinema) we should consider the implications of our actions and so whilst the Danish newspaper and others absolutely have the right to publish what they want they should have considered the likely reaction and were unwise to publish given the likely scale of offense and potential for violence.

    This does not however mean that Islam is without repproach, As a religion Islam is going through a challenging phase with Islamist political parties going through a popular period (Hamas, Muslim Brotherhood, Ahmedinajad in Iran) not to mention the Salafist-Jihadi ‘Al-Qaeda’ organisations- for the most part these are backward looking organisations which are trying to impose far too literalist intepretation and not one in touch with modern realities – however their popularity is as a result of western hypocrisy and double-dealing with the Islamic world (including the propping up of the corrupt monarchies and dicatatorships in the middle-east) as much as anything else… but I guess thats a whole different debate.

    The cartoons themselves of which there has been little debate I find rather racist in undertone and of little value in any real debate – I only wish that most of the vocal muslims governments and organisations had ignored them in the way they deserve rather than elevating them to an undeserving platform.

    What I dislike is the beginning of a nasty anti-Islamism (or Islamaphobia as some call it) on a par with anti-semitism (which interestingly is stamped on much more virulently) particularly in continental europe. In the UK interestingly the far-right have adopted specific anti-muslim campaigns as its easier for them to get away with it. Interesting that the many ‘secular muslims’ (some would say thats an oxymoron but i’d disagree) in Continental Europe are being edged out to the fringes of their societies and into less tolerant more literalist Islamist organisations by this attitude.

    Az

  • Dennis Castle

    Az ~ if you are saying decent people shouldn’t go out of their way to insult someone or their faith for no reason then that has been stated by nearly every “freedom of speech” person on this thread. However if you are saying that drawing a picture of Muhammad should be against the law in the same way that yelling “fire” in a theater is, well, my reasonable sounding friend, you actually are in the same camp as the anti-freedom folks. If I am wrong, then you have yet to make clear your position on this matter.

    Come now, we have all been waiting for days for a reasonable sounding Muslim to categorically state that Muslims have no right to demand that non-Muslims acquiesce to their sensibilities. Are you that person?

  • Q8 expat

    I have spent a great deal of my morning following this thread after attempting to find reasonable images of what all the fuss is about.

    Teaching Theory of Knowledge (a course about thinking) in a school where 75% of the students are Muslim has brought about an interesting perspective. Debates are about respect for others beliefs and being educated about them. Some of these threads take that spirit, others are just inherently hateful.

    To those of you championing “freedom of speech” I ask “at what cost?” or to perhaps consider the purpose in mind. What would you accept or not accept posted on the bus shelters of your nation? Are you prepared to accept “anything” (think about standing waiting for the bus with your eight year old daughter).

    To those deeply offended by the cartoons, I ask what is truly offending you? Is it the name of the prophet and his visual depiction or is it the attempts at poking fun at some aspects of the daily way of life here in the Middle East. As an example, in Kuwait, where women just recently got the right to vote, a cartoon such as the one with two covered women and the man with the “reverse image cover” black “blindfold” makes a valid point about the repression of women and the reluctance to change by some (not as many as you might think) traditionalist men. From a western point of view (and one that is shared by many Muslims here), the ongoing battle by women for respect and an equal place in society is a REAL issue. So is it the cartoon that is offensive or is it the context that it was placed in?

    Someone made a point about women having to cover in Kuwait. Not true, buy a plane ticket and visit the Middle East, you will be surpised what you find. Better yet, visit your local university and try to find some students from Kuwait. Talk to them, you might find it enlightening.

    The real problem is the hatred. Muslims, please stop focussing on how offended you are and try educating.

    Freedom of whatever, sparking Islamic rage by posting insensitive cartoons (ie pictoral representation of the Prophet) only provokes and for what purpose .. so we can have a laugh (most of you didn’t seem to find the cartoons funny anyhow).
    Freedom of speechers, just for one minute recognize that there is legitimate reason for offense and accept that. Chanting the “freedom of speech” justification does not change the fact that people (many people) are offended (whether you believe they should be or not it is also their RIGHT). What purpose does that serve?

    I can’t wait till the Danish papers commission a series of cartoons about the Pope. I have a really good idea involving a condom and an altar boy. Do you think freedom of speech will cut it there?

  • Nadia

    I was unfortunately able to see the blasphemous drawings these Danish artists consider art or humorous. Granted many people out there do not like us or agree with our views but to disrespect one of the leading prophets of religion history is absolutely beyond my imagination. So far many of our fellow Arab countries have responded with harsh criticism and punishment, which I utterly agree with because this is a jaw-dropping event.

    How dare they do this! Not only are they feeding the monster but they are pounding on this unstable political world we live in! If they do not like us or our views fine! Think what you will because every one is entitled to their opinion. I don’t even know what else to say because I really don’t think they understand the ramifications of this insipid, and ultimately, avoidable act!

    Fuel the monster Denmark, that’s exactly what you want to do when you are shaking in your boots. May Allah bless all the innocent people that will perish because of this, and may he watch over my brothers who will become crazed with anger and revenge. May Allah bless us all.

    ps. to all you stupid danes and/or westerners who laugh and believe that this is freedom of speech i hope it is you that suffers. i hope it is you that suffers because of the pain you have caused others…

  • Deleted by Admin. That was excessive rudeness and this is private property

  • URA Redneck

    Note to evL

    I guess he now knows what your Mom tastes like

  • Nadia

    I SAY U WESTERNS SHOULD GROW UP, START TALKING LIKE ADULTS AND STOP BEING RACISTS ABOUT MUSLIMS AND ARABS!!

  • doener kebab

    Good Point Nadja

    Having spent my holidays in the late 70ties in Maroc I visited a bazaar, just browsing through the different shops, receiving hospitality with tea I was about to leave the bazaar I was strongly urged to buy something. On my question:

    “What will happen if I don’t buy?”

    The answer was:

    “If you don’t buy we will kill you?” (With a big laugh)

    Is this the sense of humour, Arabs know? Again It was some decades before all the debates after 9/11. But it shows: Thread was already given to Westerners longer time ago.

    So, Arabs don’t be insulted it is just the answer to statements having been given since a longer period.

    I know it was a joke in Maroc, but behind all jokes there is a small portion of the truth.

    So the cartoons of Muhamed was a joke – but some truth lies behind it.

    Kindest regards

    Döner Kebab

  • I SAY U WESTERNS SHOULD GROW UP, START TALKING LIKE ADULTS AND STOP BEING RACISTS ABOUT MUSLIMS AND ARABS!!

    “Muslims” are not a race.

    How dare they do this!

    Because in the west, and last time I looked Denmark was in the west, people generally have the right to to say what they want as long as they are not threatening anyone. You do not have to like it but that is how it works here.

    ps. to all you stupid danes and/or westerners who laugh and believe that this is freedom of speech i hope it is you that suffers. i hope it is you that suffers because of the pain you have caused others…

    So… your injured feeling justify violence. I see. You are a fine one to talk about ‘growing up’, you are like some child in a school yard screaming incoherently. In truth you are beneath contempt. A meeting of the minds is impossible with someone like you. You value your religion, which means nothing to most people in the west, we value freedom of expression and the primacy of secular rights, which means nothing to you. As you will not tolerate our view, why should we tolerate you?

    And therein also lies an interesting element: people in the west have vastly more power at their disposal, military, economic and (although most Muslims will hate to agree) cultural power, as clearly for better or worse, ours is the most influential culture by a large margin. Muslims are arguing their position from a very weak position and they rely on western restraint to argue it at all. When people march down the streets in London carrying threatening signs, the fact is the state could crush their dissent at any time. Western states could just start mass deportations of Muslims living here as so many Muslims have failed to assimilate that they still live in easy to identify communities. Yet none of those things are being done. Why? Because Muslims can scream outrage all they like about their dark ages Prophet being insulted and a few nut jobs can even murder the odd film director in Holland, but in truth Muslims are not yet that big a threat to the lives of most people.

    When people in the west do start feeling that the nature of their day to day lives is being changed by people they have very little in common with, then things start to happen. And as I value cosmopolitanism and tolerance, that will be unfortunate because the first thing that will happen is tolerance will simply end.

    Bin Laden hated how the US had influence in the Middle East and so he did something involving airliners full of civilians. Result? The US now has an ARMY in the Middle East and the most of the Taliban is now rotting in graveyards. Well that didn’t quite as you expected, did it Osama? When you count on the restraint of others far more powerful than you to do what you are doing, you are the one who needs to really think before doing something.

    What makes this Danish incident interesting is that if Muslims got their way and governments start restricting freedoms to appease Muslims, they will have started to effect the lives of millions of normal western people and that, I suspect, is when people will start to change their governments and start doing things that at the moment are unthinkable and that is not something I would welcome at all. Many Muslims are angry. Ponder what happens when people a great deal more powerful than you get angry. Consider that next time you threaten someone.

  • Q8 expat


    I SAY U WESTERNS SHOULD GROW UP, START TALKING LIKE ADULTS AND STOP BEING RACISTS ABOUT MUSLIMS AND ARABS!!

    Hey Nadia

    Most “educated” westerners are tolerant, accepting and not “racist”. I have lived in the Middle East for 10 years (5 in Bahrain and 5 in Kuwait) and believe that the “racist” paintbrush can be held by both hands.

    Many westerners I know only understand the Muslim outrage as a result of our years spent living here and learning about other cultures and religions. Suggesting that any Westerners/Danes are “stupid” because they may find humor (albeit black humor) in some of the cartoons is only testament to your own narrowmindedness (the pot calling the kettle black so to speak).

    I know why the representation of the prophet is offensive, but I also find some truth (nothing to do with the prophet) in some of the cartoons. What is it you fear about these truths? (example the oppression of women).

    What is racism anyway? Ask a Filipina housemaid, an Indian construction worker, or an Egyptian office worker what type of treatment they receive in Kuwait. Ask any western expat about who ends up paying in a traffic accident with a Kuwaiti.

    Choose your words carefully

  • sara

    Mr. Perry,

    Finally, and to think of what we all Muslims have been doing!!!! We were actually trying to defend something that actually doesn’t need us to be defending it. Islam is beyond being judged, or defended. Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) has a complete history to prove his greatness.
    Perhaps, driven by our love, I have to confess we were choosing the wrong way to state our opinions. However, not for long. It’s time I played your game and analyzed you from your point of view.

    Things became clear, after I wrote you my last long message, and you replied with few lines and after one of the participators message, Nigel clearly explained the moderate plan of action that benefits both Muslims and non-Muslims and non-believers in general.
    And I know now where your idea of faith stands among those.

    You see my blindness was actually because I judged you for a smart man, and to think how wrong I was!!!!

    I actually thought that you are founder or co-founder of this website in order to create a table where all people would meet, leaving their prejudice and biased ideas behind, and open up to communicate freely together and perhaps find the real solution for all this controversial issue. Thinking of how I actually thought you were really interested in that!!!

    How wrong I was.

    After looking up in your answer, to my previous challenge, I noticed how actually you were weak enough to disregard answering any of the imposed questions and actually re-rotating the answer to a website, without actually bothering to take a moment and think, perhaps, I should take the challenge. After all, I am coming to this meeting table to discuss with others and find the answers of mine.

    However, you did nothing of that. What re-confirmed my thinking was that you actually didn’t bother to reply to a very smart insight declared by Nigel.

    You bring out in the minds of people when they visit your site, that actually your intentions are so noble and your interest is to make us all come to a common ground.

    As you say, All I am asking you is to tolerate me, as I tolerate you.

    You see I was taught in school that a discussion has to have an objective, like everything else. Usually the objective is to reach a consensus between both parties or at least to cause some kind of understanding from both parties.

    However, looking back at your so predictable answers, and always using same reason, “we want you to have tolerance of us and have freedom of speech as we do”.

    You never bothered to actually re-consider your position or actually understand the other’s opinion; too blinded by your own ideas.

    You see I forgot that you are an entrepreneur and in the end, all this is to you is a business, nothing else.

    You are happy with all those Muslims and non-Muslims and non-believers coming to your site and with that your site is becoming more visited which means more money to your pocket.

    Also, I admired all the way how you took your own stand in all the discussions and taken your ideas as the voice of reason and those of others as mere participations that eventually lead to extra profit.

    I hope your IQ is strong enough to understand what I am saying, or your courage is there enough to publish this and accept my simple FREEDOM OF SPEECH!!!

    For isn’t that what you have been calling for all the way?

    If I were to believe your freedom of speech has no limits, I would judge you and say, how much I pity your insights and your loss of path. I would study you psychologically and according to your profile I would simply say, a person who actually fears of others being right sometimes, who actually is so disappointed of religion due to perhaps a previous family problems or past experiences of life.

    After all, you believe humans created religion because they need to believe there is a God. Wouldn’t that mean that you created your own ideas in escape to your actual belonging or that perhaps you have done so much wrong in life that you refuse someone is above you which whether you like it or not, will check your actions one day and will reward or punish you.

    I hoped your decision of creating this website, was to join people together to bring again the peace you claim religion took away. Well, you are a man who is doing that, you are happy to be biased and to be insulting to others feelings and holy believes.
    Who is then causing problems and fights among this world? You are a non-believer and you are doing your part of it. How then can you accuse religion for this???

    Your goal, admit, is profit not the actual freedom of speech you preach people about. If you believed in freedom of speech, then you would have believed in the point of actually bringing this discussion all about and would have helped in creating a common ground for all participators.

    Perhaps you should take the example of those who want to wear the scarf in france and are forbidden too. Isnt that not part of human freedom? Who some girls are allowed to undress the way they like and some aren’t allowed to dress?

    It’s weird what you call freedom of speech, and don’t be so surprised if we don’t reach a common opinion because you chose the war, and you don’t wish to reach a common ground where we all can actually agree.

    Before you come to the meeting table, you have to keep the intention inside of you that you want to reach a solution. Else you won’t.

    And let me add, please go back and read your answers and look how even they are replied to all different people, by the same excuse, what you call freedom of speech and I call “having the rudeness to insult others and disrespect them”

    What astonishes me also, how predictable your answers are always and how much they lack innovation.

    Toooooo bad.

    All that I ask now is of you the boldness and the freedom of speech you speak about to make this all out in the website.

    What is my message to all participants who agree, and Muslims in particular?

    Please BOYCUTT THIS WEBSITE, because you would be wasting your time writing in it when actually you know it’s not going to end anywhere.

    He clearly agrees with Denmark stand, and as though he is promoting for it. Let’s boycott his website and don’t give him the pleasure of the publicity he is having and the return on investment he did.

    By the way if you accept or don’t accept my opinion, I would be right according to your freedom of speech scale. Can you figure how!!!

    Oh I forgot to accuse you of something else, you are choosing this website to make your ideas spread, that’s all. You don’t care about others. You only care about yourself.

    with all respect :)

  • Nadia

    As Muslims we believe in all religions and we respect all believes and we suppose that the other respect our believes and religion and not make a fun of our prophet Mohamed (PBUH) in order to make Danish people laugh .it is never happen that Muslim people harm or make fun in the area of religion or believes and we respect who respect us, but we can’t see any respect here of course because hatred, I want to know what you don’t like in Islam? many well known doctors, artists, scientists, authors from different countries in the world leave their religions and believes and they entered Islam because they found the truth and this truth existing in all human being’s instinct the pure instinct which God created us with and it will be the evidence to those who claim that they don’t know Islam. I’m saying pure instinct because Islam is your instinct. **Just think about it who knows maybe your life will be changed for ever**.

  • Nadia

    As Muslims we believe in all religions and we respect all believes and we suppose that the other respect our believes and religion and not make a fun of our prophet Mohamed (PBUH) in order to make Danish people laugh .it is never happen that Muslim people harm or make fun in the area of religion or believes and we respect who respect us, but we can’t see any respect here of course because hatred, I want to know what you don’t like in Islam? many well known doctors, artists, scientists, authors from different countries in the world leave their religions and believes and they entered Islam because they found the truth and this truth existing in all human being’s instinct the pure instinct which God created us with and it will be the evidence to those who claim that they don’t know Islam. I’m saying pure instinct because Islam is your instinct. **Just think about it who knows maybe your life will be changed for ever**.

  • Az

    Firstly Dennis – I think Saleem was the first muslim to pretty much say it so I know that i’m alone in being a muslim who doesn’t think these cartoons should be banned or prohibited by law. That doesn’t however mean that every newspaper (as is the case now) should be publishing them when they obviously cause huge offence.. there is a difference from being able and actually doing something – I am not prohibited in Britain from shouting ‘Fire’ in a Cinema but I don’t do it because of the potential consequences of my actions even if I think the response of people is irrational as there is no smoke or flames.. that is called responsibility something we as decent humans should also exercise. As for you stating that most people on the thread would agree with the fact that decent people shouldn’t go out of their way to insult their faith for no reason.. I’m not sure actually I think most of the posters actually think this should be done..

    Oh and by the way lets not hide the racism in these cartoon caricatures.. they are the usual evil arab figurines with the usual themes.. and to use the argument muslims are not a race is a poor argument to hide behind Perry, neither are Jews mate. The cartoons are as racist as are hook nosed caricatures of Jews.

    Oh and don’t even start on the 9/11 bombing response – Didn’t it achieve everything Osama wanted? We have a battlefield in the middle-east in a war the US can’t win with a much wider front than there was ever before, We have an increase in polarised views leading to even more Supporters of Bin Laden than ever before. Lets face it the response to 9/11 was a military success for Osama and the Salafists not a defeat.

    One final thought – if this cartoon had been virulently anti-semitic to an extent that the Jewish lobby had asked it to be removed would those same newspapers who are now championing the freedom to publish be as vocal? ..Somehow i doubt it, thats the inherent anti-Islamism that is the atmosphere in Continental europe at present.

  • Dennis Castle

    Sara ~ trying to challenge Perry towards Islam was your noble goal and I, for one, was impressed by your earlier impassioned plea. I respect everything you wrote and the spirit inwhich you wrote it.

    Perry’s acknowledgement and cognitive assent (or lack thereof) to your proposal is not the point of this thread. You and your boycott are missing the objective, which is to clarify what this controversy is all about and to air these differences and see if there is a Westerner who will say:

    O, I get it, everyone should submit their will to the sensitivities of Muslims and make it illegal to do certain things that will offend them.

    … or we are waiting for a Muslim to say:

    O, I get it, I don’t have the right to tell others what to do, say or think unless they have given me that authority through a democratic process.

    You see, Sara, your sincere convictions are beside the point except for where they advance this discussion. Perry’s opinions carry the exact same weight and no more. Stop being insecure, take ownership of this dynamic give-and-take and tell us why you have the right to deny me freedom of thought, speech or the press and provide your argument. You’ve already said “because God told me” and I hope you have gathered that, because that argument is ultimately subjective, that we have found it unconvincing. Others have said “we will kill you for doing that”, and that argument has failed to impress as well. The most convincing one to me (so far) has been “it isn’t nice to draw Muhammad because it hurts my feelings”, which is excellent, as far as it goes, but the ramifications of that particular argument are too far reaching to be definitive (who gets to decide where hurt feelings start trumping legitimate discourse?) and so we need more to reach the conclusion you would like to lead us to. Do you have anything else?

  • Troy

    Sarah,

    Was your intent to “Buycutt” this web site? Well done.

    I don’t think the owner’s intent was for a bunch of random bloggers from across the world to miraculously come up with a world solution to all of this. Simply to exchange point of view, like yours. Thank you for your input.

    Believe it, or not. I bet your input was well received by most. Most fellow Muslims will agree with you and stand by what you said, although it was a bit rambling (but written communication is tough when you’re pissed. I’ll give you that.) And to us “non-believers” It gave us a great insight to others point of view and thought process. This is invaluable to those of us who want to dispute your point of view, as my statements should be valuable to you.

    Hey! People may even “buycott” this web site! And this is exactly how one should handle “Free speech” they do not approve of. Good for you! But no one should outlaw this site! Those who choose to visit and write, as you did, shouldn’t be denied the opportunity.

    Q8,

    I would love to see that cartoon of the Pope, a condom, and an Altar boy. I bet it would be a great joke. Hmmm…and with quite a bit of truth behind it.

    Yes, there is a cost to any freedom. I believe the cost of Freedom of speech greatly outweighs it’s consequences. I agree, there are social consequences to your speech. Such as people speaking out against you, disliking you, or even boycotting your product. All reasonable ways to handle speech you don’t like or don’t agree with. But you shouldn’t litigate the topic to the point it can’t be expressed, in any form.

    The 8 year old girl on the bus example. Again…you’re right, up to a point. I believe you are using public advertisement as an example. I notice, where I live, there isn’t any offensive public advertising. Not because there is any litigation against it, but because if they did have offensive advertising, they wouldn’t sell their product (Social Consequences).

    I may say something you dislike.

    Refer to my “No. There should be no limit to Freedom of Speech”, entry.
    You, in return, are allowed to refute my statement in anyway you like. You may ask the community to boycott me, socially, or economically. I may not care and repeat my statement, or I may fold and retract.

    You might demand an apology to my statement. I may or may not give one. O.K….ok…In this case I will. I’m sorry, Muhammad wasn’t possessed by the Devil, and the Holocaust did happen……but I still don’t believe Jesus existed. (Well 2/3 of it anyway)

    See how that works! Free, unrestrained dialoged. We choose to say what we want and deal with the consequences in a way we feel is proper. But no one tells us we can’t express our point of view. I like that system.

  • Dennis Castle

    Az ~ thank you for letting everyone know that the idea of freedom of speech is both understood and acceptable to a person who believes in the Koran and is a devout Muslim. I write it this way because it proves a side-point of my own. I keep reading how ideas like “women’s rights” or “freedom of speech” or the concept of democracy is somehow beyond the evolution of Arabs and/or Muslims and have found that argument extremely offensive, insulting and ridiculous. It is both patronizing and condescending to assume any adult, regardless of culture, is beneath a desire for respect and decency. I have found those with this patronizing attitude mostly on the left side of the political spectrum and they use it to criticize to criticize our involvement in the Middle East, but all of this, as I mentioned, is a side-point of my own.

    You make a good clarification about the “racist” angle. Though, of course, Islam is not a race so Perry isn’t hiding behind anything. You are correct, a hook-nosed Jewish cartoon would be much harder to get printed (though someone earlier in this thread wrote about a Syrian TV show depicting Jewish Rabbi’s as being cannibals, so this line of Islamic respect for other religions wears a bit thin) in Europe, and, although they paid for that deference with 6 –12 million souls, it is a definite point. Though, the cartoons were depicting an Arab guy from 1400 years ago, so they can’t really draw a Chinese guy in a business suit can they?

    Now, your Osama diatribe cracked me up. Yeah, Osama is a big winner and we are fighting a war we can’t win. What are you talking about? The Taliban went down after we dropped a few bombs and the Northern army swept in, I call that victory. Saddam’s impressive revolutionary guard lasted 17 days before their government fled; I call that victory as well. We could go home now and leave it all in chaos if we wanted, and it wouldn’t change our victory one bit, but we aren’t that way.

    Seriously, this whole threat thing is silly. Although we are talking about the freedom to draw a cartoon of Muhammad, the other side always starts talking about killing people. Well, the main characteristic of the American military response to the War on Terrorism is the magnitude of their restraint. Now, Muslims have the will of Allah and the ability to do serious damage to Western interests and are, according to the Iranian President, clearly willing to go there. The West can light up everything from Morocco to Malaysia like the surface of the Sun in about 45 minutes. The argument that Osama is winning or that the West needs to submit to Muslims is not rational.

  • Az

    Dennis – how can you not see that Osama is winning? Afghanistan is in the same chaotic state it has always been – we’ve replaced the Taliban with the Northern Alliance – those well known upholders of human rights and freedom.. Osama is still lurking in the backgropund somewhere, Iraq has turned from a stable secular dictatorship into a country fissured by racial and religous divides where thousands are dying every day.. do you really think this is ‘victory’.. see this is the problem this isn’t some conventional war where you have won once you have defeated a government its a war of ideas and when you succumb to fighting that war on the same battlefield you become lessened.. The US is falling into the same trap that Israael fell into a long time ago thinking that millitary might in itself can suppress those who disagree with you.. when all it leads to is more violence – Al Qaeda is an idea not a coherent organisation.. you can’t win by knocking over a few governments you win by persuading people that you are not hypocritical in your treatment of world issues, that your motives are not imperialist and that you value all lives equally not just western ones.

    Oh and as for the protestors I hold no truck for those advocating violence against the cartoonists or the newspapers but at the same time I think people have the same right to protest that people have to publish and some of the crude attacks on this are ironic.. as Biko once said (Apologies Gary Younge) ‘ Not only are whites kicking us; they are telling us how to react to being kicked’

  • I am with Dennis on this… I cannot see how the US is not winning, but of course that depends on what you mean by ‘win’ and what your objectives are. My desires and motivations are not the same as the US government, so for me seeing Ba’athism in Iraq destroyed is a victory almost (but not quite) regardless of what comes next.

    If the US pulled out tomorrow and Iraq shoots it out over the future (i.e. splits into the three sustainable elements Iraq should be split into), what the US will have acchieved is to make it clear that no nation (at least no Islamic nation) that wants to survive as a nation-state can threaten the USA post-9/11. Ditto (doubly so) for Afghanistan.

    Even if the USA cannot effortlessly occupy a country, they can simply destroy it as a nation-state any time they wish to. That is now established beyond any doubt.

    Is that reasonable or just? Well that is a whole different discussion for another time (and my views might surprise you), but that IS the reality and it is hard not to see how it has radically changed the political reality in the Middle East and elsewhere.

  • Az

    So much for freedom of expression when I can’t post my reply on this board…

  • Huh? What is stopping you? Your views are well considered and most welcome!

  • Occasionally the anti-spambot defences will block a comment that uses certain key words that are common in spams, so if you are having a problem posting, drop me an e-mail.

  • az

    something in your spam checker methinks.. not sure what i wrote which counted as spam..

  • Dennis Castle

    I’m all for protest and discourse and dialogue. I honor those who wish to clarify issues without burning an embassy or threatening people’s lives. Outrage over the drawings is perfectly fine. But if an argument begins with threats and ends in violence then that tells me that it mustn’t have been very persuasive on its own merit.

    If you really think that Osama is winning and that the overthrow of the Taliban and Saddam is not victory, then I would hate to see what you thought defeat looked like. Your idea that we have to coerce people into seeing things our way in order to claim victory is silly, not only will that never happen but that was never our intention in the first place. Our primary goal was to take out their leadership. It would be nice if we could leave them with a stable, representative government but that, of course, is ultimately their call not ours. If Iraq wishes to descend into civil war then that isn’t America’s loss, nor is it Osama’s victory. If a nascent government rises from the ashes that support Osama or another dictatorship then we have shown our ability and our will to address that concern in a manner that leaves no room for doubt (with or without allies). No matter how this all plays out, Osama cannot win and we cannot lose.

    It is our desire to live peacefully, but if that doesn’t include freedom and liberty then we are even more willing to fight. Muslims in the news this past week think they can intimidate the world into submitting to their whim by acts of violence and repugnant threats of massacre. Westerners are not going to genuflect to Islam. Nor would we ask Muslims to genuflect to us.

    Freedom can be tempered with responsibility, but it can only be imposed through a democratic process. I would encourage our Muslim friends to either listen to Az regarding this controversy or come up with a convincing argument that will make it through a legislature.

  • Beacause Samizdata gets about 20,000 visitors a day, we are a magnet for spammers, so the automatic filters are an absolute necessity unfortunatly. Alas they are sometimes overzelous and it is not always clear what they are objecting to :-(

  • Freedom can be tempered with responsibility, but it can only be imposed through a democratic process. I would encourage our Muslim friends to either listen to Az regarding this controversy or come up with a convincing argument that will make it through a legislature.

    And that is where I almost completely disagree with you. I really do not give a damn about democracy and I think it is vastly over rated. It is not a desireable ends, just a means to an ends and that end is liberty.

    The reason I think the US has a better system of government than the UK is because the US’s Republic is significently less democratic that UK’s Parliamentary democracy. The US constitution (or more specifically the Bill of Rights) puts whole areas of civil liberty beyond the scope of change via the (democratic) political process, enshrining things like freedom of speech and seperation of church and state as axioms (at least in theory).

    Just because a person controls a majority of votes, that does not make any abridgement of the civil liberties of others moral just because it is politically sanctioned. Even if a majority of people want to impose tyranny, that does not make it acceptable. A tyranny of the majority is still a tyranny. Making something legal does not make it moral.

  • doener kebab

    “In life – in family and in society as well – one needs more guts to smoothen out things than to destroy”
    J.P.Maitre Swiss polititician

    Destruction has never been the answer to any injustice in this world no matter what social, territorial, familiar, religious background.

    Too the muslims violence brings counter violence. Is it a victory to win battles against established western democracies? Was it a victory to blow up 3 Swissair planes in the 70ties? Was it a victory to attack the Olympic games in 72? Was it a victory to constantly attack Western institutions? Was it a victory to attack the US on mainland in 2001?
    Is it a victory as per today to attack Danmark in such a way?

    I clearly state NO!

    Without such reactions against Denmark no one – including me – would have looked at or downloaded those cartoons.

    With every overreaction muslim world looses more sympathies. Who is going to suffer? Not the radicals but the well established muslims. The ones assimilated without giving up their roots!

    How many christian churches are in Iran? How many in Saudi Arabia?
    How many Saudis, Kuwaities, Syrian, Palestinians (Arafat (?), (Iranian now less) have their Swiss bank accounts and get interest and capital gains? How is it with the rule of taking interest in islamic world?

    Any muslim with guts out there? Or only destroyers?

    So if you would really destroy then just bomb an oil tanker in the street of Hormuz or Suez but if you are searching co-existence let me assure you there are ways…..

    ……but it needs guts and not burning, protesting, bocotting or even bombing cowards.

  • Dennis Castle

    Perry ~ I should have been more careful. As an American I assume a Bill of Rights that transcend popular opinion. I was instead looking at the fact that Freedom is not absolute and wanted to state the general boundary.

  • Az

    Dennis – defeat in this case is when Salafists have many more recruits to the cause leading to even more terrorist outrages.

    Taking out the leaders is not what its all about – and who said anything about coercing anybody to a different viewpoint. Actions count far more than words in the battle of ideas so cracking down on illiberal regimes would be the first step irregardless of whether they are friend of foe (the Saudis being the ones at the top of the list along with Israel). In this way Western actions show that when we talk about Tolerance and Respect we don’t differentiate on what colour or creed or how big your bank balance is..

    The Islamic world has more than its fair share of problems of its own making however recent western actions have hindered the process of these being resolved rather than helped.

    Perry – I mailed you the ‘spam’

  • Dennis Castle

    Az ~ your “recruitment” point is interesting and makes me think of the Hamas victory in Palestine. Perhaps democracy revealed the true nature of Palestinians, which is accurately represented by Hamas. In the same way, perhaps this “recruitment” argument is really just the fact that true adherents of Islam are accurately represented by Al Queda.

  • Dennis Castle

    Here is a video that puts this discussion into perspective:

    http://danishcartoons.ytmnd.com/

  • Az

    Hamas won because of there was noone else.. the secular alternative was destroyed by it not delivering Peace, Stability or even Self-respect.. It was as much a vote against Fatah as a vote for Hamas.

    As for ‘True Nature’? what is that other than complete and utter Racism – Do you think Palestinians have a deep and utter hatred of people irregardless of the situation? Funny how it never expressed itself until the Israelis occupied their lands then isn’t it? Now is your comment any different than those anti-semitic remarks that people make of the true nature of jews?

    As for ‘Al-Qaeda’ being true adherents of Islam? I think the majority of Muslims would disagree with you..

    What you have to understand is that there are people who are legitimately aggrieved by a pernicious, hypocritical west who will end up turning to the extreme if no alternative presents itself or is allowed to present itself – this will never be the majority but enough to make the problem worse. Nazism only came about because a vocal minority were able to breed hatred as a consequence of the perceived brutal treatment of the Germans at the treaty of versailles. The extremists will always exploit legitimate injustices. This does not however make the injustices any less valid.

  • doener kebab

    Dennis

    great link. I strongly urge al non-believers to send the link to 10 other non-believers to make sure that every non believers have seen the shitty face with the bomb on top.

    To the muslims: Enjoy your mass beheading! Mabe you should ask French government for a few olt guillotines it’s faster than your method in front of a video camera.

    So dear old muhammad (Pest Be Upon Him) internet is a great way to distribute your face an will inspire now many more artists. I would even dare to say soon we are going to have a drawing contest.

    Who is going to draw or paint the ugliest/most realistic/abstract or wathever face from the islamic prophet?

    Maybe there should be a contest between drawings of God, Muhamed, Buddha and any other god or Godess around the world.

    Who is going to start the contest?

  • Az

    By the way I love all the ironies in this:

    1. The Germans defending the right to freedom of expression (In a country where Holocaust denial is illegal)

    2. The French defending Freedom of expression (They just banned headscarves)

    3. The Saudis amongst other Arab regimes protesting against the cartoons on the grounds of ‘protection of religous sensitivities’ (They never crack down on anti-semitic barbs in their newspapers).

    Oh and by the way that protest on Friday in London WAS offensive to the vast majority of muslims in Britain as well as non-muslims and was hijacked by a bunch of publicity seeking Salafist nutters. I am actually surprised they weren’t prosecuted for inciting racial hatred.

  • Az

    Doener kebab why don’t you crawl back under the rock you just crawled out of…

  • Troy

    AZ,

    That is the point. They should NEVER be prosecuted for saying what they want. No matter how discusting it is.

  • Az

    Troy – Don’t get me wrong I don’t think incitement to racial hatred should be an offense (especially as hatred itself is not an offence so why should incitement be? never understood that) I was just expressing surprise in the current climate they weren’t prosecuted. I think incitement to violence is a different thing and I think they were bordering on the fringes of that however.

  • Troy

    AZ~

    There are Social consequences to the protesters words and actions, but no governing body should ever, fine, imprison, or torture people for their words or ideas!

    The social consequences may be: They give a horrible image to Islam as a whole, people will be more scared of them as individuals, and as a political force. (I don’t want people like that governing me!)

    But again, they believe what they say, so they should be able to say it with out fear of repercussion of a Government body. That is “Free Speech”

    (Notice I always put “Free Speech” in quotes) “Free Speech” is only free in the way I just explained. There are always social consequences.

    I don’t like what those protesters were doing, but I would be more frightened if they were, fined, jailed, or tortured for saying what they believe. That would mean, eventually, I could get fined, jailed, or tortured for expressing my views. Once you go down that path, it only gets worse.

  • By the way I love all the ironies in this: 1. The Germans defending the right to freedom of expression (In a country where Holocaust denial is illegal)
    2. The French defending Freedom of expression (They just banned headscarves)

    Amen to that. When we are not howling at the more intolerant face of Islam, it is exactly these sorts of unacceptable restrictions on free expression closer to home that we hammer away at.

  • I think they were bordering on the fringes of that however.

    Fringes?(Link)

  • Az

    Troy – If someone is inciting violence don’t you think they should be prosecuted?

  • Troy

    AZ,

    The protesters were bordering on it, but did not cross it. Crossing that line is action, not words.

    The U.S. has its share of problems with “Hate Groups”, such as the K.K.K. and Neo-Nazism. VERY few people like what these groups have to say. (It is down right ignorant and disgusting! it’s great that I can say that)

    But to protect my own right to say whatever I want, I have to allow them to say what they believe…as much as I hate it!

    In fact when these vile people go to publicly air their view, they ask the Gov. to protect them from, otherwise sensible people, on the street! And the Gov. does it.

    The Gov. actually spends tax money and resources to protect the free speech, as well as keep them from bodily harm, of the same groups they despise!

    Pretty crazy, huh? So crazy, that it just might work. ; )

  • Crossing that line is action, not words.

    No, incitement is indeed words, both semantically and in law.

  • Dennis Castle

    Az ~ I’ve never been called a racist before. It’s kind of liberating. I AM A RACIST. Whew, it’s like a great weight has been lifted off of me.

    Let me see, Americans respond to the terrorists and you say it leads to recruitment of more terrorists and I say those recruits may simply be responding to what the Koran tells them they should be doing in the first place and you say I am a racist.

    How about you tell me that the Koran doesn’t tell its adherents “… believers, retaliation is decreed for you in bloodshed … slay them wherever you find them … fighting is obligatory for you … do not make friends with anyone other than your own people” so I can rest assured the Koran I read is just a bad copy? Or maybe I’m a racist for quoting the thing. One thing is certain, Osama has plenty of support in the Koran for his terrorist views.

  • Az

    Troy – Aagh but theres the distinction – freedom of expression is not absolute it stops when it contradicts our other liberties – such as my freedom to be! so if someone incites someone to attack me that person is as culpable as the person who actually commits the attack.

    Coming back to what this thread is about – the two freedoms that are clashing are freedom of expression and freedom of religion, in this case I think its clear that freedom of expression is the winner as the cartoons while offensive, derogatory and racist do not actually impede anybodys freedom.

    The interesting question is that now we know that they are causing a furore is further publishing necessary to ‘defend’ our freedoms or is it just provocation and incitement? ..and what was the motive of those republishing was it really to ‘defend’ our freedoms or just to attack an easy target..

  • Troy

    “Crossing that line is action, not words.”
    Let me clarify.

    I wasn’t aware there was property damage and harassment involved. Yes, that was action. Prosecute those people.

    Prosecute the ones that got everyone riled up? I don’t know. That’s a bit of a slippery slope. If they said, “Go out and destroy property and harass the innocent public!”, and people immediately went out and did just that, yes. Prosecute the instigator and the vandals.

    If the ring leader was encouraging everyone to go out and take heads, and everyone just looked at him like a crazy man, groaned and walked away, what is there to prosecute?

    Punish them for their actions, not their words.

  • Az

    Dennis

    1. I called you a racist because of how you characterised Palestinians. You mentioned their true nature being revealed by voting for Hamas. Read what you wrote.

    2. I can take quotes out of the Bible and the Torah and skew them as well but I don’t think it adds anything to the discussion..

    3. As for your assertion that ‘Al-Qaeda’ is the true nature of muslims I didn’t call you a racist for this I simply think you are misguided – as I said before I think most muslims would disagree.

  • I wasn’t aware there was property damage and harassment involved

    That would be (respectively) ‘criminal damage’ and ‘a breach of the peace’… incitement is using words to call directly for violence against someone.

  • two freedoms that are clashing are freedom of expression and freedom of religion, in this case I think its clear that freedom of expression is the winner as the cartoons while offensive, derogatory and racist do not actually impede anybodys freedom.

    Not so. Nothing I say (short of inciting violence against you) can restrict your freedom of religion. No matter what nasty things a person says about Mohammed (i.e. via their freedom of expression), you can still go down to the mosque and pray.

  • Sorry… I misread your comment and actually I agree

  • Troy

    Perry,

    Thank you Perry. Yes, I’m not afraid to admit it, I had to look the word “incitement” up. As I’m sure many other readers did.

    I don’t understand you’re last reply. Do we not agree? Am I missing a vaid point of yours?

  • Troy

    Perry,

    Check. Ditto.

  • I was agreeing with the example Az gave that I initially mis-read (sleep deprivation!) that freedom of expression does not actually prevent anyone having freedom of religion

  • Steve

    These supposedly peaceful Muslims were the same ones who were dancing in the streets when the WTC came down, no? The same that are burning diplomatic embassies and voted a terrorist organization into political power? Throughout history, these people have spread their ideaology primarily through violence and conquest. Any Muslim asked in confidence that members of all other world religions should be either converted or destroyed will agree, whether they openly admit it or not. I’m about sick of hearing you people defend them, and the spineless diplomats condemning a bunch of ridiculous cartoons. I thought they were well drawn, and hold a ring of truth. I support the newspaper, freedom of speach, and any government with backbone that does the same.

  • Az

    “Any Muslim asked in confidence that members of all other world religions should be either converted or destroyed will agree, whether they openly admit it or not”

    Steve – I’m muslim and I disagree – now what does that mean? maybe that your absolutist remarks are total crap.. possibly?

  • Arshid Mirza Sialkot Pakistan

    Dear Sirs,

    I do not understand that how it has begun to be beleived that all the folllowers of Islam are stiff-headed extremists and fanatics. No, it is not the case at all. Our prophet Muhammad has taught us to live in peace, have respect for others, be tolerant and exercise a spirit of co-existence. and that is what the majortiy of the muslims are.

    If in some parts of the world the muslims are resisitng against the foriegn occupation, they are not terrorists. In Afghanistan when they were resisiting the Russian assailants, they were the blue-eyed boys of the Americans. When the Russians pulled out, no one cared to set up a stable govt and the country was left in chasos and disorder at the unrestrained mercy of the war-lords. Now the same war lords who were once the most liked creatures of the western world are being termed as terrorists.

    Will some one tell us that what democracy is.

    Is it the democracy, that Iraqis who by virtue of thier action have proved that they do not like the foriegn occupation are being butuchered ruthlessly. If US and its allies beleive the norms of democracy they should let the people of Iraq settle their own issues through peaceful dialogue and polical process. denmocray must not be imposed on gun point.

    Is this the democracy that the people of Palestine have elected a political party of thier choice. Since that party is not liked by the US, Israel and the other western powers hence no one is ready to even enter into dialogue with them.

    Is this the demcracy that people of Kashmir, for the last 60 years have been struggling for thier right to self determination and they have been forced to be allegiant on gun point.

    This is not the religion, which is teaching the people to be violent, it is the attitude and behavior of the global decision makers that is pushing the people. I do not justify anything fanatic and extremist, but unless and until the fact is recognised that rights of people and nantions are acknowledged and provided to them the people would not get pacified.

    If the the rights of the people are kept usurped and in the name of introducing democracy, their natural resources are plundred and they are left to groan under the intolerable burden of poverty, hunger, disease, illiteracy who can how prevent the people from becoming violent.

    It will be of no use to keep on beating the drums that muslims are violent and terrorists. In fact they are not. Just do not inturde into thier lands. Restore thier sovergnity and let them themsleves settle thier disputes and make struggle for addressing thier problems like poverty, ignorance, disease and hunger. They will work for peace and prospeity of all the people living on the globe and no one will hear that the muslims are the so-called terrorists.

    Now coming back to the issue of caricatures. As muslims we respect all the religions. We respect all the prophets and the sacred personaliites. We can not even dream of demeaning and ridiculing any of these personaliites regardless of the fact, they are christians, jews, hindus, budhs are whatso ever. All of them are honourable for us but in the same breath we deserve and deserve that our holy prophet and religious personailities should be honored by others no matter you beleive them or not. At least they should not be ridiculed.

    Will some one let me understand that if some one stands on highway and commits an act of broad day robbery can it be regarded as his/her civil liberty and basic human right to earn livilihood.Wiil the law not come into action to take cognizance of his unlawful acts.

    In the similar fashion, if someone ridicules some holy personality who is reverred by millions on the globe can it be regarded just a matter of the right to exprsession and freedom of press. Every right is inevitably linked and associated to a sense of responsible duty. Ridiculing the holiest personality of a religion and hurting the sentiments of millions of its followers can be simply termed an irresponsible act of the designer and the publisher and not a matter of freedom of expression.

    I think that the world should re-consider its way of terming and labelling the things. Every publication , without considering that how ridiculing and injurious to the sentiments of millions of people acorss the globe should not be held as a matter of freedom of expression. Similarly, without considering that how the world has pushed a nation to the wall should not be labelled as a ” host of terrorists” They are not so they are being labelled as such.

  • Murtaza

    Hi evryone, took a few hours to get through this lot..
    alot of good point, and alot of stupidity too… (don’t really need 2 say who is which). love the debating, but one thing i HAVE to clear up after reading one of the URLs on this to a Christian site, The Qur’an (you’ve done well with Muslim vs. Moslem, this would be another pleease :) ) says things which have been “cherry-picked” by many (infact nearly all) anti-Islamic people/organisations/etc. You must bear in mind these are revelations which came at certain times, so they are in the context of the times… I.E. when it says go and kill the disbelievers wher you find them, its not saying “TAKE THE WORLD ON!!”, infact it is reffering to the pagons in Mecca who were making treaties with the Muslims (because peace is ALWAYS preffered to violence in TRUE ISLAM – not stressing that enough) but would then break the pacts immediately.. I know you guys are educated, and Perry I know you have said many a time taht you have read the Qur’an, but I wonder if it was with translation only or with commentry too, because not only does it make a WHOLE lot more sense then, but it also reveals deeper meanings, and makes it a tad more interesting… I have the ISBN for a Qur’an with commentry from a Shi’a point of view…
    But eyah there are a million quotes out there like that, and adding to that is the fact Arabic (which i personally think sounds great, listen to a tape of the Qur’an being recited if u wana…) has words whcih can have many meanings, so its open to abuse by whoever may wish to do so.

    NOOW, back to the topic at hand, I think my point of view has been pointed out, and thanks to Arshid for making points i am neither educated enough nor elequent enough toi make.. Freedom of speech. Great thing. BUT if it is unlimited I can go around and tell anyone anything… true, its my right..? anywho, if you had a child. and God-forbid (sorry, its a commonly used word…) someone were to talk to them, while you were there, and tell them about lets say vulgar things. Things which children SHOULDN’t know, (to keep their innocence), not only would that be wrong, but infuriating for you. so you may wish to say, I’ll kill him, and anyone who does the same, hmm, different context? is that more personal than whats been going on here? well, seeing as Islam is a way of life, and the Prophet PBUH came to teach it to us, we (or I atleast) have alot of love for him, and it was frustrating, annoying, disturbing, but mostly INFURIATING… its a human reaction, as must have been some of the earlier posts, but those added insult to injury, so to speak, and so I was more infuriated… anyhow, although my first reaction was anger I know taht will getnowhere, and I don’t really know why these so called “Muslims” who do theses protests (reffer to earlier posts about UK protests, bomb threats, etc) wish to gain. Understandable if they say “apologise”, I’d carry that banner, but to say Death to blah blah, nope, nothing doing…

    SO my point in a nutshell is that although there is freedom of speech, this isnt the way to do it. I would read an article talking about the Prohpet PBUH as a terrorist, and be pissed off, but I can reason with that, the person made an effort to show us his point of view, but at a time when terrorism under the guise of Islam is so rampant (they are not Muslim fundementalists, they are simply insane, and claiming Islam as a reason.. sorta like the entire bush regime and “war on terror” ;-) – JOKE do not assasinate me) and Muslims are being persecuted, to print these images, even when REQUESTED by the Muslim community not to, all I can say is it sounds awfully like a sting operation.. is SOMEONE looking for a reason for a “war” (on terror perhaps, maybe incited terror…). it smells a lil fishy to me… but as spiderman said, with great power comes great responisbility…
    great posts guys..
    Wasalaam Alaykum (peace be upon you)

    PS my freedom of speech emans i can say that heheh (no sarcastic undertones there, just a niec squeaky clean joke… :D )

  • Murtaza

    Sorry, but its me again,
    wanted to apologise, its 4 am, my spellings a bit off…

    If the child-parent exampole i gave was a little too far fetched, perhaps a similar situation about your father/close relative/father figure/u get my point.. and yourself where someone was to come and tell YOU slanderous things about your father.

    I mean, to depict a Prophet as a terrorist…slander i’d say..

    anywho, night
    Wassalaam

  • Luke

    Hey y’all! Judgement Day is not too far away, so I guess we will soon know who is right and who is wrong. As for the majority of people who have posted their comments on this site…you all need to open your eyes, and look past the prejudice. This forum is yet another excuse for Muslim bashing. If you really want to know the truth about Islam, go the source i.e the Quran instead of reading somebody’s version of it. As for the big uproar over these cartoons, it is obvious from them that the cartoonists were well aware that there would be negative repercussions, and despite that, they went ahead with it. Freedom of speech is one thing, and morality is another. Just because you have a right to express yourself, does not mean that you abuse it. You should be ashamed for thinking the way you do. I agree with Steve that if you respect others, they will respect you.

  • Save The West

    Hi all.

    I think people need to step back and take a look at the situation without any religious or social bias. I live in South Africa and I’m white. I have never thought the continent was my own and never will as black people lived here long before my ancestors arrived. I have never opressed another person, whether racially or religiously and expect the same treatment. It makes me sick that people originating from the east can try to impose their beliefs on cultures and civilisations who left behind barbaric thhought centuries ago. I wouldn’t dare enter Denmark and try to tell it’s people what to think or do. Don’t the muslims understand it is not their country? All western countries are not theirs! They are happy to profit from western lifestyles, wear the western fashions, be schooled and trained in western technology and then have the nerve to look at everything through eastern, muslim eyes. It is so sad that the western freedom policies are now it’s weakness. As one comment above stated: you cannot deal with bloodthirsty, barbarian thugs on your own level… the west needs to adopt a survival attitude to save it’s people before it’s too late. Muslims have entered every country in the world and made their presence known. These ticking time-bombs are ready to take up the call of jihad and start hacking off the heads of the western people who so kindly saved them from the disgusting eastern lands from which they fled.

    I read in my own South African newspaper this sad article this morning:

    SA newspapers ordered not to publish cartoon

    February 04 2006 at 01:58PM

    Sunday newspapers will not be allowed to publish a controversial cartoon of prophet Mohammad after a Muslim pressure group was granted a court interdict.

    The SA National Editors Forum said on Saturday several South African media houses were gagged from publishing the cartoon on Friday night.

    The Jamiat-ul Ulama of Transvaal, which sought an interdict against Johncom Media and Independent Newspapers among others, said the cartoon was “deeply offensive”.

    The organisation was granted the interdict at 10.30pm on Friday.

    The Sunday Times, one of the Johncom newspapers who received a letter from the group asking if it would publish the cartoon, said at the time it had not decided on its action.

    The paper’s editor, Mondli Makhanya, told Sapa the Sunday Times refused to make an undertaking to the Jamiat-ul Ulama on the principle that it would not be dictated by outsiders on what to publish.

    “We believe that if we were to have given an undertaking not to publish, we would invite similar demands and threats from anyone who felt offended by the stories we publish.

    “No credible newspaper can be held to ransom by the beliefs of a section of a population.

    “We are obliged to reflect the world that we live in – not just a part of it – for the benefit of all our readers. We must uphold the right to publish without fear or favour,” Makhanya said.

    Sanef chairperson Joe Thloloe described the interdict as alarming.

    He said Sanef believed the interdict amounted to pre-publication censorship.

    The interdict “limits freedom of expression in that the decision on whether to publish or not to publish has been taken away from the editors and placed on the shoulders of the court”.

    “The editors of the publications that were gagged are aware of the law and the limitations the Constitution has placed on freedom of expression and would respect those.

    “It is not for the courts to assume that the law is going to be broken and make the decision for editors,” he said in a statement. – Sapa

    I hope Denmark and all the other free countries of the earth wake up to the most dangerous threat we face and start thinking of some hard line solutions instead of just talking. The “extremist” muslim (which I think accounts for about 90% of them) are happy to talk and make false agreements but will stab us in the back when it suits them!

    Will people ever think for themselves?

  • Dennis Castle

    Arshid ~ thank you for your thoughtful post and your obvious genuine desire to see this issue resolved respectfully and peacefully. With your permission I will attempt to address some of the issues you have chosen to share on this thread.

    I do not understand that how it has begun to be beleived that all the folllowers of Islam are stiff-headed extremists and fanatics

    In 1968 a punk Muslim terrorist anti-Semite assassinated Robert F Kennedy who was a few months away from being elected President of the United States. A decade later a large group of punk Muslim terrorists (we’ll call them “Iranians”) raided our embassy and held Americans hostage for 444 days. Frankly, a certain percentage of us have been spoiling for a fight ever since. During the years after we have been impressed with the pictures of one group of punk Muslim terrorists after another pushing wheel-chair bound defenseless Americans off of cruise ships, seeing bombs go off on civilian air-liners, watching disco’s and restaurants and busses obliterated by loser, demon-worshiping punks who are too cowardly to stand up and fight and instead have to slaughter women and children and defenseless old people. And who are these people? Well, they all look, act and believe the same way. They all read the same book and, although they’ve never drawn a picture of Muhammad they have certainly figured out that to do his will they need to continue slaughtering innocent, defenseless women, children, old people and pray to their merciful and compassionate whatever-he-is that the rest of us end up the same way. Maybe Muslims need a better public relations guy, but watching Muslims dance in the streets from Morocco to Malaysia on 9/11 made it clear to most of us that maybe it’s time to throw down and settle-up.

    Exactly who does the “religion of peace” get along with anyway? Does Islam get along with any other religion on the planet? You have direct, violent conflicts with Buddhists in Thailand and the Philippines, with Hindus in India, with Jews in Israel, with Christians absolutely everywhere and with post-Christian Europe. You don’t even get along with yourselves (or was that terrorist bomb in Amman aimed at non-Jordanians?). We’ve watched you behead non-combatant workers on TV while you are screaming Allah is Great and listening to the gurgling sound of the dying.

    Do you see Christians fighting Hindus or Jews? Hindus fighting Jews or Buddhists? Buddhists fighting Christians or Jews? The rest of the world has figured some Humanity 101 courses out, Islam is the ugly child that can’t get along with anybody.

    Our prophet Muhammad has taught us to live in peace, have respect for others, be tolerant and exercise a spirit of co-existence

    You know, I’ve read your Koran and that doesn’t come through at all. Did you know that a Roman Emperor named Constantine proclaimed the entire empire had to become Christian in the 4th century? About 300 years later some sadistic, bloodthirsty mass-murderer (praise be unto him) decided he would slaughter everyone who wouldn’t submit to him and his new religion. Guess what religion those people were whom he chose to wipe out? That “spirit of tolerance” continued until they were stopped on the borders of France a couple hundred years later.

    in some parts of the world the muslims are resisitng against the foriegn occupation

    Do you think at the end of August 2001 there was a single person in the US that wanted to go to Afghanistan? But some Afghan residents decided to send us an airmail invitation to a fight. 10 years before that a different madman insisted on invading his neighbor to capture the world oil supplies. It didn’t work out the way he planned, we have a way of doing that with dictators.

    Will some one tell us that what democracy is

    Democracy is rule by the governed. Before you get too self-righteous on the pit-falls of democracy, I’d like you to show me a single Islamic country that isn’t a human rights nightmare, a religious rights vacuum and one-commodity economic basket case.

    Is this the democracy that the people of Palestine have elected a political party of thier choice

    Awesome choice, a political “party” whose soul purpose is the annihilation of another religious group whose ancestors lived in the land 4,000 years ago. They have revealed to the world that they want a bloody war and nothing less. They have revealed that the method Hamas has chosen to attack Israel, terrorism against the defenseless like the spineless cowards they are, which should be repugnant to every decent human being on the planet, is fine with them. We see more than just the politics of the Palestinian people; we now see their soul.

    This is not the religion, which is teaching the people to be violent, it is the attitude and behavior of the global decision makers that is pushing the people

    No, you are wrong. Others have been oppressed and produced Ghandi or Martin Luther King, Jr but Islam is incapable of finding someone of their ilk. If a moderate Muslim were to stand and decry the terrorism and hideous displays of hatred by their own people and point to a non-violent resistance to grievances they wouldn’t last a week. Who would gun them down? It would be a disciple of the “religion of peace” and you know it.

    Just do not inturde into thier lands. Restore thier sovergnity and let them themsleves settle thier disputes

    Allow me to interpret (I speak pseudo-piety and can translate it into English), “don’t intrude on their lands” means allow them to blow up your iconic sky scrapers and don’t open up a can of whoop-ass in return; “restore their sovereignty” means back away from Israel so they can attempt to destroy them like they did 30+ years ago; “let them settle their disputes” means allowing the mercies of Zarchawi and bin Laden to purify the brethren or get bought off by the Sheiks.

    As muslims we respect all the religions. We respect all the prophets and the sacred personaliites. We can not even dream of demeaning and ridiculing any of these personaliites regardless of the fact, they are christians, jews, hindus, budhs are whatso ever

    Do you have any idea the ungodly, hideous caricatures of Jews and their sacred symbols that are depicted daily in Islamic newspapers? Do you realize your description of Jesus is blasphemous to Christians? The rest of the world has learned to tolerate your insults and depredations, please don’t flatter yourself by confusing that with being acceptable.

    if someone ridicules some holy personality who is reverred by millions on the globe can it be regarded just a matter of the right to exprsession and freedom of press

    Yes, it is the right of an individual to express their opinion on any matter in thought, word and the press as long as it does not defraud another in a measurable way that can convince a court of law. Can you convince us that drawing a picture of Muhammad does that? If so, we await you

  • novicelibertarian

    Hello all

    I stumbled upon this site and discussion by accident, and found it fascinating. This is my first post so I apologize if I am late to the debate and re-covering old ground and ramble a bit on different points.

    It seems as if everyone in the debate so far has accepted the ‘fire in the cinema’ argument, and then moved on. But perhaps it’s fruitful to consider why that is considered legitimate restriction of free speech, as in some ways it comes to the core of the way the 2 sides here view the amount of offense.

    I haven’t read around this issue, but unless the act of shouting fire is to be prohibited on some grounds of ‘fraud’ or deception, I presume it’s because it is held to inevitably lead others to a certain behaviour, which is harmful – i.e. a stampede. If it wasn’t largely inevitable, then those participating in a stampede would be exercising choice, and would be held responsibility for their actions. A similar argument presumably holds for incitement to violence.

    There’s an undertone here among some of the Islamic posts that seems to suggest that the offence is so great, and because they are bound by deeply held beliefs, that they are ‘bound’ to react in a violent way and so any damage/riot etc. caused is essentially the fault of the cartoon makers.

    But surely while the ‘fire in the cinema’ reaction would cause inevitable behaviour in all peoples, the inevitability of the reaction in this case only arises from the beliefs of a sub-section. If that is allowed to be the case, then any strongly held belief in a dispropotionate reaction would be justifiable.
    This seems to me to be the difference, making the comparison inapplicable. Otherwise anyone could claim their (however wacky) beliefs as a defence against any crime, and hold others responsible.

    Interestingly one of the arguments being made in the press seems to be that any ‘slander’ against the religion is in effect a personal slander against every muslim. The debate is being conducted on different grounds: the “western” participants distinguishing between the group/institution and individual (which is why they cannot see why muslims take this personally), while the muslims think much more collectively (hence burning the Danish flag, as if the Danish government controlled/should control the press). As a believe in individual freedom, societies being formed from voluntary not coercive social cooperation, I obviously side with the ‘West’

    As regards the child/parent examples, I don’t think it’s helpful to bring children in, as children are not considered full adults and given protections, but that brings us into an entirely different debate about the differences between adults and children. But if you’re asking about an individual saying insulting things about your father, I would say that’s fine, if they’re slanderous, they can already be prosecuted. To some extent the argument here would be much more interesting if Mohammed was a living figure, as the case of slander could then be tested in court.

    Concerning the comments on leaving muslim countries ‘alone’, and as a believer in individual freedom, I would ask what a muslim country is? Is it a country which historically or currently has sharia law? Where all of the inhabitants are muslim? A majority? Human rights are individual, and not a function of geography, so I feel very uneasy about coercion in any part of the world (including by Westerm governments), whereas very happy for people to voluntarily submit to whatever rules they wish to. I would not wish to be a dissenter in a middle Eastern country!

    Coming back to the question of individual versus collective, there is a basic question of whether the laws of a society should represent the morals of the majority (as I think is being argued), or whether they should largely be neutral and leave people to express their own morality, unless it impinges on others (and by that I don’t mean unreasonable insult).

    This is getting too long, so I’ll stop here, but thanks all for providing such an interesting debate, and apologies if this rambled too much

  • novicelibertarian

    Re-reading my post I realised it perhaps wasn’t clear why I thought the fire thing is important.

    Just to say I have heard 20 times in the last few days muslim spokespeople saying that there are some restrictions on free speech (citing the fire/cinema example) and then implying this justifies restriction in this case. Obviously there’s a short path from “some restriction is necessary” to “all restriction is permissible”. The argument made that some restriction is OK is a valid one, so it is necessary for those on the ‘freedom’ side to argue why and where the boundary lies.

    Help needed to do that!

  • Sa'id

    The basic principle of debate is tha someone has knowledge to back what they’re saying. Therefore, on this assumption Mr Perry is not debating productively, but he is doing it just for the sake of it. If I know I’m not knowledgeable in a certain field I wouldn’t enter myself into discussion for that. Finally, regarding this ‘freedom of speech’ without limits, isn’t that what all the world atrocities were triggered by and if they carry on they would reach a level which is uncontrollable. All I’m saying is ‘know your limits’ and stop using ‘freedom of speech’ as an excuse for everything.

  • The basic principle of debate is tha someone has knowledge to back what they’re saying.

    We are debating freedom of speech. I know all about that. When the debate turns to more religious sub-topics, I have read a translation the Koran and I know several muslims, so I understand that, so what is it that I need to know more about before testing my theories in debate?

    I am offering up my views and seeing if someone else can say something that leads me to adjust my view of reality and lead me to a better understanding.

  • Uzma

    I would just like to say to Mr Perry that if this is a website which allows the opportunity to debate, then why is someone like Doener Kebab, a racist b*****d allowed?

    I think his comments are totally uncalled for and if he has a problem with Muslims, say it but don’t use such language to insult the Prophet (PBUH)

  • Uzma

    Everyone has made their comments Mr Kebab, but you really need to grow up and understand that just because a notion such as ‘freedom of speech’ has been created, it doesn’t eliminate the notion of respect and humanity.

    GROW UP!!

  • I agree Uzman, ‘Doener Kebab’ should make his points in less insulting terms.

  • Az

    Dennis – You are the worst kind of hypocrite – quick to call others an ‘Anti-Semite’ when you are the worst example – you just don’t get it.. the Jews aren’t the only semitic people in the world.

    After rereading your posts however I get it – You aren’t interested in the question of freedom of expression at all but instead would like to use this as a banner to bash Islam without any attempt to understand the cultural and historical backdrop to current events.

    I actually feel rather sorry for you that you can only see one side of an argument, that you are so blinded by your bigotry that you like to blame everything on Islam. Is that much better than the Nazis who used to blame everything on the Jews?

    I mean the logical extension of your argument is what exactly? Apartheid or a Final Solution? (I was actually waiting for you to mention how it was the Muslims who also instigated the holocaust).

    You haven’t yet blamed Islam for AIDS, El-Nino and Princess Dianas death but I’m sure given time you will.

    In short – get a reality check, either try getting out more or simply and respectfully….

    Get a life.

  • doener kebap

    Burning embassies in Beyrouth an Damascus showed me having chosen the right words!

    Anyhow just issued muhamads head as target in our lokal shooting club and believe me without the Danish cartoons it would be much less fun to target muhameds (Pistols Be Upon Him) eyes. Before I did not know how it looked like.

    Thank you Danish publishers!

  • modaji

    Hi All

    I think it’s worth saying that I think Islam is not an intolerant, violent religion. Its just that some of its followers are.

  • Modaji: to some extent it almost does not matter what the texts of a religion actually say, as over time a religious culture will change regardless.

    A few hundred years ago, Christians were hanging witches and slaughtering each other in vast numbers over minor religious differences. Press freedom? Hardly, you could get burned at the stake for heresy.

    Yet over time, the way Christians chose to interpret their religion (mostly due to the pressure of secular humanist values) came to change and the violence that was once used to impose Christian orthodoxy eventually became unthinkable.

    Yet the bible still says the things it said several hundred years ago.

  • Dennis Castle

    Perry ~ that is the cool thing about the New Testament, it spoke of your relationship with God, yourself, your neighbor, your enemy, it demanded equality between races, sexes and the bond/free relationship back in the first century and it took us millenia to begin to catch up. I can’t think of anything there that rings anachronistic or needs to be crossed out because it sounds like “hate speech” or a call to slaughter others. Again, not to get into the “best imaginary friend” argument, but when Muslims kill non-Muslims they can point to chapter and verse in the Koran.

  • Dennis Castle

    Az ~ I know, Semite refers to descendents of Shem and can be applied to all peoples of the Middle East. In the common vernacular it refers to Jew bashers. Palestinians who voted in a political “party” whose purpose is to push the Jews into the sea fit that description, as does Sirhan Sirhan who assassinated a man about to become President of the United States because of his attitude toward the Jews.

    You aren’t interested in the question of freedom of expression at all but instead would like to use this as a banner to bash Islam without any attempt to understand the cultural and historical backdrop to current events

    A decent man, Arshid, wrote about his honest perspective and asked genuine questions. I honored his requests to the best of my ability with clear and honest answers. If those answers were caustic or abrasive it is because I have no intention of hiding the truth from someone of integrity who seeks a solution. I do not see an obvious solution to this dilemma. Therefore it will require a frank and open discussion of the issues at hand in order for us to reach one together. I felt he either asked the right questions or brought up the right topics to move this thread to a conclusion, as you normally do with most of your insights as well.

    … you are so blinded by your bigotry that you like to blame everything on Islam. Is that much better than the Nazis …

    It has become a joke here in America when people drop the “Nazi bomb”. It has become so worn out it doesn’t mean anything anymore. It is usually used when people run out of an argument that they accuse the other of being a Nazi. Yawn. Well in this case it boils down to either one side is correct and the West must acquiesce its sovereignty over freedom of speech issues to the sensibilities of Muslims (above and beyond all other groups, they will have a historically unique position where the world must genuflect to all of their idiosyncrasies like cartoons of Muhammad) or the other side is correct and they are treated like every other religion in the world with no special privileges or accommodations. If I follow your accusation to its conclusion it means that to disagree with the wrong side makes me a Nazi. OK, I don’t want to be a Nazi, the Muslims are right and anyone who disagrees with them should be beheaded! That sure clears things up.

    I mean the logical extension of your argument is what exactly?

    Clarity. That’s all. Muslims pretend they are innocent in this debate and I wanted to avoid misunderstandings and so I expressed as clearly as possible the ramifications of Arshid’s points and questions. I’m not trying to win “nicest guy” awards or trying to convert anybody. I think acting too politically correct about some of these issues actually hides the truth and does harm. My response to Arshid was absolutely not meant to be the last word on any of those topics. I am more than happy to be shown where I am inaccurate; I am a teachable soul. Did I hurt your feelers? Not my problem. Am I dead wrong? Well then, put me in my place and be clear and convincing with your response. I believe in you, Az, wrestle your argument into shape and go get ‘em!

  • Steve

    Mr Az,
    Don’t tell me that yourself or any other ‘believer’ wouldn’t want to see myself and any/all others submit to the will of Allah. Otherwise we are going straight to hell and total destruction. Absolutist comment? Probably. Crap? I think not…. An entire population votes into legimate power an organization calling for the total destruction of a nearby culture that isn’t theirs? This isn’t a fundalamentalist nutjob minority; it’s the average citizen.

    Mr. Dennis made some very valid points. Particularly about the plethora of Islamic Newspapers and other media outlets regularly and vividly insulting all other non-Islamic beliefs, peoples, and nations. Does not Al Jazeera (pardon if I have any misspellings) regularly air everything Osama Bin Laden releases (tapes, video, etc.)? And the last time I heard, he is regarded as something of a hero by the Muslim masses. Calling for the total destruction of Israel, America, and all that…. The Western masses in general don’t scream loudly for mass civilian Muslim beheadings every time some Muslim individual or group insults Christianity, Judiasm, or whatever. I haven’t seen a flag burning or embassy torching directed at a Muslim nation here in America as long as I can remember…. And these people calling for butchering of those cartoonists, Danish or French Government officials and the like, aren’t machine-gun toting minority fundamentalists. They are every day Muslim people from multiple walks of life. The same ones dancing in the streets when 5000+ innocent civialians were murdered on 9/11. An average Westerner sees enough of those images — all of those people calling for us to be butchered for whatever crime we might have collectively done to the world of Islam, and we start to wonder what is wrong with all of those people and their beliefs, that everything has to incite rage and violence.

    Apparently many Muslims see the West as people that are prying in their business and plundering their resources. Oil is a world issue, but don’t you tell me that many Muslim citizens and whole regimes haven’t grown filthy rich off of it. Had the Taliban not harbored, supported, and protected an orchestrator of a direct attack on my country, we would not have invaded them. I don’t agree with what is going on in Iraq (nor do many Americans), but Saddam did pose a threat to neighboring countries as well as mine, and millions are safer without him in power. And Hammas’ stated mission is the complete destruction of Israel by any means: an ally of ours, why should we feel responsible to even talk to them, whether they are a militant group or an elected government?

    Whether any Western government has meddled or not, practically every day, thousands if not millions of Muslims regularly call for the butchering and murder of Westerners. Civilians. Women and children. Farmers, educators, bus drivers, etc. We see them kidnapped and beheadded by masked men on video yelling ‘praise to Allah….’ I suppose the average Joe’s crime here is by association. Punishable by death. I’m sure there are many (possibly even a majority) of more level headed Muslims that don’t condone murder. Mr. Az here seems to be one of them. But if you all want to stop the average Westerner such as myself from viewing your people as a whole as fundamentalist murderous violent nutjobs, then perhaps you should start policing yourselves and stop those thousands, if not millions, that are.

    Immortal words from Mr. Young:

    “…Don’t feel like Satan, but I am to them.”

  • Per

    One issue that I have not seen being mentioned is that the Palistininans (Gaza and West Bank) receive 7% of their foreign support from Scandinavia. I believe this to be the highest per capita support from anywhere.

    There is no question that all support is badly needed to build schools and hospitals and strengthen the infrastructure.

    But, will the taxpayers in the Scandinavian countries look further than pictures of burnig flags and embassies and continue to support a good cause?
    I hope so.

    One would expect the new leaders either to decline accpting contributions from “enemy” countries or to try to explain to the masses that Denmark is a friendly country but with laws of its own.

    It would be sad if this whole tempest in a teapot ends in the poor getting poorer. Unfortunately this is often the case when when fights erupt.

    By the way, the virgins cartoon made me laugh, like a good cartoon should do, not maliciously but humourously.
    Also the cartoon with two seeing women and a blinded man struck me as a perfect example of a good cartoon:
    Satirical and visual and intelligent.

  • Az

    I just wrote a long reply (stop yawning it wasn’t that long) but the spambot has attacked me again – sort it out Perry!

  • Az

    Dennis – You have every right to say what you believe and I do not denigrate that right, I embrace it. (Oh and by the way Steve you ARE wrong – don’t presume to tell me what I think, I believe that people are entitled to believe what they wish, There is a third option other than conversion or destruction its called acceptance – ooh how enlightening!).

  • Az

    What I disliked about your comments, Dennis, as I said were that they seem to meander from genuine expressions of interest to futile points which are racist (your palestinian point) or simplistic (muslims have been responsible for x, y and z so Islam is the reason). If you want to use simplistic statements to generate a debate fair enough but i’m a little sceptical as I think you do actually believe these points – which is a bit worrying as you seem to be an intelligent enough bloke..

  • Az

    My view is quite clearly that the problems seen in many curent islamic societies are mainly the by-products of a combination of colonialism and weak indigenous institutions. Western hypocrisy currently exacerbates this and has led to the bunch of nutter terrorists trying to claim themselves as the righteous heirs to Islam, well they’re not but don’t blame Islam for this blame those individuals. You can read anything you want into a set of words – intepretation is important.

    So if you want to continue thinking Islam is evil go ahead – however there are many many of us muslims who don’t and think it is compatible with modern liberal values and is a force for good in the way that christianity and judaism (and many other religions) are.

    So all you achieve by the more you bash Islam the more you reinforce many muslim feelings of hypocrisy and increase the resentment which prevents any rational debate within Islam of how muslim societies need to change.

    I accept that there are many ignorant muslims out there but then as this thread has ably illustrated they are not alone in their ignorance.

  • az

    I had a further comment about why the Nazi bomb is appropriate but the spambot won’t let me say it.. so lets see if this gets through.. basically I was making a point about the equivalence of Anti-Semitism and Anti-Islamism and how Anti-Islamism seems to be the new acceptable face of veneered racism (see the BNP in the UK).

  • Murtaza

    Thanks for the comments.. the one comment i should say :( anywho, i would like to address it, novicelibertarian, the point isnt that it is a child, the point is its wrong (morality, as stated a couple of times) against it’s right (MY right to freedom of speech). So have we gone too far with having absolute freedom to say anything we wish? there are points for and against. For: we can say anything about anyone, and let people make their minds up. Against: the entire issue at hand. Peoples feelings (collective AND individual) you see, this is an issue for me a Muslim, and also for Muslims as a whole, since this is one person who is regarded as Prophet to ALL sects (quite a uniting thing actually..). But you are stipulating that since it wasn’t EVRYONE who was hurt its ok…? How is taht right? thats even more discriminatory, is it not?

    Now the reaction of Muslims was a bit of a dilema. We were hurt, it was immoral (aka wrong, not wrong on the part of they aren’t allowed to say it, more they should have exercised more logic/common sense: “who would have known there would be death threats from all of these KNOWN terrorist” uh DUH!)so should we
    a) condemn it, but that gives all of these terrosts a chance to say YEAH, LETS PLANT A BOMB!!, or
    b) ignore it?

    I would have said b) but then again, that would tell the western world who there is SO much friction with that we dont mind you calling our Prophet a terrorist, and from there it would have only gone further.. hmm, what to do. Im not condoning any actions taken, and indeed i condemn alot of them, I’m just showing my personal thought..

    Anywho, people, please, SORT OUT YOUR FACTS!!!!!:

    WE dont want to control your thoughts, feel free to think what you want. we dont want to colonise/cponvert/kill ANYONE. we just want you to show a LITTLE respect. regardless of what YOU may believe/think, this was disrespectful to ALL muslims who hold Prophet Mohammed PBUH close to heart. we arent saying we want you to respect him, but respect US.. sure there are people who do xyz and kill otehrs (eg a co-ordinated mass murder of 3000 muslims in Gujrat, India, or any of the examples given about 200 times posters here of “Muslims” doing things..) BUT how will disrespecting them make YOU feel better, if you want to show your freedom of speech, say “we have freedom of speech, i can say F the world.” Why pick on a religion whcih is already pretty agrivated and then “poke the bear with a stick” HOW does taht make sense?

    Anywho, back to my post.
    dennis, ok we don’t want anyt spcial treatment, we dont want to be teachers pet to europe etc. we would be happy so say that for evrything, if something will cause widespread chaos etc, or be extremely offensive to a group of people (recognised or not, funny story, aparently Jews are a race but Muslims aren’t… am i right or misinformed?) then it shouldnt be done.

    Steve: “I don’t agree with what is going on in Iraq (nor do many Americans), but Saddam did pose a threat to neighboring countries as well as mine, and millions are safer without him in power”
    Statistics I recall state that were more casualties in this war (of IRAQI CIVILLIANS) than through the entire reign of Saddam. Don’t get me wrong, hate him for what he did. BUT as my Fourth Imam, Imam Ali Ibn Hussain said to the abbasids who wanted to take over the Islamic governement, something to the effect of ‘we don’t want them in power, but we don’t want you in power either’

    Steve: They are every day Muslim people from multiple walks of life. The same ones dancing in the streets when 5000+ innocent civialians were murdered on 9/11

    mmm interesting, but NOPE. wrong, they aren’t evryday Muslims from all walks of life. Infact even if they were they wouldn’t hold those posters, I know I and anyone im my community or even sect would. sorry, don’t assume…

    Steve: and stop those thousands, if not millions, that are

    If only. How?? This is a sect, and don’t be fooled these people have more hatred for MY sect than all of you guys, so what do you want us to do? bomb them back?? anywho, discussion for a different day, I fail to see where this ties in with draming our Prophet as a terrorist.. “There are terrorists out there with the Mulim faith. Their Prophet is a terrorist.” very weak. infact the IRA (Irish Republican Army is, i believe, Catholic -Or protestant, sorry not perfect on details here, no wish to offend anyone)) are a terrorists organisation looking to get Ireland back. So i could say, hmmm Jesus was a terrorist, lets draw him as one. haha! It’s still not right. YOU CAN, but its not RIGHT (Immoral). And if you are happy to see those images printed and happily say “we tolerate, we don’t mind” it doesn’t mean that I should change My ideology to fit yours.. does it. Isnt taht part of your arguement?).

    Steve: Does not Al Jazeera (pardon if I have any misspellings) regularly air everything Osama Bin Laden releases (tapes, video, etc.)? And the last time I heard, he is regarded as something of a hero by the Muslim masses.

    Is that right. And who told you taht. I don’t see him as a hero. No Muslim i know (and thats quite alot) see him as a hero, where do you get your info?? Interesting, Al Jazera supports Bin Laden by showing these tapes. Its news so it should not show news of a new terrorist threat to the world. So when CNN and otehrs may show these tapes or murders it isn’t supporting terrorists? double standards. I havent heard of Al Jazeera supporting them. Am i wrong?

    Dennis: but when Muslims kill non-Muslims they can point to chapter and verse in the Koran

    The Quran atleast, come on.. Anyhow Whaaaat? Where, tell me a refference, I love looking at these in my version of the Quran (with commentary) and looking at the context. its all contexual. Did you miss my last post? Give me references, its all good to say. The Quran said do this, be this, have this blah blah, but as you said you read it, so you should know where roughly, websites alll over the place have them, since its quite a hotbed, BUT as i said in my last message, You gota read context. u jus gota to understand it.. not straight meanings only. Perry, you too. There is a quote saying slay them where you find them, THIS IS NOT TO YOU!!! It is to Pagans who would cause problems fro the Prophet an his people in Mecca when they would make a pact and break it immeidately/repeatedly, etc, read last post

    Doener Kebab, sad ass. shoot terrorist. why the Prophet, when did he say be a terrorist?

    Dennis: …Do you realize your description of Jesus is blasphemous to Christians? The rest of the world has learned to tolerate your insults and depredations, please don’t flatter yourself by confusing that with being acceptable.

    Okay, well our BELIEF is taht he is a Prohet. for a Christian that is blaspheomous, so they will come and debate with us. and often there are debates. BUT when you go around, and make a mockery of a Proophet, tahts not exactly the same now is it? as far as the Arab papers and Jews in them. Here you are insulting Jews, and often, infact most of the time we see cartoons about Muslims, NOOO PROBLEMS!! Go for it. Muslims are X Y Z, terrorist, close minded blah blah, go fort it. BUT DRAW A LINE at calling a historical figure, revered by over a billion as a Prophet and chosen by Allah (believe or not, just don’t throw insult please)a terrorist.

    Dennis: Who would gun them down? It would be a disciple of the “religion of peace” and you know it.

    Dennis: They have revealed that the method Hamas has chosen to attack Israel, terrorism against the defenseless like the spineless cowards they are, which should be repugnant to every decent human being on the planet, is fine with them. We see more than just the politics of the Palestinian people; we now see their soul.

    Ever caught the news? (not recently, would be a while ago now. Tanks in palastine, forcing people out of thier homes, while Settlements were set up in their palce. anyone who chose to disobey. death. then in these camps there would be a terrorist, so naturally you send a helicopter gunship and kill loads of Palastinians. Interesting how Palastine until recently wasnt a state. And as you say, a group (no necessarily religious) who lived there before, said we want to go there again, so SOMEONE came, threw palastinians out of the way, and put them there. Romans used to live in England. If half a million said “we want to go there again” and came over said, we used to own you, and we want some of it back, we’ll just take London, thanks; push aside all people in London. and tahts taht. What will happen, will there not be attempts at trying to reclaim it? And ofcourse Palastinians don’t have military strength of America. Sorry “Israel”, yeah. so tell me you didn’t see the many pictures of boys standing onfront of tanks. Or the pictures of parents clutching their dying children in Palastine. These are daily scenes, and when they caan do nothing else to be heard or to make the Israelis go away they become scuicide bombers. Now im not condoning it, infact i still see it as wrong. There is no justification for innocent loss of life, never was, never will be. But take a childs toy and give it to another, the child will cry, wont it try and take it back from the other child? anywho, palsatine aside for now. Hamas, from what i read here was e#lected due to a LACK OF CHOICE, not Palastinian (NOT MUSLIM) desire to kill all otehrs.

    Dennis: About 300 years later some sadistic, bloodthirsty mass-murderer (praise be unto him) decided he would slaughter everyone who wouldn’t submit to him and his new religion. Guess what religion those people were whom he chose to wipe out? That “spirit of tolerance” continued until they were stopped on the borders of France a couple hundred years later.

    Are you sure you read the right Quran. Notice that it says “until they dissist”. It wasnt a be like me or be dead scenario. There would alwasy be an abassedor who would be sent. He would preach a little and then inform them that there were 2 choices. Either accept the religion if they wanted to, or to remain as they were but to pay alms, i.e. a small tax to be under the control of the Arabs of the time. This would include protection and access to Arabian areas, which would be fantastic for trade, eh. So, get it right buddy. If they didn’t want these option there wasn’t much choice.

    You really need to read the parables about prisoners of war, eg the Prophets and Imams would ALWYAS free and return royalty to their own country/people. Many however wished to stay. I wonder Why if they were all barbarians.. maybe not…???

    Dennis:slaughter women and children and defenseless old people.

    You have read the Quran apparently, where did it say that. Also feel free to find it in Hadeeth (narrations from the Prophet). And ofcourse Islam is the only one going around killing people right, I eman its not like in Chechnya, Palastine, Iraq, Afghanistan etc there were/are women, children or old people being killed, so why say that Islam is bad because some people say WERE MUSLIM AND WE DO THIS. why not ohters?

    novicelibertarian: (hence burning the Danish flag, as if the Danish government controlled/should control the press)

    Was it not he Danish president/prime minister who said he would do nothing about it. (later apologised, clever guy. Not because he’s wrong, though i believe he is, but because a whole load of PEOPLE are very very reactionary, and extreeemely volatile, ready to explode at any chance. literally. BUT these are not true Muslims, they are if anything misguided Muslims)

    on a more humorous note:
    Save the west: Muslims have entered every country in the world and made their presence known. These ticking time-bombs are ready to take up the call of jihad and start hacking off the heads of the western people who so kindly saved them from the disgusting eastern lands from which they fled.

    Wow taht was funny. Yeah, every muslim owns a bomb that we shall run into evry building with and kill all of us. Clever guy, that would leave none of us left to rule you. such genius no wonder we have problems. Did this guy draw a cartoon too, looks like he thinks our Prophet was a terrorist… dude seriously, sort it out, there are FACTIONS of people under the GUISE (name of) Islam saying we want to annihalate you, but if there were really that many don’t you think you’d be dead by now?? tut tut, lack of thought my friend, not to mention lack of research…

    ok, im tired REPLY TO, OR AT LEAST REGARD THIS POST! U GUYS BLANKED ME EARLIER. IM HURT :(

    Wassalaam
    Murtaza

  • harry

    Hello every body and peace may be upon you and the mercy of god .. first so many of you europeans or americans or generally non muslims look at islam from the way of your own tv stations, radios, films, or newspapers. i want to comment on this first. people who wright or present anything about islam are people who know nothing about islam and give a false picture about muslims. what reaches you is that bad side. do your tv sations or newspapers talk about good muslims ?? ask your self … the answer is no !! .. i lived for a long time in UK and i know this… so before you judge islam as a relegion go and read !! you europeans love reading isnt it ?? so go and look for books that talk about true islam and you will know the relegion.. then when we reach people you will find two kinds : good and evil .. the good obviously will not get the attension !!! so this is life .. do you talk about terrorism ??? what about the northern irealand army ?? what about spain and fita (if pronounced like this ) what about other groups in other countries ?!?! so terrorism is linked to evil not a specific relegion .. then there is a symbol for every relegion and this is a basic concept that this symbol cant be touched !! in any relegion i mean .. in islamic world every one is a muslim and as our relgion order us to respect other relegions .. im from kuwait .. come live here and you will see what i mean .. freedom is a right for everyone in islam and all of the relegions .. but freedom has limits .. relegion is a big issue !! i know alot of europeans are with no relegion but at least you have to know this .. what happen of stopping buying the danish products in kuwait and islamic world is a reaction to what happened , we express by that not by holding guns and killing every danish and norwegian !! we want also to be respected and we need an official opology … its a big very elongated talk to get non muslims understand but what i can say is said .. violence is rejected in allways ..

  • You fucking cocksuckers, dont fuck with us, if you wanna get fight you get that fuckers.

    FUCK ALL CHRISTUS MOTHER FUCKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • harry

    to doener kebap .. i only want to say few words, what you said and did insulting a prophet and a symbol in islam shows that you are not even christian !!! if you were christian you wouldnt disrespect other relegions because christianity is higher than your intelectual level !!!

  • Az

    Sikerim? thanks for raising the tone of the debate… you achieved alot with your valuable contribution. Now go back and play with doener kebab in the nursery.

  • Murtaza

    Btw sorry, I had to add 1 more point.

    We are talking about a man, taht at a time when people would bury their newborn daughters since they were regarded a disgrace and women would have a “flag” tied to the front gate of their house if they were free to… He came and taught of No “Marital Relations” before Marriage, and (as still is the rules, atleast for my sect) the wedding is in control of a woman. a man cant marry a woman, only a woman can marry a man. additionally, she has no duties to him, except to ask his permission when leaving the house (for her protection, if he knows its a bad time/place) and to have “marital relations”. He has many duties to her, the main one is her sustainance, ie food water house clothes money, etc. He can divorce her, with no given reason to her (feelings perhaps), BUT this doesn’t mean he is allowed to diveorce her with no reason, he still must ahve one, and not only will he be taken to task by The Almighty, but also he must have 2 aadil (trustworthy) witnesses to the divorce, and both will ask for reasons, and will refuse if he is not giving a good enough one. The entire rules of marriage are absed around protection of a woman, and protection of marriage, so to say Islam is sexist and women need liberating is a Bush Regime ploy. Sorry guys

    PS the entire body covering issue, makes sense right, cover your body and beauty… why, well for their protection. But its their right to wear what they want. But is it for their own good? ie its a boy “right” to run into the street to fetch a ball, its his ( i know hes a child BUT THAT isn’t my point), sometimes people want whats not good for them, sometimes its ok to let them have it, sometimes, eg when it affects society at large (ie loads of rape = loads of illegitimate children, may be badly raised, single paretns, eg america :p sorry :) ) we should not let them have it…

    see my point?

  • harry

    to sikerim … please dont say what you are saying.. we muslims and christians are brothers in humanity and in life .. so please dont swear them .. what happened is not because of all of them .. islam doesnt ask us to act like this … dont get angry easy … prophet mohammed ( may peace be upon him ) said : the strong is not by force .. the strong is who hold him self when angry … so act by your relegion not by feeling …

  • harry

    thanks murtaza for all what you said : ) jazak allah kheer

  • Dennis Castle

    Murtaza ~ excellent post, I’m hosting a “Super Bowl” party today so I’ll definitely respond once it is over (unless I’ve had too many beers, then it will be even later). I do want to say I appreciate your responses and I look forward to sharing my thoughts and reading more of yours.

    Harry ~ you write “… then there is a symbol for every religion and this is a basic concept that this symbol cant be touched !!” And my response is “NONSENSE”, that is the entire controversy. You don’t have the right to tell us what we can and cannot “touch”. Who died and made you king-of-the-world? Who died and made Muhammad or Islam the lord-of-religions? You say you lived in England and you still don’t recognize how mind-numbingly arrogant that is? Your personal culture and your billion members and your wicked threats will not intimidate those of us in the West to submit our will to you, Islam, Muhammad or anyone else. As Perry said way back in this thread, the Muslims tried to conquer Europe and failed, that means you don’t get to tell them what to do. You think that you are asking for a small thing by saying our Muhammad-drawing-privileges have been revoked. Guess what? The right to freedom of thought, speech and the press is more important than all the religions and prophets in the world. It is so great that God himself gave each of us free will for that very purpose. Your attempt to revoke that in others is as godless an act as any blasphemy in your holy book.

  • harry

    to dennis ..

    what you say is right and freedom is granted to every one { dont get mad :) } but freedom is limited !! simple example for you to understand although there is no relation to what you guys are talking about is driving your car … its your freedom to drive your car at any speed but if you drive more than the max speed you will get a ticket !! you say this is law ? ok if you want to travel and go to another country you will not reject their law although its not a law by your country or relegion … for your question about who made islam the lord of relegion is god ( in quraan and sunna) at least this is what we beleive and you dont really have to beleive in it … do you know the word respect ?! it is something we dont not even related to a relegion .. if you respect others , others will respect you .. simple rule .. so if you insult islam or the prophet ( even if you dont beleive in it ) people will disrespect you … so i think that all of us care about other people ( independent of their relegion and this includes me i live and have friends that are not muslims more of the muslims and sometimes beleive me i love non muslims more than muslims in some cases and this proves that what i mean and talk about is the relegion not the followers .. can you go to a jewesh temple and insult their prophet expecting nothing ?!? i dont think so. so respect is important. me as a muslim for example i dont beleive in what hindus do by not eating meat !! but i respect this not to offer them meat or eat it infront of them !! does this take some of my freedom ?! i dont think so. you say your threatning ? what threatning … did i threat you ?!? did we threatened dannish people for example ?!? we didnt threat anybody .. by we i mean good people … you said (It is so great that God himself gave each of us free will for that very purpose) if you really beleive in god you wouldnt say ( The right to freedom of thought, speech and the press is more important than all the religions and prophets in the world) … i told you as a non muslim you will not understand easily :)) we dont order you or ask you to beleive in islam or the prophet as we respect your wishes and right. beleive me it is very simple its all about one simple word even non educated man would understand … it is (( RESPECT )) :))

  • Sorry about the crazed anti-spambot problem, I really do not know what to do about it as the database it uses is so huge, I do not know what terms might be triggering it :-( Very annoying.

    By the way guys… PLEASE use paragraph spacing as it is very hard to read solid blocks of text.

    Murtaza: I think most reasonable people would agree that in an ideal world, it would not be civil behaviour to wantonly annoy people on the basis of their religious beliefs. Taken in isolation I would like to think that Rose Flemming (editor of Jyllands-Posten) would not have done what he did. However he did what he did because he felt that Muslims in Denmark had created such a climate of intimidation that people were not doing things these particular Muslims would not like NOT because they felt it was wrong to be offensive but because they were afraid of violence. THAT is why they did what they did (and they have been quote clear on that point) and in that, I have to agree that what they did was a very effective way of demonstrating that it is not tolerable to allow one group of people to use intimidation like that, it makes no logical sense to tolerate intolerance.

    Now the fact this annoyed many other Muslims, not just the ones who were creating a climate of fear in Denmark really is regrettable: they were, if you like, collateral damage in what was actually a justifiable act when seen narrowly as a response to intimidation. However that more radical elements in the Islamic world and in Europe have chosen to escalate this into a full blown crisis does not make this more regrettable, it actually makes it more justified. When people walk down the streets of Britain threatening to cut the heads off people who disrespect Muhammed, it just proves the point that Jyllands-Posten were making. That too makes Muslims who take a VASTLY more reasonable and thoughtful position on this (such as several of the commenters here) also collateral ‘damage’ to the actions of these people too. And that sucks.

    But I am more or less left with the feeling that this, or something like it, was bound to happen given the current social dynamics and the advent of truly global communications. Face it, 20 years ago, would a significant number of Muslims have even noticed what a Danish newspaper said about Mohammed?

    Yet this all skates around three central facts:
    1. The Danes did NOTHING that they were not entitled to do in almost any modern western society. That is not going to change and it does not matter what anyone says. The right to insult is a central part of the right to free speech and more or less free speech (depending on the country) is one of the central characteristics of a modern nation and society. That is so fundamental that in any substantive way, that will not change.

    2. Muslims, in this globalised age of telecommunication, will find out what non-muslims are doing and what they think in ways that was never the case in the past. Given that what non-Muslims thinks and do is beyond the scope of Muslims to shape directly, they are going to have to find ways to cope with the fact people WILL do things that are offensive to Muslim sensibilities and many of those people will have far less noble motives than Jyllands-Posten (you have only to read some of the nastier comments from people who simply hate all Muslims above to realise that).

    3. The west can, socially even if not always politically, tolerate almost anything that does not involve threats of violence. You have only to look around on the internet to see the websites showing statues of Christ in containers of piss and Satanic Worship sites to see the truth of that. MILLIONS find such things utterly, utterly repulsive but still understand the need to tolerate it (i.e. to not send the police around to stop it from happening) on the general principle that if they don’t like it, they don’t have to look at it. Now THAT seems to me the big problem here: it is not enough for a lot of Muslims to just refuse to look at something that offends them, the mere fact it exists drives them crazy, which makes the usual response of westerners to things they hate (ignore it) unavailable to Muslims. I have no idea how to solve that problem given that westerners are never going to roll back free speech for the sake of people they do not even feel much affinity with to begin with.

  • lucy

    muslims are all nutters and should all be rounded up, sent back to their own smelly shithole of a country and then nuked to oblivion…job done, we can all get on with living civilised peaceful lives…thanks for reading

  • Thank you for that profound insight, Lucy. Keep taking the prozac.

  • Steve

    I’m tired of hearing about ‘respect.’ I don’t have to respect Muslims or anyone else if I don’t want to; that is my right. They don’t have to respect me either, and that’s their right. If they insult me or my beliefs, they can (and do regularly), and I can do the same. Respect is something earned on an individual level; if I were to meet any of you in person I would make that determination then; not now based on whether you’re Muslim or Jewish, or anything else. In my country, we have a right to free speech (and someone yelling ‘fire’ in a cinema would indeed be arrested for breaking the law) and can say and publish what we see fit to. There are those that support Hitler and his beliefs (not I, mind you), and they are allowed to voice their opinion. If someone chooses to insult Islam at its core, they have that right also. Same with insulting Christianity or Judiasm or anything else. Some might argue about social responsibility about what is being said, but the bottom line is that it CAN be said here. In the Middle East, often it isn’t allowed. There are laws forbidding it. That is their chosen leadership and that is their right. But don’t impose that will or censorship on me. Don’t threaten to behead me. Keep your beliefs and laws where they are applicable, and that place is not here, and my beliefs and laws will stay here with me. I don’t recall anyone forcing these newspapers down anyone’s throats at gunpoint. If you don’t like it; too bad. Don’t read it. I don’t care if there are 1.5 or 1.5 billion of you. There are people that don’t like you and want to insult you. You don’t like some people and want to insult them. (and behead them and burn their embassies and flags). You have a right to be offended by a few cartoons. But when more and more of you start to take that into the streets, violently, what do you think the other 5 billion of the world’s population is going to think of you? Yeah, the media tends to focus on the negative. Things like bombings, burnings, mass protests, threats; they tend to make the news. But when a whole lot of those bad things seem to be done by Muslims a majority of the time, and done a lot, what do you think the world’s perception would be?

    Don’t tell me about history either. Someone said that the Palestinians and their supporters are upset because they were displaced. And that Britons would be upset if Romans came and tried to displace them now. Well too bad. Guess what — y’all took the wrong side in WWI (as represented by the Ottoman Empire which allied as a Central Power) and lost. To the victors go the spoils. When Briton pulled out and gave the land to Israel after WWII, the surrounding Muslim countries attempted to repel them and got their asses whooped. Guess what — you lost. Too bad. Your glorious prophet went arround conquering and colonizing in his time, and that’s where y’all got to be where you are today. The other side lost those battles and that was too bad for them. That’s the way it all went down, so don’t whine about colonization or Western abuses in the 19th or 20th century (or today)because you are in North Africa, Turkey, and other places because of the same type of events.

    As far as the Jewish or Muslim racial issue, Muslims are members of Islam which is a theology or religion, as is Judiasm. The word Jew can either refer to an adherant of Judiasm — a follower of that faith (who doesn’t necessarily have to be Semetic or Hebrew); and it can also refer to a genetic Hebrew descendant. Muslims don’t necessarily have to be Arabs (a racial group), either. Correct me if I’m wrong here, because I am neither. (nor Christian for that matter).

    Sikerim, you are an idiot and have no place in this discussion. Go away.

    Oh, 1 more rebuttal: the news I’m reading is that Middle Eastern support for Bin Laden has fallen to less than 50%. Less that 30% in some places. Except Pakistan, Indonesia, and Bangladesh where it is still in the majority, and his likeness sells merchandise in the streets. So I stand corrected on my ‘majority of Muslims see Bin Laden as a a hero’ comment…. Yay! (If 30% of Americans, or French, or whoever were shown to support the teachings of Hitler and see him as a hero, I’d bet the rest of the world would shun them like a bunch of sickos).

  • Az

    Perry – got to say your previous post is spot-on. Can’t diagree with a word you say. The best way to deal with something offensive is to persuade someone their point of view is wrong and if that doesn’t work then you are better just ignoring it and not gracing it with a reply (eg Lucy and her ilks comments). You can’t (and shouldn’t) ban it.

  • I’m tired of hearing about ‘respect.’

    Yes, it is a point worth repeating. Tolerance is a right, however respect is something people have to earn.

  • doener kebab

    Great comments on my statements

    Just coming bach from our Sunday evening shooting an I can tell you I am proud to blow off muhamads head 12 times.
    After a good bootle of 92 Bordeaux my colleagues and I came to the conclusion that there is absolutely 0 (zero) tolerance on any muslim violent action anymore.

    Why?

    As I earlier explained thread was often given by Muslim terrorist and thanks to Mossad some of them disappeared in a quite efficient way.

    Again if any of the muslims is offended by any picture he/she has the choice to look at or ignore it.

    So if we are talking about respect towards humanity then explain us Westerner the execution of Westerner Civilians in front of a videocamera spreading the pictures all over the world.

    Is this the kind of respect you show?

    I couldn’t care less shooting at a cartoon in a competitive way as long as this is not a real person.

    This is not a question of christianity, it is respect towards humanity.

    As long as some (and ther is not only a few) radical muslims are dancing and celebrating every terrorist attach, every manslaughter against Westerners (an even own people as the Iraki police) we are going to shoot at muhameds shitti face.

    I am christian and I also know that Christianity murder under the name of God some time ago.

    So if you are using four letter words commenting the non belivers, I feel very good shooting between the prophet’s eyes.

    PS: This is a comment after a very good bottle of read wine. So no prozac to take
    For the end: A joke towards the Iranian.
    When Khomeini took over he spent some time for negotiations in Vienna. After a hard day of negotiations he visited the brothels in Vienna’s outskirts. The Austrian whores shouted at him:” Kom eini, Kom eini (Come on in, Come on in)”. His answer was: “Is lam, Is lam (trans. It’s not working anymore)”.

    So here in Europe everything is working fine

  • Troy

    Harry,

    As an atheist, do I get the same respect as you and your Christian brothers?

  • Troy

    I mean, I don’t believe Jesus existed and I don’t believe Muhammad was spoken to by a mystical being (Gabriel), cause I TRULEY BELIEVE all of that is Fantasy. There is no God, so all the rest are lies.

    So, am I allowed to publish my thoughts in any way I want? Or, would this be considered spreading hate and discontent.

  • theBatman

    It’s been interesting reading all your comments & posts…i’d like to put my two cents in as well. I am not a muslim, but one of my best friends is one. I have always been a tolerant human being & since my college days had a diverse set of friends, with whom i still regularly hang out with. There’s a jew, a hindu, a christian & even a parsi…and each one had their own views on Islam & muslims. Today sadly we live in a culture defined by what we see on tv & what the media feeds us; and many times we tend to form our own understanding of muslims from that. After making them meet my muslim friend, all my other friends revised their own opinions about muslims in general, and now he’s a integral part of our friend’s circle.

    What makes him stand out is that he hailed from a poor family, and at the age of five he lost his sight. His mother sent him to a islamic school, where he was conditioned to be a devout muslim, and he is – for he prays a lot for one – but going to a college which was filled with people of different cultures & religions – he also learnt how to respect what was different from what he was taught in his Islamic school. He runs a shop single handedly in an area where he is the only muslim & at any given time of the day he’s always got a customer. People don’t come to his shop because he’s blind and feel sorry for him or that because he’s a muslim we must not let our children go there; if you’re a good human being of whatever race, culture or religion; you will be respected & people will treat you as an equal. Do you know that he’s married to a catholic girl & she didn’t look at him being blind or being muslim as something to be ashamed off – she married him because she loved him.

    We should learn from such people. If you want to change someone from the way they think….educate them & expose them to different cultures & people of different races. The muslims who grow up to be radical fundamentalists and terrorists are those who were taught from an early age that the world revolves around them & their God. The muslims kids of today don’t need to be taught that…they need to be taught that all people are equal…and being a good human being is what life is all about….because we are educated as we are…we think the way we do. Think on that…

    The Batman has spoken…

  • Mohammed Shakir Hussain

    Riteee, You Stupid Danish Homo’z!!! Guess ya want a war!?!?! What were ya thinkin when ya decided 2 publish them picz!?!?! Feel sorry 4 you, guess ya wanted 2 be a target!!! Terrorism has nothin 2 do with Islam but itz jus you dumb Danish basterdz who would be stupid enuff 2 publish them!!! & we Muslimz aint az sad az u that we’re gona diss any1z elsez religion!!! The fact iz that we also believe in Jesus (Eesa, p.b.u.h)!!! So the fact iz we stupid az u dumb Danish Homoz!!! N e wayz jus 2 finish, I Feel reeealy sorry 4 yaz!!! Maybe not in this lyfe but deffo in the next!!! ENJOYYY!!!

  • christopher

    My advice to Muslims: Change your religion!!

    Get out now while you can……or can you? If its any consolation to those Muslims who are possibly contemplating Apostasy, just look at it this way….you will be the real “Martyrs”!!
    By leaving a hate driven religion your sacrifice will not go unnoticed from the true God of Love. Just one word of advice: Do it peaceably. Real Martyrs do not advocate the use of weapons or violence!
    OH! And one last bit of advice….when you do leave Islam, choose a new religion wisely. Pick one that advocates true love, peace, tolerance and acceptance for all;and if you cant find a relgion that suits these purposes, just found another religion. The world could really use a new “Prophet” these days.

  • Murtaza

    Perry:

    he felt that Muslims in Denmark had created such a climate of intimidation that people were not doing things these particular Muslims would not like NOT because they felt it was wrong to be offensive but because they were afraid of violence.

    To show this to them and the world, he made fun of them??? Its a newspaper, why not write articles, STIMULATE the mind, not invoke anger…

    NOTE to all, the number of people who are rational pro and against Islam VS the number who are irational and ANGRY!!

    The Danes did NOTHING that they were not entitled to do in almost any modern western society.

    Rights Vs Right. “they are allowed by nature of right to do anything they please” fair enough it wont change, BUT is it RIGHT to do what they did, sure they wnted to say, we will not submit to muslims, but rather than say “We will not submit to muslims” they made a mockery of the man who effectively MADE the religion, and sparked an international word-war (and perhaps a bomb war too?? lets hope and pray it doesnt get there insha’Allah. No loss of life here PLEASE!!).
    My point here is that although they CAN do it, should they? It is a matter of judgement, and they have, in my eyes, in all Muslim’s eyes and in some non-Muslims eyes (incl the EU and UN- BIG point for us, sorry guys n gals, btw if anyone calls a girl here a guy, i apologise on their behalf..) proved their incapability to use good judgement, then perhaps we should be more careful about giving them a chance to make it again, to use harrys example, driving. Man drives on other side of road, he is taken to court. will they give his license back?? He may know to make better choices, but there may have been loss of life and great great annoyance already.

    point 2:
    2. Muslims, in this globalised age of telecommunication, will find out what non-muslims are doing and what they think in ways that was never the case in the past. Given that what non-Muslims thinks and do is beyond the scope of Muslims to shape directly, they are going to have to find ways to cope with the fact people WILL do things that are offensive to Muslim sensibilities and many of those people will have far less noble motives than Jyllands-Posten (you have only to read some of the nastier comments from people who simply hate all Muslims above to realise that).

    true, very true, and we WILL see a flourish of images, guaranteed, but i think the main thing now is damage control,. but to say we cannot influence you guys is a lil extreme. Perhaps if these people knew what the Prophet was like they wouldnt do this, and if they did know what he was like (prom true sources, because there is a lot of bull circulating..) then they wouldn’t have done this, regardless of what terrorists, Muslims, or ANYONE else did, its NOT him, so why mock him?? mock ALL muslims in the world today (Not Ayatullahs, since thats gona be another war..) but bar that, id love to see what you got, i mean, feel free to make fun of us, just be sensible you know, no need to go to EXTREMES, because any extreme is bad, right. If not enough freedom is bad, then too much freedom is bad too, too much of a good thing… well, anywho, we have been here. point is exercise caution control and common sense (3 Cs, not bad eh ;) )

    Point 3: [Scroll up, lazy :p ]

    na uh, there are a whole load of sites talking of the Prophet PBUH and even Muslim sites against other Muslims (i dont know, im just assuming..). My point is this is different on that first off its on a wider scale, and second it was appealed against from the Muslim Community, and third off it WILL fuel stereotypes by the likes of this here who hate Muslims with such a passion they are too blind to think WHY they hate it and go for it anyway. It was NOT the RIGHT descision to make. THIS end result was foreseen, by ANY Muslim, or non-Muslim. i cannot say this enough so im gona put it in a speciual area:

    ______________________________________________________________________

    READ THIS::::!! MESSAGE FROM MUSLIMS:

    WE DON’T WANT YOUR FREE SPEECH. YOU CAN HAVE IT!! WE DO NOT WISH FOR YOU TO BE MUSLIMS, NOR DO WE WISH TO BEHEAD YOU OR YOUR FAMILIES.

    WE ASK THAT ALTHOUGH YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY WHAT YOU WILL, TO CONSIDER OTHER’S FEELINGS, AND IF THERE IS SO MUCH HATRED IN YOUR HEART FOR US NOT TO SIMPLY LET IT OUT IN A TORRENT OF ABUSE, BUT TO THINK ABOUT IT. TALK TO A MUSLIM, SAY WHY DID YOU e.g. BOMB XYZ PLACE…

    DO NOT THINK WE WANT TO CONQUER THE WEST, YOU CAN HAVE IT!! JUST HAVE AN OUNCE OF RESPECT FOR US. I IMPLORE YOU..

    ____________________________________________________________________

    Yeah, so we don’t want your free speech (havent we covered this before. on like every post?? we want you to control yourselves, be civil. I’m sure such a civilised west, where evryone has rights etc won’t go around and insult people like that if they are indeed so civilised.. food for thought…

    Lucy, wake up, then write a message.

    Steve:

    I’m tired of hearing about ‘respect.’ I don’t have to respect Muslims or anyone else if I don’t want to; that is my right. They don’t have to respect me either, and that’s their right

    mmm, what would hapen in a world where no-one respects each other. which is somewhat the west, I mean children swaering at parents, and then at family,a nd then at teachers, and then a people walking down the street and then killing people because they are a certain race creed etc. (yes I know, there are examples of Muslims doing that, NOT the point here..) My point is, unless you want the world to spiral into a cesspool of crap, there has to be some respect maintained. with rape, killings, teenage pregnancies (a 12 year old i heard of the other day..), and all the other problems face here in the super-civilised, super-smart, super-perfect west, don’t you think we went off at a tangent somehwere…? (Notice WE, i live here too buddy, im not tryna kill ya or anything, just wana make my money, live, love and die of natural causes… Jihad sounds good, straight to heaven, but not gona happen soon.. No wars that are truly religious for ME to fight. Also, you may not know this but the daily struggle not to sin and to stay on the right path ie no drinking, no drugs, no sex before marriage, no wife beating, no killing, etc is known as Jihad-e-Kabira (The great Jihad) and dyoing for Allah is known as Jihad-e-Saghira (you guessed it, yup, the SMALL Jihad. Simply because it is easier). ) so yeah, loads of fundemental problems here, maybe, do you think, they are due to a lack of respect for humainty. I mean, if we dont repect humainty, we wouldnt care taht the entire third world is starivng and CHILD just died. aaaand another. aaaaand another. O wait, I live in London, I dont get the feeling many people DO care. BUT in Islam, we must, not only are we all considered brothers and sisters in Islam, but regardless of religion, Allah has said (we believe) that the rich people are here as the hosts on the earth to the poorer people, and on the Day of Judgement (say what you will) we will be answerable to Him as to what we did with our wealth… So. you DO have a human responsibility to respect otehrs. Unless ofcourse you are exempt from taht ( you are human im assuming ;) )

    In the Middle East, often it isn’t allowed. There are laws forbidding it

    Personally I think that ensuring people respect one another is quite good…? no? i wont go and spit in your face since I dont like your clothes…

    Guess what — you lost. Too bad. Your glorious prophet went arround conquering and colonizing in his time, and that’s where y’all got to be where you are today. The other side lost those battles and that was too bad for them. That’s the way it all went down, so don’t whine about colonization or Western abuses in the 19th or 20th century (or today)because you are in North Africa, Turkey, and other places because of the same type of events.

    hehe, dont you love those who listen to what anyone says and takes it as gospel truth… brotehr or sister, im gona side with brother on this one, I explained earlier taht it wasnt a case off give me your land and peace out.. i know its a long post, but seems like you read it, so could you find taht, and leme know what you thought…?

    as far as Jews being a race. A genetic Hebrew Decendant. Me no understand, sorry I dont gedit. a person whose forefathers were Hebrew… Hebrew being.. Jewish? because tahts to say you cant be Jewish unless your ancestors were.. I have heard about this but, A WORD TO THE WISE: I DONT BELIOEVE WHAT I HEAR STRAIGHT AWAY…

    If 30% of Americans, or French, or whoever were shown to support the teachings of Hitler and see him as a hero, I’d bet the rest of the world would shun them like a bunch of sickos

    all those percentages. where did ya get em, i wana c…
    Well, here are your choices: a guy called Bin Laden, who aparently is here to get the Americans out of your country, and with them they will take their bombings etc, or America who came and killed loads of your family and friends. And bearing in mind there exist factions and sects that are the same as his, they may support him simply for that. But hose stats, a sample of how many? done by who.. hope you got refrences or im afraid i cant accept them to be true….

    Perry:
    Yes, it is a point worth repeating. Tolerance is a right, however respect is something people have to earn.

    A theory i have wanted to air for aaages. respect I believe is like trust. When you dont know someon, you still trust the, To an extend,. you wont share your deepest secrets, but you wont run away from them. you “nothing” them. Now I think the same is for respect. If someone does something really stupid, you lose respect for them, if they do something amazing, you gain respect. cool. BUT if you dont know them, you still respect them, to an extent, again, nothing-ing them. When you nothing someone as far as respect goes, you wouldn’t show respect, eg sya PBUH after the Prophets name.. Not a problem.. BUT when you nothing someone you dont mock them. atlest thats my thought. But id say, go onto the street, do you have urges to make fun of people you walk past, i mean really humiliate them?
    Predicted reply: but hes a Muslim/Mulim leader, and Mulsims did XYZ. SOOO WHAT, Hitler was a christian, Albeit not a good one, and we have heard the stories.
    Botoom line here is, if you dont know the Propeht PBUH, dont mock him. If you dont like a group of people(say you fear them like in denmark) mock them..

    aaah doener. you came back.. OK so you say that people killing people on camera is bad. So why do they do it? Americans have come and with them came a surge in deaths of their people. Some are held captive with families having no idea of whats hapening, some lose children, wives, mothes fathers etc, at every age, beacuse a missile strike went wrong, AAgain (say about a million now eh?). and there are still things going wrong, scuiside bombs, etc. so the Iraqis ask. “Whhy did america come here, we had our children, our fathers etc when Saddam was here, atelast we were together, now they are dead.” Thus anger, and wanting to get America out at all costs. So tahts WHY, what do you propose as your solution. Shoot the caricature of a dead Prohet..? great idea bone-a-kebab. (i thought you wanted one too…)
    But yeah, i NEVER used a four letter word to ANY of you… so what do you have against me? If nothing, then I ask you, as a personal favour. Hopefully I have earnt a little respect from you, if not then as a fellow human. Please stop cursing the Prohpet PBUH and Muslims, lets use our minds to think about a solution, not a new problem. what do you say?
    Thanks either way. For reading atleast..

    Troy:
    As an atheist, do I get the same respect as you and your Christian brothers?

    heres a cool answer. In Islam, to kill ANY innocent person, ie no regard to religion, to Allah is like killing all of mankind. so yup..

    So, am I allowed to publish my thoughts in any way I want? Or, would this be considered spreading hate and discontent.

    note the difference, you are thinking, posing a question, stating your beliefs in a civil and non-abusive way, so go for it, tell me you think that there is no God and we can talk, debate ang go the whole 9 yards.. But don’t draw MY Prophet PBUH as a terrorist, just to show the world that LOOK, WE CAN DRAW THE MOST HOLY MAN IN A RELIGION AS A TERRORIST!! HAHAH!! what will taht do? Is that stating a belief? is it making a joke? or is it inciting hatred?? hmmmm

    The Batman. Amazing, that is truly a great post. Thanks for the two cents, they touched my heart.
    your friend has a great story there, alow me to share one of the man depicted as a terrorist. This is from hadith, feel free to ask any (non radicallist is preffered) Muslim Scholar about it..

    The Prophet PBUH in his time in Mecca would walk to the Mosque. On the way, every day a woman would throw her rubbish out of the window at him. he would always end up injured and someitmes Ali (a.s. – peace be upon him) would have to shield him, just to protect him. This was a continuous cycle, and continued for some time. One day he noticed that she wasnt throwing rubbish, so he told his companion(s) (a little rusty on the story) that he had to go and visit her. when asked why he said that she must not be well, that she is not there, let us atleast enquire about her. He went and indeed she was ill, but he took time to sit and talk to her. story ends with her converting to Islam.
    Another one, this is about the (rightful?? lets not start that) successor of the prophet, Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib(a.s. – peace be upon him), when he was martyred, at the time he was struck on the head with a poisoned sword he was praying. When the people fpund the man and brough him infront of Imam, He offered him the milk he had been given, and tol them to loosen the knots on his hands as they were too tight and were hurting him.

    How can the figure who taught this man be a terrorist. If the Danes didn’t believe that he is a terrorist then why draw it. If they do believe that he is then as a nation they are amazingly ignorant and need to research.. education should be very easy in this day and age, why is it so many people are not…?

    Mohammed, DUUUDE chill. nutter.

    So the fact iz we stupid az u dumb Danish Homoz!!!

    WE?? Speak for yaself bro. sorry, but ur outa line here… read the thread..

    MY advice to Christopher, gt YOUR brain not the one the media sent you.. sorry:

    Christopher. so ignorant.. its just sad mate..

    By leaving a hate driven religion your sacrifice will not go unnoticed from the true God of Love. Just one word of advice: Do it peaceably. Real Martyrs do not advocate the use of weapons or violence!
    OH! And one last bit of advice….when you do leave Islam, choose a new religion wisely. Pick one that advocates true love, peace, tolerance and acceptance for all;and if you cant find a relgion that suits these purposes, just found another religion. The world could really use a new “Prophet” these days.

    PLEASE, i IMPLORE YOU!! show me where ISLAM (not terrorism) is a religion that is “hate driven”. How can a religion be hate driven? anywho, sorry guy but u know not what you speeketh (are saying). READ!! BE EDUCATED!!

    i know to alot of you guys stories or quotes are worthless, but im saying them so that you can see what you dont see on the TV (its too “boring”, they probably wont let it even be on daytime..), but In Islam the Prophet PBUH said “gain knowledge from cradle to grave”. Or was that the Qur’an. I get confused. Perry or Steve i think it was, who had read the Qur’an. do u remeber?

    Anywho, you gota learn to know. you never get the whole story from one side of the people…

    sorry for the long posts, its a habbit now… hehe, if u guys made less points for me to counter then it would be easier…

    FREEDOM OF SPEECH!! NOT ABSOLUTE, BUT STILL EXISTANT!!
    i.e. read my special message above :) bye and Salaams to all of you

    PS THanks for the support :D

  • Murtaza

    just a thought from earlier posts, Where is verity? s/he was soooo happy doin Islam-bashing or Muslim-bahsing (sorry, not familiar with this technical term). would love to hear his/her point of view…

    Don’t be shy.

    This includes earlier posters. And none of the bone-a-kebab business of “I HATE THIS AND THANT AND SCRW THE WORLD AND IM AN ANGRY DISTURBED PERSON!!!” we wana hear sensible discussion, unless youre afraid ;) cumon… lets hear from ya

  • Murtaza

    further to my recent post:

    SAY WHY DID YOU e.g. BOMB XYZ PLACE..

    with this comment i accept NO responsibility and neither do my true Muslim Brothers or Sisters, directly or inderectly, for any bombings. It was a suggestion since the stereotype suggests that all Muslims bombed something at some point.

    apologies for any confusion

    with regards from myself and as a suggestion from my older brother.
    Wasalaam to all

  • Citizen Alex

    I think Frattini is a gutless bastard. I wonder if he even knows what the Sharia dictates? Chamberlain would indeed be proud of this idiot. With the benefit of his guidance, his unfortunate children – and ours – will probably find out about Sharia, in detail, soon enough.

    Fascism is on the march again, this time not just in Frattini’s homeland, but pan-Europe, the Middle East and Asia together. Why? Same genesis as last time – political opportunism, but this time under the guise of (and tempered by) a big dose of religious insanity. The question is, are we wise enough this time round to neither underestimate the strength of these evil, racist people, nor delay too long in taking definitive action to protect our way of life?

    Last time, delay cost the Western alliance 10 million lives, cost the Russians twice that, the Chinese probably as many again – who knows – and 10 million more in gas-ovens inspired by the Nazi equivalent of Sharia.

    There can be no doubt that our western civilisation is being white-anted from within by an intollerant racist cult that is preying on our tollerance and good-will. When the war starts in earnest, if it hasn’t already, we should drag Frattini and his Euro-Bureau mates out from under their beds and stand the bastards in the front line. His children, and ours, will be the safer for their passing.

  • christopher

    Murtaza…….I feel sorry for you. This is not just a polite platitude but a genuine human reaction to the situation that you now face.
    The Prophet Mohammed said he was a man of God, he was also a man of the sword. In his lifetime, he not only founded a religion but also, a political system. He led armies and conquered territories. Its very easy for Muslims to “follow in his footsteps”.

    No Christian can justify fighting in any form, not even in self defense. It took over two hundred years to form the Christian religion, it still does not represent the precepts of its founder. Jesus was a man of peace and teacher of love.

    Buddha is also a man of peace and love. Which Buddhist can justify hurting a person much less an animal? Which Christian can justify hate?

    I have been to Egypt, Marocco, Tunisia and Turkey and everywhere I went, every Muslim I met, admired Adolph Hitler. Sad isn’t it? That kind of thought is still very pervasive in the middle east.
    I started reading the Koran, but had to stop. I’d had enough of the “death to the infidels” rhetoric that its so filled with. I also used to think that the Capitalists were the westerners, how wrong I was. Reluctantly I had to admit to myself; the arabs made westerners look like innocent babes when it came to greed. This I did not get from “TV”. I lived with natives, not hiding in some five star Hotel. There was always an ulterior motive for any act of kindness.
    I pray in Hindu Temples, Buddhist Temples and Churches. When I asked my Muslim friends to take me to the Mosque to pray I was told “Its not allowed”. That made me think. No non-muslim is allowed in Mecca. Why? Converting a Muslim is punishable by death. Why? Leaving the Islamic faith is punishable by death. Why? I am just a simple person Murtaza, but things like that are incomprehensible to me and my sentiments. Where were the Muslims when the Buddha statue in Afganistan was blown up? Don’t you think that that is more offensive than a silly cartoon? Where were the violent protests in the Buddhist world against that? You know that many of your fellow believers relish the thought of destroying non-muslims….are you happy about that? I have been in churches where they pray for their Muslim brothers, do Muslims pray for their christian, Hindu and Buddhist brothers? I hope they do, but please, tell them to pray louder. Since I can’t go to the Mosque to pray with them, do that for me. Go for me and pray with your brothers for peace on this planet…and if they dont want to do that, take my advice and leave. There are many people in this world who believe in God, you can join with them to pray for everyone.

  • Steve

    My case is rested on ‘respect.’ I don’t respect anyone with no regard to reasonable grammar or spelling(occasional typos aside). Patience to proofread is a virtue….

    If you Muslims are all ‘brothers’ then why can’t you keep from shooting up yourselves? Or those minority (or majority — the difference eludes me) who want to butcher westerners; why can’t those hateful protests (and burnings, beheddings, kidnaps, bombings) be contained?

    I’m wondering if the thread I’m alluding to here even warrants a response….

    I wonder where this crap about a jihad or religious war comes from? Wasn’t this posting about a few off-the-wall cartoons? It seems to me the Muslim world is itching for an excuse for this ‘war’. Or is it a few? Or a majority? Someone let me know….

    My sources today:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/14/AR2005071401030_2.html

    http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=248

    http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?PageID=796

    (I’m referring to the Bin Ladan favor-rating stats here)

    I still firmly believe in freedom of speech (regardless of whom it offends), and welcome any peaceful protests in front of my house that disagree. Anyone trying to burn my house down on the other hand will be shot on site….

  • Lala Patakar

    Hi all,

    Recently there was a call from a lady of african origin (I cant remember her name) who called for a reform on islam.

    I think most religions are practising good paths but its the people that take it wrongly.

  • kik

    at this point it doesn’t matter whether the drawings were an application of the freedom of speech or any kind of freedom, all that matters is that people n my country (Lebanon) had to pay the price for someone else’s words, and someone else’s beliefs. I am as ashamed to call these rioters my compatriots as i am of the people who found it fun to mess with the beliefs of a highly non-tolerating community. How does your conscience feel about us paying the price?

  • M Chao

    I had always thought free speech does not include freedom to insult unprovoked. If it did, then loads of people should be entirely free to torch up embassies and do whatever else they thought fit.

    Was that an incorrect understanding?

    I thought freedom to speak up on some truth (e.g. that the earth is not flat) was never confuded with freedom from to insult some other people and their beliefs (that the earth is flat), however bizzare those may seem to us. The former is objective and not directed at something personal; the latter is not about independently observable facts but all about personal attacks. Basic human decency demands that we accept the former but reject the latter.

    I had also thought many of the world’s leading editors knew this difference. When the Taliban demolished the Bamiyan Buddha statues, there were many who said that was seriously out of line, including many Muslim political and religious leaders. These cartoons are one thing, their being published on Jyllands Posten is another; but their being re-published again and again on various newspapers elsewhere is yet another matter.

    Drawing on the Satanic Verses analogy, I never thought it was a good piece of literature. I was somewhat irked by Pulitzer giving it an award. I remember it never achieved best seller status until when the Ayatollah put a death threat on it and after that it went on sale. So I thought the book, the award, and death threat all distasteful, but the worst of all was the disproportiate publicity that amplified it all.

    To me, the distatesfulness of this whole thing is now out of proportion and difficult to finese around. And the embassy torchings are looking less unacceptable as this spate continues. There is always some room for some bad taste to take place and be bygone; but the carrying on and on and the hate speech against Muslims are clearly disproportionate.

    Has the post-modern mankind degenerated from fondess for every junk food to every hateful slander? If this is true, there is a problem: because the favorite whipping boy keeps changing over the times. It was the Roman Catholic church, now it is Arabs/Muslims. Who’s next? And who is to say that is right, and why?

    If only we can all learn to remain a little more silent on our personal opinions against others.

  • Nadia

    This anger comes from our love to our prophet and this love comes from our faith by GOD.

    And the cartoon which was made by Danish reflects their education level, their knowledge level, and their characteristics in general. If they are really educated people, they would know something about Islam and read about it before talking about it from their bad imagination.

    every one has the right to tell his opinion about islam, or any other relegion, that will be fine but no one has the right to insult others religion. why do you want to bring hate,you give justification for extremist to grow, you dont help good people to stand with you.

    ,so if the newspaper has the freedom of speech, we have the freedom to express our anger any suitable way!

  • No Christian can justify fighting in any form, not even in self defense.

    I do not know how you figure that. There are many type of Christianity but certainly the largest denomination, the Catholic Church, is quite clear about that: you have the right to defend yourself and moreover, there is a quite well known and well thought out Catholic concept of ‘the Just War Doctrine’(Link).

  • Murtaza

    Alex:
    I wonder if he even knows what the Sharia dictates?

    oh wise one, teach us since we are so stupid to be reading what you write… come on, WE are Muslims, we KNOW what Shari’a dictates. if it was so bad then we would be burying our head in sand saying “i hope they don’t find out”. BUT we are here, talking.

    So, Muslims are like nazi’s?? There have not been bombings because we want to convert you. Although the main groups may have that objective, they have support because
    a) they want their land back
    b) they are distraught at having seen their family members dying/dead/ in PIECES after bombs by the worlds self-elected “good-guy” police
    c) you get the idea

    read my last post.

    Steve, hope you are well…

    My case is rested on ‘respect.’ I don’t respect anyone with no regard to reasonable grammar or spelling(occasional typos aside). Patience to proofread is a virtue….
    :D thanks, but i hope thats not me, as a programmer/ Comp Sci student i type alot, and im on a laptop now, so keys r tighter. missing everything, and also i have a whole lot of habitual mistakes…

    If you Muslims are all ‘brothers’ then why can’t you keep from shooting up yourselves? Or those minority (or majority — the difference eludes me)

    Hehe, funyy eh.. :( well, there are sect5s, for example that view my sect as worse than all of you guys (“non believers”) so we are killed just like taht. There are whole loads of those sorts of differences, some wish to capitalise on the chnace to spread the WORD, some want to kill us since we are disrespecting “someone” (could be anyone, eg, the three Khalifs before Imam Ali (a.s.)..) but you dont wana know our entire religious debates.. but that in a nutshell why. and now you guys came and disrespected him, so the insane NON-”Muslims have moved their cross-hairs…

    as far as beheadings and kidanppings, I told you about those earlier bro..

    Why can’t they be contained. hm interesting. Perhaps support for them would die down if Islam wasn’t in the cross-hair of the west. and if it isn’t then stop shooting at it anyway… I know alot of you have nothing against Islam, but fact is that was the Propeht PBUH on those pictures, why not any other religion at the same time and only ours? soulda been “your picture of a religious important person caricature” competition, then we know its not based at us, even if they were all of our Prophet PBUH. BUT that is STILL DISRESPECTFUL!!! Respect is required, regardless of how free to say thing you are.

    Steve, my driving on the wrong side of road is totally you. It is what you are arguing. stop and think about it. You have freedom of speech. You can say anything you want. Even if it offends me. e.g. “I believe there is no God”. But there is a massssive line, etween stating beliefs, reasoning, and being civil; and mockery. mockery is simply going to aggrivate people. you notice in the world until now there was never this issue before, about drawing the Prophet PBUH as such. why? He wasnt drawn. again, why? RESPECT. simple, there has to be a level of respect, and this respect is what stops you from mocking someone and simply stating beliefs. again, why didnt they write a headline. “Muslims in Denmark are being jackasses”? Thats not offensive to ANY religion. its a group of people in Denmark. I have no problem with that, if its true, if its not i would like to see an apology but who would bomb for it? When you make a sweeping statement, sorry a sweeping mockery of Islam and its people, then you are inciting war. are we really itching for it, or are you (not personally) poking us??

    Dude, you never heard of the Silent Majority. Its the ones who are being loudest who are a few, since they want to have the majority with them, if it was the majority, it would be the better side of a billion. i.e. BIG WAR BY NOW!!

    Christopher,
    You feel sorry for me, in that you empathise with me, or you think im a lil stupid? or a lot stupid? feel free to say, its your right… ;)

    “follow in his footsteps”.

    how so. Islam is a religion that recognises there are times when war is necessary, or violence is necessary. eg when the Prophet PBUH was in Medina, caravans from his people and town were always looted by the Mecans who hated him. So there had to be a war… the Battle of Badr.

    But this is a volatile statement, and it is so easy to use as an excuse. ISLAM DOES NOT SAY SHOOT ANYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH YOU… cant stress that enough. It is in essence a non violent religion, and that is why when going to new lands it was peaceful, but if there was tolerance or co-operation, then there needed to be war…

    everywhere I went, every Muslim I met, admired Adolph Hitler.

    really? I find this hard to believe. Possibly if it is true would be since they don’t understand the reasons behind, or even the actions of Hitler. ie they saw him as a guy who said, jews are bad, and they relate to that with Israel. not evryone has your levels of understanding…

    The references to the Quran. reffer to my earlier posts. Unlike the Holy Bible, the Quran is not simple, reading the meanings are not so simple. you eed to read explanations to understand it, you cant read the translation and say, wow they hate everyone. Did you not find anything in there that made sense to you? How far did you get?

    The Buddah being blown up issue has been adressed.

    Your questions. I do not know all the answers, and the capitalism in the middle east, I know. It is bad, but that isn’t Islam now is it? (btw i dont know if its all true, there was a whole lot of sweeping statements there, and those are generally totally wrong…) reffer to my last post, near the end, the Hadith (or “stories”), even if you dont believe they are true, the point is hey are teachings. It is what we should follow…

    Although non-Muslims are not allowed in Mosques, they are allowed to go to seminars/peoples houses where there are gatherings (Majalis)/etc. Mosques themselves are for praying, and are like the homes of Allah, thus very sacred and very bound by rules…

    Im sorry about the converting/ted being punishable by death, I have not the knowledge to reply that, so someone else please….

    kik, I regret this has happened, and on behalf of Muslims all over the world I would like to offer my condolences for any losses caused by people who may have done this as terrorist actions, but you can’t say they weren’t provoked.. But sorry…

    lala, she would be right.

    Nadia, M Chao, nice ones, im on your sides…

    as a last note, i notice that this site itself is on the Denmark side, with imags here and there saying “Support Denmark, no Burka on free speech”. you think tahts a good idea? provocation after provocation, and then complaining that people have been provoked. funny eh…

  • I had always thought free speech does not include freedom to insult unprovoked. If it did, then loads of people should be entirely free to torch up embassies and do whatever else they thought fit. Was that an incorrect understanding?

    Yes, it is a completely incorrect understanding. Freedom of speech is not the same as freedom of action to use violence. Burning down an embassy is violence. Likewise my exersise of freedom of speech to insult you does NOT prevent you exersising your freedom of religion.

    I thought freedom to speak up on some truth (e.g. that the earth is not flat)

    And who gets to decide what the ‘truth’ is?

    was never confuded with freedom from to insult some other people and their beliefs (that the earth is flat),

    But what is the people who think the earth is flat will riot and burn embassies down if I publish that opionion in a Danish newspaper? Why should my ability to say they be contingent on how other people will react to it, just as long as I am not calling for amyone to be murdered?.

    If only we can all learn to remain a little more silent on our personal opinions against others.

    No, absolutely not. To do that is to allow other to use intimidation to silence opinions they do not what to hear expressed. Try to silence me and you guarantee I will shout my opinions from the roof tops.

  • you think tahts a good idea? provocation after provocation, and then complaining that people have been provoked. funny eh…

    There is a well known phrase in the west that all children learn:

    “Sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me”

    It seems to me that people in the Muslim world never learned this. As I said to M Chao, when faced with violence and intimidation, the only response to those who would use violence and intimidation to silence things they do not what to hear is to shout your views from the rooftops and throw your opinions in their faces.

    There can be no compromise with intimidation or you just encourage more of it.

    Murtaza… try using the “quote” button to make what the other person said seperate from what you are writting as your comments can be very confusing sometimes trying to pick out which bits are you and which are someone else!

  • every one has the right to tell his opinion about islam, or any other relegion, that will be fine but no one has the right to insult others religion. why do you want to bring hate,you give justification for extremist to grow, you dont help good people to stand with you.

    Can I insult racists? Can I insult fascists? Can I insult satanists? In fact can I insult anyone I find loathsome? If not, why not? If yes, then what if I also find Islam loathsome? Who gets to decide who I can insult?

    so if the newspaper has the freedom of speech, we have the freedom to express our anger any suitable way!

    So you think acts of violence are equal to acts of expression? Well if that reallly is a widespread view in your community, I am glad about all that tax money I have taken from me and spent on our nifty high tech military because violence is something the west is very good at when it decides it is time to ‘express’ itself violently. Are you sure you want to reduce things to that level?

  • at this point it doesn’t matter whether the drawings were an application of the freedom of speech or any kind of freedom,

    No Kik, that is the only thing that matters to me.

    all that matters is that people n my country (Lebanon) had to pay the price for someone else’s words, and someone else’s beliefs. I am as ashamed to call these rioters my compatriots as i am of the people who found it fun to mess with the beliefs of a highly non-tolerating community.

    That is rather like blaming a rape victim for being raped because she ‘provoked’ the rapist by going out in public rather than blaming the rapist for refusing to show self-control. The blame does not lie with the people doing the provoking, it lies with the people doing to reacting.

    How does your conscience feel about us paying the price?

    Just fine thanks. You need to direct your anger at the people who are actually extracting a price from you, not the excuse they use to do that.

  • christopher

    Perry
    No Christian can justify fighting in any form, not even in self defense.

    I do not believe the Catholic Church represents the true teachings of Jesus. The early christians did not defend themselves and were exempt from military service. There is nothing in the New Testament where Jesus can be quoted as supporting violence in ANY form. What churches say and do in the name of God do not have to be condoned by people who are able to read and think for themselves.

    Murtaza, I have no bad feelings towards you. I just empathise with your situation of feeling it necessary to defend a religion. I myself would never defend a religion. I am able to think for myself and personally do not approve of religions even though I am a Believer. They (religions) have constantly been mis-used and will continue to be misused by politics and individual gain.

    And one last thing Murtaza, what kind of House of God closes its door to some? Is it not that some people think they can speak for God, Gods wishes, desires and “rules”. Who made those “rules”?
    The God I pray to is Love and leaves no-one excluded. The God I pray to loves the unbeliever just as much as He loves the believer…….God, who is eternity, can wait for everyone to find their way to Him. What is this small life of ours when compared to the age of the Universe? Do you think that God would only give His children one way to find themselves to Him? We all can’t have the same profession because of individual talents and interests, why should we then all have the same religion or any religion at all? Human beings are only reflecting their Creator when they allow diversity……
    If I was a member of a religion that closed its doors to ANYONE and I mean anyone, I would run away as fast as I could, reassured in my inner self that that which I was leaving was not the way to find true peace and happiness and oneness with God.
    In Islam the door is closed in the beginning and once one is a member the door is closed again!! Just try leaving and opening that door Murtaza, you wont be posting any more messages in here if you try that!! This religion is in my opinion one that forces people to stay IN, there is no way OUT.
    God however lets us come and go at our own pace and speed, never threatening, never cajoling, but patiently waiting for us to open our hearts to His outpouring of Love and Mercy.

  • No Christian can justify fighting in any form, not even in self defense.

    You remark is simply factually wrong. Most christlans do indeed justify the use of violence under certain conditions. If you had said “I THINK no Christian should justify…” I would have just pointed out that most Christian disagree with you and moved on.

    Of course as a former Catholic and current agnostic, what Jesus may or may not have said does not interest me all that much, but the objective principles invioled can get interesting.

    To be honest I regard your position as grotesque. To tolerate evil towards others (and yourself) by refusing to use force, when force is likely to be effective, to prevent evil is to in fact condone evil.

    It is no different to watching someone drown and just shrugging and saying “Inshallah” (or even “Deus Wult”). I do not find that admirable in the slightest (not that you are under any obligation to care what I think, of course).

  • Jowhara

    Okay, first of all, i would like to say that people shouldnt talk about something they dont kno sh*t about. I’ve seen the cartoons, but I also know the background of the prophet Mohammed (Peace be Upon him).
    If people are ignorant, thats no one’s fault. It isnt our responsiblity to teach them about Islam or anything else, but they shouldnt go around writing and talkin about this as if they know anything. The ignorance that all Eurpoean countries and the US really amazes me, but atleast the US was more sensible that they didnt publish cartoons depicting a religious icon in the first place!!! Which impressed me. And to all who think that we come from the desert, imposing are primitve ideas and beliefs, well you SHOULD THEN GET OUT OF YOUR CAVE and look at the world around you.
    The prejeduce of the world nowadays, believe me if it were Jehova or David or Jesus… Ohho hoo hoo.. LIFE on Earth would STOP!
    Anyways, God will give us justice, if it isnt now, then in the future, Oh and i would like to add that no body gives a rat’s ass if YOU (or whoever is reading this right now) dont believe in GOD. That is a personal choice. Screw politics and benifits, no body is talkin about the UN or Other countries, I’m talking about mutual respect and tolerence inwhich we were living in, (although there wasnt much tollerence of respect) but what the hell! People should RESPEct one another.

  • Dennis Castle

    Christopher ~ excellent posts, though I disagree with your view that Christians can’t defend themselves. Jesus spoke of rendering unto Caesar and that can mean military service. Jesus spoke of not being able to steal from a strong man unless you tie the person up, which only makes sense if the strong man defends himself and his property, Paul wrote that God has given the state the sword for a purpose, and then there is the overturning the tables in the Temple as well as one clear statement where Jesus tells his followers to buy a sword (though this could refer to traveling in the wilderness and not lopping off peoples extremities). I am familiar with the Quaker (pacifist) arguments around those verses and respect them, I am not saying “I am right and they are wrong”, I am just saying reasonable people can reach different conclusions on the matter.

    Murtaza ~ I have a long list of verses from the Koran (I am sorry it bugs you that we don’t spell it with a “Q”, but it’s a transliteration of an Arabic word, which means it is spelled phonetically, and there isn’t a perfect English letter that represents that Arabic sound) and perhaps you will have explanations similar to my response to Christopher above (perhaps you will say “when it reads ‘believers, retaliation is decreed for you in bloodshed … slay them wherever you find them … fighting is obligatory for you … do not make friends with anyone other than your own people … etc.’ it really means that we are the religon of peace and should love our ourselves, love our neighbors and love our enemies … oops, that was the other guy that said that!); I would hate to side-track this discussion (but only because this discussion is so pertinent, not because I wouldn’t love to hear your commentary on those extreme verses) and confuse the issue, which is this:

    Do I have the right to think, say and print disagreeable things?

    You have made it extremely clear that you believe that Westerners can have such freedom up to a point and others have asked where that point is. Your response is up to the point where it makes you really mad. The answer to that, of course, is that isn’t a clear enough mark (I mean, you say I can’t draw Muhammad but Muslims all over the world are going crazy burning the Danish flag which, last time I checked, had a Christian cross on it!). So, please put on your “lawyer” hat and spell out as clearly as possible where you believe the boundary should be on our freedoms so we can weigh it in the balance and see where we agree and disagree.

  • harry

    to steve :

    replying to what you said about respect is 100% correct and i as a muslim agree completely. but about insulting muslims do it.. for me its ok .. insult me this is your right .. but dont caompare insulting people by insulting relegious prophets !! prophet mohammed to us is the one who transfered islam to people .. he is the last prophet of allah .. and he is the most sacred person to muslims .. do you compare to crazy hitler ?!? or to the dog saddam hussain ?? or to bush even ?!? they are people like me and you .. i accept them being insulted … but when reaching the respect of relegions and prophets who even the human rights organization issued some laws about is different .. you said ((Don’t tell me about history either)) you are right .. history cant change nothing .. do you want the prove ?? at the ages in europe the islamic empire was in its highest levels of sceince, relegion, art, and every thing .. but this is now opposite .. europe is much better in art and science .. i dont agree to muslims who say look at our history .. they say WE WERE !! were ?? what are you now ?!? so its a big issue … the palestine issue must not be discussed as it is a clear issue. you say muslims like bin laden .. me for example im a dentist from kuwait im kuwaiti and muslim (( i consider my self relegious)) but we here all kuwaities dont like osama bin laden and consider him a terrorist and not even a muslim because of what is he doing have no relation to islam .. simply he`s got money, and he is crazy. but ask your self who is binladen and from where he came ?? do you know that he was built by USA at the soviet-afghanistan war so the americans prevent the enlargment of USSR ?? they gave him money, guns, rockets, helicopters even. after the war is finished they left afghanistan alone and this what gave them chance to build up. so many muslims in most of the countries consider binladen a terrorist. do you think we were happy to what happened in 9/11 in NY ? for sure not .. do you think we are happy for innocent people to be killed ?? no for sure .. do you know that even ourself here in kuwait are threatened by terrorist attack by alqaeda and bin laden ??? it is because kuwait is a big ally for USA .. then there is a fact .. if you say some countries like pakistan they still like bin laden ? these countries they are really poor people and non educated although muslims .. also most of them are sheea`a muslims and they got influenced by thier leaders really .. so compare for example muslim countries like kuwait, emirates, saudi arabia by north africa or syria, jordan, or south west countries in asia you will find a big difference.. we here have freedom in all of its forms .. but for sure as what you have in euorope social morals have some effect .. yes you can do what ever you want, but there are limits .. yes you can walk naked in the streets but is this accepted by people ?? do you feel its ok for you ?? you are wrong about that we like osama bin laden, he is a BIG TERRORIST … maybe you didnt understand what i mean by “RESPECT“ thats why you are pissed but maybe im not really so good on explaining .. our life is built on respect .. our laws we have to respect .. we have to respect people .. countries have to respect each other .. even we have to respect ourselves .. imagine what happen in a society with no respect between people .. !!

  • harry

    question to dennis :

    did you see in your life before a dannish flag or a christ burned on tv by muslims before what happened ?
    respect and you will be respected :)))

  • pilchard

    TROY – I don’t think you understood the point I was making. Yes of course there will always be argument over the meaning of various holy texts, but my point was that in many (not all) cases what was said was reasonable and sensible but people twist it to their own fanatical ends, often by forgetting the context on which that was said. You may not agree with that view depending on your sensibilities, but that approach may succeed in reaching people that the idea of rubbishing religious belief full stop may not.

  • pilchard

    Murtaza, I think you need some tuition in what an apology is-
    “but you can’t say they weren’t provoked.. But sorry…”

    doesn’t cut it I’m afraid. that is why we in the West will resist Islam as fiercely as Vlad Tepes did.

  • pilchard

    “every one has the right to tell his opinion about islam, or any other relegion, that will be fine but no one has the right to insult others religion” – on what basis do you assert this? and on what basis do you say that these cartoons were not a valid comment about Islam – because you and other Muslims say so? the world can’t be run as Muslims want it to be run.

  • pilchard

    harry, you have some extremely worrying attitudes. people like you are the oxygen that fanatics and terrorists need I’m afraid. the “respect” you speak of is in fact fear. people who are afraid respond by making their enemies afraid, thus a war between the West and Islam starts.

    Peace thru superior firepower I say!

  • pilchard

    Jowhara – news for you – some people don’t want to know about Islam and don’t give a shit what Islam wants its followers to do – they just want Muslims to stop telling THEM what to do. What passed as acceptable in the 14th century is no longer seen as civilised behaviour – so get a crash course in the 21st century!

  • harry

    to pilchard …

    dont be mad man … we muslims are not asking any body to do any thing .. do what your mind tells you .. every body act by his well .. but tell me who is the one that told me the western people are civilized ?!? so i can tell him dont lie any more :)) do you consider your self civilized ?? if this is the case i think you have to comply with the simple rules of life .. one of it is respect .. you have your freedom, your rights and your well .. but i dont think you live as free as an animal right ??? we are humans .. we respect each other .. thats what i know as a muslim .. i dont have to beleive in something to respect it … i respect buddha but i dont beleive in it .. i respect it because i respect budhists and their well and their right of worship .. and i respect it because i know if i insult it they will be hurt .. after all of that do i beleive in it !? naa … this is how we live .. i dont get my stereo very loud in the night because this will annoy my neighbors .. im free to do it and even annoy them but this will have no respect and i dont accept it .. islam order us to respect .. i would insult a person in an occasion .. but not a relegion by it self or a prophet .. as i told you not because i beleive in it but because of respect .. beleive me if you understand what i mean it would be easier to live :)))) no one is saying the world must be run by what muslims want .. everybody runs his country by himself .. and no one can apply his rules on any body .. including me : ))))

  • harry

    to pilchard :

    i think that you are more intelligent to say this :)))
    you dont really know 70% of muslims .. what you know is only 30% … then you dont know me im an open minded educated dentist living in a free country .. what you called me really made me sad .. but i respect you ;) it doesnt mean i fear you … i respect your openion really .. who said something about war ?? war is the worst thing that happened on earth … respect is not fear .. beleive me look in your life you will always find respect .. anyway i was pleased to hear your opinions and i was happy even more that you critisized my opinion .. this is what i call a good discussion … thanks everyone and may peace be upon you and the mercy of god :))) bye

  • Dennis Castle

    Harry ~ I think Arabic names rock, I had a Pakistani friend give me an Arabic name after a long conversation about religion once, he called me Arif and I treasure it to this day. I can’t believe your folks named you “Harry” if you are Kuwaiti. Please, let us know your Arabic name, they all sound so cool.

    Anyway, my point isn’t whether or not respect is an excellent marker for civil discourse. Any decent human being understands that. However when it comes to the “law”, the question becomes more specific. The concept of “respect” is too arbitrary and subjective to be codified. It could be used as a “slippery slope” to manipulate conversation or shut-down discussion altogether.

    An artist a few years back submerged an iron sculpture of Christ on the Cross into a jar of his own urine. Not only was he allowed to do that, he received taxpayer dollars for this “art” and his entire display was funded by taxpayers. Of course Christians were extremely insulted by this, but we understand that protecting the expression of people like that protects the rights of all of us. Now, the idea that it was paid for by the taxpayer is absolutely idiotic and that is where we protested. Shortly thereafter we in America began a cultural shift and began electing people with less “progressive” views to the point where we may see our abortion laws affected. If that happens we will probably see a shift the other way and see those with more “progressive” views be elected to office. That is the nature of democracy. But all of these principles are underscored by a basic set of rights which apply to everyone regardless of politics, religion, race, sex or whatever. The very first one, the paramount right, is the freedom of speech which your side is insisting must be abridged.

    Allow me to say that if a newspaper run by Muslims invented the artwork which the artist labeled “Piss Christ” it would certainly generate hard feelings. I would feel dismayed and probably angry. I would want to come up with a clever response, but it certainly wouldn’t be something so obvious or primitive as violence. Boycotting the Danes or Europe or everyone that isn’t Muslim or every country that believes in freedom of thought, speech and the press or burning flags or tossing out ambassadors is a legitimate response. Not terribly clever, but absolutely legitimate.

    Violence, however, is an act of war. I may be naive, but if those crowds marching and burning and tearing down embassy’s would have simply marched with signs reading “Respect our Religion” or even “Why insult our Prophet?” I sincerely believe it would have generated many things, like sincere apologies or at least honest and humble explanations.

    Now the conversation has degenerated beyond recognition (which is why I keep trying to clarify what we are talking about). From what I am learning, to a sincere Muslim, drawing a picture of Muhammad is worthy of violence and to a child of the West, abridging our right to freedom of expression is a fundamental revocation of a pillar of Western Civilization.

    Personally, I think the issue could actually be turned to a good thing if a well respected Muslim non-politician, non-cleric, penned a non-threatening document requesting we not draw Muhammad and then have it signed by the heads-of-state of all the Islamic countries and presented to the EU or some International group. Think of it as kind of a Grand Islamic Request. It is possible it could spark dialogue along all kind of lines. Perhaps we could return with a request of our own and provide an opportunity for our Muslim friends to be magnaminous. It may sound stupid, I’m just trying to think of way out of this.

  • pilchard

    harry I attack your statements where I disagree with them but not you. I just think in some places you don’t realise how your words potentially give succour to the fanatics.

    how can you say I know only 30% of Muslims? have they neatly triaged themselves before meeting me? I know what you mean, unfortunately we are focussed on the belligerent and attention-seeking minority at the present time

    Muslims are not telling us what to do? Hmm not sure how you consider it remotely likely in the current climate that is true for all Muslims- or are these guys setting fire to Danish embassies really misunderstood and instead of trying to create Smoked Danish Bacon they were inviting the Danes to a barbecue as a sign of fiendship?

    Please Harry – civilised is as civilised does. Wild-eyed maniacs are what I associate with Attila the Hun and Genghis Khan. Islam was civilised at one time – shame it all went tits up after that. But of course people are people and no-one has a monopoly on good or evil. hopefully our belief systems whether religious or philisophical mould us towards being better human beings

    You’re right of course – most Muslims don’t want this violence. The current inaction by the police in the UK is bad for everyone. I apologise if I have misinterpreted what you have said

  • Harry, and others… your comments are almost unreadable. PLEASE, please, please use paragraph spacing as people are much more likely to read what you have been good enough to write if it is a bit easier on the eyes!!!

  • Okay, first of all, i would like to say that people shouldnt talk about something they dont kno sh*t about. I’ve seen the cartoons, but I also know the background of the prophet Mohammed (Peace be Upon him). If people are ignorant, thats no one’s fault. It isnt our responsiblity to teach them about Islam or anything else, but they shouldnt go around writing and talkin about this as if they know anything.

    Many people here say this but what makes you think that people who see things differently do not know what they are talking about? I have read a translation of the Koran (several years ago) and I have known many Muslims. The fact I reject your religion (all religion in fact) is not because I do not know anything about it! Quite the opposite in fact.

    Do not confuse a refusal to agree with ignorance.

  • we muslims are not asking any body to do any thing

    The Muslims (who are not all Muslims, I realise) who have called for the state to ‘punish’ Jyllands-Posten are indeed asking someone to do something and that something is to use the force of law to stop them doing something that upsets them.

  • pilchard

    Dennis – I totally agree with your solution as an example of how much better this could have been handled. win-win

  • Austin

    Are there any web-sites dedicated to cartoons making fun of Muhamad. If there is not one, then I think there really should be one.

    This would be a great way for us westerners to show solidarity with the Danes.

  • pilchard

    I don’t think any of the ISPs would have the cojones to be honest

  • To each his own but personally I would rather make the intellectual argument of why Jyllands-Posten must be supported and explaining why free speech really is the freedom to insult people’s sensibilities.

  • KH

    Hi everybody near London ……
    ATTENTION:
    Rally, Saturday the 11th February, 12 Noon@Trafalgar Square, London England. http://www40.brinkster.com/freebritain/
    Let’s show our support for free speech and our outrage towards the cowardly behaviour of the BBC and UK Government. Show up. Print out flyers, post the link all over the internet, call in to radio and TV, tell everyone you know. We need to show up in large numbers if we want to be heard.
    SPREAD THE WORD – Please keep reposting

  • pilchard

    Wish I could go – hope there will be good numbers

  • christopher

    I would like to clarify the statement Perry

    “No Christian can justify fighting in any form, not even in self defense”.

    Does the death penalty work? Statistics have proven no. Does the death penalty deter people from commiting murder? The United States has one of the highest murder rates, so maybe we can conclude that the death penalty is not an effective deterrent?

    However; if someone attacked me I would defend myself!! Would I be acting according to the teachings of Jesus as I understand them then? No, I dont think so, but I would never-the-less still defend myself. The early christians were slaughtered without resistance, they are considered Martyrs. Not everyone is called on to be a Martyr….but it is interesting to note that christianity still grew from being a small sect into a state religion in around 250 years! And this was achieved without resistance to violence. The message remained stronger than the assailants of it.
    It seems to me that the message of peace has something compelling in it. I DO believe that every human being has the right to defend his life…..but then, what is life? For the great masters, there is no death because they do not identify with their bodies, they only identify with their Spirit. Not everyone is on the level of understanding required to understand this and no-one will fault anyone defending his “life” according to his own spiritual development. As I mentioned before, not everyone is called on to be a Martyr!
    All messages can be read and understood on different levels…that is why some people believe the world is only 6000 years old because it is stated in the Bible; some however would read the 6000 as symbolic for something else, it is all a question of spiritual growth and understanding. The “Sufis” interpret the Koran in a mystical way just as many mystical christians have certain “Keys” for understanding the symbolic of the Bible texts. Most spiritual writings are not meant to be taken on a face value interpretation but have many “veiled” truths contained within, but as I mentioned, the interpretation will depend on the spiritual development of the reader.
    In this world we believe that when one gives someone some money one will have less for oneself but on the spiritual level “giving is receiving”. There is no loss, there is only gain. For some this concept is not interesting and most certainly ridiculous, but for some it is a way of life and understanding.
    The concept of “free will” is in some respects very tied to the concept of “freedom of the press”. I adhere to these principles. Can the concept of “free will” and “freedom of the press” be abused? Yes, undeniably so! To willfully murder someone could be thought of as an exercise of “free will”. But is it correct and ethically right? The answer to this is dependent on the individuals state of consciousness and development.
    “Freedom of speech” is a cherished attainment of Western Civilization. But the saying tells us “one mans food is another mans poison”. This is very true today in what we are seeing being played out all over the Globe these last few days.
    All actions contain a reaction within….the question we all have to ask ourselves is “what constitutes appropriate action or reaction?”
    I believe that the West feels its hard earned values are being threatened and undermined….the West feels it is under attack. It sees pictures of hostages, bombings, desecration of sensitive symbols and wanton destruction of property and life at home and abroad. There is a sense of pervading fear of being invaded by muslim immigration. It feels the “enemy” is now amongst them. The west feels a victim of its own tolerance. But how to react?
    The Islamic world on the other hand feels its sacred values being threatened and also undermined…it feels it is under attack. It sees pictures of foriegn troops, bombings, desecration of sacred symbols and wanton destruction of property and life, for some, at home and abroad. There is a pervading fear of being invaded by foriegn soldiers. It feels the “enemy” is now amongst them. The Islamic world feels a victim of its own impotence. But how to react?
    For many on both sides of the line it is a “war” or “clash of civilizations” for others, it is just a misunderstanding they hope will soon fade away. Others are still not paying any attention to it….everyone is reacting according to his own level of understanding.
    Which civilization will destruct, which will be left standing? Or, will any be left standing?
    Is violence the answer? Are mass deportations possible or even desirable? What about total separation of the cultures? Is it even possible today to be separate, despite the wishes of many?
    I believe that in these times humanity is on the verge of making a great step forward but it will all depend on which voice we all listen to in our own hearts. Is it going to be the voice of revenge and destruction or the voice of love, understanding and acceptance?
    I believe revenge and destruction will occur and after in its stead, love and understanding will finally find its refuge.
    Just as the seed needs the darkness of the earth to develop and grow into a tree, so too do human beings need evil and destruction to take them onto the next level of understanding.
    Brace yourselfs brothers and sisters, its going to be a very bumpy ride in the coming years. BUT have confidence, something better will eventually take its place, it always has and always will..bless you all.

  • Dennis Castle

    Christopher ~ The Bible states that the world is 6,000 years old? I read the Old Testament in Hebrew and the New Testament in Greek but somehow I missed that part.

  • doener kebab

    Hi folks

    it was again hilarous to read the muslim scrap of the whole day.
    As long as the protesters ar burning Austrian, Swiss or chiean flags i really doubt if the IQ’s of muslims is higher than their body temperature.
    As long as somebody justifies killing in front of a video camera I would even dare to say IQ is goint towards Kelvin.

    The big fear is that there are to many of those low brainers around and – let us talk once not about religion.

    What went through the international press is a real shame for any muslim. Not only that they attack any embassy (eg Austrian in Iran) they also show an iextraordinary inefficieny and only killed only one of their comrades in Lebanon!!!

    Imagin it would need millions of embassies before the West gets freed of that scrap

    Anyhow let us get back to the point. The whole debate strongly urges for a nice Muhammar cartoon site. Ideas are plenty such as

    Muhammad f***s a goat
    Muhammad gets f****ed by a Mullah or even better Khomeini
    Muhammad drunk
    Muhammad eating roasted pig
    etc
    etc

    The reactions of the so called peaceful and tolerant believers cries out for more……..

    And besides I am just back from a hard days work and so I am really curious on any reaction but……. not to long tonite because the justifications of all believers contribution make me yawning……

    So far from the kebab front

  • pilchard

    well said Christopher. I think there is going to be a clash of cultures where we need to struggle so that right does succeed. complacency and neutrality will not be an option. we must show that we value Western values and freedoms and stick up for them.

  • christopher

    was not able to list the link, just type in google, the age of the world according to the Bible…..you will find it easily

  • Dennis Castle

    Christopher ~ I was hoping you would give me a chapter and verse, because the Bible doesn’t give an age for the earth at all. Actually, before we bore anyone over this (too late, I know) just know the Bible does list geneologies but Hebrew lists in antiquity were used for memorization and not meant to be interpreted literally as father/son, instead it can be read “ancestor”. This means that the Bible doesn’t imply any age at all for the earth. Anyway, back to the topic at hand …

    Over half a dozen have died over this controvery: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,183917,00.html and one Muslim writer points his finger at the Saudi’s for stirring this issue up: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/2/5/13149/60748

  • harry

    to denis …

    i was leaving this site forever but really guys i enjoy a good reasonable non biased conversation with you all …

    first about my name .. as i told i was in UK and my freinds used to call me harry .. why ? i dont know maybe my name is hard for them ?!? ..

    second : you said ( That is the nature of democracy) .. i want to tell you something about democracy in most of arabic muslim countries .. they lack democracy completely .. if someone mention the president name they take him to prison so democracy is smething not to talk about in countries like syria, lebanon, iraq, palestine, jordan, and all north africa … i thank god that the gulf region including kuwait has got a very good democratic system that give full freedom, except some issues in saudi arabia.

    so its unusful to talk about democracy !! although islam grants it for everybody the systems are not. this is a pitty.

    you said ((The very first one, the paramount right, is the freedom of speech which your side is insisting must be abridged)) this is not right .. you have your freedom and express yourself in any way but we wish that you dont insult prophet mohammed.. is it to much ?? does it take part of your freedom ?? what i mean is that we dont draw prophets … you want to draw ?? draw in a good way i wont protest .. but make fun of prophet mohammed and drawing him as a terrorist is not accepted !! draw him good nobody will be angry …

    you said ((Allow me to say that if a newspaper run by Muslims invented the artwork which the artist labeled “Piss Christ” it would certainly generate hard feelings)) i would tell you if this happens we will have hard feelings and protest before you as jesus is a prophet in islam and even not we dont accept insult to other relegions or prophets .. we are all brothers in humanity ..

    you said ((I would want to come up with a clever response)) do you know when these cartoons were published ?? 4 months ago .. muslim authorities at the first days went to the dannish gov. and protest officially but they had no response ! then they gathered the muslim leaders support and worked on it peacfully but also there was no response .. they worked officially for 4 months but got nothing thats why people got frustrated and started all of this.

    you said((would have simply marched with signs reading “Respect our Religion” or even “Why insult our Prophet?” I sincerely believe it would have generated many things, like sincere apologies or at least honest and humble explanations.)) this happened in so many countries including kuwait but also no response. in kuwait we had no violence also in the whole gulf region. there was no burning of flags. but not buying the dannish products ?? its people wish not governments and this also is freedom right ??? im free to buy or not to buy anything.

    you said ((crowds marching )) isnt this included in the freedom of expression you are calling for ?? ;))

    you said (( burning and tearing down embassy’s )) we also dont accept these acts of violence … dont think we accept it or we are happy .. no we are not. what happened in syria and lebanon is a big politic things to influence some acts … it was part of the syrian-lebanese conflict !!

    you said ((drawing a picture of Muhammad is worthy of violence and to a child of the West, abridging our right to freedom of expression is a fundamental revocation of a pillar of Western Civilization.)) do you mean buy drawing is good drawing or insulting buy funny silly terrorist cartoons ?? got me ??

    you said ((Personally, I think the issue could actually be turned to a good thing if a well respected Muslim non-politician, non-cleric, penned a non-threatening document requesting we not draw Muhammad and then have it signed by the heads-of-state of all the Islamic countries and presented to the EU or some International group)) this almost happened throught the first 4 months but then with no reaction people got mad.

    you said ((Think of it as kind of a Grand Islamic Request)) i think at this time there would be a grand islamic representation as muslim or arabic muslim countries will not cooperate togother .. they are always separated except the gulf region where we have a GCC union … so this phrase feels funny !! muslims are not all true muslims … this is the situation what can we do .. as you can see crazy you people who think they are muslims become terrorist and they act by the name of islam which is a shame !!

    you said ((Perhaps we could return with a request of our own and provide an opportunity for our Muslim friends to be magnaminous. It may sound stupid, I’m just trying to think of way out of this.)) i say your damn right but who will listen people are taken by their feelings sure not all of them ..

    beleive me denis .. if you know muslims more and the good of them you will know the real islam .. especially in USA your media is hell !! do you that im proud of what is happening in islamic world ?? or arabic world ? i feel shame .. as i told you im a dentist, kuwaiti, and 24 years old .. and im proud i live in a free muslim country like kuwait … guys almost all of what you are saying is right .. but anyway insult is not accepted, draw good pics ?? its ok .. insult ?? not a good idea :))

    to pilchard …

    you are right .. but firing embassies happened in only syria and lebanon not by people .. it was a big undercovered action related to the syrian-lebanese conflict .. we deny these actions…

    to perry…

    you are hell right .. not all muslims are true muslims .. this is a fact unfortunately !!

  • Dennis Castle

    Why does Perry get to be “hell right”? I want to be “hell right” too!

  • christopher

    Sorry Dennis.
    I should have substituted “suggest” rather than “states”, it was an oversight. The Creationists in the United States have used the calculations to determine that the Earth is only 6,500 years old. The Kabalists on the other hand interpret the ages of the Biblical figures in helping to understand the meaning for the Tora. For example the letter Taf has the numerical value of 400. The 4 or 40 on the level of the tens or 400 on the level of the hundreds implies almost eternity….Moses leading the Jews out of Egypt to the promised land took 40 years…..(please excuse me I have not read it in a very long time) The 40 implies that we are still the chilidren of Israel lost in the desert……..we still have not found the promised land. This is not really my field of study or interest, I have read on it and I believe understood it. If you are interested I would suggest reading Friedrich Weinreb. He is a brilliant scholar…..just look him up, I am sure you will find his works fascinating…Its wonderful that you can read the Old Testament in Hebrew….I hope that this suggestion will give you much scholarly pleasure. The Taf as you know is the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet, the 400 is the largest number there is…..its a huge subject, have fun.

  • Dennis Castle

    Christopher ~ the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet is taw and I’ve never heard about the “400″ being the largest number. Sounds hard to believe since the fifth chapter of Genesis lists numbers well over twice that high. Anyway, we have a couple posters on this thread that think the whole Bible is pretty silly to start with so I didn’t want to leave that glaring statement about the 6,000 years alone.

  • christopher

    I read Friedrich Weinreb in German “Der Göttliche Bauplan der Welt” It was originally written in Dutch. The Alphabet list in the pull out of this book lists the pronunciation as Taf…..remember its a german translation. What I am mentioning is the Kabbalah….of course if one has not studied it one would not be familiar with it…..as I said its a new world maybe for you. Enjoy!!

  • doener kebab

    I am talking about religious violence and tried to come-up with an aptly descriptive analogy.

    So, here goes:

    What makes superstitions religions so popular?

    You don’t have to know much…just a few key words and phrases.
    You don’t have to have any skills. Or even be literate. Being a spectator is enough.
    You show-up to a few events and you are automatically ‘part of the team’.
    You are permitted to shout, scream and engage in otherwise socially unacceptable behaviour.
    If someone doesn’t share your team or even your enthusiasm, then you can punch-’em-out or beat them to death.
    So what am I describing?

    “Religious violence” or soccer hooligans

    The only difference, really, is the excuse.

  • Steve

    ‘Sticks and Stones.’ A wonderful allusion perfectectly demonstrating the maturity level of a whole culture.

    Absolutist comment? Yup. But guess what — What many of you are calling isolated protests and sects and not the majority opinion are erupting in multiple countries all over the world. Hundreds of thousands. Millions? (I can’t find a source estimating the numbers here, just riviting pictures and video of widespread chaos). It has turned deadly. Every day, more Muslims are joining this bandwagon. Seems to me, y’all were itching for a fight or an excuse to have one. A bunch of cartoons is not a reason for these ridiculous actions, it’s just the most recent excuse.

    Peaceful protest or dissent doesn’t seem to be even an option in the Muslim world. Everything has to invoke flag burnings, stonings, fire bombings. Now embassy bombings and murder.

    Someone tell me this statement is false! Please?

    Support free speech! And sanity. And civility. And culture…. BUY DANISH!!!!!

  • Steve

    BTW, y’all can’t seem to can it about ‘respect.’ Well you sure as hell ARE NOT doing a very good job of earning it as a society as a whole right now!

  • Looks like we are just about done here… phew, what a marathon comment thread.

  • lllltbonellll

    An enlightened approach to the “Muslim” problem would be to really look at it as a “fundamentalist” problem rather than a muslim problem. Fundamentalists have hijacked the three Abrahamic faiths. Christian fundamentalism is beginning to become epidemic in the US, with clinic bombings, attempts to “chirstianize” the judical system etc.. grass roots organizations are sprouting up that would suppress anyone who would dissent with their agenda. Jewish fundamentalism is readily apparrent in the most recent removal of settlements in the west Bank.

    Any hope of truly finding a fair peace for the 21 century will only occcur as the virulence of fundamentalism is kept out of a government for the people, by the people and of the people.

  • No Name Please

    If nobody in the muslim world was allowed to publish the so called ‘offensive’ cartoons, how the hell does the millions of protesters in the muslim world know what they are protesting about? merely on hearsay evidence?

  • fahed

    Well it’s good to have this culture dialog here instead of burning each others flags and remind the world of the 19th century drama. But we are highly and extremely religious people so we live by our faith we eat by our faith and we even look and see by our faith so our religion is our life and no one can deny. I will support you’re right of freedom of speech but I’m not going to support you’re call to humiliate what we believe is the greatest man of humankind. you have you’re religion and you have you’re culture we also have out own religion and our own culture. You’re civilized in you’re way and we also civilized in out own way out faith is our civilization. We don’t care if we are like the U.S government said ( the third world countries- Europe is the second- and they own the final game to be the first world country) we don’t care of we have little or more money and we also don’t care if you’re governments discriminate my people in you’re countries as long as we are following our faith. Besides I read the bible and the three holy books and I found something interesting non of us following the his real religion all of us is living by some traditions and some morals and ethics was firstly created by the society. Namly: little of wine to make you’re heart happy everybody is getting drunk. If they slapped you’re right cheek give them the left of and more and more from the Christian rich culture and history. So what we need is not hurting people who we promised peace
    ( the diplomats and the embassies) and what we need is respect for our faith and religion that we lived by from 1423 years. And we also need the respect to my people who’s living in you’re countries that you promised the freedom of expression and freedom of practicing their faith freely. And I guess European press shouldn’t have published the cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) again to gravitate the situation and make it worst. But the is something you’re right about we shouldn’t unify the newspaper with the government. And you’re newspapers should promise not to publish any cartoons or disrespectful articles to our faith.
    You can make fun of us or the way we live it’s okay we will laugh at us with you but not our prophet muhammed ( peace be upon him) let’s leave faith alone and make fun of each other and believe me this situation should be dealt with carefully and more responsibly to not to enrich and larger the gab that is already between us.
    Peace be upon you and hope this situation to be over soon let’s forget the past and go forward because any cultural clashes is not going to help any one but the extremists and radicals. And I hope the bad type of my people to not to take this for their own good.

    Fahed mohhamed altaher
    Jordan-amman

  • Az

    I’m getting quite bored of all this going in circles so heres my ultra-simplistic summary of what this issue is all about.

    Its simply a debate about the boundaries of free speech –

    whether the boundary is the ‘harm’ principle (i.e we can say what we like as long as we don’t cause or incite violence).

    Or.. whether the boundary is the ‘Offense’ principle (i.e the boundary is when we cause offence which depends on motives, intensity, duration, nature etc..).

    The latter boundary is quite low but varies in different cultures, societies and countries (even within the West) but both viewpoints have clear philosophical foundations and clear merits and demerits which have been exhausted in the discussions above.

  • Az

    Apologies – I meant exhausted certainly as far as I care..

  • Az… yes I think this has been thrashed out pretty completely!

    I am curious what any Muslim commenters might make of this however. Does that thesis make sence or not?

  • Murtaza

    post is being refused, am mailing to Perry

    Since we are coming to a close. I pray taht we all get along better in the future and hoe taht my help understanding the Quran and Islam can shed light on what it truly is. feel free to post on here more questions about reasons/contexts to certain verses, or email me at m_khaku@hotmail.com

    thanks to all for a lively discussion.

    waslaam

  • fahed

    I don’t know why is this hate and racism, you have to express you’re belief here aren’t you a believer and what is going on here is the freedom of speech not to Depict a holy figure like the way the Danish newspaper did and also not like the way the American newspaper depicted Jesus Christ with erect penis. You’re making fun of your own holy figure here so why the religion let’s stay away from that red taboo line. And to az I don’t appreciate you’re racist comments you should be more open according to you’re values, ethics, morals,……. What so ever you believe in.

  • unjoyusinventions

    all hail mohammed the pediphile!lol europe better start dealing with their own problems the u.s. isn’t going to help, we’ve got our own problems, illegal aliens. muslims can’t riot here they’re too scared, black, whites, hispanics, asians are all waiting for the opportunity to lynch them………hahahahahahahaha! live in fear of the great american nukes! we’ll wipe you off the face of the planet, and mutate ourselves in the process, small price to pay…………..DON’T YOU LOVE FREEDOM OF SPEECH? I’M SOO GLAD I’M NOT CHINESE, POOR BASTARDS!!

  • jimmy

    urgent!

    immediate, we must destroy all the cartoons as they are unfriendly to the Muslims. Why cannot these people take a joke?

  • jimmy

    urgent!

    immediate, we must destroy all the cartoons as they are unfriendly to the Muslims. Why cannot these people take a joke?

  • Troy

    Prichard ~

    I suppose you are right. I think this may be a futile argument for me. This blog is for people who believe in Religion, but are trying to define it, impossible. Everyone here keeps talking about how each needs to be educated on others Religions, or Freedoms. As Dostoevsky pointed out, “it’s not so much that they want you to believe the truth, as to believe the same as them.” I need to be arguing the fact people need to be educated on ALL religions and why they are ALL ridiculous, evil, and counterproductive to human kind, as a whole.

    You stated: “Yes of course there will always be argument over the meaning of various holy texts, but my point was that in many (not all) cases what was said was reasonable and sensible but people twist it to their own fanatical ends, often by forgetting the context on which that was said.”

    You’re right. There will always be argument over the meaning of various holy texts. That’s because these texts are either indefinably ambiguous, or when you find clear statements, there is another that states the exact opposite! This is what makes these books so damn useless. I disagree, I believe often what is quoted in religious text (by fanatics) is exactly what the book says. I’m much more familiar with the Bible than I am the Koran, so here are some examples from that text.

    Asking your neighbors to help you stone a disobedient son to death
    Deut. 21:18-21

    Bears devouring 42 children (For teasing a prophet! Maybe this should be the fate the cartoonist?)
    II Kings 2:23-24

    Beating slaves to death in stages
    Ex. 21:20-21

    Forbidding women to learn, adorn themselves, speak in church, teach or visit friends
    I Cor. 14:34-35
    I Tim. 2:11-12
    I Tim. 5:13
    I Tim. 2:9

    Slaying old and young, maids and little children and women, but sparing the men
    Ezekiel 9:6

    Stoning women for being rape victims
    Deut. 22:21

    Stoning and burning women for not being virgins
    Deut. 22:21
    Lev. 21:9

    Stoning your brothers, son, daughter, and wife for worshipping differently from yourself
    Deut. 13:6-10

    I could go on, and on, and on……. (I could email you a more complete list, if you like. I don’t know if it’s everything, but it’s a lot! )

    ”…often by forgetting the context on which that was said.”

    All too often I hear people say, “You took that out of context”. Well, look these verses up. They are no better IN context. BUT WHO CARES, CAN YOU GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE IN WHAT CONTEXT THESE ACTS WOULD BE GOOD?

    I take it “out of its context”, because I don’t want to quote the whole damn bible. A priest will do the same thing to get his point across. I took your statement out of its context, but did I change its meaning? No. Nor did I change the meaning when the biblical God states to “You may stone your disobedient son to death”, because that is what it says.

    People will defend their Religion, no matter what, without any good reasons for it. Its crazy! The followers as well as the authority figures of their religion could be blowing up innocent people, or practicing compulsive pedophilia then lying about it and the “faithful” will STILL not question their religion!

    “There is something in life that soars high above religion…more excellent than dogma. Real love, kindness, and intelligence know no barriers.”
    -Dan Barker (Losing Faith in Faith; from preacher to atheist)

  • Troy

    Christopher,

    I also, have never seen anything that says the earth is only 6000 yrs old.

    Dennis,

    Another famous and truly faulty argument: Phrases in the bible should not be taken literally. Then please don’t, in the same breath, tell people what it does mean. If it’s not literal, then it is ambiguous. What phrasesstories do you, and do you not, take literally? Who gets to decide?

    If one story is a figurative story (like Noah), how do we know the next isn’t (the story of Moses). With all of you’re studying, please go through the bible and tell everyone what is fact and what if figurative, so they all may live their lives properly, according to Gods requirements.

  • johnson

    achmad!!

    so, the islamics are didlers! why are they angry at the Danish! It could be they are angry because they could not kill Van Gogh with impunity? I see they do not demonstrate against Al Quadia– hah, nor do they seem to mind the anti-jewish cartoons? They do not demonstrate against the U.S. though they invaded Iraq and Iran is next! Ha ha ha ha

  • Troy

    Murtaza~

    My Question:

    “As an atheist, do I get the same respect as you and your Christian brothers?”

    Your answer:

    “heres a cool answer. In Islam, to kill ANY innocent person, ie no regard to religion, to Allah is like killing all of mankind. so yup..”

    That’s paculiar. The following are verses from the Kur’an:

    “Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate”
    Sovereignity (66) #9

    “When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. Then grant them their freedom or take a ransom from them, until War has laid down her burdens.”
    Muhammad (47) #4

    “Muhammad is God’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another.” Victory 48:29

    Islam respects other religions? Not according to these verses:

    “You will find that the most implacable of men in their enmity to the faithful are the Jews and the pagans…” The Table (2) #81

    “The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures.” The Proof (Al-Bayyinah – 98) #5

    Anyway….you’ve got my point. ALL RELIGIONS ARE EVIL. Most people just haven’t taken the time to objectivly read their holy texts.

  • mahoobah

    they who have conqured with an army have won but half the war. all trade now will stop with the modern world and Iranians will go back to their caves…
    long overdue the coming religious war…against the Jihadists…they will fight our nukes with sticks and stones– mostly stones….

    – jesus

  • Troy

    mahoobah,

    Are you telling me that Jesus refered to Nukes? Who are you kidding? Please, tell me where I can find this quote.

    Look, I can find some real quotes from Jesus that make him look like an animal.

    “Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ….”
    Ephesians 6:5

    “And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating.”
    Jesus-Luke 12:47

    “If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.”
    Jesus-John 15:6

    ALL religion is evil.

  • muslimah

    my english is not that good but i’ll try to make it clear to you guys what im trying to say,
    i read most of the comments from top and from the mid and some from the end.
    oki first , message for the ”gey” who wrote the following message to Jowhara.

    ”Jowhara – news for you – some people don’t want to know about Islam and don’t give a shit what Islam wants its followers to do – they just want Muslims to stop telling THEM what to do.”

    hey mr bbc news y r u so scared to know the truth? does some people includes u? first we r not telling you to do any thing, secondly we want YOU to stop telling us whats right and whats wrong plus what to do!
    Andd why r u so afriad to discuess a religon in detail???
    well, from where i see it, there could be only one condition for u to be afraid of.

    u r scared to know our religion coz u know ITS A TRUE RELIGION and urs is not! u dont want to be its follower(no one is forcing u any way) so ur crying oh plz plz plz don’t tell me about it i dont want to be insulted from people who r less power full then me but still kick my ass.
    2nd. i read one of the comment above i dont know which ”gey” wrote it, but it said west is power full in every thing such as technology, arms and blah blah blah,
    oki let me see how power full is the west… o yeah its so power full it has settlights in the space and still couldn’t find a weak less power full Ousama Bin Ladin.

    and yeah ! so power full that have the high tech arms to fight with but still got kicked at the ass from the people who didn’t have enough guns to fight, and soooooooo power full that it got beaten up by a small group of muslims in afganistan, iraq who don’t even have proper training and ”other” countries to help in fight.
    oh my God!! its so power full that in iraq they beg other countries to help them fight with a poor un trained small group of people but still got beaten by them so badly that they have orders to return
    just like in the past, (i forgot the country’s name but the movie based on it is called Black Hawk Down) The west attacked it dreaming to rule but so sad the strong west had to beg pakistan remamber The POOR MUSLIM Country to Help The RIch WESt to get out from the Poorest Muslim country.
    ooooooooo so much for the Rich West.!!!
    And Proudy west read the history first! y r u so afriad to talk about it? too ashamed to know how every time u were deafeated by a very small group ????????
    today is ur’s but tomorrow will b ours. just like in the past u r proud of being rich and ten times more power full but remember it will always b like that u will b power full and have ten times more army then our but U will be the one defeated!!!! its hard for u to accept but hey u have examples! Afganistan, how power full are they? they have nothing but God and Courage, and usa has all the media in its hand and all those power full countries but we all know who is getting its ass kicked off u can’t even find where is Ousama.. too power full haha
    and Iraq hahahahahhahahahahhah do i have to tell how bad r u being beaten up by less power full ones????
    and hey if there is a freedom of speech why r u so afraid of muslims bombingss?????? they are just raising their voice that WE are not cowards LIKE YOU!!!
    if u want to draw OUR MOST BEloved Prophit (Peace Be Upon him) then y it is a pain in ur ass when we raise our voice????? its FREEDOM to chose any method u want!!! behading or bombing its freedom isn’t it?
    u want it ur way and we want it our way, yea so deal with it!
    and if u think u r so power full then y r u hiding under ur bead COME OUT just Dare to attack us with ur POWER AND ALL U HAVE y r u so afraid if u think we r so poor and cowards?????????????????
    WE dare u to do ur best to attack us with all ur power and we will show u what r we by kicking ur asses!
    u dont want to fight with us coz u know u will be defeated so stop barking like a hungry mad dog coz once we stand up u will all be begging for ur lives.
    and donkey kebab i’ve read some of ur comments i have to say u really have a big pain in ur ass haahaa thats ur comments are corney and rubbish get ur momy to help you .
    and in the last, az,nadia or baqi jin ka maine naam nahi lia lakin phir b muslims hai un se meri guzarish hai in kuto ke peeche haat kia neha dhoo ker peeche pero,inko inki nani kia nani ke sare boyfriends b yad kerwa do!

    by muslimah

  • muslimah

    and UR religion might be evil our’s is not!

  • muslimah

    and UR religion might be evil our’s is not!

  • Troy

    muslimah,

    How old are you?

    Was that your idea of an mature, and intelligent rebuttal?

  • muslimah

    troy
    is that all u can say?? duhh!!
    i guess i left u with no answers.^-^

    and hey i forgot one more thing. one of the gey said westerns think muslims are ridiculous.
    duhh! do we look like we give a damn to what you westerns think of us????? WE are proud to be muslims.
    we dont give a damn to what u think or how u want us to be! what r u? nothing but sex machine all u westerns think of is sex u ‘geys’ dont even no who iis ur mother since one night u(and ur parents) spend with one and the next with the other , this what WE think about u!
    u dont even fogive ur sisters u geys are digusting!! and if u have a chance u will even f*** ur mother! and this is the defination of ur freedom. f*** every one . and the educated and civilized weterns we know u very well hoe educated u are we can see it from the pix and videos which came from iraqi prison

    but our religion is the most blessed religion in the unvierse. read the history !!! u are so cheap u sent ur sisters and daughters in the name of bible and jesus to get and f*** those hero’s like SULTAN SALAH-U- DEEN AUOBI, who kick ur asses so hard that u still feel the pain of it. and the technology u talk about ! history is witness that the basic u got it from us! and now u think u r bloody geniuos.
    we ruled u first but now its ur time.. and like i said today is urs but Tomorrow will be ours. You WILL SEE THAT.
    .
    and stop dreaming of kicking us out of any where. we will go any where we want try to stop us! This is our World. ALLah almighty made it for us ”Muslims” not for u shuckers. but if u really want to kick us out then y not give it a try???

    yes and Grow up!!! not only physically but mentally ASWELL!!!

  • Christopher

    troy:

    Look, I can find some real quotes from Jesus that make him look like an animal.

    “Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ….”
    Ephesians 6:5

    This is NOT a quote from Jesus.
    I appreciate your scholarly endeavours, this was just probably an oversight on your part. Keep studying!!

  • I appreciate your scholarly endeavours, this was just probably an oversight on your part. Keep studying!!

    LOL!!! smiley_laugh.gif

  • IMPORTANT – Because the anti-spambot is eating some people’s comments, it is better to post several smaller comments that one huuuuuuge comment one. It also makes it easier to figure out what the offending word is that the crazed spam-bot killer does not like if your comment is shorter…

    …it also makes things eazier to read to have it in smaller chunks!

  • Troy

    Chistopher,

    You’re right. Oversight on my part. Late at night.

    What about the others. I could supply you with more, if you like. If you look at some of my previous replies, I have no shortage of quotes from the bible.

    muslimah,

    I could refute you very well. Read some of my other statements. I don’t feel someone with the work “duhh!!” in their reply requires much of an answer.

  • Adam

    Yes, the editors of European newspapers who published the “offending” cartoons know what they’re doing… they’re doing a rather tame version of what state-run media in many Arab countries do on a weekly basis; namely run cartoons showing Jews and Christians in an unflattering light.

    The protesting Muslims are holy hypocrites. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. You to your religion and me to mine (sera 109), right?

  • chrstopher

    Troy:
    your quotes from the Koran are falsely listed

    “Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate”
    Sovereignity (66) #9

    This is not from Sovereignty 66 but from Banning 66:9

    When quoting from sources its usual and common practice to show that one is leaving out sections. Your quote from Victory 48:29 should reflect this with (…) after your quote.

    Also Translations of the Koran differ…one should also say what translation one is quoting from i.e The Translation I have from M. M. Pickthall translates Victory 48:29 as

    “Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves. (…)

    I don’t know what website you are using for your information Troy, but in fairness to all and in respect for academic tradition lets stick to the standard practices. That means cross referencing sources before printing.

    Keep up the well intentioned study!

  • Adam

    BTW, just ignore muslimah.

    He claims his english isn’t very good but his diatribe is filled with savy text message abbreviations.

    I don’t think he’s muslim; I bet he’s just a trolling teenager.

  • adam

    Many Islamic Middle Eastern newspapers have frequently published cartoons with anti-Semitic themes, or those created or inspired by Nazi-style propaganda. Some examples:

    On June 6, 2002, Akhbar al-Khalij from Bahrain published a cartoon showing a Jew piercing a baby with a spear.

    On July 24, 2002 Al Watan from Qatar published a cartoon of Sharon drinking from a cup of Palestinian children’s blood.

    On December 17, 2001, Keyhan published a cartoon showing a Jew in front of a Holocaust scenery, killing Arabs.

    Almost all Israeli prime ministers in the last 15 years (Shamir, Peres, Rabin, Barak, Sharon) have been depicted as Nazis. Jews are regularly depicted as spiders, octopuses, scorpions, snakes, thieves or other menacing-looking persons with exaggerated “Jewish” characteristics.

    Jewish religious symbols, notably the Star of David are displayed in derogatory fashion, such as being composed of a menacing snake.

    On May 17, 2001 the Palestinian Al Quds published a cartoon depicting Sharon eating Palestinian children.

    None of those depictions caused the Muslim world any problems. But make fun of Muhammad? Suddenly, there’s a problem.

    Muslims: Before you point your finger at the mote in the Western eye, remove the beam that’s in yours.

  • Troy

    chrstopher,

    Thank you for the clarification. Sorry about my “miss-referenced” the quote. Again, it was late at night and my notes are messy, sometimes. But as you displayed, it does exists.

    You are right “…” means exactly what you said. Normally I will put that in there because the “other” information isn’t important, or admittedly, it doesn’t fit my point.

    I did this with my Dan Barker Quote:

    “There is something in life that soars high above religion…more excellent than dogma. Real love, kindness, and intelligence know no barriers.”
    -Dan Barker (Losing Faith in Faith; from preacher to atheist)

    I left out the part where it mentions “more important that Jesus’, because I think Jesus is irrelevant to what he is saying. Also, leaving out the Jesus part doesn’t change the meaning of this quote whatsoever. So always search for yourself.

    Again, the same argument I made with the Bible: There are so many different translations, its impossible to say what is correct. What is the accurate word of God? If you can clear this up for me (especially with the bible) it would be greatly appreciated.

  • christopher

    Troy you ask “what is the accurate word of God?”

    Although I believe that this is not the appropriate forum to discuss that in I will however, try to answer you.

    It is my personal belief that GOD is LOVE. Anything that is said or written that sows the seeds of division, strife and hate and claims to be the Word of God misrepresents the accurate Word of God.

    Purity of heart and mind is the only way to reach God.

    The ego has always tried to usurp the voice of God. We all know the statement “the devil made me do it” This simplistically put explains that we have thoughts in our mind that can be “taken as directives”.

    A terrorist bomber for example could have probably heard such a directive in his mind that it is ok to go and sacrifice himself and kill others in the process and because he believes himself to be a Believer, think that “God has spoken to him”.

    He could also record his thoughts on paper or today (on video) as his testimony. His testament to the world that he is following the “Word of God”.

    In the New Testament for example, Ephesians, Romans etc are all testaments of Paul. He is writing what he believes to be the inspired words of God.

    The question I believe that We have to ask ourselves when reading or listening, watching and thinking is: Does what we read, see, hear and think and do, spread the message of love, peace, happiness, understanding and acceptance contribute to the general well being of all?

    If the answer is a resounding YES and one is left with a deep feeling of inner-peace and serenity, then one can be sure that one has experienced “The accurate Word of God”.

  • muslimah

    Dear Insulted Weterns

    for ur information. muslimah means ”MUSLIM” lady , mr adam i dont need ur stamp to prove im muslim or not and im not a trolling teenager.
    Adam

    tell me the truth u want to ignore me is that because i smash every thing right in to ur westren face?????lolz too bad for u, and its very good that u were able to understand my english. and uh yea u know what? don’t even think i’m in need of ur attention i just gave few coomments and answers. (huh isn’t there a freedom of speech???) which were very painfull to u westerns hehehe, don’t worry i don’t give a shit to ur attention, ur girl friend needs it more then i do so plz ignore me that would b very kind of u.but i’ll b a pain in ur ass answering westerns comments on muslims and their stupid questions.##

    tortoy y dont u give me ur best answers???

    oh yea one last Thing to me MR lovely Adam who thinks im dieing for his attention.

    listen up Western boy , the people u r talking about are not prophts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    they are all normal people like u and me, WE wont bother to give u damn if u draw cartoons about our presidents any one of them! even Ousama bin ladin , Musharif etc no one will even bother to check who drew it !
    sharon is not a prophit!Shamir, Peres, Rabin, Barak niether one of them is a prophit!
    Prophit Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) is our most beloved prophit, it is a religious matter, he is not a president of a country! he is a very special personality to us! muslims!

    tell me any muslim news paper which made fun of JESUS OR OF ANY RELIGION.

    u guys r just lookin for stupid excuses thats all, its all aways hard to admit for u’ geys ‘ that u didn’t do the right thing.

    keep up with ur defination of freedom##

    and just to give a little peace of infor since its FREEDOM OF SPEECH, dare to read it

    The science of astronomy states that the speed of planet Mars has

    >>been decreasing in its course toward the eastern direction in the

    >>few past weeks to the level we notice the “waver” between the east

    >>and the west..and on Wednesday the 30th of July the planet movement

    >>stopped going toward the eastern
    direction..

    >>
    >>Then in the months of August and September…Mars changed its

    >>course in the opposite direction to the West- and that until the

    >>end of September..which means the sun will rise now from the west

    >>on Mars!!
    >>
    >>And this weird phenomena of the opposite movement called

    >>”Retrograde Motion” Most scientist state that all the planets will

    >>go through the same once at least and our planet Earth is one
    >>of them. Planet Earth willmove in the opposite direction some day
    >>and the sun will rise from the west!!

    >>This might occur soon and we are unaware!

    >>The rise
    of the sun from the west is mentioned in the hadith and
    >>this is the major sign of the day of judgment, most if not All, the
    >>minor signs have occurred. Wake up.
    >>
    >>Our beloved messenger Mohammed (Peace Be Upon Him) said: “One of
    >>the signs of the hour..the sun will rise from the west, where no
    >>longer tauba (forgiveness) will be granted” !!
    >>
    >>And the strange thing..most of our Shariah scholars mentioned that
    >>the rise of the sun from the west occurs only once..on that
    >>day..the sun will rise from the west..then again from the east..and
    >>continues until Allah wishes..and this is similar to what is
    >>happening to Mars..it stops, then it changes its course of
    >>direction for a short period of time..then returns to way once it

    >>was.
    ##############################

  • pilchard

    harry, I’m not just thinking of Syria and Lebanon. There have been disgraceful protests in the UK and Indonesia also and a murder in Turkey, so it is simply NOT true to say that it is related to Syria and Lebanon solely.

    Some of your co-religionists are still making threats and really amply illustrating the point that Islam is the religion of submission NOT peace I’m afraid. Too many Muslims despise the West and lack basic respect for other human beings. I have been called ka’affir by someone working in the local takeaway, for no reason at all – I had never met the guy before. There have been conferences in Birmingham where I live talking about ka’affirs which I find extremely offensive – yet I didn’t resort to making placards and dressing up as a suicide bomber as a UK drug dealer did (who has been flung back in jail thank goodness!)

  • pilchard

    Doener kebab and Muslimah are on the same wavelength – one I don’t care to tune into

  • pilchard

    Muslimah, you have shown the poor state of your education. You have totally misunderstood retrograde motion and show total ignorance of astronomy. At least we in the West understand these things. You have shown the ignorant side of Islam rather well.

  • per

    muslimah,
    when one refers to science, instead of religion, there are often exact answers.
    I suggest you look up “retrograde motion”.
    Neither the rotation around Mars axis or its trajectory around the sun has changed. Due to different orbital speeds, Mars seen from the earth against fixed stars moves west or east depending on which planet is ahead.
    There is NO sunrise direction reversal taking place.

  • Mark

    All this over a bunch of camel jockeys? I have just one word to say to all of them “baaa-aaaa-aaa.” Yeah, get back to your flocks!

  • pilchard

    Muslimah you should ask your Mum to let you go out at night. Has she grounded you again? Never mind when you grow up and leave home you can stay out past 6 pm! If you promise to behave we won’t rat on you to your mum.

  • muslimah

    hello?? do u think im just sitting here lookin at the mars and telling its direction!
    dear educated Western this statment about the movment of mars is stated by WESTERN astronomers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! its NASA
    this peace of artical is not popular yet but soon it will be and u will see it ur self when the sun will rise from the west!
    its stated in QURAN as well.
    and if u think i have no idea what im talking about then y dont u e-mail the nasa the WESTERNSSSSSSS ”’ the educated ones”””’ and ask them ur self!!!!

  • pilchard

    Muslimah, I think we’re going to have to tell your mum you’re playing up. Teenagers should not be on the internet so much.

  • RicoDeLarge

    The part of this that really amuses me and seems to have been missed by most is this; Pictures and drawings of the big MO have been forbidden since day one of the founding of Islam. Therefore, who can possibly say that these depictions are accurate? They are apparently accurate enough for all these knee-jerk knuckleheaded Ayatollahs. Otherwise, they could simply say they do not depict the Holy Hoo-Ha and be done with it. Instead, they have confirmed that these are truly pictures of their prophet and are pissed off that he has been exposed for what he is! I had my doubts initially, but millions of Koran toting rioters can’t be wrong–It’s really the prophet with a bomb in his raghead. I believe!!

  • pilchard

    Muslimah MUST be a fraud as no-one could really be so thick as that could they? God would not be so cruel…

  • pilchard

    Consanguineous marriages are up to 2 out of 3 in some Muslim cultures – I think we’re seeing the effects on IQ here with Muslimah. Fragile X syndrome or something?

  • pilchard

    I think the thing we’re seeing is that Westernised Muslims have absorbed Western values and we can mistakenly think they represent Islam. Sadly I think this is not the case, and the various ranting hatefilled posts laced with ridiculous nonsense like the idea of Mars or any other planet suddenly changing direction demonstrate a large number of followers of Islam are not educated or tolerant and this is why we’ve seen this reaction to what are, at the end of the day, only cartoons.

  • Rick Kirby

    Only one of the 47 Muslim majority countries is free. Muslims are clearly the least tolerant toward group on earth in regard to other religions. So their righteous indignation toward these cartoons is as laughable as it is hypocritical.

    The world is becoming increasingly sick and tired of Muslim anger and violence, and when the majority starts getting angry, very bad things start happening. I hope right-thinking Muslims start working harder to repair what is so obviously broken in the Muslim world. Otherwise, a holy war beyond anyone’s imagining may become a reality in the near future.

    Do any Muslims want to take a stab at answering the questions below?

    FIVE QUESTIONS NON-MUSLIMS WOULD LIKE ANSWERED
    By Dennis Prager

    (Dennis Prager’s nationally syndicated radio show is heard daily in Los Angeles on KRLA-AM (870). He may be contacted through his website: http://www.dennisprager.com)

    “The rioting in France by primarily Muslim youths and the hotel bombings in Jordan are the latest events to prompt sincere questions that law-abiding Muslims need to answer for Islam’s sake, as well as for the sake of worried non-Muslims.

    Here are five of them:

    (1) Why are you so quiet?

    Since the first Israelis were targeted for death by Muslim terrorists blowing themselves up in the name of your religion and Palestinian nationalism, I have been praying to see Muslim demonstrations against these atrocities. Last week’s protests in Jordan against the bombings, while welcome, were a rarity. What I have seen more often is mainstream Muslim spokesmen implicitly defending this terror on the grounds that Israel occupies Palestinian lands. We see torture and murder in the name of Allah, but we see no anti-torture and anti-murder demonstrations in the name of Allah.

    There are a billion Muslims in the world. How is it possible that essentially none have demonstrated against evils perpetrated by Muslims in the name of Islam? This is true even of the millions of Muslims living in free Western societies. What are non-Muslims of goodwill supposed to conclude? When the Israeli government did not stop a Lebanese massacre of Palestinians in the Sabra and Chatilla refugee camps in Lebanon in 1982, great crowds of Israeli Jews gathered to protest their country’s moral failing. Why has there been no comparable public demonstration by Palestinians or other Muslims to morally condemn Palestinian or other Muslim-committed terror?

    (2) Why are none of the Palestinian terrorists Christian?

    If Israeli occupation is the reason for Muslim terror in Israel, why do no Christian Palestinians engage in terror? They are just as nationalistic and just as occupied as Muslim Palestinians.

    (3) Why is only one of the 47 Muslim-majority countries a free country?

    According to Freedom House, a Washington-based group that promotes democracy, of the world’s 47 Muslim countries, only Mali is free. Sixty percent are not free, and 38 are partly free. Muslim-majority states account for a majority of the world’s “not free” states. And of the 10 “worst of the worst,” seven are Islamic states. Why is this?

    (4) Why are so many atrocities committed and threatened by Muslims in the name of Islam?

    Young girls in Indonesia were recently beheaded by Muslim murderers. Last year, Muslims — in the name of Islam — murdered hundreds of schoolchildren in Russia. While reciting Muslim prayers, Islamic terrorists take foreigners working to make Iraq free and slaughter them. Muslim daughters are murdered by their own families in the thousands in “honor killings.” And the Muslim government in Iran has publicly called for the extermination of Israel.

    (5) Why do countries governed by religious Muslims persecute other religions?

    No church or synagogue is allowed in Saudi Arabia. The Taliban destroyed some of the greatest sculptures of the ancient world because they were Buddhist. Sudan’s Islamic regime has murdered great numbers of Christians.
    Instead of confronting these problems, too many of you deny them. Muslims call my radio show to tell me that even speaking of Muslim or Islamic terrorists is wrong. After all, they argue, Timothy McVeigh is never labeled a “Christian terrorist.” As if McVeigh committed his terror as a churchgoing Christian and in the name of Christ, and as if there were Christian-based terror groups around the world.

    As a member of the media for nearly 25 years, I have a long record of reaching out to Muslims. Muslim leaders have invited me to speak at major mosques. In addition, I have studied Arabic and Islam, have visited most Arab and many other Muslim countries and conducted interfaith dialogues with Muslims in the United Arab Emirates as well as in the U.S. Politically, I have supported creation of a Palestinian state and supported (mistakenly, I now believe) the Oslo accords.

    Hundreds of millions of non-Muslims want honest answers to these questions, even if the only answer you offer is, “Yes, we have real problems in Islam.” Such an acknowledgment is infinitely better — for you and for the world — than dismissing us as anti-Muslim.

    We await your response.”

  • KH

    Watch some latest news about the addited cartoons on:
    http://www.neandernews.com/?p=54

  • pilchard

    I anticipate that instead of getting many considered answers, you will get some incoherent rants about the West in general and how we’re all going to be take over by Islam or similar rubbish. Islam in its strongest forms flourishes among the poor and the poorly educated.

  • Tezbo

    I have to say as a British Citizen who is of partial arabic decent and have islam within the family that I am sickened by the behaviour of muslims around the world in the past few days. The cartoons are clearly offensive and wrong under Islamic laws and rules. But what the muslim world needs to remember is that commiting foul terrorist attrocities accross the globe is also wrong and offensive under other laws and rules. The difference between non-muslims and muslims is that while a few cartoons where published in Europe and has provoked worldwide revolts and rioting and disgusting mob mentality, there was nothing on that scale when over 3000 people were slaughtered in New York, over 300 in Madrid and the 52 people who were robbed from our country by filthy warped scum. The appropriate word is tolerance, while I truely believe that the British people are becoming increasingly disconcerted with the wave of islamic behaviour I have to say that we do not react in such a savage and raw way because we have tolerance of other cultures and religions. It interests me that any criticism of islam is met with furvor and anger when other religions can quite often brush off any ‘humour’ aimed at it. For example, The Simpsons has many times portrayed god without crowds of Middle America or the people of the Cotswolds storming the networks that show them. The Hindu gods are also frequently portrayed without reaction. Equally in ‘Family Guy’ god was shown to be in bed with a hooker asking not to use a condom with her, after just refusing to let jesus come and live with him. That is in my opinion more of an insult to Christianity than the pictures of Mohammed where, yet there is no reaction to this. WHY WHY WHY

    Wouldn’t it be a better world if we all just got along how about some new universal commandments that everyone goes you know what i’m sure god/allah/shiva/buddha etc would think these would be a good idea…..

    1. Men and Women are equal.
    2. Every person has the right to believe in their own faith without predudice or restriction.
    3. No person has the right to impose their belief or faith on others.
    4. No person has the right to harm others in the name of belief or faith.
    5. Lighten up

    Cause this does leave some holes in our new morally just society but well what are you gonna do, the faiths had years to make their stuff up.

    Maybe i’ll just keep commandment 5. try it once in a while!!!!

  • blabbermouth

    Achmad speaks:

    I am the Ayatollah kablatashia. I mus not take none er da awful poop frum you da stupid western zealot luvers and animalized christian catroon labelizers!!! Here in Turkey we have jus released Valley of the Wolves:Iraq. It is a movie…depicts jewish doctors cutting out the organs of dead Iraq people killed in the present warr there– and selling them to rich people in New York. Tuurky where Jihadd commenced after Galipoli!!! it alos depicts a wedding where the bride and gromme are killed by U.S. soldiers on a rampage. — part of a new genere of movies that depict the west as demons.

    Ahchung!!! Heil !!! Yakkity yak– this is how we get are reveng for yer true but nasty cartoons….!!!!

  • doener kebab

    Hello back again from a hard days work. Whe reading the first new comments I almost was about to sleep, but muslimah stirred it up again. Great woman!!! I must confess never read such a scrap in such ashort time. So no answer anymore on the subject just a little joke – and remember one of my first entries:
    “Behind a joke thre lies some truth. So how about this:

    Achmed blew himself up in a Israeli supermarket, and is allowed to go to Heaven. When he gets to the gates of heaven, he asks St. Petrus:
    “I want to see Mohammed the Prophet”
    Petrus replies:
    “I don’t know him. Go up one floor and ask Jesus, he probably knows”
    So, Achmed goes up one floor and gets to Jesus. He asks him:
    “Where is Mohammed?! I want my prophet!”
    Jesus doesn’t know Mohammed either, but he advises Mohammed to see his father (Jesus’ father) because he’s omniscient and yadda.
    So, Achmed goes up another floor to see God. In the meanwhile, he has become quite frustrated because no one knows his favorite prophet, Mohammed.
    When he gets to God he has gone completely mental;
    “MOHAMMED NOW, I WANT MY MOHAMMED!”
    God tells him to sit down.
    “Would you like something to drink?” God asked.
    “Coca-cola” Achmed replied.
    “I’ll take that too” God said.
    He then snaps his fingers twice and shouts:

    “Mohammed, two coca-cola please.”

    Whish you all e pleasant night with or without Mohammed.

    Doener kebab, the one who likes pork meat doener.

  • doener kebab

    Maybe it is late so before I leave some desert for all your nice comments, which I’d love to read by tomorrow evening. Pls dear muslima and all other believers do not disappoint me until tomorrow night.

    Here is this:

    Islam #1: If shit happens, it is the will of Allah.

    Islam #2: If shit happens, kill the person responsible.

    Islam #3: If shit happens, blame Israel.

    Islam #4: If shit happens, take a hostage

    What do you call a Mullah with a piece of ham on his head?
    Hammed
    · What do you call a Mullah with 2 pieces of ham on his head?
    MOHAMMED (Poor Bald & Ugly Homo – this I only know because I ve seen the drawings J)
    · What do you call a Mullah with 2 pieces of ham and a vibrator on his head?
    Sheikh Mohammed

    And Westerner football addicted must know:
    It’s hard to find quality field-goal kickers for the Islamic Football League, because league rules allow for kickers who miss from inside 30 yards to have their feet amputated.

    And Muslimah: Pls write gently without saliva on the keyboard.

    Nite to all

  • Paul

    One of the oldest precepts of martial arts is the answer to the following question:

    Which is more important the philosophy or the teacher?

    The answer (at least the one accepted on most Black Belt Essays): the teacher.

    The reason is extrordinarily simple. No matter how pure or idealic a philosophy is, the only veiw the student will ever receive is from his teacher; a teacher who is human and imperfect.

    No one can deny that within each of the worlds major religons exist thousands of sects and divisions, many of which are based on various interpretations made by any number of a thousand religious scholars through which the dogma is strained.

    Based on comments I’ve seen above, particularly those that relate to the nature of Islam, it seems that there is a great deal of discrepency as to whether or not it is at heart a “violent” religon.

    I suppose my question would be this: are these radical and violent groups the result of flawed dogma or the mechanations of charismatic leaders who bend the will of their people using these texts?

    Islam would certainly not be the first religon to be used in such a way.

  • Az

    Rick – I’ve already answered most of your main points in my earlier discussion with Dennis (see earlier). but for the purpose of settling your intellectual curiosity which is what i’m sure your questions are as opposed to laced with the usual vitriolic anti-musilm agenda (I always give peole the benfit of the doubt) here you are:

    1. Why are you so quiet?

    I don’t see too many protests about Israeli state sponsored killings either in the west – Most muslims see the Palestinian situation as one where the aggressor is clearly the Israeli side and Palestinian ‘terrorism’ is a justified response. The justification for suicide bombings in Israel is one that as Israel is a millitarised state ALL its citizens are complicit and equal targets. I would beg to disagree on this point along with many other muslims but you wanted to know why.

    As for other muslim terrorist atrocities – theres plenty of muslims including myself who have protested.. guess its not something FOX is interested in showing to you guys.

    2. Why are none of the Palestinian terrorists Christian?

    The Palestinian struggle WAS a secular one with Christian leaders amongst others in the 1960′s, 70′s and 80′s. George Habash is one of the more famous Christian Palestinians. In Fatah (which no doubt you class as a terrorist organisation), Hanan Ashrawi is also Christian. (But remember Christians only form 6% of the Palestinian population), the struggle got a religous dimension only in the twenty years which economically makes sense as the major funders changed from the old Soviet union to the muslim world and particularly Iran.

    3. Why is only one of the 47 Muslim-majority countries a free country?

    I don’t like your wording but lets get away from the semantics and try and answer your question – which could be better phrased – Why are 47 Muslim-majority countries less free than many other countries for example.

    As I answered before to Dennis – the present situation of much of the muslim world is due to a combination of the colonial legacy and weak indigenous institutions. The west has hardly helped the process along (Iran in 1953, Algeria in 1991 to give but two examples wher direct or tacit foreign help has destroyed democratic muslim nations from emerging).

    4. Why are so many atrocities committed and threatened by Muslims in the name of Islam?

    It has happened before with Christianity, Sikhism, Hinduism and many other religions. Don’t equate the religion with some of its followers – it depends on intepretation (has been discussed in much length earlier), If the question is why are they all happening now – well Answer 3. should help you to understand the situation many Islamic societies are currently in.

    5. Why do countries governed by religious Muslims persecute other religions?

    I would dare to say (and I think the majority of Muslim opinion would agree with me) that there are no true islamic nations at the moment nor have there been for several hundred years. Saudi Arabia and the Talibanised Afghanistan are not representative.

    Okay now I’ve answered your questions maybe you can answer a few that the Muslim world is constantly puzzled about:

    1. Why is it that you can’t see Western unilateral intervention causes more problems than it solves? (using my own examples from above the CIA plot to topple Mossadegh led to the worst excesses of the Shah which in turn led to the Iranian Revolution. In addition the repression of FIS in Algeria led to them going underground, splintering into hardline groups as they fought state sponsored paramilitaries ruining a nation for the last decade and a half).

    2. Why does your government support repressive regimes in the Middle-East (aside from Israel!, Saudi Arabia and Egypt to name the largest ones).

    3. Why does Israel have carte blanche to do as it pleases (including the right to not recognise Palestines right to exist, the right to have chemical and nuclear weapons, the right to have ludicrously attractive female border guards – okay I made the last one up.. but have you seen them?) when no-one else can?

    In essence I’m not hypocritical I CAN see the failings of muslims, why can’t you guys see your failings? If you really cared about muslim opinion (and I’m not convinced you do) you would be balanced, fair and remove the injustices rather than increasing them – this in turn would prevent those in the muslim world who thrive on your hypocrisy and indifference.

    Oh and lastly and most pertinently..

    4. Why do Neo-cons shout so much, are you guys all deaf?

  • Why do Neo-cons shout so much

    Who you calling a neo-con? :-P

    I am a wild eyed libertarian, or something like that…

  • Murtaza

    In the name of Allah, the beneficient, the merciful.

    Since this conversation has gone back into reverse (when i said dont be shy, i meant add to a decent conversation, in a decent way, and dont start debating what decent means, please.

    Anyhow, all of us can learn from this. If you don’t want to, well you can read it anyway, and say oh, well…

    That’s paculiar. The following are verses from the Kur’an:

    “Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate”
    Sovereignity (66) #9

    My quote:
    “Oh Prophet, strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be severe with them. Their abode is heall, an evil destination!”

    At-Tahrim (The Prohibition) 66:9

    Commentry in a nutshell:
    The order is to strive hard against the disbelievers and the hypocrites with arms aswell as with words and arguements.
    Aqa Mahdi Puya says:
    Here and in Verse 73 of Surah(chapter) 9 (Al Bara-at – Immunity Also known as At-Tawba – Repentence) The Prophet is commanded to fight against the hypocrites as was being done against the dis-believers, but no war was waged against them in the lifetime of The Prophet, or during the time of the first three rulers, but this was carried out by Imam Ali, in fulfilment of the prophecy that he would fight and destroy the oath-breakers, deviaters and apostates.

    “When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. Then grant them their freedom or take a ransom from them, until War has laid down her burdens.”
    Muhammad (47) #4

    my quote:
    “So, when you encounter (in war) those who disbelieve smite their necks until , when you have routed them, then hold them in bondage; thereafter either free them as a favour or after taking a ransom, until the battle comes to an end. That (you shall do). If Allah had pleased he could certainly have exacted retribution from them, but He wishes to test some of you through some others. He will never allow the deeds of those who are slain in the cause of Allah go to waste.”
    Mohammed (47:4)

    commentry:
    This verse comands evert believer to kill be killed when fighting the disbelievers. if slain the rewards from Allah are many. If the believer prevails over the enemies of Allah , he destroys the powerbase of evil, disorder and corruption.
    Those who deserted the Holy Prophet in the battles of Uhud and Hunayn and ran away to save their lives must be identified and condemned in view of this verse.
    The ordianace to kill the disbelievers is applicable when they have launched an attack on the believers., not when they have surrendered. Islam prescribes effective defence in the event of unprovoked aggression (can support with quotes + commentry here if necessary).
    Aqa Mahdi Puya (By the way is someone who has researched and is learned in the field) says:
    When once the enemy is brought under control, the release of prisoners with or without ransom is recommended. The slaughter of captives was never allowed in Islam. [intresting.. all the video cameras etc.. see what i mean by not true Islam?] How a believer deals with a captive is a test. some take ransom, some let them go for the sake of Allah; and some take care of them, shelter them and feed them with no strings attached.

    “Muhammad is God’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another.” Victory 48:29

    my quote:
    “Mohammed is the messenger of Allah; and those with him are severe against infidels but compassionate amongst themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating, seeking His grace and pleasure. Thier mark is on their faces (foreheads) from the effect of prostrations. Their description in the Tawrat [(Torah)], and thier description in the Injil [(cant remeber this in english)], is like a seed that sends out a stalk, then strengthens it, and it becomes stout and rises firm on its stem, delighting the sowers, in order to fill the disbelievers with rage. Allah has promised those who believe and do good deeds forgiveness and great recompense.”
    Al Fat-h (The Victory) 48:29

    commentry:
    (by ME, not from my Qur’an) These are also related to verses 54 and 55 of Al-Maidha (Surah 5). They talk about one man, Ali Ibn Abu Talib (a.s.). The plural has been used to glorify and dignify him. They are in comparison to the first khalifs (leasders after the Prophet PBUH).
    Aqa Mahdi Puya says:
    The qualities, mentioned here and in verse 29 of Al Fat-h [this is from the above mentioned verses of Al-Ma-idah] (according to well known traditionists) were owned by no one but Ali. In all the battles faught by the Holy Prophet against the enemies of Allah the Shaykhayn (forst and second khalifs) never played a decisive role in any battle, nor won battle in single combat or general confrontations; in contrary they were always overpowered or ran away from the scene of the action. [This is mainly about the difference between Ali (a.s.) and the khalifs. This is because I believe that he was the rightful successor but his place was usurped by the 3 khalifs before him.. Point being that this is not refering to the world, only one great man.]

    Islam respects other religions? Not according to these verses:

    “You will find that the most implacable of men in their enmity to the faithful are the Jews and the pagans…” The Table (2) #81

    The Table?? what source is this from? Surah 2 is Al-Baqarah, which any arab or Muslim will tell you mean The Cow.
    anyhow, the quote:
    “Yes! Whoever earns evil, and his sins encompass him, they are the inmates of the fire, therein they shall abode.”
    Al-Baqarah (The Cow) 2:81

    perhaps you meant 81:2
    “When the stars are made to fade away”
    At-Tawakir (The Folding Up) 81:2

    nope. and note this isnt talking about sunrise, it talks about the day of Judgement.

    So, a made up quote. was it you who said you had read the Qur’an?
    PLEASE PLEASE send me a link to where you got that..

    “The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures.” The Proof (Al-Bayyinah – 98) #5

    my quote:
    “They were not commanded except that they should worhip Allah, be sincerely devoted to him in religion, and that they should establish prayer, and give the poor-rate [Compulsory charity], and that is truly the eternal religion.”
    Al-Bayyinah (The Clear Evidence) 98:5

    hmmm, same source? link/name please?

    commentry: The Jews and Christians were commanded through their scriptures to worship Allah [different name, same being..], sincerely devoted only to Him.

    This can also be interpreted such that it relates to Muslims…

    Any more?
    Please send me a link to where they are from please…

    Perry, what happened to my post?

    I hope I have opened your eyes to what is going on (fabrication of the Holy verses..)

    Wasalaam.
    Murtaza

  • Murtaza

    I take my initial comments back, i just saw a surge in stupidity and assumed. my fault
    apologies for insulting anyone

    Az, great post.

    wasalaam

  • Perry, what happened to my post?

    If you mean what you e-mailed me, I cannot get it past the over-zealous anti-spambots any more than you can. If that is not what you mean, are you saying a comment that was already up has disappeared???

  • Murtaza

    oh, i thought as editor you had some sort of power over evil creatures as spambots… hehe, nothing Islamic in that statement im not a radiacllist/fundementallist/extremeist/any other -ist the media may throw in to imply a terrorist is a muslim hehe

    subtle, no?

    hmmm. that was a loong post :(

  • Murtaza

    > Perry:
    > ________
    > But what is the people who think the earth is flat will riot and burn
    > embassies down if I publish that opionion in a Danish newspaper?
    > once again, THAT was NOT the correct way to show an opinion, Im sarting to
    > agree the earlier post to say that you are looking to repeat the same points
    > again… anywho, feel free…
    > _______
    > “Sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me”
    > Yeah, I know, im from “The West” and im Muslim. what a coincidence. do you
    > know if they say that in Arabia or “The east”..? lets not seperate
    > unnecessarily :) and as pretty much anyone will tell you, thats not true,
    > thats some psychology, but words CAN hurt, please tell me you dont think
    > that words can’t hurt people….
    > And quotes, yeah im using Mozilla, and i know there is taht html stuff…
    > cant bring myself to be bothered, just look for the double line space, after
    > that there is usually a quote…
    > I though this wasn’t about Insulting anyone, I thought Denmark wanted to
    > show that it could have free speech. O wait, sorry it then changed to
    > Denamrk wanted to show Muslims that they werent scared of them.. has it
    > changed back at someones arguement’s convenience??
    > hmm food for thought.. and tasty too..
    > ___
    > Can I…..
    > I remember in school, we would ask the teacher if we can go to the toilet.
    > we learnt the difference between “CAN I” and “May I”.. it is possible to
    > drive on the wrong side of the road, but will you do it when you get the
    > urge?? Yes, it is illegal, and yes it will be illogical. So why mock people?
    > ____
    > ah perry, we arent starting threat again now are we??
    >
    > “I am glad about all that tax money I have taken from me and spent on our
    > nifty high tech military because violence is something the west is very good
    > at when it decides it is time to ‘express’ itself violently. Are you sure
    > you want to reduce things to that level?”
    > Lets stay above passive aggressive pseudo-threats ;)
    > ___
    > The blame does not lie with the people doing the provoking, it lies with the
    > people doing to reacting.
    >
    > Ok, so you reacted to the Muslims in Denmark doing some sort of threatening
    > when people did some things (evidence there please) by insulting someone
    > totally different, and revered, respected and loved by one the largest
    > global groups.. why didnt you use self control? why not write a sensible
    > civil article? why not talk to the UN? why not show the world what is going
    > on, rather then spark a word and possibly a true/terrorist war? no self
    > control. tut tut Denmark
    > __
    >
    > CHRISTOPHER:
    > “Murtaza, I have no bad feelings towards you. I just empathise with your
    > situation… I am able to think for myself …”
    > sure there are no bad feelings. you just said i cant think for myslef. hehe,
    > thanks alot buddy :|
    >
    > “They (religions) have constantly been mis-used and will continue to be
    > misused by politics and individual gain”
    > What do religions have to gain from political power. the founder is long
    > dead, and if there is a God, he already has absolute and total power… I
    > would say more politicans use religion to get political and individual gain.
    > Bin Laden… hmm
    > And i don’t think Mohammed was a politician. EVERYONE believed in one
    > religion, why not proclaim that and rise quicker than start a new one, be
    > forced to leave his home-town, etc etc. not v clever…
    > ______
    > why should we then all have the same religion or any religion at all? Human
    > beings are only reflecting their Creator when they allow diversity……
    > hm, well, if the creator is not bound by anything human/physical/at all then
    > diversity does not reflect Him, infact the concept of something outside of
    > time and space is incomprehesible to the human mind.. so im not sure about
    > that, and the quote about being created in the reflection of The Father…
    > ____
    > Just try leaving and opening that door Murtaza, you wont be posting any more
    > messages in here if you try that!!
    >
    > HAHAHA i actually laughed. Dude, i can leave if I wanted to. My sect isnt
    > going to kill anyone for that. Infact i know people who used to be Muslim.
    > By the way, you may know Princess Diana came to my Mosque. Thing is its not
    > a “Mosque”, its more a centre. Subtle difference. This leads me to my next
    > point, Although you may not be permitted to enter a mosque, there is nothing
    > to stop you asking questions, visiting seminars and centres. Most of our
    > Mosques are actually small buildings next to the main centre where you CAN
    > infact go, but Mosque is not allowed, it has just struck me, because of
    > purity, We are very big on purity, especially with eating and facing Our
    > Creator, and other religions are not considered Paak, IE not pure, and the
    > area you pray from must be paak… I know it seems very
    > racist/descrimanatory, but there are reasons, again, not for here… So
    > doors are not closed, for entering or leaving. As far as the Holy cities go,
    > there are MANY MANY religious sites which are very big targets, security
    > there is very VERY VERRRYYY tight, even with just Muslims, so im guessing
    > they would shoot a non-Muslim for taking a pen out of his pocket onsite, so
    > I guess its that that is the reason… But Arabs can be very racist too…
    > ____
    > It is no different to watching someone drown and just shrugging and saying
    > “Inshallah” (or even “Deus Wult”). I do not find that admirable in the
    > slightest (not that you are under any obligation to care what I think, of
    > course).
    >
    > nicely put, but Insha’Allah means “God willing”. there would need to be more
    > for a hope/prayer tehre heheh, we get the point though
    > (Why in Arabic and German only, is tehre a slight bitterness to them and/or
    > us? hmmm, why not “Hopefully” too??? hmmm, your subconcious is kicking us
    > hehe)
    > _____
    > Jowharas comments are for those who post carp only, not for example perry,
    > christopher, and troy who seem to be having a decent discussion. If I left
    > you out im sorry…
    > _____
    > Dennis:
    > I am sorry it bugs you that we don’t spell it with a “Q”, but it’s a
    > transliteration of an Arabic word, which means it is spelled phonetically,
    > and there isn’t a perfect English letter that represents that Arabic sound
    > no problems.. but nope, Qaaf and kaaf are different one is from the throat
    > (Q) like you were clearing your throat, but not so much, more abrupt, and
    > the otehr (K) is how it is said. hehe I know its from Arabic, we knew that a
    > while ago (our Holy Book is in arabic), that is the correct one as far as
    > correctness goes, but feel free to use yours…
    >
    > OK, those verses reffer to certain months (we are in one now, Muharram,
    > there is a heart wrenching story behind this month, please please look it
    > up, it will be worth your while, if not you may kick me….(once only
    > please) ), but in these months fighting is PROHIBITED as it is disrespetful
    > to the sanctity of the month. for a long time the Meccans were disturbing
    > and agonising the Prophet PBUH and his people. (dont know exact deatils of
    > how, will get them if needed…). Many times treaties had been made with
    > them, and every single time the treaties would be broken immediately, before
    > the ink had dried. So the only solution was the sword, so it says that you
    > should slay them, but note it also says until they desist, so it wasnt a
    > kill them regardless deal…
    > As far as do not make friends with others. The ruling we live with today is:
    > Muslim friends are preffered (this strengthens brotherhood and allows us to
    > suppoort each other, makes sense), but friends of other friends are not
    > condemned as it would say in every anti-Islam website etc. I would like the
    > ref to that so i can look it up…
    > “had a Christian cross on it”.
    > not an intentional thing, its nothing to do with christians. Isnt it too
    > square, i mean isnt the Christian Cross longer at the bottom. forgive me if
    > that is my ignorance, but we are all learning..
    > where is the difference as far as incitement of violence law goes? and the
    > invoking terrorism law (i believe that one is in force now isn’t it?). sorry
    > im not a lawyaer, so not got a lawyer hat yet.. but i mean, usually its
    > quite humanly clear. I mean, who didnt see this coming?
    > ____
    > harry:
    > also most of them are sheea`a muslims and they got influenced by thier
    > leaders really
    >
    > ouch. thats sooo not true. We do have brains. ALL of our religious leaders
    > (Ayatullahs) have condmened Osama. I believe, at least the promonent ones
    > have… there will be exceptions, eg someone supporting part of what he
    > stands for (anti-US) but tahts not really the same… but harry, dont make
    > sweepings statements please, tahts for everyone too… sweepings statements
    > = ALMOST ALWAYS FALSE…
    > Note I have said alot of those points earlier… good post
    > _____
    > Pilchard. SOO TRUE
    > *BANGS HEAD ON WALL*
    > I SAID THAT!!!!!!!!! AAAHHH going mad as people dont seem to understand what
    > i say.. is it my e-accent??
    >
    > Murtaza, I think you need some tuition in what an apology is-
    > ahh the passive agressive again. hehe, i didnt threaten you nor anyone. I
    > didnt do any of taht, im trying to make you see the otehr side of the coin.
    > I am offering my apologies as a third party… not a terrorist… I AM NOT
    > ONE..
    >
    > on what basis do you assert this? and on what basis do you say that these
    > cartoons were not a valid comment about Islam – because you and other
    > Muslims say so? the world can’t be run as Muslims want it to be run.
    > keep up please, we covered this, its not RIGHTS. the word to be used instead
    > is RIGHT…
    > IE it is not right…
    > And as far as who decides that, Morality. Simply put, did Prohpet Muhammed
    > PBUH do anything? brought about Islam..? Did Islam do anything? give these
    > people a name to use..? Thats neither Islam’s nor the Prophet PBUH’s fault.
    > If you can get another reason Islam/The Propeht PBUH did anything, then
    > usually its bad references from convincingly written sites using “corrupted”
    > info. read previous posts about context…
    >
    > the world can’t be run as Muslims want it to be run.
    > When was it? When was it demanded? not doing somethihng wrong isnt a Muslim
    > thing, and if it is i think the world should be run by Muslims hehe. and
    > “its not wrong blah blah”, read the previous part of this post…
    > ________
    >
    > harry, you have some extremely worrying attitudes. people like you are the
    > oxygen that fanatics and terrorists…. Peace thru superior firepower I say!
    >
    > Oh the Irony. Does not need a reply. Read previous posts.
    > _____________________
    > they just want Muslims to stop telling THEM what to do. What passed as
    > acceptable in the 14th century is no longer seen as civilised behaviour – so
    > get a crash course in the 21st century!
    >
    > mmm, we didnt tell YOU to do ANYTHING… Sorry, we did, we said you should
    > not do something wrong, atleast not to us..
    > Read my posrt about lack of respect and its effects in the 21st century.
    > Theres your crash course…
    > ______
    >
    > harrym sorry i repeated you hehe.
    > dont get my stereo very loud in the night because this will annoy my
    > neighbors .. im free to do it and even annoy them but this will have no
    > respect and i dont accept it
    > not true, sorry in UK thats not allowed hehe, so laws do already exist taht
    > FORCE respect for others.. so its just an extra addition we ask..
    > _______
    >
    > beautiful second post Harry.
    > Jazakallah (The thanks of Allah – i think)
    > _______
    > Dennis
    > I would protest about that “art”, on the same grounds i argue this one.
    > difference is, and this is what makes it so amazingly sad, the fact Muslims
    > got SOO worked up about it is why its on so many front pages. But we cant
    > condone it (stay silent). catch 22…
    >
    > I would want to come up with a clever response, but it certainly wouldn’t be
    > something so obvious or primitive as violence
    > tahts what we are doing, trying to turn a few heads.. hehe, same boat, Arif.
    > Thing is, not evryone controls anger taht well, and between fanatics and
    > lunatics we have bomb threats. Alot of these people, and i apologise for my
    > last statement are simply mis-guided. what can we do. this thread is for
    > them too.. so all you who make/made Muslim threats. THAT IS NOT ISLAM
    > BOTHER/SISTER..
    >
    >Â The very first one, the paramount right, is the freedom of speech which
    > your side is insisting must be abridged.
    > abridge:
    > To reduce the length of (a written text); condense.
    > To cut short; curtail. See Synonyms at shorten.
    > mm, not exactly, we didnt want to, as i said earlier. we thought/trusted
    > that you had good judgement, and would use this right wisely, but since this
    > cannot be done, what other option is there?
    > PS meaning is there coz i can be a bit stupid as far as vocab goes..
    >
    >
    > abridging our right to freedom of expression is a fundamental revocation of
    > a pillar of Western Civilization.
    >
    > i retort: abridging respect for others is an even more fundemental
    > revocation of a pillar of HUMANITY.
    > although you want to be able to do everything ever possible, it is just not
    > possible, the rights need to be cut off somewhere… cant have unlimited
    > rights. Rights to insult move on to rights to abuse. verbally. then
    > physically. then what? I know you say that wont hapen, but a number of years
    > ago they would have said taht what is hapening today, disrespect of child to
    > parent, rape of teachers by pupils etc wouldnt ever happen…
    >
    >
    > an opportunity for our Muslim friends to be magnaminous
    >
    > mag�nan�i�mous   ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mg-nn-ms)
    > adj.
    > Courageously noble in mind and heart.
    > Generous in forgiving; eschewing resentment or revenge; unselfish.
    > hehehe. well first off there will need to be an apology. Looking back. You
    > agree on our points of respect. So this is disrespectful. UNJUSTIFIED
    > Disrespectful is wrong…? thus an apology is pending. (for replies to
    > unjustified read the previous posts. Prophet Muhammed PBUH not being the
    > cause etc…)
    > Nice idea… BUT that is negotiating with the Muslims who will negotiate,
    > what about the “Muslims” i.e. terorists…?
    > _____
    > Pilchard
    > unfortunately we are focussed on the belligerent and attention-seeking
    > minority at the present time
    > And is our Prophet PBUH i that minority? no? then why is he being drawn not
    > terrorists? as i have said, its not him its them draw them and ill have a go
    > too…
    >
    > Islam was civilised at one time – shame it all went tits up after that.
    > tut tut sweeping statements. bear in mind you are talking to Muslims who are
    > not holding a knife a gun and a video camera… ;) BTW feel free to come
    > over for a bbq, but itll be Halal meat.. hope thas not a problem. (PS more
    > passive aggressiveness… alot of hatred..?)
    >
    > You’re right of course – most Muslims don’t want this violence. The current
    > inaction by the police in the UK is bad for everyone. I apologise if I have
    > misinterpreted what you have said
    > hmm, the police are running under the same banner as was raised early in the
    > thread.
    >
    > IMPORTANT COMMENT, PLEASE RESPOND:
    > do we not agree taht that is an incorrect one? absolute freedom is clearly
    > being abused… By our “Muslim” protesters and by these images…?
    > _____
    > Perry, again, come on, please now
    > I have read a translation of the Koran (several years ago) and I have known
    > many Muslims
    >
    > CONTEXT. I have read the Quran, doesnt mean you understood what it said. you
    > took it in a way YOU thought was right. and with this same method terrorists
    > are working into minds of Muslims, and converting them. We need CONTEXT.
    > earlier in this post I talked about 1 such quote… do you want an ISBN num
    > of a good book for commentry (ON CONTEXT…)??
    > I am not posting it immediately so that you dont think im advertising lol
    >
    > Perry, Punish is a harsh word. we want an apology, is taht a punishment??
    > the law is not simply for something taht Muslims are experienceing against
    > Muslims alone. Others have experienced it too. the “art” earlier. Muslims
    > are simply more volatile and many are misguided at this moment in time.. so
    > the reaction was more volcanic than in the “art” example…
    > ____
    > Ausitn, read the thread. you wont learn if you dont read… and Pilchard,
    > you were so rational a minute ago, dont spoil it…
    > ____
    >
    > KH, you are in the same boat as Austin. I hope i ahvent offended either of
    > you, you arent illetrate are you?
    > (passiv aggressive, i know. Im sory guys)
    > but say all you want, you need to use your BRAINS..
    > heres a thought. Absolute freedom of speech. good or bad?
    > Dont throw me an answer, just turn it over a few times in your head, and
    > then look from a diferent perspective…
    > _____
    >
    > Chritopher:
    > It sees pictures of hostages, bombings, desecration of sensitive symbols and
    > wanton destruction of property and life at home and abroad.
    >
    > Nice touch…
    >
    > The Islamic world feels a victim of its own impotence.
    >
    > im�po�tent   ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mp-tnt)
    >Â adj.
    >Â Lacking physical strength or vigor; weak.
    > Lacking in power, as to act effectively; helpless: �Technology without
    > morality is barbarous; morality without technology is impotent� (Freeman J.
    > Dyson).
    >Â Obsolete. Lacking self-restraint.
    > which one?
    >
    > Like the last paragraph. Remind me of the middle ages.. shouldnt there have
    > been a period of love already?? Perhaps its history repeating itself, as
    > said by My Imam, Ali (a.s.)
    > cool post.
    > ______
    > doener:
    > sorry about the earlier cracks at your name…
    >
    > As long as the protesters ar burning Austrian, Swiss or chiean flags i
    > really doubt if the IQ’s of muslims is higher than their body temperature.
    > As long as somebody justifies killing in front of a video camera I would
    > even dare to say IQ is goint towards Kelvin.
    > 0 celcius = 273 kelvin. so trhey are smarter if they kill infront of
    > cameras? how so? hmmm irony hehe
    >
    > The big fear is that there are to many of those low brainers around and -
    > let us talk once not about religion.
    > and therfore achieve what?
    >
    > Imagin it would need millions of embassies before the West gets freed of
    > that scrap
    > get your bricks
    >
    > The reactions of the so called peaceful and tolerant believers cries out for
    > more……..
    > please, at least make sense…
    > _____
    > Dennis:
    >
    > dailykos… there have been many images of the Prophet PBUH before? am i
    > ignorant..?
    > as for fox news… well they are angry.. not everyone is willing to discuss,
    > and there isnt exactly a global platform currently in place for use, so the
    > world knows whats going on…
    > _____
    > Harry:
    > why ? i dont know maybe my name is hard for them ?!?
    > beautiful example by a lecturer, often “westeners” (cant think of any
    > speling, its 3.15am..) often say, o right, can i can you, for example,
    > Harry. Why? its difficult.. Ok, so may i call you Ahmed? why? yours is
    > difficult for me… should happen.. hehe. Multiculturalism at its best..
    >
    > MANY POINT I MAKE HERE ARE MADE REDUNDANT BY AN EXCELLENT POST BY HARRY.
    > SORRY…
    > ___
    > doener:
    > have you stumbled across a goldmine.
    > what is “religious violence”? no dircet reply please…
    > haw can it be misused.. for personal.political gain, say in countries which
    > are occupied by for eg. the US…?
    > think..
    > _____
    > Steve:
    > Seems to me, y’all were itching for a fight or an excuse to have one. A
    > bunch of cartoons is not a reason for these ridiculous actions, it’s just
    > the most recent excuse.
    > how far is it from a peaceful protest by angered people to what we see? not
    > far. perhaps if they werent angry. perhaps with a little responiveness from
    > Denmark..
    > suggestive insults:
    > Support free speech! And sanity. And civility. And culture….
    > reminds me of earlier me being told i cant think independantly (perhaps
    > accidentally… we shall wait and see.. ;) )
    >
    > BTW, y’all can’t seem to can it about ‘respect.’ Well you sure as hell ARE
    > NOT doing a very good job of earning it as a society as a whole right now!
    > THE TV does not count as RESEARCH into a people (not a race, since we are
    > not aparently..) remeber, they want to sell a story. the truth of a peaceful
    > Islam isnt gona sell…
    > _____
    > Perry nooo, respind this please.. i duno if oll be around though, losing a
    > whole lot of sleep..
    > _____
    >
    >Â lllltbonellll
    > like the post.. very true. but HOW can we look at that problem
    > (fundementalists – bit of a catchphrase now isnt it. is it strictly a true
    > one, it suggests they are still muslim, so nope..), America’s solution
    > (fight fire with fire) isnt working…
    > _______
    > No Name:
    > If nobody in the muslim world was allowed to publish the so called
    > ‘offensive’ cartoons, how the hell does the millions of protesters in the
    > muslim world know what they are protesting about?
    > what year are you from sorry. Think about it. INTERNET, news isnt gona bar
    > this…
    > _______
    > fahed:
    > Peace be upon you and hope this situation to be over soon let�s forget the
    > past and go forward because any cultural clashes is not going to help any
    > one but the extremists and radicals. And I hope the bad type of my people to
    > not to take this for their own good.
    > Ilahi-Ameen (Amen)
    > good sentiment.. some of the points resemble earlier ones, lets not go down
    > them again, we are here…
    > ____
    > Az, If harm is higher then Ofence, then to offend isnt to harm. (or if im
    > confused then harming isnt offending.) my point, are they not the same?
    > expand please, examples usually do the job..
    > ____
    > Perry your last link, interesting. not heard of them, i see the main offence
    > as the mockery of him for no real necessity. we have covered alternatives
    > which show freedom of speech and are not offensive on these levels…
    >
    >
    > Anywho, we are nearing a close I think.
    >
    > I just want to know thoughts on Respect boundries VS ABSOLUTE freedom…?
    >
    > btw look up Muarram / Ashura. Very sad heart-wrenching story. As a personal
    > favour. Please.
    > Wasalaam.
    > Murtaza
    > PS one more long post.. sorry
    > PPS sorry If i offended anyone. Please forgive me.
    >
    > Thought from Islam: Educational discussion is more rewarding (thawab) in the
    > eyes of Allah (s.w.t. – sorry, no translation, rusty memory) than prayer or
    > reciting Qur’an.
    > bye for now!! live, learn and love..
    > wassalaam (again)

  • Murtaza

    Sorry about the shabby state of taht post, came straight off an email to perry…

    hope you can read it.
    Thanks for trying Perry :)

  • I just took the anti-spambot out and shot it (well, ok, I just turned it off completely). I will turn it back on in a few days when the volume of discussion reduces a bit.

    I would STILL recommend posting smaller comments however as vast long ones are just hard to read.

  • Murtaza

    > Perry:
    > ________

    > But what is the people who think the earth is flat will riot and burn
    > embassies down if I publish that opionion in a Danish newspaper?

    >
    once again, THAT was NOT the correct way to show an opinion, Im sarting to
    > agree the earlier post to say that you are looking to repeat the same points
    > again… anywho, feel free…
    > _______

    > “Sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me”

    > Yeah, I know, im from “The West” and im Muslim. what a coincidence. do you
    > know if they say that in Arabia or “The east”..? lets not seperate
    > unnecessarily :) and as pretty much anyone will tell you, thats not true,
    > thats some psychology, but words CAN hurt, please tell me you dont think
    > that words can’t hurt people….

    > I though this wasn’t about Insulting anyone, I thought Denmark wanted to
    > show that it could have free speech. O wait, sorry it then changed to
    > Denamrk wanted to show Muslims that they werent scared of them.. has it
    > changed back at someones arguement’s convenience??
    > hmm food for thought.. and tasty too..
    > ___

    > Can I…..

    >
    I remember in school, we would ask the teacher if we can go to the toilet.
    > we learnt the difference between “CAN I” and “May I”.. it is possible to
    > drive on the wrong side of the road, but will you do it when you get the
    > urge?? Yes, it is illegal, and yes it will be illogical. So why mock people?
    > ____
    > ah perry, we arent starting threat again now are we??
    >

    > “I am glad about all that tax money I have taken from me and spent on our
    > nifty high tech military because violence is something the west is very good
    > at when it decides it is time to ‘express’ itself violently. Are you sure
    > you want to reduce things to that level?”

    >
    Lets stay above passive aggressive pseudo-threats ;)
    > ___

    > The blame does not lie with the people doing the provoking, it lies with the
    > people doing to reacting.

    >
    > Ok, so you reacted to the Muslims in Denmark doing some sort of threatening
    > when people did some things (evidence there please) by insulting someone
    > totally different, and revered, respected and loved by one the largest
    > global groups.. why didnt you use self control? why not write a sensible
    > civil article? why not talk to the UN? why not show the world what is going
    > on, rather then spark a word and possibly a true/terrorist war? no self
    > control. tut tut Denmark
    > __
    >
    > CHRISTOPHER:

    > “Murtaza, I have no bad feelings towards you. I just empathise with your
    > situation… I am able to think for myself …”

    >
    sure there are no bad feelings? you just said i cant think for myslef. hehe,
    > thanks alot buddy :|
    >

    > “They (religions) have constantly been mis-used and will continue to be
    > misused by politics and individual gain”

    >
    What do religions have to gain from political power. the founder is long
    > dead, and if there is a God, he already has absolute and total power… I
    > would say more politicans use religion to get political and individual gain.
    > Bin Laden… hmm
    > And i don’t think Mohammed was a politician. EVERYONE believed in one
    > religion, why not proclaim that and rise quicker than start a new one, be
    > forced to leave his home-town, etc etc. not v clever…
    > ______

    > why should we then all have the same religion or any religion at all? Human
    > beings are only reflecting their Creator when they allow diversity……

    > hm, well, if the creator is not bound by anything human/physical/at all then
    > diversity does not reflect Him, infact the concept of something outside of
    > time and space is incomprehesible to the human mind.. so im not sure about
    > that, and the quote about being created in the reflection of The Father…
    > ____

    > Just try leaving and opening that door Murtaza, you wont be posting any more
    > messages in here if you try that!!

    >
    > HAHAHA i actually laughed. Dude, i can leave if I wanted to. My sect isnt
    > going to kill anyone for that. Infact i know people who used to be Muslim.
    > By the way, you may know Princess Diana came to my Mosque. Thing is its not
    > a “Mosque”, its more a centre. Subtle difference. This leads me to my next
    > point, Although you may not be permitted to enter a mosque, there is nothing
    > to stop you asking questions, visiting seminars and centres. Most of our
    > Mosques are actually small buildings next to the main centre where you CAN
    > infact go, but Mosque is not allowed, it has just struck me, because of
    > purity, We are very big on purity, especially with eating and facing Our
    > Creator, and other religions are not considered Paak, IE not pure, and the
    > area you pray from must be paak… I know it seems very
    > racist/descrimanatory, but there are reasons, again, not for here… So
    > doors are not closed, for entering or leaving. As far as the Holy cities go,
    > there are MANY MANY religious sites which are very big targets, security
    > there is very VERY VERRRYYY tight, even with just Muslims, so im guessing
    > they would shoot a non-Muslim for taking a pen out of his pocket onsite, so
    > I guess its that that is the reason… But Arabs can be very racist too…
    > ____

    > It is no different to watching someone drown and just shrugging and saying
    > “Inshallah” (or even “Deus Wult”). I do not find that admirable in the
    > slightest (not that you are under any obligation to care what I think, of
    > course).

    >
    > nicely put, but Insha’Allah means “God willing”. there would need to be more
    > for a hope/prayer tehre heheh, we get the point though
    > (Why in Arabic and German only, is tehre a slight bitterness to them and/or
    > us? hmmm, why not “Hopefully” too??? hmmm, your subconcious is kicking us
    > hehe)
    > _____
    > Jowharas comments are for those who post carp only, not for example perry,
    > christopher, and troy who seem to be having a decent discussion. If I left
    > you out im sorry…
    > _____
    > Dennis:

    > I am sorry it bugs you that we don’t spell it with a “Q”, but it’s a
    > transliteration of an Arabic word, which means it is spelled phonetically,
    > and there isn’t a perfect English letter that represents that Arabic sound

    > no problems.. but nope, Qaaf and kaaf are different one is from the throat
    > (Q) like you were clearing your throat, but not so much, more abrupt, and
    > the otehr (K) is how it is said. hehe I know its from Arabic, we knew that a
    > while ago (our Holy Book is in arabic), that is the correct one as far as
    > correctness goes, but feel free to use yours…
    >
    > OK, those verses reffer to certain months (we are in one now, Muharram,
    > there is a heart wrenching story behind this month, please please look it
    > up, it will be worth your while, if not you may kick me….(once only
    > please) ), but in these months fighting is PROHIBITED as it is disrespetful
    > to the sanctity of the month. for a long time the Meccans were disturbing
    > and agonising the Prophet PBUH and his people. (dont know exact deatils of
    > how, will get them if needed…). Many times treaties had been made with
    > them, and every single time the treaties would be broken immediately, before
    > the ink had dried. So the only solution was the sword, so it says that you
    > should slay them, but note it also says until they desist, so it wasnt a
    > kill them regardless deal…
    > As far as do not make friends with others. The ruling we live with today is:
    > Muslim friends are preffered (this strengthens brotherhood and allows us to
    > suppoort each other, makes sense), but friends of other friends are not
    > condemned as it would say in every anti-Islam website etc. I would like the
    > ref to that so i can look it up…
    > “had a Christian cross on it”.
    > not an intentional thing, its nothing to do with christians. Isnt it too
    > square, i mean isnt the Christian Cross longer at the bottom. forgive me if
    > that is my ignorance, but we are all learning..
    > where is the difference as far as incitement of violence law goes? and the
    > invoking terrorism law (i believe that one is in force now isn’t it?). sorry
    > im not a lawyaer, so not got a lawyer hat yet.. but i mean, usually its
    > quite humanly clear. I mean, who didnt see this coming?
    > ____
    > harry:

    > also most of them are sheea`a muslims and they got influenced by thier
    > leaders really

    >
    > ouch. thats sooo not true. We do have brains. ALL of our religious leaders
    > (Ayatullahs) have condmened Osama. I believe, at least the promonent ones
    > have… there will be exceptions, eg someone supporting part of what he
    > stands for (anti-US) but tahts not really the same… but harry, dont make
    > sweepings statements please, tahts for everyone too… sweepings statements
    > = ALMOST ALWAYS FALSE…
    > Note I have said alot of those points earlier… good post
    > _____
    > Pilchard. SOO TRUE
    > *BANGS HEAD ON WALL*
    > I SAID THAT!!!!!!!!! AAAHHH going mad as people dont seem to understand what
    > i say.. is it my e-accent??
    >

    > Murtaza, I think you need some tuition in what an apology is-

    > ahh the passive agressive again. hehe, i didnt threaten you nor anyone. I
    > didnt do any of taht, im trying to make you see the otehr side of the coin.
    > I am offering my apologies as a third party… not a terrorist… I AM NOT
    > ONE..
    >

    > on what basis do you assert this? and on what basis do you say that these
    > cartoons were not a valid comment about Islam – because you and other
    > Muslims say so? the world can’t be run as Muslims want it to be run.

    > keep up please, we covered this, its not RIGHTS. the word to be used instead
    > is RIGHT…
    > IE it is not right…
    > And as far as who decides that, Morality. Simply put, did Prohpet Muhammed
    > PBUH do anything? brought about Islam..? Did Islam do anything? give these
    > people a name to use..? Thats neither Islam’s nor the Prophet PBUH’s fault.
    > If you can get another reason Islam/The Propeht PBUH did anything, then
    > usually its bad references from convincingly written sites using “corrupted”
    > info. read previous posts about context…
    >

    > the world can’t be run as Muslims want it to be run.

    > When was it? When was it demanded? not doing somethihng wrong isnt a Muslim
    > thing, and if it is i think the world should be run by Muslims hehe. and
    > “its not wrong blah blah”, read the previous part of this post…
    > ________
    >

    > harry, you have some extremely worrying attitudes. people like you are the
    > oxygen that fanatics and terrorists…. Peace thru superior firepower I say!

    >
    > Oh the Irony. Does not need a reply. Read previous posts.
    > _____________________

    > they just want Muslims to stop telling THEM what to do. What passed as
    > acceptable in the 14th century is no longer seen as civilised behaviour – so
    > get a crash course in the 21st century!

    >
    > mmm, we didnt tell YOU to do ANYTHING… Sorry, we did, we said you should
    > not do something wrong, atleast not to us..
    > Read my posrt about lack of respect and its effects in the 21st century.
    > Theres your crash course…
    > ______
    >
    > harry sorry i repeated you hehe.

    > dont get my stereo very loud in the night because this will annoy my
    > neighbors .. im free to do it and even annoy them but this will have no
    > respect and i dont accept it

    > not true, sorry in UK thats not allowed hehe, so laws do already exist taht
    > FORCE respect for others.. so its just an extra addition we ask..
    > _______
    >
    > beautiful second post Harry.
    > Jazakallah (The thanks of Allah – i think)
    > _______
    > Dennis
    > I would protest about that “art”, on the same grounds i argue this one.
    > difference is, and this is what makes it so amazingly sad, the fact Muslims
    > got SOO worked up about it is why its on so many front pages. But we cant
    > condone it (stay silent). catch 22…
    >
    > I would want to come up with a clever response, but it certainly wouldn’t be
    > something so obvious or primitive as violence
    > tahts what we are doing, trying to turn a few heads.. hehe, same boat, Arif.
    > Thing is, not evryone controls anger taht well, and between fanatics and
    > lunatics we have bomb threats. Alot of these people, and i apologise for my
    > last statement are simply mis-guided. what can we do. this thread is for
    > them too.. so all you who make/made Muslim threats. THAT IS NOT ISLAM
    > BOTHER/SISTER..
    >

    >Â The very first one, the paramount right, is the freedom of speech which
    > your side is insisting must be abridged.

    > abridge:
    > To reduce the length of (a written text); condense.
    > To cut short; curtail. See Synonyms at shorten.
    > mm, not exactly, we didnt want to, as i said earlier. we thought/trusted
    > that you had good judgement, and would use this right wisely, but since this
    > cannot be done, what other option is there?
    > PS meaning is there coz i can be a bit stupid as far as vocab goes..
    >
    >

    > abridging our right to freedom of expression is a fundamental revocation of
    > a pillar of Western Civilization.

    >
    > i retort: abridging respect for others is an even more fundemental
    > revocation of a pillar of HUMANITY.
    > although you want to be able to do everything ever possible, it is just not
    > possible, the rights need to be cut off somewhere… cant have unlimited
    > rights. Rights to insult move on to rights to abuse. verbally. then
    > physically. then what? I know you say that wont hapen, but a number of years
    > ago they would have said taht what is hapening today, disrespect of child to
    > parent, rape of teachers by pupils etc wouldnt ever happen…
    >
    >

    > an opportunity for our Muslim friends to be magnaminous

    >
    > magïnanïmous
    > adj.
    > Courageously noble in mind and heart.
    > Generous in forgiving; eschewing resentment or revenge; unselfish.

    > hehehe. well first off there will need to be an apology. Looking back. You
    > agree on our points of respect. So this is disrespectful. UNJUSTIFIED
    > Disrespectful is wrong…? thus an apology is pending. (for replies to
    > unjustified read the previous posts. Prophet Muhammed PBUH not being the
    > cause etc…)
    > Nice idea… BUT that is negotiating with the Muslims who will negotiate,
    > what about the “Muslims” i.e. terorists…?
    > _____
    > Pilchard

    > unfortunately we are focussed on the belligerent and attention-seeking
    > minority at the present time

    > And is our Prophet PBUH i that minority? no? then why is he being drawn not
    > terrorists? as i have said, its not him its them draw them and ill have a go
    > too…
    >

    > Islam was civilised at one time – shame it all went tits up after that.

    > tut tut sweeping statements. bear in mind you are talking to Muslims who are
    > not holding a knife a gun and a video camera… ;) BTW feel free to come
    > over for a bbq, but itll be Halal meat.. hope thas not a problem. (PS more
    > passive aggressiveness… alot of hatred..?)
    >

    > You’re right of course – most Muslims don’t want this violence. The current
    > inaction by the police in the UK is bad for everyone. I apologise if I have
    > misinterpreted what you have said

    > hmm, the police are running under the same banner as was raised early in the
    > thread.
    >
    > IMPORTANT COMMENT, PLEASE RESPOND:
    > do we not agree taht that is an incorrect one? absolute freedom is clearly
    > being abused… By our “Muslim” protesters and by these images…?

    > _____
    > Perry, again, come on, please now

    > I have read a translation of the Koran (several years ago) and I have known
    > many Muslims

    >
    > CONTEXT. I have read the Quran, doesnt mean you understood what it said. you
    > took it in a way YOU thought was right. and with this same method terrorists
    > are working into minds of Muslims, and converting them. We need CONTEXT.
    > earlier in this post I talked about 1 such quote… do you want an ISBN num
    > of a good book for commentry (ON CONTEXT…)??
    > I am not posting it immediately so that you dont think im advertising lol
    >
    > Perry, Punish is a harsh word. we want an apology, is taht a punishment??
    > the law is not simply for something taht Muslims are experienceing against
    > Muslims alone. Others have experienced it too. the “art” earlier. Muslims
    > are simply more volatile and many are misguided at this moment in time.. so
    > the reaction was more volcanic than in the “art” example…
    > ____
    > Ausitn, read the thread. you wont learn if you dont read… and Pilchard,
    > you were so rational a minute ago, dont spoil it…
    > ____
    >
    > KH, you are in the same boat as Austin. I hope i ahvent offended either of
    > you, you arent illetrate are you?
    > (passiv aggressive, i know. Im sory guys)
    > but say all you want, you need to use your BRAINS..
    > heres a thought. Absolute freedom of speech. good or bad?
    > Dont throw me an answer, just turn it over a few times in your head, and
    > then look from a diferent perspective…
    > _____
    >
    > Chritopher:

    > It sees pictures of hostages, bombings, desecration of sensitive symbols and
    > wanton destruction of property and life at home and abroad.

    >
    > Nice touch…
    >

    > The Islamic world feels a victim of its own impotence.

    >
    > im�po�tent   ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mp-tnt)
    >Â adj.
    >Â Lacking physical strength or vigor; weak.
    > Lacking in power, as to act effectively; helpless: �Technology without
    > morality is barbarous; morality without technology is impotent� (Freeman J.
    > Dyson).
    >Â Obsolete. Lacking self-restraint.

    > which one?
    >
    > Like the last paragraph. Remind me of the middle ages.. shouldnt there have
    > been a period of love already?? Perhaps its history repeating itself, as
    > said by My Imam, Ali (a.s.)
    > cool post.
    > ______
    > doener:
    > sorry about the earlier cracks at your name…
    >

    > As long as the protesters ar burning Austrian, Swiss or chiean flags i
    > really doubt if the IQ’s of muslims is higher than their body temperature.
    > As long as somebody justifies killing in front of a video camera I would
    > even dare to say IQ is goint towards Kelvin.

    > 0 celcius = 273 kelvin. so trhey are smarter if they kill infront of
    > cameras? how so? hmmm irony hehe
    >

    > The big fear is that there are to many of those low brainers around and -
    > let us talk once not about religion.

    > and therfore achieve what?
    >

    > Imagin it would need millions of embassies before the West gets freed of
    > that scrap

    > get your bricks
    >

    > The reactions of the so called peaceful and tolerant believers cries out for
    > more……..

    > please, at least make sense…
    > _____
    > Dennis:
    >

    > dailykos… there have been many images of the Prophet PBUH before?

    am i
    > ignorant..?
    > as for fox news… well they are angry.. not everyone is willing to discuss,
    > and there isnt exactly a global platform currently in place for use, so the
    > world knows whats going on…
    > _____
    > Harry:

    > why ? i dont know maybe my name is hard for them ?!?

    > beautiful example by a lecturer, often “westeners” (cant think of any
    > speling, its 3.15am..) often say, o right, can i can you, for example,
    > Harry. Why? its difficult.. Ok, so may i call you Ahmed? why? yours is
    > difficult for me… should happen.. hehe. Multiculturalism at its best..
    >
    > MANY POINT I MAKE HERE ARE MADE REDUNDANT BY AN EXCELLENT POST BY HARRY.
    > SORRY…

    > ___
    > doener:
    > have you stumbled across a goldmine.
    > what is

    “religious violence”

    ? no dircet reply please…
    > haw can it be misused.. for personal.political gain, say in countries which
    > are occupied by for eg. the US…?
    > think..
    > _____
    > Steve:

    > Seems to me, y’all were itching for a fight or an excuse to have one. A
    > bunch of cartoons is not a reason for these ridiculous actions, it’s just
    > the most recent excuse.

    > how far is it from a peaceful protest by angered people to what we see? not
    > far. perhaps if they werent angry. perhaps with a little responiveness from
    > Denmark..
    > suggestive insults:

    > Support free speech! And sanity. And civility. And culture….

    > reminds me of earlier me being told i cant think independantly (perhaps
    > accidentally… we shall wait and see.. ;) )
    >

    > BTW, y’all can’t seem to can it about ‘respect.’ Well you sure as hell ARE
    > NOT doing a very good job of earning it as a society as a whole right now!

    > THE TV does not count as RESEARCH into a people (not a race, since we are
    > not aparently..) remeber, they want to sell a story. the truth of a peaceful
    > Islam isnt gona sell…
    > _____
    >
    >Â lllltbonellll
    > like the post.. very true. but HOW can we look at that problem
    > (fundementalists – bit of a catchphrase now isnt it. is it strictly a true
    > one, it suggests they are still muslim, so nope..), America’s solution
    > (fight fire with fire) isnt working…
    > _______
    > No Name:

    > If nobody in the muslim world was allowed to publish the so called
    > ‘offensive’ cartoons, how the hell does the millions of protesters in the
    > muslim world know what they are protesting about?

    > what year are you from sorry. Think about it. INTERNET, news isnt gona bar
    > this…
    > _______
    > fahed:

    > Peace be upon you and hope this situation to be over soon let�s forget the
    > past and go forward because any cultural clashes is not going to help any
    > one but the extremists and radicals. And I hope the bad type of my people to
    > not to take this for their own good.

    > Ilahi-Ameen (Amen)
    > good sentiment.. some of the points resemble earlier ones, lets not go down
    > them again, we are here…
    > ____
    > Az, If harm is higher then Ofence, then to offend isnt to harm. (or if im
    > confused then harming isnt offending.) my point, are they not the same?
    > expand please, examples usually do the job..
    > ____
    > Perry your last link, interesting. not heard of them, i see the main offence
    > as the mockery of him for no real necessity. we have covered alternatives
    > which show freedom of speech and are not offensive on these levels…
    >
    >
    > Anywho, we are nearing a close I think.
    >
    > I just want to know thoughts on Respect boundries VS ABSOLUTE freedom…?
    >
    > btw look up Muarram / Ashura. Very sad heart-wrenching story. As a personal
    > favour. Please.

    > Wasalaam.
    > Murtaza
    > PS one more long post.. sorry
    > PPS sorry If i offended anyone. Please forgive me.
    >
    > Thought from Islam: Educational discussion is more rewarding (thawab) in the
    > eyes of Allah (s.w.t. – sorry, no translation, rusty memory) than prayer or
    > reciting Qur’an.
    > bye for now!! live, learn and love..
    > wassalaam (again)

    Perry, reject the last copy of this post please..

  • Murtaza

    Sorry, this post is a day old… jus thought i’d let you know…

    Thanks
    Wasalaam

  • Archangel J

    With the spread of 100′s of thousands of Muslim reactionnaries over the Danish cartoons, with all the placards of “Europe will get their 911,” the burning of embassies, the childlike reaction of the Iranian PM to mock the holocaust (which he previously said did not exist) with cartoons, and the screams of death to the Danes, the French (and anyone siding with them), I can only surmise this religion of Islam teaches hatred, intolerance, and sanctimonious ethnocentric viewpoints. It must be time to end this blasphemy toward GOD, and end the organized religion of Islam. It is no longer helping to civilize humankind. It IS the problem. I, the archangel J have spoken.

  • jez

    thank God!
    for the internet,,
    free speech is alive and kicking,,,

    http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha.htm
    http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge.htm

    and thanks to the total over reaction by the offended party over a few cartoon drawings, prompted me to look further as to why…

    the root cause becomes all to apparent

    thank God for the internet ,, may it remain free for all to see,,, and my children remain as free to express whatever they like, whenever they like,, without the threats of murder, death, etc etc..
    and if you dont like it ,,, you will remain as ignorant today as you was yesterday,,
    or 1400 years ago,,

  • Mike from the U.S.A.

    This site has the most refreshing dialogue I have read in a long time. I have gained a very high regard for the brave Danes that without compromise hold up logic and reason above dogma.

  • Dawn

    At the risk of sounding silly, I thought I’d toss out one point that I have not seen addressed here. Specifically, every conversation I have ever had with a Muslim has devolved into them denying the divinity of Christ. Period. Now, I realize that many, if not most, of the posters here are agnostic, at the least. It is my right to believe what I wish. I believe, with all my heart, that there is a God who is aware of us as individuals, and who cares about us as individuals. I believe that He cares for us so much that He willingly sacrificed His son to open a door for us which was otherwise shut fast.

    Now, Muslims worldwide are demanding ‘respect’ for their beliefs. Yet, time and again, they denigrate what is precious to me, and to millions of others. I know that the Koran/Quran teaches that ‘those who believe in a book’ must be left alone, unmolested, after being “offered” the chance to become Muslim. (Usually interpreted as meaning the Bible or Torah.)

    I feel that I am ‘molested’, nay, violated, every time I am forced to deal with a sacreligious, blasphemous, disrespectful Muslim. Their beliefs attack the reality of all of Western Civilization’s basis. What hubris of Islam, to assert that after Mohammed there will never be another prophet; it denies the entire history of Judaism and Christianity.

    So. How do I obtain the reciprocal apology they must surely have in reserve for such as I – an innocent believer, wrongly offended by unthinking, heathenish religious intolerance. If no apology is issued to me, do I have the permission of Muslims everywhere to respond to them in the same currency they are exchanging with our world? Will millions of Muslims protest and demonstrate on my behalf if I protect God’s reputation (as if He needs my help!) from their predatious ways? Ah, where is Dear Abby when you need some good advice? I ponder…. but thought I’d share my pondering, in hopes of feedback…. I’ve enjoyed mightily the exchanges I’ve read here…. Thank you all for your intelligence and thoughtfulness. Okay, almost all of you. Some of you are drooling on your keyboards, and you probably don’t have a clue that it’s you…. so, I can’t very well say you know who you are. That’s the sad thing about zealotry…. total loss of introspection. Ahh….

  • muslimah

    Donkey KEbab (lolz)
    chill out, i wont disappoint u but the thing is the country u live in has different timing from mine when u have night we have day
    so , So Long Sucker keep up with ur corney work looolz poor poor donkey i know its hard for u to answer all the things i said so u chosed the other way to avoid it.
    but uh ahh i won’t change the topic! oh yea now, now i can hear ur momy calling u , go and change ur diper.
    and oh yea one more thing before u go, remember i won’t disappoint u but now i have to get some sleep since last night i spend reading and writing comments.
    and same message to all who don’t want to be disappointed by me.
    hehehhehe

  • doener kebab

    Yes I was not precise with Kelvin but it is meant as below

    As long as the protesters ar burning Austrian, Swiss or Chilean flags i
    really doubt if the IQ’s of muslims is higher than their body temperature.
    As long as somebody justifies killing in front of a video camera I would
    even dare to say IQ is goint towards zero degree Kelvin.

    Religious violence is e.g. destroying buddha statues. So no Muslim should ever talk about respecting another religion anyhow an besides…

    Mohammed ist not looking ugly…. he looks even uglier than expected. It was high time to draw this f***ing bastard.

    Shoudl be also a competition like the Iraniean launched around Holocaust.

    Rest of comment deleted by Admin: we are all for ‘robust’ debate but Mr. Doener Kebab is just lowering the tone a bit too far. More like this and we will start deleted and banning entire comments. This is private property and we retain the right to stop people crapping all over it.

  • gordon

    Muslims of the world are entitled to boycott Danish (and Scandinavian?) products.

    I encourage non-Muslims to purchase those products.

    PS. is it not ironic that the Muslims of the world have just validated the “bomb turbaned Mohammed” caricature.

    Also…. is a written word “MOHAMMED” not also a sorta picture???

  • Troy

    Christopher~

    I do believe this is appropriate for this forum for the “God” topic.

    This Cartoon debate is all about the Word of GodReligious Dogma vs. “Free Speech”.

    To Muslims “The Word of God” is much more important than “Free Speech”, or any other freedom for that matter. I assume this would be the case to many “God fearing” people. I, on the other hand, believe that “Free Speech” is more important. Even if I were to believe in a God, I would not believe in any of the Dogma that follows.

    You stated:
    “The question I believe that We have to ask ourselves when reading or listening, watching and thinking is: Does what we read, see, hear and think and do, spread the message of love, peace, happiness, understanding and acceptance contribute to the general well being of all?”

    Christopher, that is right on! I couldn’t agree more.

    With your explanation, I don’t see any reason for the Bible, Koran, or any other Dogmatic text. If we simply look for what is good while, reading, listening, watching and thinking, why do we need these texts to tell us these things? Per your statement, we can decide what is right or wrong for ourselves.

    Religious Dogma clouds and distorts this good judgment.

    For example: Believing that making a cartoon of a prophet, or homosexuality for that matter is inherently wrong, and that these acts need to be punished. Our own good judgment should tell us that there is nothing inherently wrong with drawing a cartoon of anyone, and human affection of any kind is better than hate. But that is not what these books teach people. Instead of thinking for themselves, in the way you stated above, they let these books define the rules of moral code for them.

    People using Religious Dogma for Moral Code IS part of the discussion.

    “… we often act in positive ways to stop the pain of others. This is compassion. Atheists can perhaps express compassion more easily than believers because we are not confused by fatalism (“Whatever happens is God’s will”), pessimism (“We deserve to suffer”), salvation (“Death is not the end”), retribution (“Justice will prevail in the afterlife”), magic (“Pray for help”), holy war (“Kill for God”), forgiveness (“I won’t be held responsible for my mistakes”), or glory (“Suffering with Christ is an honor”). Since this is the only life we atheists have, each decision is crucial and we are accountable for our actions right now.”

    -Dan Barker (Article – How can an Atheist be moral? For Goodness Sake ((http://www.ffrf.org/about/bybarker/goodness.php(Link)))

  • francis fernandes

    Nice web site :) cool

  • doener kebab

    Fair enough admin the rat thing was maybe too much.

    The controversy goes on and I am delighted that especially France was issueing new mohammed cartoons in Charlie Hebdo. The Two pictures are addressing exactly the right subjects. Under the first picture is the following text:
    “Mahomet débordé par les intégristes” which means “Muhammed overwelmed by fundamentalists.”
    The second picture is even nicer showing a desperate muhammed saying:
    “C’est dur d’être aimé par des cons” freely translated “I’ts hard to be loved by idiots.

    So idiots: take the challenge! The words are coming from France, boycott now French products, burn down French embassies but please lock in more believers when burning down these institutes as a earlier said only one dead per embassy is too few.

    I myself just keep back watching the new clash.

    PS: Charlie Hebdo sold over 400’000 copies today. So the face of Mohammed seems now well known

  • doener kebab

    Sorry I forgot to add the link

    http://permanent.nouvelobs.com/photos/20060208.OBS2805.jpg

    Have fun!!!

  • doener kebab

    … just found a cool site with tons of mohammed pictures and I can tell u they are not so nice

    It is a Dutch site and there in between the nice mohamed cartoons there is a picture if the Dutch national flag just in case you idiots do not know what to burn as the flag looks similar to the French one…….

    …. but it doesn’t matter anyhow

    Mo’ hammed fun

    Relax, sit back and enjoy…..

  • I wonder what happen to peaceful dialogue as the Quran advocates.
    “Say: Bring your proof (of what ye state) if ye are truthful.” (Surah II – The Cow: III)

    We ought to take a second look at this God (Allah), for it seems to me that those (atheists) who do not pray at all are by far happier than those who pray five times a day.

    It is rather difficult to conclude the cartoonist to be ignorant, for if we do, it wouldn’t speak much for the religion, then it can take only one fool by a few strokes of a pen to infuriate 1.5 billion people.
    http://www.vjsingh.com

  • doener kebab

    Very wise Vijai Singh!

    It is not for confrontation’s sake but for bringing drawings into relation to the violence coming out from thes few drawings.
    In the meantime it became Non-believers nationa sport to draw mohamed.
    Look at the following website (all believers I must warn you. What you see in there could cause severe brain irritation and motion sickness)

    Very ugly pictures

    Without this hateful reaction, all of this counter reaction would never have been started.

    I guess in one or two month we will have zillions of Mohammed pictures and the interest will go down.

    Promise: My last link!

    Again realx, look at the pictures and don’t forget to read the comments

    PS: I do not know what nation is behind so I have no clue what flag to burn or what embassy to destroy or what products from the West to boycott.

  • christopher

    Murtaza, since I read your quote from the Kuran I have decided to show you:

    6. Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings.
    The Clear Proof 98:6

    From a translation of the Koran by M. M. Pickthall

    Personally I don’t think this needs any commentary!!
    Anyone who can read, can clearly understand the meaning.

  • christopher

    Troy,

    “With your explanation, I don’t see any reason for the Bible, Koran, or any other Dogmatic text. If we simply look for what is good while, reading, listening, watching and thinking, why do we need these texts to tell us these things? Per your statement, we can decide what is right or wrong for ourselves.”

    COMMENT:
    I believe there is a Creative Intelligence behind or contained within the Universe.

    God is like the Sun, It shines everywhere. It makes no distinction between clean and dirty places. The Sun shines everywhere.

    Just as the Sun’s energy can be harnessed as in growing things, creating heat, so too can we harness the energy of God.

    The God of the Scriptures has been subjected to individual and collective Egos because they(the ones that wrote the scriptures down initially) were not totally “pure in heart and mind”.

    Human beings have different levels of consciousness which is clearly demonstrated in what we are seeing in the actions and reactions in the world today.

    When one reads the Bible, The Koran for example, one can find many beautiful inspiring passages, these are written from the inspired Higherself which everyone has access to. Even the “Authors” of the Scriptures.

    The word for God in Hebrew is JAHWEH, this word of God was never to be spoken out aloud!! It was just to be thought of in mind alone! Everytime one read The Word for God one said aloud ADONAI, which means Lord.

    The meaning of the word JAHWEH is I AM
    herein lies the greatest mystery of the human being.
    In effect we human beings are creations of the Creative Intelligence we call God, Allah, Shiva etc. We are created in Gods image, we are exactly like God!!

    To experience the I AM experience and to live IT is the highest achievement a human being can aspire to.

    Jesus said “I AM” When He said that, he did it with the full experience of knowing that HE and GOD were ONE. There is no separation when the ego is transformed. No separation from the Universal Intelligence and Energy is experienced. The enlightened one becomes aware that He is Holy, He is now I AM.

    The one that has achieved the I AM sees himself connected with all humanity, all plant and animal life here on Earth and in the Universe.

    When Jesus said “I am the Son of God” he was not speaking for himself alone, he had no Ego, he was speaking representially for all MANKIND. He was and is ONE with everything and everyone!!

    Now those hearing him did not understand completely, so they said “He is the ONLY son of God” and so wrote of him as such. And as all this writing took place many years later many things of Jesus became changed…..He is ALLEDGED to have said ALL the things in the New Testament..but did he??

    There are those on the Planet that can read the Bible and the Koran and understand the situation and consciousness of the “authors” of these works. There are those on the Planet that can understand through a “pure heart and mind” the true Intention of the Creative Intelligence which tries to Manifest ITS MIND through the human race.

    The concept of I AM is never spoken, it is one of the mysteries. Mystic experience is the direct revelation of the Creator to those that choose to experience their true spirit nature of MIND with the ALL.

    FREE WILL is the inheritance the human spirit contains within itself……it is the shared experience with the Creator. The created are just like the Creator. The I AM is the consciousness of power of Creation.

    We the human race have FREE WILL…..because we have been created in the Image of The Creator.

    How will we use this FREE WILL????

    The voice for God is not a pushy, loud, screaming insistance but rather a gentle, patient, loving friend and teacher that WAITS to be invited into the minds and hearts of the invitor.

    God does not make distinctions between a Believer and an Unbeliever, Agnostic or Atheist! The Love of God, the Inner Voice for God is patiently and lovingly waiting for the invitation to assist us in the realization of I AM.

    Many so-called Atheists and Agnostics are much closer to the principle of I AM then they think!!

    Remember! the Infinite Love of God is never far, it is contained within ourselves. We are ONE with GOD.

    If a human being becomes conscious of his own Holiness he will behave WHOLLY. This human being will think, make decisions and act in accordance with his own Higher Intelligence.

    THINK FOR YOURSELVES AND FIND THE TRUTH

    The quest for the “Holy Grail” is only symbolic for the search for the I AM experience.

    Amen, Amun, Amin.

  • Murtaza

    Christopher.
    Good quote, mine is similar:
    “Verily, those amongst the people of the book who disbelieve, and thepolytheists, shall abide in the fire on hell. They are the worst of creatures.”
    Al-Bayyinah (The Clear Evidence) 98:6

    Personally I don’t think this needs any commentary!!
    Anyone who can read, can clearly understand the meaning.

    mmm, intresting. What do you understand from it?

    this is what the commentry says:
    ” To reject the truth and belie the truthful is the worst sin a creature, endowed with the ability to discriminate between right and wrong and to use his free will, can commit. Therefore it will be necessarily bring its own punishment, because such a person is the worst of creatures”.

    Nowhere does it say this is for the people to judge, nor to enforce this fact (a fact to me, a theory/ideology to you)

    It is interesting to me how people will not respond to points made against them that are difficult to argue/ imply their defeat and bring up the same points again at a later point..

    vijai, your quote is wrong, please check you refference… I have a feeling this was infact from a confrontation between the Muslims and Christians of the time. (the Muslims one). This was in no way physical, by the way.

    I have retired from most of the posting’s replies since i have made my points. eg.

    Christopher,

    We the human race have FREE WILL…..because we have been created in the Image of The Creator.

    does it follow no other creatures have free will? a horse will run free in the wild, as it wills.. mutsang i believe they are in america..

    Gordon:

    PS. is it not ironic that the Muslims of the world have just validated the “bomb turbaned Mohammed” caricature.

    and how would that be?

    Dawn, your point was covered earlier… there is a diference between beliefs and mockery. We will freely discuss this topic, BUT insulting is not going to help anyone.

    does not the Bible say “Let he who is sin free cast the first stone”? i see the Christians here casting many stones. Art thou sin free?

  • John Smith

    Can someone explain what the comic showing Mohammed pulling a donkey means? Is that pink object a balloon or the sun?

    Thanks.

  • Murtaza

    By the by, Christopher.
    Since you believe we are created in the reflection of God, and He is loving, etc. We should thrive to be like Him (and Jesus). If Jesus never disrespected someone then condoning someone/some people who disrespect 1.5billion people is ok? remember just because they show hatred to you is no reason not to love them (although I do not show any hatred to you, and neither do majority of Muslims), remeber ..Turn the other cheek.

    feel free to respond (to this, not by throwing an insult. that would simply mean you agree but don’t want to admit you may be wrong..)

    wasalaam
    Murtaza

  • christopher

    Murtaza:

    I am glad you shared with us the enlightened commentary on the Koran.

    Depending on the level of consciousness attained by the reader so too will the interpretation reflect this state.

    However; MANY readers of the Scriptures will interpret the verses literally. The commentary you published (alas without source reference) is indicative of what I wrote:

    “There are those on the Planet that can read the Bible and the Koran and understand the situation and consciousness of the “authors” of these works.”

    These “readers” posess certain “Keys” to understand. These readers understand the true nature of what the “true Intention of the Creative Intelligence which tries to Manifest ITS MIND through the human race.” means.

    Your question:

    “does it follow no other creatures have free will? a horse will run free in the wild, as it wills.. mutsang i believe they are in america..”

    I believe I made it clear with:

    “The one that has achieved the I AM sees himself connected with all humanity, all plant and animal life here on Earth and in the Universe.”

    This knowledge of Unity carries with it the greatest respect for ALL manifestations of Life. Everything is ONE.

    I am NOT addressing the “animals of the planet” in this forum:) Please forgive the restrictions that I have placed on myself which is reflected in what I wrote:

    “We the human race have FREE WILL (…)”

  • Imran

    The first and basic lesson of ethics is not to hurt any bodies feeling. This is like a universal truth and history proven that Muslims are very possessive for their religion of Islam. We love and respect our prophet Muhammad (PCBH) more than in any of our relationship even our parents. Just imagine if we love our Prophet (PBUH) to that extent, how the Danish Catoonists hurt our feelings. The heart of every Muslim of the world is crying.
    I must clear one thing here that Islam is a religion of Love & Peace. It is written in our Book that if we kill aN innocent humanbeing (of any religion) means the killing of the whole humanity. We are definitely no where stand for terrorism. But we look for justice and peace. We always strongly codemn the terrorist attacks any where in the world. We wish to see this world to the full of its beauty and peace. We have our respect for the great prophets Jesus and Moses. We can never even imagine of their disgrace. Rather we can never claim to be a true Muslim if we do not respect and accept the sanctity of Jesus and Moses.

    I submit here a very humble request to please do not play with our religious feelings. We just want to spread the message of love and peace. For God sake please make this world a liveable place. Let us start respecting all the religions and start living calmly.

  • Az

    Rick – what happened? Cat got your tongue? or maybe you’ve gone back to your mate dennis to answer my questions… its funny isn’t it how life isn’t like FOX, all ‘fair and balanced’ – sometimes you actually get a response to your rhetoric..

    murtaza – thanks for putting these Quranic ‘quotes’ into some kind of context, its always too easy for the ignorant to misquote using mistranslations which others then use as proof.. Wish I had your patience.

    deoner kebab – many many thanks for your considered and intelligent posts, you have raised the debate to a much higher level than I thought was possible.. wow what a brain…

  • christopher

    Murtaza:

    “(…)If Jesus never disrespected someone then condoning someone/some people who disrespect 1.5billion people is ok?(…)”

    Answer to your question:

    Condoning disrespect or those that perpetrate disrespect is not the issue. Namely, the right to free speech!!

    When someone insults God, or Jesus or Buddha or Mohammed I forgive the person that does the insulting!!
    That person is merely making use of his FREE WILL on his level of consciousness. God is infinitely patient and God is never insulted.

    Insult is a state of the Ego. Those that feel insulted have forgotten the I AM principle. I believe Jesus gave a very good example of “being insulted” and holding no grudges, instead forgiving his “Peiniger” (German for insulter) “Pein” also close to the word “Pain”. Peiniger (giver of pain).

    Writing what I wrote in this Forum about Jesus being not “the ONLY son of God” could have caused my physical death a few Centuries ago. FREE WILL and FREE SPEECH are very intertwined (explained in earlier posts of mine).

    I accept that FREE SPEECH can hurt. But I also know that “being hurt or insulted”, although very real for some, is a state of ego. Transforming the ego is much more nobler than reacting to it, in my opinion.

    I understand very well that Muslims feel hurt by those caricatures, but I do believe that God in His Mercy and Mohammed (praise be unto him) are smiling in love and forgiveness. Now, if only the followers of Mohammed (pbuh) try to be more like the Creator that created them and strive for the I AM principle, they too can “smile” again and return to the business of living their lifes as true “children of God”.

    Remember God is like the Sun. He makes no difference between clean and dirty places. He Shines on ALL. The sinner and the saint. God whose nature is Love makes no distinctions.

    The Ego wishes to belong to a select club, race, elite or religion. To be The chosen ones. When we all realize that EVERYONE is chosen, no matter the present conscious level or religious or non-religious affilitations, it becomes easier to forgive and smile again.

  • Mike

    Ok…. all of this to me is some extreme bullshit….. the’re freaking cartoons…. what the hell is wrong with representing some prophet with cartoons…. seriously, not trying to offend anybody or anything, but grow up, we arelivinginthe year 2006. i believe that people in the entire world should be smarter than that… how is burning embassies and violence going to make it any better…… messed up….. ohh and where are the freaking cartoos….. it’s really hard to actually find a good decent picture of them…. seriously….. This whole thing proves what is wrong with these people….

  • Imran: The first and basic lesson of ethics is not to hurt any bodies feeling

    I must disagree right from the start. In fact it is sometimes a moral imperative to hurt someone’s feeling if you need to disabuse them of a cherished but mistaken belief. Hurting someone’s feelings are often bad manners (not always however) but manners are valuable social conventions, not ethical imperatives.

  • christopher

    I totally agree with you Perry.

  • Well those are six words I don’t see very often! :-D

  • No Names Please

    Murtaza, I am from the part of earth where the Internet penetration rate is less than 10% and we are one of the more developed of the developing countries. Do you mean to tell me that the Afghans, Pakistanis, Moroccans, Palestinian protestors all have Internet access and have actually viewed those famous cartoons when they took to the mob and start mayhem? Or is it not more likely that they ‘saw’ the cartoons through the eyes of the muslim elites, comfortable in their air conditioned internet available homes who needed mobs to keep them comfortable? By the way, which part of the earth-time sphere are you from?

  • christopher

    Imaran:

    “The first and basic lesson of ethics is not to hurt any bodies feeling.”

    The choice to have ones feelings “hurt” remains just that, a choice!

    People choose to get hurt, ignore, accept or deny. Experiences are not dictated, they are namely, chosen interpretations by every individual to their own mind set.

    The perceived “hurt” can sometimes lead to serious introspect and a re-evaluating of previous thought patterns.

    Dialogue, even expression of “hurt” feelings can lead to an understanding and self critisizing self appraisal. Often to new levels of consciousness.

  • Murtaza

    The commentary you published (alas without source reference)

    Ah, i said i could tell you if you wanted. look up ISBN no 969-41-0001-1

    as far as not everyone understanding the Qur’an, please try to get this book. This has the commentry in it. I too am far from capable to know context of verses, I only read up… This is why we have these resource, and Imams.. but what happens when an Imam goes wrong?

    “(..)” I understand very well that Muslims feel hurt by those caricatures, but I do believe that God in His Mercy and Mohammed (praise be unto him) are smiling in love and forgiveness. Now, if only the followers of Mohammed (pbuh) try to be more like the Creator that created them and strive for the I AM principle, they too can “smile” again and return to the business of living their lifes as true “children of God”. “(…)”

    Intresting, what makes you so sure. Does there exist a hell? If so, why? whatever I do will be forgiven, by your theory.. what makes me want to live like Jesus PBUH? I could be an arrogant, hate-fueled, heartless killer; but God forgives, so where are my troubles? who draws the lines of forgiveness, if there are any? Jesus PBUH forgave all from what I understand. From our persepective we have free will, and our usage of that is a test in this temporary life, to be tested and determines our status in the next life.

    BTW this is about free speech, we covered this. If you wanted to say something, about someone, they were fully capable of making people think, and questioning. Instead, due to their
    a)ignorance (Prophet Mohammed PBUH is NOT todays Muslim in Denamrk, nor does he represent todays Islam)
    b)stupidity (Who didnt see this reaction coming, If you see it then why bring it on, only to say, you shouldn’t do taht. where does it help in the greater scheme of things)

    Simple solution would be to WRITE an ARTICLE.

    Az, im just trying to learn, and teach others as i do. I fear too many of these false quotes, like the final two from unsuspecting Christopher in his first post. WHERE WERE THOSE FROM, please?

    Mike, I understand your anger and despair. But the thing is, to you they are Just Cartoons. To us they are insult to the greatest man we ever knew, and for no reason.

    (…) This whole thing proves what is wrong with these people…. (…)

    what’s that? we have feelings? is that bad?

    (…)I must disagree right from the start. In fact it is sometimes a moral imperative to hurt someone’s feeling if you need to disabuse them of a cherished but mistaken belief.(…)

    after reading all of your statement, what is wrong with this one (as a justification for the printing)…?

    heres a clue

    (…)you need to disabuse ..a.. mistaken belief.(…)

    and why is taht? you dont need to, infact according to you, you have no right to. otherwise the western world would be caring about each others futures and trying to convert one another, and since this isnt happening, i guess that isnt a leg to stand on….

    No name, Im am in in the GMT time zone. And yes, I would not be surprised if they have seen the images. BUT although they were not allowed to be printed, Im sure there were vivid descriptions of them in the newspapers. sidenote, how would (EVERY) Muslim elite (who..?) be at an advantage if there were mobs in the streets, burning down embassies and turning away countries and hordes of trading businesses away from their respective countries…?

    Christopher,
    (…)The choice to have ones feelings “hurt” remains just that, a choice!(…)

    How so? Are you telling me that emotions are totally controlable, by anyone and everyone, so tehre is no need for people being hurt due to the offence caused.

    Can you tell a father morning a child that he is chosing to be sad/hurt? No, it is rarely a choice. Feelings are so called because they are felt. Although the mind can block out some, eg pain, it is not possible, without immense emotional training to simply block out feelings like hurt.

    I remember reading research about a number of nerves goin to the heart from the brain, and these are where feelings such as love, hate etc originate (or wahtever), and so it is true taht some feelings come from the heart. anyone else remeber this more clearly?

  • Murtaza

    Oh, Christopher
    PBUH is Peace be Upon Him

    (aka Salaam-ullahi alyahim/ alayha)

    not praise be…. thats more of a God thing I’d think. Thanks for the try though, it didnt go un-noticed :)

    Wasalaam

    PS did anyone read up on Muharram/Ashura/Imam Hussain?

  • No Name Please

    Murtaza, I actually meant whether you are in this century or the next. However, you got my point perfectly – the very VIVID descriptions fed to the masses. Reminds me about the joke where a highly sexed man sees every figure 1 as a naked man, a figure 0 as a naked woman and binary code as a nudist colony. I can describe a picture of the Virgin Mary as that of a tart, baring her private and forbidden body parts shamelessly for all to see and I will not be wrong technically because to a fundamentalist muslim an adult muslim woman cannot expose her face and hair to all but fellow women and close family but see the difference between the facts and the description? And, yes, people do gain from mobs and violence – from the sellers of weapons used by the mobs, the builders who are paid handsome sums to rebuild the perfectly good buildings burnt by mobs to politicians who thrive in a climate of fear and hate and who will only remain in power or gain political advantage when there is unrest and violence. Still remember Ulster, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Afghanistan, Somalia of the 20th Century?

  • mahoobah

    yes, I am afraid it is true. The Islamists are advocating having sex with children as young as 6-9 years old. They also like to amputate lims of disobediant women and stone them to death. The comics they are killing each other over represent, really, a clash between the modern west and the ancient Islam of the past. They will never embrace liberal values of freedom and respect for humanity. Hamas recently was elected just as hitler was “elected”. There is no choice but to bomb their military facilites and keep them penned up in large camps for detainment and “treatment”.

    The comic books have nothing to do with it. Thank GOD Mr. Bush is the prez and he will not hesitate to take them to task with all the power NATO has…

    the 1st iraq war cost 50K dead Iraqi soldiers. Sp Far only 30K have been killed in the 2nd war against Iraq.
    It is time now to extend the war…there is but a few million left…

    Mahoobah

  • muslimah

    donkey kebab, this is the one big diference between U wenterns SHit And us, when u westerns shit headed could not think of any thing and when we make u speech less, u cheep mud bloods try ur last try dreaming that u would insult us, but wake up donkey!! ur words and the jokes that u make dreaming ur veryyyy funnyyyyy show how cheap ,childish, uneducated and how f***ed up u r,
    but i have to tell u corny boy that isn;t gona work , u have to find an other way, seems to me ur out of ideas and questions proving our religion wrong! loolz
    too bad ur western shit isn’t helping u,
    and next time don’t be drunk while giving new shits.

  • donkey

    Donkey speaks:

    I am du donkey. it is all these Mullahs that are having sex with animals and small children that are the resons we must waist are boms on you r daisy cutters and all are smart bombs. also you will not be allowed nuclear power and will have to go back to your caves and toast your delicaies– camel dung and stale piss. i poop on you all and my donkey has diareeah and he poops on you to.

    nanananananan

  • pilchard

    Tezbo, I welcome your very enlightened comments. Again it is probably because you are well educated and Westernized that you can be more objective. The environment and education one has has a profound effect on ones ability to shake free of the more extreme doctrines, whether religious or secular.

  • pilchard

    Az, you come out with the same old excuses – Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia aren’t representative etc. Anyone who is a terrorist isn’t a true Muslim etc.

    Terribly convenient isn’t it?

    And why, when it has sharia law, isn’t Saudi Arabia a true Islamic nation? Surely it should be top dollar.

    Really all you’re saying is only someone whose behaviour is acceptable is really a true Muslim – in which case there must be rather less than 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. Try 1.6 million or less?

    In which case if there is such a small proportion of good people in Islam, then surely that is a product of their natures rather than Islam?

  • pilchard

    Murtaza, I reall don’t think you’ve grasped the whole argument if you believe “it is possible to
    > drive on the wrong side of the road, but will you do it when you get the
    > urge?? Yes, it is illegal, and yes it will be illogical” is a good argument against free speech. The two examples just do not equate, and its worrying that you can’t see that. As for the West – thats a term more often used by Islamofascists in fact (illogically – is Australia really in the West?).

    No matter how many times you say it, Islam is against free speech FULL STOP. And its easy to see why.

  • pilchard

    Murtaza, before you use words or phrases you’ve just discovered, please actually find out what they mean. You use the term “passive-aggressive” very freely but its clear you don’t actually know what it means. If you don’t have very good English (which appears to be the case) stick to what you know.

    You and other people seem to have a difficulty over us attacking Islam, since you assume we mean the “castles in the air” definition of Islam which is where peace reigns over a benevolent Caliphate which is cosmopolitan and kind (rather like some of the images in Revelations). In fact we are referring to Muslims on the collective, Islam as it is on the earth not inside the rosy-tinted spectacled world of someone’s head. It would be best for everyone is Muslims would tackle Islam as it is, not constantly refer to the “castles in the air” Islam.

    As for veiled threats (rather than “passive-aggressive” as Murtaza wrongly labelled them), the main aggression on this page comes from those claiming to Muslims (who may in fact be teenagers who’ve read too much Harry Potter cf reference to mud bloods – are we all muggles now we?)

  • pilchard

    Whether or not you believe in Jesus, according to the Bible Jesus did not go out of his way to avoid offending people. He purposely offended some sections of Jewish society in fact.

    I totally agree with PdH’s comments above. Sometimes it IS necessary to offend. The reaction of that person is ENTIRELY their responsibility, unless they have a psychosis. Does Islam have a psychosis? If so, is there a secure treatment facility large enough?

  • pilchard

    Again and again people like Murtaz talk about Mohammed. Please try and see things from others’ perspective – being a Muslim does not exempt you from this courtesy.

    Mohammed is DEAD.

    Mohammed was a man who lived in Saudi Arabia and started a religion.

    Those are the verifiable facts.

    Muslims will add on lots of other things re being a revered Prophet. That is YOUR opinion.

    So when you talk about offending the Prophet, you are not – you are talking about Muslims being offended. If Mohammed has any status above and beyond being food for worms, do you really think he is that bothered? What kind of insecurity would drive such offense?

    The fact this is a deeply held belief is neither here nor there as such.

  • pilchard

    “does not the Bible say “Let he who is sin free cast the first stone”? i see the Christians here casting many stones. Art thou sin free?”

    Murtaza, if you’re going to quote a Holy Book (one which Muslims generally don’t accept as holy anyway) please use the quote appropriately. Your use of the quote is even more inappropriate considering execution by stoning is an accepted means of punishment in some Muslim countries, and a particularly barbaric custom at that.

    You also seem to equate Westerners with Christians by and large – probably because it suits your ideology.

  • pilchard

    “I remember reading research about a number of nerves goin to the heart from the brain, and these are where feelings such as love, hate etc originate (or wahtever), and so it is true taht some feelings come from the heart. anyone else remeber this more clearly?”

    Which century was this from?

    If you want to be brought into the 21st (or even the 20th) I give you a run-down on the neuroanatomy relevant to emotion.

    Yes, it is a choice to be offended over some cartoons. Bereavement is rather different. The emotions one might feel in a certain situation are spontaneous but your actions are completely under your control. You can’t say being offended is an excuse for murder.

  • christopher

    After reading all of the commentaries here in this forum I have come to the following conclusion:

    The Religion known and practiced as Islam is NOT and I repeat NOT compatible with modern, enlightened society!!

    People in Europe have gone through hundreds of years of Religious wars to get where they are today……do they really want to invest more years and pain in dealing with Islam after finally getting Christian dogma off of their backs?

    Just as carrying a Bible in Saudi Arabia is a CRIME, I propose carrying a Koran in Europe should be designated illegal also.

    Just as it is illegal to build Churches in Saudi Arabia, I propose banning the building and operation of Mosques in Europe.

    I am WAITING for the chance to vote on such a proposition.

    Islam can never agree to separation of church and state!! It’s time people awoke to this reality.

    I am not worried if Muslims are offended. They are free to move to an Islamic State.

    Although I am a devoted follower of Jesus, there is NO CHURCH that I wish to belong to!!

    To the devoted followers of Mohammed (peace be unto him) thankyou Murtaza!! You don’t need to be a memeber of any Islamic organisation to follow an “enlightened interpretation of Islam” I personally would not choose Mohammed (pbuh) as my role model.

    A man that lead armies, robbed caravans, slandered other Religions, taxed those that did not want to convert to Islam and created a State, is not someone I and many others can admire and want to follow.

    Gandhi is a true man of God, one that many Muslims should more closely examine….but that is their issue.

    If anyone can give me any information on working towards banning Islam from Europe I would be greatly appreciative.

  • Az

    Christopher – thanks for exposing your authoritarian roots.. after all that energy devoted by you to defend freedom of expression you come to the conclusion that another enlightened value.. freedom of religion is dispensable.

    You can join several right-wing groups who want to ban Islam from Europe if you like. Lets see what they do to you when you disagree with them.

    Anything else you want to ban whilst you’re at it?

    Pilchard – to labour a point.. Saudi arabia is not a representative Islamic state because it is based on wahabism – which is not an intepretation of Islam I or many muslims would espouse. Simply having Sharia law does not make a state Islamic any more than having an election make a country democratic…

  • pilchard

    You have hit on a number of fundamenal points Christopher.

    1) The fact that Islam is inherently political. Christianity is based (in modern times anyway) on an individual acting according to his/her conscience. For Islam this is not enough – the Caliphate must be established and laws must be according the Islamic tradition. This means that conflict is completely unavoidable.

    2) Why should WE (in the West) turn back the clock and have to reinvent the wheel again?

    The main good point about Mohammed is that he liked cats! Not sure about anything else. From my reading I conclude he was not mentally stable, which I know will cause offence but thats my honest opinion.

  • pilchard

    err having a free and fair election IS what makes a country democratic!

    arguing over subtypes of Islam is splitting hairs

  • Az

    Pilchard

    ‘You and other people seem to have a difficulty over us attacking Islam, since you assume we mean the “castles in the air” definition of Islam which is where peace reigns over a benevolent Caliphate which is cosmopolitan and kind (rather like some of the images in Revelations). In fact we are referring to Muslims on the collective, Islam as it is on the earth not inside the rosy-tinted spectacled world of someone’s head. It would be best for everyone is Muslims would tackle Islam as it is, not constantly refer to the “castles in the air” Islam.’

    I would beg to differ, many of the attacks on Islam are on Islam’s very nature – hence your ‘castles in the air’ analogy is completely appropriate. read them again..

    As for YOUR attack on Islam as it is – well be specific what are you attacking? are you attacking Wahabi islam?, brelwi Islam? Shia Islam, Saudi Islam? Finsbury park mosque Islam?

    You can’t have it both ways old boy – either you are attacking the fundamental nature of Islam itself (castles in the air Islam) or you are attacking modern intepretations – in which case don’t generalise.. its a dangerous trait.

  • Az

    to split another hair before I pull mine out…

    I wrote ‘having an election’ NOT ‘having a free and fair election’.. the distinction was intentional.

  • pilchard

    Some freedoms have to be limited to allow other freedoms. That is to say there is negative freedom and positive freedom. Freedom from the fear of being shot may require restriction of the availability of firearms.

    If Muslims can’t play nicely their freedom of religion may have to restricted. You can say don’t fire at a Mosque, but when you say this when your own people are in the mosque firing out then that principle becomes null and void.

    Similarly your freedom to swing your fist stops at the end of my nose.

    NOTE however this applies to definite and discrete harms, not simply harm as Muslims (or anyone else) defines it, otherwise your restrictions on others limits their freedoms.

    This whole sphere needs a rather more sophisticated outlook than “You dissed us so you must pay” I’m afraid. If your religion limits you to this argument then let the battle begin!

  • Az

    I can’t remember saying your last point and I can’t remember Murtaza saying that either or many of the other reasonable muslims who have made many valid points.

    Sure we have our nutters but you’ve got your fair share as well (just examine this thread in its entirety).

    You are right all freedoms have limits – but banning a religion and its sacred texts – just cause a few people abuse them?

    I thought that you as libertarian (I’m playing safe and assuming you are one – not a neocon, although you could be both!) would not think banning ideas would be conducive for society under any circumstances.

  • pilchard

    Az, you have completely missed the point.

    Let me illustrate:

    say I am the Prophet of Satanism. I say that Satanism is a much misrepresented religion, which only aims to show all people the true god then all men will be at peace. I wish for all men to have 72 virgins when they go to heaven etc etc.

    Whatever ethereal desires of ANY religion, non-believers will (and this is a valid viewpoint) judge what the believers do and what the clerics say.

    So you or anyone else going on about “true Islam” makes not one jot of difference.

    Hopefully you can at least try to see things from another perspective – in my experience many Muslims actually think that is beneath them to even try.

  • Az

    I have no problem from seeing things from your perspective (and interestingly many of my muslim friends do as well, I am truly sorry that you have happened to meet those who try not to).

    In fact you have to understand opposing viewpoints in their entirety to even try and argue your own point – and believe me I am trying unlike many who it seems are jumping on the bandwagon of Islam-bashing without understanding Islam.

    I agree you should judge people on their actions but understand the context of their situation – including the political, economic and social dimensions. That does not in any way excuse their actions but it does at least provide the framework for the discussion of whether it is the ideology or the intepretation of that ideology which is at fault.

  • pilchard

    I don’t think any context excuses murder over cartoons – I just cannot see that.

    “Ideology” will always be couched where necessary for good PR. If you don’t think so, have a good read of the BNP website. You can pitch any policy in terms of positives if you have to. That is why to speak of ideology versus interpretation of ideology is for the reason I’ve mentioned futile.

    My comment re “dissing” is a summary of the reaction to the cartoons, and of some of the remarks made here.

    Re elections – by definition the only true type of election is a free and fair one, which is a definition which is generally accepted. Arguing about which form of Islam is correct is a totally different kettle of fish as you should realise. We really shouldn’t get stuck on basics like this surely? This is secondary school stuff.

    As for banning Islam – well for a start its not up to me or anyone else here. It will never happen. But there’s no reason why it shouldn’t if it were necessary. As I said, play nicely and your ball doesn’t get taken away.

  • Az

    oops and one quick last point..

    You said:
    “Whatever ethereal desires of ANY religion, non-believers will (and this is a valid viewpoint) judge what the believers do and what the clerics say.”

    I actually agree with you but that doesn’t make it right though does it.. people CAN judge and therefore proscribe an ideology but IMHO that doesn’t make their reaction just or valid.

  • pilchard

    I think the main problem is when for example institutions are set up whose aim is to make Britain Muslim. Could any Muslims enlighten us as to whether these organisations are considered extremist or part of mainstream Islam? That very much becomes a battles of cultures then understandably – I mean its a very arrogant attitude isn’t it? I guess its a reaction to the missionaries of the 19th century, but I don’t see why we have to relive the past?

  • Az

    On elections I really didn’t think I had to spell out the point I was making but all I was doing was making an analogy (and I admit not the best) for your use of Sharia to denote Saudi Arabia an Islamic State. As you correctly spelt out an election has to be ‘free and fair’ (which is why I ommitted free and fair) well sharia initself is not enough there has to be other conditions as well. Apologies to those who may be bored by the labouring of this point.

  • Az

    What institutions are you referring to?

  • Az

    ” “Ideology” will always be couched where necessary for good PR.”

    thats a bit overly cynical even for me…

  • pilchard

    No Az you really have missed the point. There is only one definition of a democratic state, which involves free and fair elections.

    What this has to do with you not subscribing to Wahhabism is beyond me, apart from avoiding the issue.

  • pilchard

    Az please don’t make tortuous points based on a strawman argument. I never in fact said that Sharia law (which I never specified either) made Saudi Arabia an “Islamic state” (which is probably another “castles in the sky” construction which is ultimately pointless for the reasons mentioned already). So don’t argument against a false statement of my position.

  • Az

    lol.. this is getting silly.. okay ABC time..

    An Election does not make a Democracy in the same way as Sharia does not make an Islamic State.

    Its the NATURE of the Election which is relevant as is the NATURE of the sharia law. Thus the free and fair precondition of an Election has its equivalent in the correct intepretation precondition of sharia law.

    Clear? i admitted its not the best analogy as there are many other conditions inherent in the definition of an Islamic State.

    Did I say it was only neocons who shout.. apologies it must be contagious..

  • pilchard

    Re institutions, I can’t remember the names of the bodies but it is a matter of public record there are such organisations which have made their aims public.

  • Az

    Pilchard – this is what you said…

    “And why, when it has sharia law, isn’t Saudi Arabia a true Islamic nation? Surely it should be top dollar”

  • pilchard

    No Az you’re being silly. Lets restate the basics. A FREE AND FAIR ELECTION DOES make a democracy.

    I never said Sharia law made an Islamic state, however you are saying I did (dishonest), then making a silly argument that one thing does not define democracy when IN FACT it does.

    Unfortunately emphasising in capitals seems the only way to actually attempt to get you back on topic, rather than a stupid diversion into semantics.

    An election that is not fair or free is not in fact an election, only in name. This is a stupid argument that is also totally off the point.

    I will not argue further on this stupid line. I don’t like wasting my time.

  • pilchard

    I posed a question, Az. Note the difference?

  • Az

    …and I answered it, but you are right this is getting dull

  • pilchard

    Well you are dull – you’re obviously trying to score points to counter the effect of your extremely thick co-religionists who can’t even understand the principles of retrograde motion. Don’t try and lie in the future please about what I’ve said – i know the Prophet thought lying was OK but in the West we consider it wrong.

  • pilchard

    All this is totally getting away from the point which is we have 1.6 billion people, in which a fair proportion think it is justified to loot, murder, burn on the basis of a few cartoons. In that context, abstract thinking about what an “Islamic state” is is rather a waste of time.

  • Az

    Someone is getting a little hot under the collar aren’t they.. lol.

    As someone who considers himself both muslim and a fully paid up member of the west don’t presume to lecture me on what ‘we’ consider right or wrong or accuse me of something which isn’t true..

  • pilchard

    Remember despite the protestations about Osama Bin Laden above (with all the usual disclaimers), 25% of British Muslims sympathise with OBL! These are the facts no matter what the apologists say.

  • Az

    I think on the contrary its the essence of the point – which is whether its the fault of the religion or the fault of a vocal minority of the followers who are misguided..

    I think we have established we differ to a large regard on that point. I just don’t like sweeping generalisations thats all.

  • pilchard

    Hot under the collar? Well if you understand the context… I should burning your embassy and stamping on your flag!!!

    I can say whatever I like, not being a Muslim. This is what I have been told, and if you want to correct me rather than burn my flag please go ahead. Just don’t BORE me with irrelevant ramblings about an Islamic state which is probably just a reiteration of Utopia in a Islamic form.

  • pilchard

    25% is a hell of a minority! imagine if 25% of Westerners wanted to wipe Islam off the map?

  • Az

    I think Pilchard we have the same Embassy and Flag… and I have corrected you – if it bores you.. tough.. don’t reply – thats your perogative.

  • Az

    18% of the french voted for Le Pen if I remember correctly – and that was in a ballot not some dubious opinion poll.

  • pilchard

    I don’t recall making any sweeping generalisations as such – and in any case you have made statements about neocons yourself. I think neocons are a perfect antidote to Islamofascism, as they seem the only opposition in fact.

    I think GWB’s legacy will be similar to that other misunderstood president Ronald Reagan. He sunk the Evil Empire of Russia, GWB will sink the Evil Empire of Islamofascism.

  • pilchard

    What a stupid comparison! A politician with a terrorist! If you really think there is any vaid comparison you’ll be saying cartoons are an incitement to murder next…

  • pilchard

    Same embassy and flag?

    I live in Pakistan. A small enclave in Birmingham. We have conferences here celebrating the “Magnificent 19″ (in facf they sell videos of the “glorious event” in BCM), people go round in vans at election time saying “Stay Muslim – don’t vote”, patriarchs vote for the whole family and the leader of BCM denies al-Qaeda exists.

  • pilchard

    excellent link vijay

  • Az

    “I live in Pakistan…”

    See how social, economic and political context is so illuminating…

    You should try living in a ‘proper’ city like London, it might help you to broaden your viewpoint by seeing a larger section of muslims living in a cosmopolitan environment and seeing how they interact.

    My point about Le Pen is one harking back to semantics unfortunately – A FACT is that he got 18% in the French Poll. I’m not equating him with OBL merely pointing out that a fascist got a huge popular vote..

    Whereas your point about Osama is not a FACT, its merely a statement of opinion. Your belief based on some dubious opinion poll is that 25% of British Muslims support OBL.
    As you well know it all depends on the question being asked..

    As Disraeli (or was it Mark Twain) so eloquently put it there are three types of lies: lies, damned lies and Statistics.

    As for Dubyas legacy – well we will find out, however I think his legacy is one of leaving the US as a reluctant interventionist rather than this bulwark you think it is.

    Post Gulf War 1 the US finally retreated out of its negative mindset that Vietnam had pushed it into but Gulf War 2 has sapped any appetite the US had for unilateral misadventures – lets watch the Iranian situation closely, I hardly see any likely regime change attempts there (or in N. Korea), Other than a few bombing raids what are they going do to a nation they have strengthened by removing its biggest enemy? I see today that even the head of Shin Bet is starting to recognise the folly of removing Saddam.

  • pilchard

    I think we should discuss some of the issues you’ve evaded proper answers on Az.

    “I don’t see too many protests about Israeli state sponsored killings either in the west” – well I have, and if we share an embassy and flag you should have. There are naive people who even go out to Palestine to put themselves in front of the bulldozers – however even they get kidnapped so I imagine the numbers are somewhat lower than they might be.

    Of course many think that Israel has a right to respond in a fairly severe manner since some of its Arab neighbours and many Palestinians don’t believe it has a right to exist. The Palestinians made themselves refugees and many of Arab countries have done little to alleviate their suffering.

    At least Israel targets leaders of Hamas etc instead of random suicide bombings.

    To come back to the “castles in the sky” argument, you avoid the issue of Muslim countries and persecution by saying “there are no true islamic nations”. That wasn’t the point that was raised. The question was about countries governed by Muslims.

    One of your questions was “Why is it that you can’t see Western unilateral intervention causes more problems than it solves?” Erm I think a lot of Westerners do see that. That of course is a question for govts not the plebs.

    As for support of regimes, that comment somewhat smacks of the “America/the West is to blame for everything” attitude that is prevalent among Muslims. Iraq and Saudi Arabia should be a problem that Muslims sort out. Why haven’t they? Why do Sunni (and Shi’ites also) Muslims attack the West for deposing an evil tyrant who oppressed the Sunni majority?

  • pilchard

    Dubious opinion poll? Why? Because you don’t like the conclusions? Have you seen the results and who did the poll? No didn’t think so!

    I find this a lot with Muslims. If something doesn’t fit with their views, they dismiss with some little trick – the words of the leader of BCM are a classic example. Rather than believe Muslims could do something its always the CIA or Mossad. The problem with that it doesn’t pass the test of falsifiability. Thats a bit of Western philosophy for you.

  • Az

    Pilchard – I never evaded, I accepted the failings of the Muslim World. I just asked for an end to the Hypocrisy (particularly prevalent in the neo-con view of the world right now) by accepting the failings of the West. Is that really too much to ask for?

  • az

    How could I see the results when you don’t quote your sources.. I’m assuming that its a You Gov poll – these are notoriously unreliable by polling on the net and use very small sample sizes (the last one I recollect had a sample size of 526). Why don’t you provide me the sample size and question asked?

  • az

    Oh pilchy baby don’t patronise (some more irony for you), Aren’t you so clever that you know about Poppers theory…

  • Az

    Now you are boring me.. So i’ll exercise my perogative to bugger off, maybe catch you later

  • pilchard

    Well I think its very foolish to comment [on that poll] without knowing those facts! Heroic even. It was NOT an internet poll tho, being published in the Guardian AFAIK – so probably by one of the big concerns eg MORI.

    The faults of the Western world are largely those of US foreigh policy, lets be clear – as Britain etc don’t influence these things really if we’re honest. You can’t expect either states or individuals to act out of anything higher than rational self-interest. 9/11 gave the excuse for Iraq and motivated WoT (TM).

    I think many Westerners are very familiar with the faults of the West. Many people decry GWB – its virtually a national sport. I must say I’m pushed to see a direct provocation for 9/11 – or 7/7 for that matter.

  • pilchard

    I expect I’m a darn sight cleverer than you Az based on the level of my highest qualification but who knows? I don’t need to boast.

  • Murtaza

    Assalaam Alaykum. Hi

    Condolences to Muslims on the day which has passed and the one which comes, for what has happened to our beloved Imam and is family on the plains of Kerbala.

    That said, let us return to our discussion:

    fundamentalist muslim an adult muslim woman cannot expose her face and hair to all but fellow women and close family

    Fundementalist? Do you work for the Mail or the Sun? what do you mean to a fundementalist? Is this to say a NORMAL Muslim is a fundementalist. I think you are a little confused by the terminology thrown at you by the media, and I dont blame you. A fundementalist is someone who, when is told not to rely on the TV throws it out a window., but a regular person simply takes what is said with a pinch of salt…

    from the sellers of weapons used by the mobs, the builders who are paid handsome sums to rebuild the perfectly good buildings burnt by mobs to politicians who thrive in a climate of fear and hate and who will only remain in power or gain political advantage when there is unrest and violence

    Ok the trowing-stones sellers and fire-sellers are sure to make a killing.. The builders (Muslim elite??) who are hired to repair buildings… that is just lame. Thats like saying builders in the Tsunami region are blessed to have had Tsunami hit them, and wish they had another… politicians. now theres an interesting one. note politicians are rarely religious leaders, as their name suggests they are more political leaders. so where you point of view is getting to “The Muslim Elite”, i dont know… explain. Also your final Q, what do you mean?

    Mahooba:

    The Islamists are advocating having sex with children as young as 6-9 years old. They also like to amputate lims of disobediant women and stone them to death.

    Where, O where are those “facts” from???? Did you know that If you were to hit your wife, such that if you were holding a book under your arm, and it fell (i.e. ot very hard) you would owe her a Kaffara(debt. monetary..). Also before you say Adultry, Islamically, If a man finds his wife is having an affair, that is not a reason for an immediate Islamic divorce. I am a Shia, there are sects which are very extreme and barbaric. Towards us more than you. So dont just spew out what you werefilled with from Anti-Islam sites / people.. Give me a quote… (prefferably Qur’an, Hadith would require more tiome for me to find…)

    Donkey. The name is showing your behaviour. Feel free to post any reasons for your beliefs..

    Pilchard:

    The two examples just do not equate, and its worrying that you can’t see that. As for the West – thats a term more often used by Islamofascists in fact (illogically – is Australia really in the West?).

    No matter how many times you say it, Islam is against free speech FULL STOP. And its easy to see why.

    Ok, so why not? the ability to drive vs the ability to speak. The ability to drive dangerously vs the ability to speak dangerously (I.E. incite violence – yes it CAN be done through words/mockery). driving dangerously puts you and others in danger. Ask denmark about the bomb threats, and ask their civilinas about it too. point is, although they are not the same it is an analogy, and all break down at some point, so dont get hung up over exact comparison, look at the POINT..

    The West is a word used by the West themselves, rahter than the “More Develloped Countries” or the “First World”. Islamofacists. hehe. thats funny. equating Muslims to Facists..

    Islam is against free spech, you say. Where do you draw that conclusion from? anything to do with Islam itself, or just something you cooked up withh very limited knowledge of the religion?

    passive–aggressive
    Function: adjective
    : being, marked by, or displaying behavior characterized by expression of negative feelings, resentment, and aggression in an unassertive way (as through procrastination, stubbornness, and unwillingness to communicate)

    Im not bothered enough to go and quote examples. aggression in an unassertive way (possibly displayed as a lack of willingness to communicate). I think the context i used it in was OK… why wasnt it. And why do I have probelms with English?

    As for veiled threats (rather than “passive-aggressive” as Murtaza wrongly labelled them), the main aggression on this page comes from those claiming to Muslims (who may in fact be teenagers who’ve read too much Harry Potter cf reference to mud bloods – are we all muggles now we?)

    We mnust be on different pages. The main aggression i saw was from the Pro-free-speechers (yes, not a proper word, but after all we speak a language so taht we can understand one another. did you understand me?)
    There was aggression from Muslims too ( we wont go into their depth of faith/understanding of religion), but it seemed that those threats were more in retalliation to the multitude posted by “Westeners”…

    Your use of the quote is even more inappropriate considering execution by stoning is an accepted means of punishment in some Muslim countries, and a particularly barbaric custom at that.

    Covered earlier. See erarlier for respect to women.
    See Az’s post about Saudi

    You also seem to equate Westerners with Christians by and large – probably because it suits your ideology.

    mm, or maybe because one or two of the major debaters here are using Jesus as an example, since they are Christian, therefore in reply to a post about the attributes of Jesus as a Christian, I used that quote to show that although this is the way of Jesus, This is not necessarily the behavious of Christians. Not every post is deirected to you… Sorry.

    If you want to be brought into the 21st (or even the 20th) I give you a run-down on the neuroanatomy relevant to emotion.

    Yes please…

    If you hadn’t seen the article a simple I havent would have sufficed, no need for sarcasm..

    Yes, it is a choice to be offended over some cartoons. Bereavement is rather different. The emotions one might feel in a certain situation are spontaneous but your actions are completely under your control. You can’t say being offended is an excuse for murder.

    So we agree that these feelings are spontaneous (ie not controlled, simply reactionary. If thats not what you mean since my english is so amazingly terrible, then that is the basis here. These are reactions that we are speaking about) When feelings can be reactionary, actions on these feelings arent? when someone nearly scores at a football match, whether you like football or not, you will say “Oooh”. its a reaction. we are not talking about seperate events here, its one, you actions maybe under your control, but here we reffer to reactions… And although there are some true believers who threatened death, none have done it. Notice that there are, as i said, some sectts who may just go ahead and do it, but these sects also flew two planes on the 11th of September…

    And why, when it has sharia law, isn’t Saudi Arabia a true Islamic nation? Surely it should be top dollar.

    No, Whos Sharia does it follow? Notice that Laws differ within sects, within different Students of Marj’a. So there will be some which will be good to some and others which wont be. one mans food…
    [Addressed by Az. Thanks]

    do they really want to invest more years and pain in dealing with Islam after finally getting Christian dogma off of their backs?

    Just as carrying a Bible in Saudi Arabia is a CRIME, I propose carrying a Koran in Europe should be designated illegal also.

    Just as it is illegal to build Churches in Saudi Arabia, I propose banning the building and operation of Mosques in Europe.

    I believe it was with you that i was talking about freedom and rights, no? what happened? was that a front? OK so, you dont beleieve in free spech, you dont believe in freedom to practice religion, you are pissed taht its illegal to perfom your religious rituals in a country you oudlnt want to go to anyway…
    see Az’s post about Saudi…

    A man that lead armies,

    In arabia at the time, simply it was slay or be slain. caravans were being looted by Meccans who were pised off about the Prophet PBUH’s migration to Medina, so they were looting their caravans. So they faught, and against amazing odds, the Muslims returned victorious. The first Battle The Battle of Badr.
    most Battles were in self-defence. Sidenote, The Crusades. Muslims vs Christians. So were they not Christians? I mean they are not even allowed to defend themselves at a personal level, what were they doing with swords????? And every army in the world.. None Christian? Now If i was to make a judgement on them as Chrisitans, since they say they are, you may say, NO! they arent. But when I say it, it doesnt shake your feelings that it is the fault of the Religion they follow…

    robbed caravans

    We went over this, any evidence for that?

    slandered other Religions

    How so? To him he stated a truth, and it was not such that he simpoly mocked them and called them XYZ, there were many attmepts to talk to Jews, Chritians, etc. BUT there is a fundemental error in that statement:
    We believe taht majority of Religions came about through Prophets PBUT, and so he didn’t slander the religion, he slandered those who were following a deviated version of the religion. Personally, when you have versions of a Holy Book, which was basically accounts from different people, there is an inevitable deviation, since the word will be taken as guideline, so changed to fit the guidline “required”. And also, who is to say if tehre are changes between the “Old” versions and “New” versions. (Not testamnets here.. versions of the biuble itself) Why would a compassionate Lord not send a text that requires changes from people? He would send HIS word, such taht noe should change it…

    taxed those that did not want to convert to Islam and created a State

    So you have a problem with there being a state. and you support “The West”? contradiction. He created a state where there were laws, where tax supported the poor, and the army, which defended the peope, where there could be more trade more easily across the “state”. Where giving to the poos is COMPULSORY. notice the poor today, who gives them a second look. Wouldn’t it be better to have it as a compulsory tax to have to give to the poor than have it as that new years resolution that never happened?

    is not someone I and many others can admire and want to follow.

    1.6 Billion Muslims beg to differ…

    Gandhi is a true man of God, one that many Muslims should more closely examine….but that is their issue.

    Who says we havent. My Imam, Imam Hussain, the grandson of the Prophet PBUH, is a man who the Prophet said “Hussain is from me, and I am from Hussain”. Ghandi said something similar, i.e. Hussain is from us. find out why, what happened..?

    Christianity is based (in modern times anyway) on an individual acting according to his/her conscience. For Islam this is not enough – the Caliphate must be established and laws must be according the Islamic tradition. This means that conflict is completely unavoidable.

    So this means that Christians, since they make rules more on their own conciense need not follow laws etc, if they dont see it fit? But Islam is barbaric, for having Laws? I see not your point. And how do Laws mean taht “conflict is unavoidable”. Then the entire west should be at war too. what are you talking about?

    2) Why should WE (in the West) turn back the clock and have to reinvent the wheel again?

    The main good point about Mohammed is that he liked cats! Not sure about anything else. From my reading I conclude he was not mentally stable

    I though the term “The West” was illogical. anywho.

    He liked cats? Is that why in the religion he preached they are considered to be Najis (Impure)? Where is taht from. and where were you “reading”? I seriopusly doubt it was a very good source, more likely a website, by someone like thea earlier posters who said “Moahmmed was unstable”. thats not reading my friend.

    arguing over subtypes of Islam is splitting hairs

    Very uneducated comment. Some sects are hell-bent on destroying any and everyone who is not Muslim. I don’t, I preffer to teach by bedate, or more by akhlaq (manners), which was the way of the Propeht. Are we still splitting hairs?

    Whatever ethereal desires of ANY religion, non-believers will (and this is a valid viewpoint) judge what the believers do and what the clerics say.

    OK, i dont know what ethereal means, and im not bothered enough to look it up. So you lopok at the people and clerics. Which have you looked at. You have looked at the terrorist, who we have said many times are not Believers, and clerics like The Sun’s Abu Hamza (i call him thiers since he is on the front page everytime i stoop low enough to look at it… ;) )
    What image hav I or Az (If s/he is Muslim) portrayed to you? do I seem to be a disrespectful, ignorant terrorist? And I assure you I am not a Red Herring. Infact it is the Minortiy that makes the loudest noise. If 1.6 Billion Muslims were all terrorists, dont you think there arent quite enough bombs going off?? It seems you Judge with a very very very unfair, restricted and small sample… The same who hit the front pages with an explosion depicted under them…

    Arguing about which form of Islam is correct is a totally different kettle of fish as you should realise. We really shouldn’t get stuck on basics like this surely? This is secondary school stuff.

    Au contraire, You are talking about people who wish to dominate versus people who want to live as you do, and perhaps now and again correct any misconceptions you may have of their religion. I.E. Me vs Bin Laden. would you have this debate with him (going on what the Meida tells us)

    play nicely and your ball doesn’t get taken away.

    A danish newspaper threw thier ball in my face. Is taht nice? ;)

    i know the Prophet thought lying was OK but in the West we consider it wrong.

    This reminds me of a set of cartoons not so long ago. What did you acheive with tha statement? what did it have to do with the Prophet PBUH. What was the “statement” based on? and then you talk about being dull. although im not sure you are the right one to, since you are being thick here.

    PS note, that was a reactionary set of lines. Apologies for any insults you may have taken to heart.

    in which a fair proportion think it is justified to loot, murder, burn on the basis of a few cartoons.

    That over 8 billion people. really? where do you get your wild statements from. Lets try and stay more factual, we discussed WHY they did this earlier. We discussed how the “West” didnt helo the situation. and now we are reversing to WHY again. WHY are we reversing?

    I can say whatever I like, not being a Muslim. This is what I have been told, and if you want to correct me rather than burn my flag please go ahead.

    Last time i checked, I (A Self-proclaimed Muslim) have the rights to say what I want to, so the “, not being a Muslim part of your statement is totally irrelevant (again.).
    This is correct. BUT as we have discussed about 10times now, it isnt about having the rights, its about your usage fo them. rmeber the driving example. USAGE OF RIGHTS. yes, its a different scenario, but the essence of using, or mis-using, your right to drive, which should reult in your loss of them (or restriction) resulting in your restriction of them. You spoke about restrictions being right before, so you cant say that it is unpermissible to restrict rights (As Perry did earlier).

    Vijai, the initial statemnt of your